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Lobbyists push for a rule, legal changes that don't make any sense all the time. No public discourse or debate, especially if snuck in an omnibus bill.

Next spring, I should be asking for netting, spearing, traps, seins, harpoons, snagging on my favorite lake or stream for gamefish to be placed in an omnibus bill making it legal. No public discourse, no debate, just active lobbying with a state rep who is clueless.

Just think of the extra lisc. revenue, inclusivity and diversity it will address, recruit new anglers too! The manufacturers can make a lot more money selling all the new equipment as well.

I don’t hunt for anyone but me. And, I don’t worry about what others want to hunt with. But, the crossbow is going to eliminate the vertical bow at the rate we are going. And, that’s the danger of it. Not its effect on populations.

Make a separate season. Let it run concurrent with bow season if it’s determined to be needed. But, call it some kind of hunting besides bow hunting.

Fixed it for you.

There is a HUGE difference between being able to draw and shoot a trad bow vs. bring proficient enough with it to ethically hunt big game.

IMO, from shooting and hunting with trad bows for over 50 years, and shooting with a hell of a lot of trad shooters at big and small shoots, probably 80% of trad shooters have no business flinging an arrow at an animal. Maybe even more than that.

BUT….

It’s not entirely fair to judge a bowhunter’s skills or ethics based on his performance at a 3D shoot, where he is taking his shots from whatever distance the course-setters have decided is appropriate for sifting the wheat from the chaff and declaring a Winner. Recalling that those stakes are specifically set to make the best shots miss.

And FWIW, the fact that “most” single-string shooters are not performing up to your expectations is not a good and sufficient reason to lower the barrier to entry into the sport for ygem or anyone else. JMO, the good thing about Enlightened Self-Interest is that (just a hunch) if the compound had never been invented, an overwhelming majority of the people who currently hunt Archery seasons would be hunting Firearms, where they might stand a reasonable chance of filling a tag from time to time…

The main reason I take issue with the point raised in the video is that it presupposes that Hunters COMPETE with other Hunters, and THAT is a straight-up Perversion of what (IMHO) Hunting should ever be About.

On the Hunt, we compete against our quarry’s natural defenses; we compete against ourselves to simply Get Better At Hunting. But that’s as far as it should ever go and clearly, the sense of competition goes MUCH further.

Yeah, my sensibilities on the topic were thoroughly warped at an early age by reading A Sand County Almanac when I was probably 12 or 13, but I heard the echos just the other night reading A Thousand Campfires, which is coming up on 40 years old. So maybe I’m an anachronism. I’m FINE with that.

Your own experience with a recurve/longbow is ample evidence that these simpler tools are entirely adequate, and that any shortcomings lie firmly in the hands of the operators.

And FTR…. I have no issue with the use of crossbows by anyone with a physical limitation OTHER THAN physical immaturity. If people want to hunt bow-only areas during firearms seasons, what better solution could there be? But Archery Seasons almost universally confer numerous advantages over firearms seasons BECAUSE of the limitations imposed by the “lesser” weapon. I don’t know that the compound merits the same level of offset that a single-string bow does (and am strongly inclined to say that it does NOT), but the crossbow clearly obliterates that Line.

Earlier someone said “I’m using the same back, shoulder, neck, bicep, forearm muscles for a recurve or compound.”

You might use “the same muscles”, friend, but you sure as hell are NOT doing the same work. And what you ARE doing (with your bow which can be “held” at full draw by resting it on your knee) is HELLA closer to what a crossbow shooter does than to what a stickbow shooter must do.

Here, let me make it easy. You are wussies if do not turn your own cedar shafts from a tree you planted decades prior then using fletching from birds you harvested and stone arrowheads you chipped. Now, the yew long bow needs a string you made. If you draw blood and do not retrieve that deer before any meat spoils then are forever demoted to the other side of the wussie line. No binoculars. No rangefinders. No GOS. No game cameras. No ATVs. Only clothes you made from animal skins or wool you wove. You process the game meat and the internal organs. How many of you make the cut?

Including them in bow season is the number one enemy of bowhunting. Nothing else comes close to reducing the amount of bowhunters.

Inclusion may be a positive for selling tags or increasing harvest numbers and that may be worth it depending on perspective, but its not good for the future of bowhunting.

What rules are not susceptible to being changed by a huge omnibus bill that nobody reads? What committees, biology professionals, wildlife managers, trade groups, non-profits; the general public MUST be involved before a rule change is made?

Timing limits? Last few minutes of a meeting 2:55 AM or during normal, reasonable business hours? Location of public meetings? Spread out or always at the capitol that has limited access or parking, in high crime areas? Rule changes temporary or basically forever?

These are the kinds of issues to be considered otherwise hunting and fishing, and likely many other facets of our life can be changed by politicians, lobbyists or others who don't care or have nefarious intentions. The antis take advantage of these flaws all the time. They actively lobby 24/7, 365. Don't skip out during hunting season.

When I attended public forums, committee meetings, have personal discussions with wildlife managers, DNR representative, local enforcement the comeback is often: "..that rule can only be changed by the legislative process." Uh Huh, well what happens if that process is seriously flawed?

Oh, in case anyone is interested I have also dabbled in making my own bow, arrows, broadheads, clothing, stands; tied flies made decoys and lures, and yes walked or took a bicycle to a hunting or fishing area. Not everyone can or should do this, but cripes we always should have the opportunity to discuss it. Carry on.

the exact same thing can be...and was...said about the advent of the compound bow.

The skill gap between a compound and a crossbow is very small compared to the gap between them and traditional. If one considers a crossbow cheating ("cheating" another competition implication) over a compound then where does baiting fit in? I think a pile of corn lessens the skill of the hunt way more than a crossbow.

As others have stated, only about 20 % or so are serious and good enough to be hunting with traditional equipment. Most are just novelty types.

—Jim

You still have to draw a bow, compound or stick bow. Not so with a crossbow. That’s what really separates them in my mind. It takes experience on when and when not to draw a bow. Totally eliminated with a crossbow.

The inclusion of crossbows for anyone in PA's archery season has made everyone a "bow" hunter. It is what it is and that train has left the station so we are stuck with it here in PA. That doesn't mean that I have to agree with or like any of it, I don't.

If someone other than a legit, medically disabled person can't pull back a vertical bow for whatever the reason then they should not archery hunt. Kids can either wait to archery hunt until they can pull back a bow or they can just gun hunt and I feel the same about seniors. Those are unpopular opinions but they are my opinions and they don't really mean shit to anyone but me.

I will continue to shoot my recurve everyday, hunt with it and kill deer. I will try not to get pissed about things I can't control like the usage of crossbows for everyone in PA's archery season. Life is too short.

Man, you nailed my thoughts exactly! I've said it before and caught backlash for it but that's how I feel too.

It does to me. It's called petty arrogance.

Pat said "show me a compound that is cocked and ready to shoot with a scope ", well I just did. They make magnified scopes for compguns, you use a trigger release and you cock it and hold the 20 lbs until the deer is in shooting distance. What do you think the trophy books would be filled with if recurves and longbows were the only bows allowed during archery season? The size of a "trophy" has bastardized hunting, it's all about the egos of hunters and how great they are killing a big horn/antlered animal, it somehow makes them better. Pick up a recurve or longbow and hunt strictly with that weapon for an entire season and then let's see the pics?

You can use whatever weapon you want as long as it's legal, and for guys who use compounds that are built to make bow hunting easier make fun or criticizing others for the weapon they choose is a joke!!! For all the trophy guys who have shot nothing but a compound, buy a recurve or longbow and practice for next season and see what happens,I'd be willing to bet not one of you will.

It's the DNR that has allowed xbows to shrink the herds so blame them, it's that simple. The nerve of you compound guys bitching about xbow , please.

" And what you ARE doing (with your bow which can be “held” at full draw by resting it on your knee) is HELLA closer to what a crossbow shooter does than to what a stickbow shooter must do."

I know, right!!! I was remembering all times I nestled the stock of my compound against my shoulder, the forearm resting on a tripod or secured to another rock solid mount, fingers wrapped around the pistol grip, peering thru the 6X scope with lighted reticle, range pre-set by the bluetooth range finder, snicking the safety off, squeezing the trigger and collecting the everybody can be a bowhunter participation trophy.

LB,

Been bowhunting PA for forty years. Never saw a draw lok, or scope on a compound. Or mounted to a tripod, like a crew served weapon. And I have yet to see anyone hold their compound at full draw with their knee.

I listed all the differences. You're unwilling to see them. And I know quite a few recurcve shooters that use a sight, clicker, ...

Again for the galatcically obtuse: A xbow, is a stock equipped, shoulder mounted, tripod secured weapon. A compound is not. BTW, the month(s) long seasons we enjoy. Thank us compgunners. We secured it thru the late 70's, 80's and 90's. Ya'll were to busy looking for your arrows to form a homogenous group to accomplish anything. Now that should really get the ball rolling...

And, yes, I've been outspoken about my dislike for baiting in the past. But , as I was sitting in my manufactured tree stand this morning, with my compound bow, range finder, and Swaro binos in hand, I realized how hypocritical it is to complain about baiting.

Matt

I have been an archer/bowhunter since I was old enough to do it. Its awesome and I want to see it thrive. As Pat stated, inclusion is causing dramatic changes to bowhunting. Maybe not individually in a guys back 40 but overall.

I would have rather seen bow season continue to be limited to bows.

JTreeman - it means making a big deal out of what someone is doing that is automatically far superior than what someone else is doing. Kind of like that splinter and moat in the eye analogy...

If you care about the future of bowhunting...it is a VERY big deal! Since the crossbow was legalized in Indiana (by politicians mind you), the majority of our archery shops have closed their doors, membership in the Indiana Bowhunter Association has dwindled substantially and it didn't take long for crossbow harvests to outnumber archery harvests...and it gets worse every year. Bowhunters in Indiana are now a minority in a season specifically created for bowhunting.

My grandson started out deer hunting with a crossbow because he could not pull a legal draw weight for bowhunting. Within a day, he was a better shot with that crossbow than I am after 40+ years of shooting a compound. He killed two bucks the past two years with the crossbow...perfect shots...both deer on the ground within 70 yards.

This year, he wanted to switch to the compound, so I bought him a new bow. He practiced all summer in his backyard and prior to season from a treestand. He would already be tagged out with the crossbow...but has not yet drawn blood with the compound. He's been picked off drawing his bow and missed his only shot to date...at 20 yards. We have one weekend left and I'm really hoping he gets another opportunity. He definitely has experienced the difference in difficulty between that crossbow and his compound. My biggest concern is that he will eventually ask to put down in compound in favor of the crossbow. Fortunately, that hasn't happened yet.

Anyone that actually believes shooting a compound is closer to shooting a crossbow than a recurve probably needs to see a doctor. The physical aspects between a recurve and compound are very similar...just like the physical aspects between shooting a crossbow and a rifle are very similar. Those are facts, not opinions.

To be clear, Don H was up front about his statement only applying to those physically capable of drawing a bow...but choosing the crossbow instead. He's right!!!!

Fir the love of hunting I guess we’re fortunate fir the crossbow. It’s a double edge in the fact it has changed many things drastically.

I am in full agreement of the young buck’s bragging about shooting deer at 60-90 yds with crossbows. They’ll probably never have that feeling of having a monster to close to shoot them. I’ve been there done that. Plus I’ve killed them at a few feet. Those memories and todays memories of my dad still being able to go is what I cherish. Not the head of a monster whitetail on the wall.

Shane

I heard Indiana took away the use of xbows except for elderly and disabled due to the kill numbers skyrocketing, any truth to this?

This year, he wanted to switch to the compound, so I bought him a new bow."

see how that works?

maybe in a few more years hell want to try a recurve...and then maybe a selfbow. arent you just glad hes out there?

im old enough to remember when people were saying the compound was much too efficient and it would be the end of bowhunting. that was about 50 years ago and bowhunting is still going strong

i think you might be surprised. know a number of crossbow hunters that have switched to compounds...including my son in law. i know dozens who started with a compound and have switched to recurves or longbows. i even know a few that hunt with all three depending on what they are hunting...what time of year it is...and where they are hunting. some people just get a kick out of trying anything new. i even know a kid that has taken deer with a crossbow his dad made in hs shop class.

regardless of what chicken little says...the bowhunting sky is not falling.

Take a look at what just happened in Minnesota, it took only three weeks (once legal) for the scope d crossbow kill to overcome the bow kill. Google the article if in doubt.

I bet quite a few. Why don’t you only have bows and arrows?

if we both agree the sky isnt falling...what does it really matter? is anyone telling us we must use a crossbow? we all still have the choice of what we want our challenge to be. i choose a longbow...my son in law chooses a compound (used to use a crossbow)...and my brother in law chooses a crossbow. we all get along just fine.

Crossbow to compound is totally different than compound to trad bow. Heck half the trad bow guys out there use it so they have a built in excuse as to why they can’t kill anything ;)

Well, nope.

“Why have separate seasons, just have one season and use any weapon you choose. I would be fine with that, how about the rest of you ?”

I’m gonna guess that the “One-Percenters” who own or lease large amounts of land would be delighted by that…. and those who work hard on Public will tell you to go sit on a broadhead… Dull one. Probably barbed.

JMO, Hunting is a Wildlife Management tool; seasons and weapons restrictions are Hunter Management tools. The “One Big Season” option (pronounced “Oh, BS”) eliminates a whole raft of tools, so that’s a non-starter.

JMO, the impact of crossbow inclusion has varied from state to state, with the biggest effects where hunting was the worst to begin with. People who are generally pretty happy with the hunting experiences that they have aren’t probably changing their behavior as drastically as in states where archery seasons are 4 or 5 times longer and Shotgun tags (for ONE deer) are by lottery only while Archery tags (for 2 or more deer) are OTC.

Just a guess.

Not sure how the State here would deal with OBS when shotgun tags are rationed out for each unit so as to keep hunter density down to 1 gun for every 20 acres….

are you saying youd be fine with a much shorter...much more crowded season...starting much later in the year?

To answer the 1 season any weapon question... hell no! I love archery season and think it should be longer than other seasons. I also think firearm seasons during the rut is a management mistake, especially in plains states where length of vision can be rather long.

inclusion of crossbows in archery season is the least of our worries (as it pertains to game management) over the next 20 years. in my opinion, you (and others) have a personal animus against crossbows and the people who use them...and you just cant get over it. in all honesty...as a traditional only bowhunter...i used to feel the same way. yes...theyre easier than a compound...and a compound is easier than a recurve...and a recurve is easier than longbow or a self bow...and theyre all more difficult than a gun...and none of them have any bearing on how i choose to hunt.

I do take exception with Higgins’ statement. Labeling and mocking other hunters is bad for us all. I don’t like a bully in any way and that’s what I took from his comment on the clip in the link. Nothing personal John; I appreciate your humor and love your photography.

Was it REALLY that anyone thought that the deer population would suffer, or just that ML season would be ruined for ML hunters?

Up here, ML used to mean flinch-locks and PRB in a season where tags were tightly limited, by lottery only, and prior to Shotgun. I can’t tell you off-hand if smoothbores were also required, but there were plenty of guys willing to shoot a flintlock because the woods were far less crowded and success rates were good.

Post-Inlines, ML tags are unlimited, OTC; the season starts in December after two rounds of shotgun season and the success rate is always under 5%.

So basically, inlines have had zero effect on the deer herd, but a somewhat unique and thoroughly enjoyable public-land hunting opportunity has been completely destroyed. The impact of compounds and crossbows has been pretty much the same on public land archery, no matter what you hunt or where. It’s easy to say it doesn’t matter when you are blissfully unaffected, sitting there on your depredation permit.

If killing animals is all that matters, it doesn’t matter what you kill them with. But Archery & ML seasons were not lobbied for or put in place for the purpose of killing more animals — that’s just what they have spiraled down into.

for the record, i have never hunted with a crossbow in my life. i started hunting with a recurve in in the early 70s...switched to a compound in the 80s and back to a recurves and longbows in the 90s and have been hunting with them ever since.

i just dont happen to see crossbows as the evil boogieman that is going to be the death of bowhunting like some others here.

Colorado, New Mexico, Arizona and Washington allow crossbows during gun season, and during archery for handicapped.

Not a legal archery weapon in Montana.

Wyoming does seem to allow them for elk during archery season.

Canada? Seems to be only for handicapped during archery-only seasons.

I only looked at Maine for Moose and crossbows - it's not legal.

Seems to me - it's probably a matter of time before all big game allows the XBOW to be used during general archery season, but for now it's mainly whitetail deer across North America.

Wyoming doesn’t just seem to allow them during archery season, they do allow them…for all species, not just elk. Been that way for decades.

Since you brought up elk, I’ll give a couple reasons why I would emphatically oppose MB’s suggestion to create a one season/any weapon free-for-all. First off, allowing firearms to be legal state-wide during the rut would be beyond devastating for obvious reasons. On the flip side, having the season outside the rut would end my elk hunting days. As much as I love filling my tag, I love the thrill of calling them in even more. I have zero interest in not being able to chase bugles. Lastly, and probably most importantly, sending in an army of rifle hunters at the same time bowhunters are sneaking through the woods would be a recipe for disaster.

Nope. Only in areas where they can’t kill enough animals.

And Wyoming is onto a very practical (and JMO thoroughly objectionable) solution with allowing landowners to decide for themselves how many cow Elk they oughtta kill every year.

Personally, I figure that private landowners who want to keep everybody else out and keep the animals all to themselves should expect to pay the cost of feeding all of the animals that they’re hoarding whether the animals are eating Hay or Hostas, but that’s just me….

not in my lifetime.

different species are just that...different. different game populations...different hunter densities...different safety concerns.

I have a real nice 7mm that I can use in rifle season and enjoy that as well. I wouldn't want to hunt with my 7mm in archery or muzzle loader season.

I'd rather not see cross bows in archery or inlines in muzzle loader season but that's just my opinion.

Advancements in technology have significantly eroded and fractured hunting culture, tradition, and community. This is exactly what the antihunters want.

Currently there is a rapid decline in the use of hunting camps in the east, especially in areas such as Wisconsin and Michigan. Technology differences is only one factor, but it is a factor in the demise of many camps. I know this first hand. Bow and arrow hunting and the associated culture and tradition is in decline. Have you heard that one before ?

Advancements in technology have significantly eroded and fractured hunting culture, tradition, and community. This is exactly what the antihunters want.

Currently there is a rapid decline in the use of hunting camps in the east, especially in areas such as Wisconsin and Michigan. Technology differences is only one factor, but it is a factor in the demise of many camps. I know this first hand. Bow and arrow hunting and the associated culture and tradition is in decline. Have you heard that one before ?

honestly no.

what does choice of weapon have to do with participation in hunting camps?

baby boomers are aging out...younger people are busier...and many dont choose to spend their limited vacation time at a hunt camp...not to mention that hunting finds itself in competition with a whole host of other recreational activities. when they do decide to go hunting, many prefer to be as efficient with their time as possible...and in many cases that means more efficient weapons.

times change...people change...traditions change...weapons change...and game managers have to change accordingly.

Many landowners are already paying to feed big game. Deer hammer ag crops pretty hard. Many farmers would just as soon not have those losses when it's time to cut beans.

Bow and arrows were never meant to be an efficient weapon. In fact during many archery season conceptions, we were allotted only one deer tag. Bow and arrow hunters chose to be inefficient and hunt the hard way. This had little impact on populations hence the long archery seasons inclusive of vulnerable rutting times.

Thank you for pointing out that today's hunters only want to be more efficient. In other words, they put the quick kill above the actual hunt. I get it.

A lot of ppl, here, on this thread are bitching, moaning and complaining about his statement I don’t have a bitch. I thought his statement was succinct and accurate.

Personally, I don’t think he has helped anyone by dragging a totally unrelated hot-button issue into the conversation. He’s not trying to change any minds, but couldn’t resist an opportunity to play it for laughs…

As MoBreaks pointed out, the original intention behind Archery season was to set aside some low-pressure opportunity for those who just wanted to bowhunt, and were willing to forego the efficiency and the expected success rate of a more modern weapon in exchange for the privilege. If crossbows were consistent with the original Intent, they would have been included from Day One. But they were deliberately and specifically excluded, for Good and Sufficient Reasons. ‘Tis a moot, philosophical debate whether today’s compounds and accessories would have been excluded had they existed at the time, but it requires no extraordinary imaginative capacity to surmise that they would not have been, and for the same reasons that crossbows were.

Why the Crossbow Was Banned by the Catholic Church

As early as the late 1090s the ruling class of western Europe petitioned Pope Urban II to ban the use of the crossbow because of “its brutality in war.” The Pope complied, but the Papal edict did not seem to make much headway then or later; nor did it prevent the merchant guilds in London, Paris, Genoa, and Prague from continuing to manufacture and sell, at a handsome price, thousands of crossbows each year. Further, the fact that the foremost soldier of the age, Richard I of England (The Lionhearted), was an expert with the weapon did little to advance the anticrossbow crusade.

The Church, with the strong encouragement of the European nobility, tried again, if not to completely ban the weapon, then at least to have it pointed at non-Christians. The Second Lateran Council in 1139 decreed that the device was unfit for use by Christians, and that those who used the crossbow against anyone other than infidels (Muslims and heretics) would be placed under penalty of an anathema.

The prohibition was confirmed at the close of the same century by Pope Innocent III. Following the Church’s lead, and citing moral and religious reasons, Conrad III, Duke of Swabia and Holy Roman Emperor (1138-1152), forbade the use of the crossbow in his domains, which at that time meant all of central Europe. But the weapon was so popular on that part of the Continent, especially Bohemia, that the ban had the effect of quickening the spread of its use. Fearing contagion, the English aristocracy also banned the crossbow on religious grounds, but added a twist by giving the prohibition the color of civil law when inserting it into the Magna Carta of 1215.

Link to full article Some interesting history on the crossbow

https://warfarehistorynetwork.com/the-medieval-crossbow-redefining-war-in-the-middle-ages/

first of all...historically speaking bows and arrows were intended to be an efficient weapon...more efficient than what preceded them...like rocks, spears, etc...but thats kind of beside the point in terms of modern hunting seasons.

second...we all still have that choice. nobody has taken that away. if i want to hunt deer with a self bow...cane shoots and knapped tips...wearing nothing but a loin cloth and moccasins...nobody is stopping me...or you.

yes...few people would disagree with that...not me for sure. what is also true is that deer populations then were nowhere near what they are now. we didnt need to kill as many deer then as we do now. in many areas we need to kill more deer in a single season than even existed in a single season back then. back then...they didnt want bowhunters to be too much of an impact. now they need bowhunters to be more of an impact.

people have to realize that the romance and tradition of what bowhunting was "originally meant to be" is a personal thing...and we all have the opportunity to make our personal experience whatever we want. if i want my experience to be just like bowhunting was "originally meant to be...i can do that. nobody is stopping me.

if someone else just wants the most efficient way to put an arrow through a deer...they can to that too. its not like theyre making crossbows legal and all other bows illegal.

game managers have a serious job to do and they will continue to add seasons...methods...weapons and bag limits in order to achieve their goals of properly managing the resource.

romance and tradition aside...that is the reality.

As I have mentioned, current archery seasons have been dumbed way down, very evident on this thread.

I never said that.

what i said was that is the goal for some hunters. for other hunters...its exactly the opposite. the job of the game managers is to allow for the engagement of the most hunters (game management tools) in an attempt to reach their game management goals. like it or not...you see yourself as bow hunter in the way they were "originally meant to be"...whereas the game managers see us all as management tools...regardless of the weapon we choose.

"Stop dodging the question."

what question am i dodging?

if anyone is dodging anything it is you. you are dodging the reality of the situation. you are dodging the reality of what your role is in modern game management.

What question was that again?

Seems to me we did a pretty good job of decimating the game herds long before any state legalized a separate bow and arrow season for non native hunters. Modern archery seasons were created not for game management, but rather as a time for hunters to challenge themselves with LESS efficient weapons which had minimal impacts on game populations.

I think some of you young squirts would do well by studying modern archery history and realizing what you have missed. In the meantime, good luck with your scoped and cocked more efficient bolt machines. Make sure your vice is tight. The rest of you, pick a spot and let an arrow fly. Good times to all.

first of all...to my knowledge nobody ever made that statement.

second...even if they had...the question has already been answered...multiple times.

"Modern archery seasons were created not for game management, but rather as a time for hunters to challenge themselves with LESS efficient weapons which had minimal impacts on game populations.

wrong. that might have been true for the original archery seasons...but that is nowhere close to the truth for "modern archery seasons."

we are in a situation in most areas were more impact is needed...not less.

"I think some of you young squirts would do well by studying modern archery history and realizing what you have missed."

im ceretainly no "young squirt...been bowhunting for close to a half century...but then again...im not the equivalent of the old duffer yelling at kids to keep off his grass.

i suggest you do a little research on "modern wildlife management." it just might open your eyes to how game departments are trying to manage wildlife in the 21st century.

i dont know about wisconsin but isnt cwd a large part of a deliberate attempt to reduce overall deer numbers? i know it is here in michigan. whether we like it or not...the bloated deer herds of the 80s 90s and early 2000s are a thing of the past and the game departments have every intention of making sure they dont return...and if it takes expanded seasons weapons and methods...that is what they are going to do.

its a lot more complicated than just just to words but in a nutshell i think you answered your own question. lol

in order to kill more...the stakeholders (management tools)...as well as their weapon preferences... have to be taken into consideration.

what do you attribute that to?

in the up of michigan a harsh winter or two can decimate the deer herd for a decade or more. it sure isnt the crossbows.

Spoken like a True Blue Conservative. Good to know that you believe that laws should be freely modified to suit the preferences of the majority, who just don’t want to have to work that hard.

And FWIW, in the ‘20s and ‘30s, western deer herds were so large that there wasn’t “enough” grass for the sheep and cattle to eat. In the early ‘50s, a Colorado deer license was good for 2 of each sex. Just sayin’…. This is a big-ass country we live in, and if you don’t appreciate regional differences, you really oughtta stop and listen a minute, or maybe do a little research on your own.

Either way, in places like, oh, the entire Atlantic region, there could be a 6-month season for fully automatic weapons and it would not achieve the herd reduction objectives of the state wildlife managers. Ever. Hell, they could legalize helicopter gun ships and it wouldn’t make a dent. Because (just in case you haven’t noticed) reducing the deer population is not exactly a high priority on all of that private land on the other side of the PRIVATE PROPERTY - NO HUNTING signs. You know — the non-agricultural land with all of the deer-specific, monoculture food plots which have been put in to MAXIMIZE the growth of the resident herds?

It’s pretty simple, no matter where you go — there is no surplus of big game anywhere in this country on Public land, and there is no weapon system effective enough to kill animals where they don’t exist, or where there is no interest in killing them.

And gutting the entire purpose of ML and Archery seasons (HUNTER management) in a 100% foreseeably futile effort to address a WILDLIFE management problem is the epitome of Stupid.

...and spoken like a true blue liberal lefty. a total misrepresentation of what someone else said.

what i said was that laws should be modified to achieve the goals of the game managers...and the preferences of the stakeholders should be taken into consideration. that would include all stakeholders...not just one group. not just the bowhunting should be hard group...and not just the most efficient way to put an arrow through a deer group.

nice try...but you should really brush up on your reading skills.

in my opinion, what truly is the "epitome of stupid" is thinking that one person cant pursue their idea of bowhunting if at the same time someone else decides to pursue something different.

like i said before, i'm old enough to remember when the exact same things that are being said about crossbows were also said about compounds...just as vehemently and just as passionately. "compounds arent real bows"..."compounds are machines"..."compounds are for people looking for the easy way out"..."i can become proficient enough with a compound to kill a deer in an afternoon"..."too many deer will be killed and it will result in shorter seasons"...blah...blah...blah. yet here we are...the only real risk we have is that not enough young people are taking it up...regardless of the type of bow.

and the reason for that is pretty simple also. for the most part...public land is not the most optimal habitat and unless deer are severely overpopulated everywhere else...they have little reason to be there. deer will always gravitate to the best habitat with the least amount of pressure...and that is usually private land...regardless of what weapon the hunters are carrying.

Which is why I mentioned that helicopter gunships won’t get herds down to management objectives while private landowners continue to protect and propagate “their” herds…

So the point is that trashing the hunting experience on Public land will NEVER achieve the harvest objectives — it just makes Public land hunting SUCK even worse, prompting more and more Public Land Hunters to buy up Private and start farming their own herds.

So REALLY, if the managers in the deer-surplus states had any sense, they would stop degrading the experience of the specialty seasons (on Public) and go to a choose-your-weapon system so that more hunters could enjoy a higher quality experience. Then they need to ban baiting on public land entirely, and also at least on Private, at least within some reasonable distance from publicly hunted areas, so as to prevent public-land deer being drawn off into Private for the duration of the season. (How screwed up is THAT?) Frankly, I’d like to see ALL baiting banned, because I don’t believe that it works out in actual practice AT ALL as it was intended…

Then the states just need to provide either incentives for non-hunting landowners to open up their land to some reasonable amount of hunting, and/or some kind of penalty for those who are actively contributing to the overpopulation problem… like banning the feeding of wildlife and getting food plots legally classified as Feeding….. since that’s what it IS….

It’s either that or wait for some clever lawyer to file a civil suit against a deer farmer for having created a public nuisance by artificially elevating the deer density, thereby causing their client’s grievous injuries or wrongful death.

nobody ever disputed that...and why would you want or need to "combat that fact?"

you hunt any way you want within the law...and the next guy will hunt any way he wants within the law...and we all live happily ever after.

seems pretty simple.

But the facts are .....like it or not, their here to stay, so ya best just get over it & you do you & accept that others are gonna do as they please within the legal law.

couldnt agree more.

if i could add one more thing it would be that wildlife departments have a job to do and while we might not like it...dwindling hunter numbers...fewer and fewer young people taking up bowhunting...and more and more recreational choices to choose from...they are going to do what they have to do to attract as many participants as possible.

if you think about it...in a healthy size deer herd that is appropriate for the habitat...somewhere between a quarter and a third of the deer have to die every year in order to keep the status quo. that is a pretty daunting task in terms of getting enough participants to participate...helping them be successful...getting them to kill enough does...and attempting to keep all the warring factions happy.

Unfortunately, that wasn't the mindset the inclusion advocates had when they fought hard to change bow season into something different to create a demand that didnt exist yet for a product.

same here....its even tougher when you have no let-off. lol

back in the day...archery shops had to adapt and start carrying compounds or they went out of business.

now they have to adapt and start carrying crossbows.

pretty sure lancaster sells everything and they are doing fine.

We are the ones to blame for not getting political active with the ramifications of what the x-gun factor will do. Of course the NRA did a run around to the Wi. bow hunters with Politicians getting it in following the bow season.

Would have been very simple by making bow hunting fingers on the string and we wouldn't be done this road.

Enjoy the hunt.

...so was the compound.

" just waiting to hit the western states and it will be a lottery to bow hunt on public land."

if the wildlife departments are doing their jobs...they will not allow a weapon that will adversely affect the resource. it's really that simple. those decisions should be based on what is happening on the ground there. whats right for michigan may or may not be right for montana. whats right for texas may or may not be right for wisconsin. hell whats right for southern lower michigan isnt always right for northern lower michigan...and certainly not for the up.

I feel sorry at times for hunters who have always done things the easiest way possible. Most of them don’t know what they’re missing.

Now, the market may have a much lighter xbow trigger out there but, if not, I'm more accurate with my compound out to 30. And I am no Robin Hood.

I also recognize my buying habits made the xbow inevitable. Chasing the newest, lightest, highest let-off, easiest tuning bows, highest vis. fiber optic (lit) pins, hair trigger release aids, etc. - it's just hypocritical to cry now.

As timex mentioned, I can only speak for the Commonwealth of VA. Every state can decide for itself and draw tag states may do well to exclude them. Of course, they would probably do well to cap compound performance capabilities, as well. But that is a topic for another day.

its interesting that you bring up fred bear. in reality...fred bear didnt really want anything to do with the compound...other than to profit from where he saw the market moving. he didnt shoot one...he didnt like shooting them...and to my knowledge never once killed an animal with one. fred did embrace new technology though...and he was all about introducing as many new people as possible to archery and bowhunting. he didnt have to personally like something in order to see its benefits or potential.

interestingly enough...fred bear parted ways with his original bowyer (nels grumley) because nels didnt like the direction archery was going. grumley believed that each bow should be hand made and not mass produced in a factory setting. basically...grumley didnt think that was the way things were "meant to be."

just goes to show you that every time advances are made...someone or some group is going think its not the way things were "meant to be."

time marches on...

hey...wait a minute. are you saying the deer might actually still be there on public land...and maybe they havent all been killed by those lazy crossbow hunters that never venture beyond the sight of their truck? lol

I’ve often wondered if shoulder injuries and crossbows are a chicken in the egg thing.

Do people carry crossbows because they’ve got sore shoulders that are broken down or did they get sore wrecked shoulders from lugging those monstrous contraptions around

CWD is more apparent in older age class deer because they have more chances of getting it. It's almost like mercury in older fish. Where CWD is around, the older a deer is, the higher the likelihood it has CWD. So the state wants to reduce average age to reduce number of deer that have CWD. It's not ACTUALLY about what constitutes archery and what doesn't. Or so the theory goes anyways...

I did 8 months of rigorous PT this past spring and summer, then dialed a compound down to 52 pounds, so I could hunt with a bow this year. Or I could have gone down to Wal Mart and bought a crossbow, sighted it in, and been good to go. From what I experienced this year in WY, it appeared many did just that. I could have killed a great bull I called straight in that never gave me the opportunity to draw my bow. With a crossbow, automatic.

Even the crossbow hunter camped near me at one spot was complaining about it, and he finally got frustrated and decided to wait until rifle season to keep hunting.

I can't speak to the Midwest, but where I hunt in WY, crossbows have certainly had a detrimental effect on the quality of the bowhunting experience, in a relatively short time.

Hunting with a crossbow was never going to be an option for me and it never will be. I'll either learn to shoot with a mouth tab or quit bow hunting and gun hunt if I can't pull a bow back.

Crossbows are here to stay in PA archery season but that doesn't mean I have to like it or use one.

The Director of MNDNR stated this year as the x-gun became inclusive that it will bring more gun hunters into the so called bow deer bow season and that is a whole different mentality coming into a bow hunt. Bowhunting doesn't need more people it just needs better hunters.

Have no problem with physical disabled x-gun users but a healthy person is just another slob that bow hunting doesn't need, I'll stand by this.

HunterR's assessment of eastern hunter mentality is spot on, the Wisconsin forum will prove that fact.

Overall changes will need to be made to have quality experiences in those settings.

When it comes to western species, mule deer, elk, pronghorn I believe crossbows have absolutely no place in archery season. For all but the severely disabled. They just change the game too much

2013 Total 342,631 Gun 225,003

2014 Total 304,294 Gun 222,588

2022 Total 349,874 Gun 251,425

2013 Bow 87,628 CB 0

2014 Bow 54,815 CB 26,891

2022 Bow 38,017 CB 60,432

Read from it what you want but it's pretty apparent that the total number of harvest has stayed about the same, total number of gun harvest has stayed about the same, and the total number of archery harvests has stayed about the same. The biggest shifts are as compound hunter harvests drop, crossbow harvests go up. It's not rifle hunters stepping into archery via crossbow, it's compounder's. To me it's not surprising that a group of people who had been using the easiest possible weapon available... took advantage of the next easiest possible weapon. No clue if these numbers holds true out west as I don't think any other state took the trouble to keep records and publish data. It sounds like a completely different can of worms out there though.

"Read from it what you want but it's pretty apparent that the total number of harvest has stayed about the same, total number of gun harvest has stayed about the same, and the total number of archery harvests has stayed about the same."

"Crossbows are here to stay in PA archery season but that doesn't mean I have to like it or use one."

if crossbows arent your thing...dont use one. if they arent putting any more pressure on the resource than "real bows" what difference does it make?

"The addition of crossbows to archery is having the desired effect. Lowering the age class of deer. Triples the number of "archery" hunters out there with essentially 70 yard rifles. Combined with trail cameras more trophies get shot. More trophies get shot, average age class decreases. Why is this the goal you ask?

CWD is more apparent in older age class deer because they have more chances of getting it. It's almost like mercury in older fish. Where CWD is around, the older a deer is, the higher the likelihood it has CWD. So the state wants to reduce average age to reduce number of deer that have CWD. It's not ACTUALLY about what constitutes archery and what doesn't. Or so the theory goes anyways..."

if this is the case...isnt this proper deer management? isnt this what is best for the resource long term? or are we just worried that some yahoo with a crossbow might whack a shooter buck before one of us purists get a crack at him.

How do you sync that program with your beliefs today regarding crossbows and the benefits to kids? $1,500 dollar crossbow gear required just to get started.

The “disabled only” entry path of crossbows used by manufacturers and state agencies has worked almost every time. Pulling on our heartstrings for disabled with the ultimate goal of “full inclusion”. It’s all ways about the money and in this case the money for manufacturers and state agencies. If crossbows were limited to gun seasons they would sell 7 per year. I get it.

There is now a nationwide record book for crossbows named “Bolt & Quarel”. This eliminates any calls for inclusion in P&Y Record book. Great solution to a problem that didn’t exist.

Here's the link I was looking at. Graphs make the trends easy to see. It's harvested data though, and not actual number of hunters. Gun and Total numbers are pretty much a flat line, Bow is declining, while Crossbow is inclining. https://apps.dnr.wi.gov/deermetrics/DeerStats.aspx

michigan reached its peak in the late 90s when bow hunters harvested more than 150000 deer...in 2022 it was about 95000...in 2023 it looks like it will be even less.

crossbows became legal in michigan for all hunters in 2009. the numbers just dont match the hype.

Ruined is a strong word for it, but depending on how much or how little public land you have to work with….

But the people who don’t understand the differences between states where the wildlife biologists are desperate to reduce their deer herds and states where they are contemplating ever more drastic measures to keep the hunting pressure under control… you guys need to get out more.

The good news is that states which are already rationing tags are not really likely to go looking for ways to make those tags even harder to come by, though I don’t know what they’re thinking In Wyoming…. Maybe they responding to the demands of wealthy, non-hunting property owners who feel that they’re being overrun by Elk?

come on...lets get real. like them or hate them...crossbows are not guns. they meet the definition of a bow. they do not meet the definition of a gun.

bow: a weapon that is used to propel an arrow and that is made of a strip of flexible material (such as wood) with a cord connecting the two ends and holding the strip bent

gun: a weapon incorporating a metal tube from which bullets, shells, or other missiles are propelled by explosive force, typically making a characteristic loud, sharp noise.

Fast forward to today and tags for Nonresidents are limited to 3000 a year. NGPC has came out and said that when harvest is down they will reduce tags. When harvest is up they will increase tags. On its face that sounds like sound management practices. However how many archers loose out on obtaining a tag because a crossbow user bought a tag.

When it comes to public lands in Nebraska. It is ranked 48th for total public land acres. The only 2 states that are worse are Kansas at 49 (they also allow crossbows in the archery season and nonresident tags are limited) and Rhode Island at 50. Before tags were limited in Nebraska the amount of pressure the public’s lands seen skyrocketed.

. Back then I grew to love bow hunting simply because there wasn’t a lot of people doing it and it was easier to gain access to land.

If there comes a day and I can’t draw a bow I will pick up a crossbow.

I still think crossbows in the Midwest anyway should have been limited to those that can’t draw adequate weight to hunt with

“However how many archers loose out on obtaining a tag because a crossbow user bought a tag[?]”

“Before tags were limited in Nebraska the amount of pressure the public’s lands seen skyrocketed.”

“Back then I grew to love bow hunting simply because there wasn’t a lot of people doing it and it was easier to gain access to land.”

So now the Compound shooters are seeing the same problem that long-time single-string shooters have been talking about for 30 years, but when it’s Compound vs Crossbow, it’s somehow a whole other argument???

Separate item: “When it comes to public lands in Nebraska. It is ranked 48th for total public land acres. “

Lies, Damn Lies, And Statistics, dude….

True, the data I found say that NE is 97.2% private vs 93.8% in CT.

But NE is 77.8k square miles. CT is a hair over 5,000. NE has 1.9M people; CT has 3.6.

So that’s (round figures) 2100 sq mi of Public vs 311, so 7X the acres for a little over half as many people. And we haven’t even considered what % of the Public (OR Private) land is at all open to hunting of any kind…

So, Grand Scheme— Even if 3 times as many people are hunting (percentage-wise)… you’ve got some real blessings to count.

id be willing to bet the same is true for those that switched from compound to crossbow.

sure...you got people on youtube shooting 70 and 80 yards...and we all "know a guy" that claims to have shot one at 100 yards but you have that with comounders too. at the end of the day whether its a compound or crossbow its still a 40 yard and closer game...often much closer...for 95% of the hunters out there.

I didn’t call you a liar. But you did make a wildly inaccurate assertion. If you want to make a claim based on data, you have to make it in such a way that you can’t be blown out of the water so easily…..

that sounds like the opposite of sound management practices to me. seems to me when harvest is down they would increase tags...and when harvest is up, they would reduce tags.

What are the wounding rates on crossbows, compounds, longbows, recurves, rifles in Kansas. I had no idea that those statistics even existed How are those numbers collected? Do Kansas hunters have to fill out a form or call in post hunt

Show me one crossbow hunter who did 8 months of PT-rehab in order to be able to cock and pull the trigger on a crossbow, and I'll concede your point.

The act of drawing, anchoring, and releasing an accurate arrow from a bow when the animal is in range, vs. simply putting crosshairs on the animal, resting on shooting sticks, and squeezing a trigger. That is the difference. A crossbow is simply a short range rifle. Not "archery".

apparently the point i was trying to make went right over your head. i was referring to how people hunt, not what brought them to weapon they chose. thats why i underlined the portion i did.

"And I hunt the same exact way I always did.

i still maintain that "at the end of the day whether its a compound or crossbow its still a 40 yard and closer game...often much closer...for 95% of the hunters out there."

guys who insist on ethical shots do so regardless of the weapon in their hands. guys who take "hail mary" shots do the same...whether they have a traditional bow...a compound...a crossbow...or a rifle in their hand.

the fact that you did pt fo 8 months is great...but completely irrelevant to the point i was making.

You missed the point I was trying to make - that a crossbow is not archery, and doesnt require even a fraction of the effort to operate compared to a compound. "Ethics" and "capability" are entirely unrelated concepts. Crossbows are marketed as "100 yard" weapons. How many crossbow shooters with so-called "bad shoulders" are willing to put in the effort to get treatment, do PT or have surgery to recover and shoot a hand-drawn bow? They don't, because a crossbow is faster, easier, and supremely accurate.

The only thing a crossbow has in common with a bow, compared to a rifle, is that the crossbow projectile is made of carbon and steel instead of lead and copper. And the idea that scoped crossbows with 100 yard trajectory compensating reticles shooting a bolt 400 fps are 40 yard weapons is a reach.

I have no problem whatsoever with someone using a crossbow during firearms season. I just don't want them further crowding public land and competing with bowhunters for archery tags, and pretending it is "bowhunting".

no...you most certainly dont "get it." thats obvious.

that makes as much sense as saying you have no problem with the elderly and disabled using a .300 win mag during bow season.

what part of the difference between the way a firearm propels a bullet and the way a bow propels and arrow dont you get?

if a crossbow meets the definition of a "bow" when it comes to the elderly and the handicapped it meets the definition of a "bow"...period.

you cant have it both ways.

"The only thing a crossbow has in common with a bow, compared to a rifle, is that the crossbow projectile is made of carbon and steel instead of lead and copper."

...and that whole thing about bent limbs and a string propelling an arrow...and an explosion propelling a bullet....and the fact that one projectile is traveling at 300-400 fps and the other is traveling at 2500-3000 fps...and one kills by hemorrage and the other kills by shock. yeah...other that that theyre exactly the same. lol

by the way...modern compound bows are more than capable of killing deer at 100 yards...just like a crossbow.

Of course it wouldn't bother me if a disabled person used a crossbow or to be honest, a 300 win mag if truly disabled.

The problem is the "disabled" part was abused but ends up a moot point because the big impact is that it was/is just a stepping stone to full inclusion.

Crossbows don't usually equal more success, just easier access to what was bow season. They are very different weapons. Yes, there are people who can be effective at 100 yards with a compound. Guess what guys dedicated like that could accomplish with a crossbow? But, the capability of a crossbow isn't the issue since most users aren't approaching it that way. It is simply the ease of access to bow season that is damaging bowhunting. That's the similarity to a 300 win mag that matters.

no irony at all.

first of all...the two conversations are not related in any way. most peoples brains are capable of contemplating a variety of different topics concurrently.

second...ive never advocated for crossbows...im just not threatened by them. ive never hunted with one...and god willing i will never need to.

Stats on the cripple rate? Where are those recorded

Yea I know I kill stray dogs

Stay on topic

so are you saying its a hunter failure and not the fault of the weapon? if so i agree. .

it only stands to reason that if more people are using crossbows overall...there are going to be more deer wounded with crossbows. its a simple mathematic equation. for example 5% of 100k is a lot more than 5% of 50k.

more deer are wounded with rifles than bows every year...by far.

I believe a compounder can pick up a crossbow and be proficient in a very short amount of time, a complete newbie is going to take much less time to learn the crossbow than the compound, and most rifle hunters are completely disappointed after buying a crossbow and hunting 2 seasons with it (I've known this to happen many times. Their crossbow ends up on craigslist... much like their treadmill.).

not sure what you mean by "more deadly" as dead is dead...but i think youre making my point. "a competent successful vertical bow hunter" is going to stay within his capabilities...no matter what weapon he is using.

thats why i said earlier that 95% of the people who switched from compound to crossbow arent flinging arrows at deer at 100 yards. They are hunting the same way they did...and at the same ranges...they did with a compound.

the notion that if you put a crossbow in a competent...ethical...bowhunters hands hes all of a sudden going to become a different kind of hunter is foolish.

there are incompetent idiots carrying all kinds of bows...traditional...compound...and crossbow. thats just the reality of the situation.

License year 2008-2009 (~225,000 archery licenses) archery buck kill: 31,550 or 25% of total harvest. Approximately 14% of bowhunters filled their buck tag.

License year 2009-2010 (277,600 archery licenses) archery buck kill: 33,400 or 31% of total buck kill. Approximately 12% of bowhunters filled their buck tag.

License year 2022-2023 (336,000 archery licenses) archery buck kill: 75,700 or 46% of total buck kill. Approximately 23% of bowhunters filled their buck tag.

Ya, xbows are exactly like compounds.

Ya, xbows are exactly like compounds"

raw numbers might not tell the whole story. they are meaningless unless and until you apply them to what the game department wants to accomplish.

according to the attached link...more deer were killed in pa in 2000 than in 2022 (504k vs 435k). point being...if the hunters still arent killing as many deer as the game managers want killed...the weapon breakdown isnt that important.

Instead of trying to be the smartest guy in the room, howzabout listening to those of us that actually LIVE and HUNT in PA. In 2002 point restrictions were implemented. The total buck kill dropped significantly. From roughly ~170K to a little over ~100K. It has been steadly increasing and the archery harvest is now just a few percentage points lower than the buck kill. Also, total number of hunters has dropped from roughly 1.1 million to ~840,000. Number of reasons for that.

Herd management was not why xbows were implemented. $$'s were. As early as 2006, UBP was told by members of the PGC board & PA state legislature that xbows were a done. THAT was after extensive lobbying from the xbow industry. PA has(had) the largest (market) number of archery hunters. You can continue your side step, bravo sierra, whatever you want to call it, if xbows were the same as compounds we would have seen proportional increase in the buck harvest. That was not the case.

Mapleman, one buck per license year, regardless of weapon. Two (or more depending on WMU) doe. Not weapon dependent.

I'll turn this back over to the smartest guy on the Bowsite.

Ever since in-lines came on the scene, PA flintlockers (myself included) have fought to keep our late season (2-1/2 weeks starting 12/26) in-line free. Aside from the special regs areas, we've been successful. And yeah we here the whining that their scoped (shooting MOA) single shot rifles are the same as a flintlock cuz, well, it loads from the front.

it would only truly be "proportional" if successful crossbow hunters only came from the successful compound hunter ranks. thats not the case. many first time bowhunters are choosing to start with crossbows. some will cross over and go back and forth...even within the same season. same is true for compound and traditional bows. its never as easy as the figures on a page tend to suggest.

lets assume you are right and crossbows are so much easier to be successful with than compounds. and even with them being legal...not enough deer are being taken in many areas. had they not become legal...do you think that would have helped or hurt management goals?

youre right, i dont hunt in pa but i have bow hunted in mi for close to 50 years and our deer hunting numbers as well as our bowhunting heritage...passions...challenges...and regulations are about as close as they are going to get. pa isnt that unique.

its not about being the smartest guy in the room...its about being willing to question conventional wisdom...even our own.

being a traditional only bowhunter...10-15 years ago i despised even the thought of crossbows being allowed in archery season...for all the reasons people are stating now. now that they are here...i dont see where they affect my bowhunting experience in any way.

I don’t need to assume anything. The data is right there. While we had what, a 30-40% increase in bowhunters, we’ve doubled the buck harvest in the same time period. Prior to 2009 the archery buck kill was in the low to mid 30,000 range. It’s doubled.

Whatever dude, you still wanna come across as the smartest guy in the room. Carry on.

The xbow is a shoulder mounted, TRIPOD SECURED weapon. Ya, it shoots a broadhead tipped arrow. THAT'S where any similarities end.

You have zero intention of being curious. Zero. Hence your desire to have the last word evidenced by the trans-swimmer thread. So here ya go. Prove me wrong. Got a Grant riding I'm right.

is the increase in buck harvest sustainable? are your buck numbers plummeting with the increase of bow hunters?

talk about "side step bravo sierra..."

can you show me where ive ever said "theres no difference between xbows and compounds?"

its statements like this that make everything you say suspect. either you arent capable of comprehending what someone actually says...or you have no problem lying in order to make a point. take your pick...

I do comprehend. Quite well thank you. And I have zero need to lie to prove a point. None. Especially to a full blown narcissist that has some deep rooted need to bloviate and convince everyone he’s da big brain.

You’re not curious. At all. Just argumentative. As most threads show. Now if you’ll excuse me, this automation engineer needs to sort thru some hi speed vision data. If I need help, at least I know where to seek help.

I was gonna say… LOL

That has certainly been my impression at the ranges here, but at least they do permit you to shoot off-hand. I’ve been to a few ranges which would not allow off-hand shooting at all.

“BTW, if I can ever get to shoot that hawkens accurate again, I sure will.”

Try a ghost ring, and (perish the thought!!) you might need a fiber-optic front…. I have seen tall, buckhorn sights reshaped as ghost rings…

But let’s not oversimplify… There are “muzzleloaders” which use what is essentially a .410 blank shotshell and only the (saboted) bullet loads from the front. There are smokeless “muzzleloaders” which are the ballistic equivalent of bottle-necked centerfire cartridges. And scopes over 1X are a game-changer, conferring literally superhuman vision…. The CO MLA has fought hard to preserve the original intention of the season since there was fiery debate over whether TC “Hawken” rifles were sufficiently period-correct to be authorized for use…. As things stand, with loose powder and a full-bore projectile, an inline is still hideous… but it’s essentially the functional/ballistic equivalent of a period-correct or even an original conical-shooting caplock from the end of the ML era….

You can’t say that about a scoped “bow” which is so heavy that people use force- multiplying pulley systems or hand-cranked (or even electric) winches to draw the damn things….

Sure, they’re the same.

then why do you (and others) accuse people of saying things they never said? such as...

"theres no difference between xbows and compounds?""

or why do you continue to side step legitimate questions" such as...

"is the increase in buck harvest...that you suggest is due to crossbows... sustainable?"

"are your buck numbers plummeting with the increase of crossbow hunters?"

can you think of any other weapons that utilize this technology in order to draw and hold them at full draw? :)

Not that you’ll find in my house, no…..

If you’re expecting me to leap to the defense of compounds, you’re even more clueless than I thought….. but there’s a difference between let-off and force multiplication. And if you want to argue that, you’ll have to do do having conceded that the holding weight of a #40, 85% let-off compound is literally INFINITELY higher than that of a crossbow.

And last time I checked, compounds hitting in excess of #200 were kinda hard to come by. Interesting that most of the crossbows in my Lancaster catalog don’t even LIST a draw weight…. Kinda makes a guy wonder what they’re hiding from whom…

for the most part...same is true here in michigan. despite added seasons...added weapons...expanded ages...expanded bag limit...etc....over all deer harvest has remained about the same over the last couple decades...if anything it has has fallen. overall hunter numbers have fallen in virtually every category.

as i said before...the raw numbers dont show everything (they tend to show the "what" but not the "why")...but they do show that many of the original fears of crossbow inclusion have not come to pass.

"Do not limit yourselves to the eastern whitetail mentality. There is a much greater picture than the diseased, overpopulated whitetail herd found in much of the east. Much greater."

Diseased? Other than some EHD outbreaks from time to time, i believe far less diseased deer in the East, as there is little to no CWD as seen in the West. What disease are you referring to?

From what I see, the deer in NJ are extremely healthy both sexes, and there are good genetics here to grow record size bucks with ease. What we lack is hunter restraint on young bucks and let them get some age on them.... That problem exists in most eastern states. (if one of your stated goals is to take a mature animal with bow).

For several reasons, I hope scoped crossbows do not expand in the west.

It would be better for bowhunting and bow hunters if it were limited to bows but that's no longer the case. I do hope that folks have some line in weapon technology that they think is too far.

For me and my personal approach, that line is well behind modern compounds. The stuff that's hard about bowhunting is the key to the stuff that makes bow hunting and bow seasons great. Be careful when constantly chipping away at the foundation of your house.

As far as crossbows being "archery" call it whatever you want it's all about semantics, I use mine during the crossbow season and that's what I call it, a crossbow being used during crossbow season, again, there was no full inclusion in Wisconsin. Every time I register a deer I'm asked whether I harvested it with a gun, a bow, or a crossbow. Clearly separate.

In regards to maple's question, I switched from a recurve to a compound many years ago because it was more accurate and I had less of a chance of wounding deer. Also, I have other things in my life that "make me a man" other than hoping I kill a deer without wounding too many with an archaic tool just to prove some stupid point at the expense of a suffering animal. I 100% agree with the above post where someone said 80% of the guys flinging arrows at deer with a recurve or longbow are not proficient enough to be doing it, I've seen the same thing more times than I care to admit.

IMO, there’s a pretty obvious place to draw the line when it comes to which weapons belong in bow season. Too bad I couldn’t be dictator - just for a day :)

No, you switched because YOU were more accurate WITH the compound, and rather than accepting your own limitations with the recurve, you found a way around them.

It’s not a Bow Thing; it’s a User Thing. And by and large it’s exactly the same proposition when a Compound shooter picks up a Crossbow for reasons other than significant physical limitations.

It’s not a Bow Thing; it’s a User Thing. And by and large it’s exactly the same proposition when a Compound shooter picks up a Crossbow for reasons other than significant physical limitations."

is that a bad thing? i happen to admire people who recognize their limitations and do the ethical thing within the law.

That doesn’t automatically entitle them to participation in a season which was specifically set aside for the weapon which they abandoned.

In most states, Crossbows were specifically prohibited during Archery Seasons for good and sufficient reasons. Namely, the fact that crossbows are NOT Archery equipment as the term/concept was understood at the time.

And frankly, had the Compound existed in its current form at the time when Archery seasons were first carved out, I have trouble believing that the same people who rejected crossbows as “archery” would not likewise recognize that the Compound is a different animal entirely. Call me crazy.

And frankly, had the Compound existed in its current form at the time when Archery seasons were first carved out, I have trouble believing that the same people who rejected crossbows as “archery” would not likewise recognize that the Compound is a different animal entirely. Call me crazy.

i dont think you are crazy...you are right.

there actually were people saying the same things about compounds that they are now saying about crossbows. actually...there are a lot of people who are still saying that...just spend some time over on the leatherwall and other traditional archery forums.

so are you saying that compounds...in their current form...should not be allowed in archery seasons either? or are you saying that thoughts change...weapons change...tactics change...hunters change...management needs and regulations change...and in spite of it all...bowhunting is a alive and well?

personally, no. if youre referring to the air guns that shoot arrows...they dont meet the definition of a bow.

bow. a weapon for shooting arrows, typically made of a curved piece of wood whose ends are joined by a taut string.

like it or not...even the most hi-tech crossbow meet that definition.

other than the fact that you dont think a crossbow is a bow...and you seem to be personally offended by those who hunt with them...how does someone hunting with a crossbow personally affect your bowhunting experience? be specific please...

i can totally understand why you dont want to answer the question. you know as well as i do that your "real fact" isnt relevant to whether bowhunting in general is alive and well.

there are a whole lot of people that dont think compounds are real bows...that is a "real fact."

based on that...there was a time when bowhunters who used what they thought were real bows was on the decline...and bowhunters who use compound devices was on the increase. that is also a "real fact."

many people thought the increase in the use of compound devices was going to be the end of bowhunting. that is a "real fact."

most people agree...that even though those things were all factual...the doomsayers were wrong in terms of how they would affect bowhunting in general.

thats also a "real fact."

how long have you been bow hunting? the reason i ask is simple...do you realize how many trad guys said (and still say) that exact same thing about compounds?

That is a whole lot more accurate statement if your context it the compounds that were out there in the range of 35-50 years ago, when round-wheel bows had trouble cracking 200 fps with a hunting-weight aluminum arrow like a 2117 and everyone hunted with fingers because releases were illegal to hunt with in a great many states… Let-off was 50%, right? And guys here shooting 85% let-off talk about getting tired holding at full draw….. Optical rangefinders were slow, clumsy, and not all that accurate. I recall Randy Ulmer stating that he thought a maximum “ethical” shot distance for archery was about 35 yards under favorable conditions….

So at the time, you’re correct— the overall experience of shooting a compound was not altogether different from any other bow, and there was also the weight, bulk, and number of Things To Go Wrong as trade-offs…

But Compounds Evolved….

regarding evolution...p&y used to have a limit of 65% let-off for inclusion in their record books. i dont think it was until 2007 where higher let-off bows were allowed. to my knowledge i dont think any battery operated sights are allowed by p&y.

yes...things evolve. the nice thing is we are all allowed to jump off the evolution train wherever we want.

But you’ve made my point for me. “Evolution was not in the question” — Nope, and it seems clear that no-one FORESAW the compound — likely because it was understood that Archery Seasons were being instituted for essentially backward-looking reasons.

No denying that they define bowhunting now. They will for a long time. They may not define what was bow season much longer.

That’s extremely well put. (As much as I wish it weren’t so!)

They will. There isn't any new bow technology replacing them. Crossbows are replacing them and redefining the season, but they arent bows and thats not bowhunting.

no...that is an opinion...not a "fact."

what are actual facts is that a crossbow meets the definition of a bow...

bow

a weapon for shooting arrows, typically made of a curved piece of wood whose ends are joined by a taut string.

...and a crossbow bolt meets the definition of an arrow...

arrow

a shaft sharpened at the front and with feathers or vanes at the back, shot from a bow as a weapon or for sport.

...and each individual game department determines what bows and what arrows can be used in their bow (archery) seasons.

those are "real facts."

no matter how many times you state your opinions as facts...it doesnt make them so.

Call a crossbow a bow if you want

Just don’t say anywhere near the same talent, skill, commitment, practice, training, is needed by the user to become proficient with it.

true that...

it is said that "everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." (even if they call them "real facts"...lol)

some people apparently have a hard time differentiating between the two.

Just don’t say anywhere near the same talent, skill, commitment, practice, training, is needed by the user to become proficient with it."

im not aware of anyone that said there was.

the same thing can be said for traditional bows and compound bows.

choices...

"there are a whole lot of people that dont think compounds are real bows...that is a "real fact"

"many people thought the increase in the use of compound devices was going to be the end of bowhunting. that is a "real fact.""

The only fact in those statements is that others have opinions. Leave it up to Ricky to call opinions of others facts. But that's Ricky for ya. He conflates when it suits him. Throw them stones Ricky LMAO.

Crossbows shouldn't be in archery season. The biggest disadvantage a true bowhunter has is drawing the bow when game is within range. Visually and auditorily. Crossbow hunters don't have that issue and we all know it's a big advantage. That's the difference and they share that advantage with firearms. Crossbows belong in firearms season.

Many people on this thread think Ricky is an argumentative ahole...that's a real fact. Some people think Ricky is a bigot...real fact. See how that works Ricky.

and leave it up to you to completely misrepresent (or completely misunderstand) what was said. i never said those opinions were facts...i said it was a fact that many people have those opinions.

either your intellectual dishonesty is legendary or your ignorance is. i suspect its a combination of both but i dont know that to be a fact.

"Many people on this thread think Ricky is an argumentative ahole...that's a real fact. Some people think Ricky is a bigot...real fact. See how that works Ricky."

i do. and i agree that some people have those opinions...and they are more than welcome to have them.

the things i said were facts...are indeed factual. you cant refute those things so instead you make personal attacks on me.

by all means, show me something that I stated as fact that is not factual and ill be happy to discuss it...but i wont hold my breath.

"Conflation is the merging of two or more sets of information, texts, ideas or opinions into one, often in error. Conflation is defined as 'fusing blending', but is often used colloquially as ‘being equal to’ - treating two similar but disparate concepts as the same."

Actually, no. For many game departments it was a consensus of opinions codified into law, hence legal. Doesn’t make it a fact, just within what is a legal means for taking wildlife.

In 1858 the consensus of opinion, therefor legal, was that blacks were 3/5 of a person. Didn’t make it a fact, just legal.

Wyobull, Ricky claims his posts are driven by curiosity which is bullshit. He’s an attention seeking narcissist with a deep rooted need to have the last word. Look at any thread that he squats in.

youre as intellectually dishonest (or just plain ignorant) as ksflatlander. who ever said that? certainly not me.

nice try though.

And many others here

i agree with you for the most part. i wouldnt go so far as to say its "not important"...but its no more important than any other recreational activity we engage in.

for some people its gone way beyond that...its not something they do...its who they are. its become a religion. when someone disagrees with them it is taken as an attack on their religion. they dont see differences of opinion as something to be discussed...they see them as something that must be defeated or silenced.

you are either a bowhunter like them... or you are an infidel.

i agree...especially in terms of long term consequences. makes hunting with a crossbow seem like small potatoes. if some in government get their way...many here will be begging to hunt with any weapon...even a crossbow.

you do realize thats how conversations work...right? somebody says something...somebody responds...somebody says something else...and somebody responds again.

ive never even suggested that anyone isnt or shouldnt be entitled to their opinion...whether or not they agree with me. quite the opposite actually.

not only am i open to opposing opinions...im open to changing my own opinion when im shown to be wrong. ironically, that very thing happened on the crossbow issue.

seems to me that the true narcissist would be the one engaging in personal attacks...attempting to silence those that disagree with them...and shut down conversation they dont happen to like.

After inclusion: "Geeze guys settle down and quit griping about your season. Live and let live. What a bunch of busy bodies."

im not sure ive seen anyone say that...but if thats the way you interpreted it...i guess it is what it is.

what ive seen is basically seen is "show me."

has the inclusion of crossbows resulted in substantially more people in the woods during the archery seasons? has it resulted in substantially more game being taken during archery season? has it resulted in the shortening of archery seasons? has it resulted in an adverse affect on the resource itself.

as to "griping about your season"...thats been going on for as long as ive been bow hunting (never with a crossbow by the way)...and thats been close to 50 years.

seems to me that the people that get it done every year...still manage to get it done regardless. those who "gripe" about their seasons...always seem to have something to gripe about...and its been going on long before crossbow inclusion.

they cant shoot a big buck because their neighbor is baiting...my neighbors food plots are pulling all the deer...all the good hunting land is getting leased...people are shooting all the bucks before they get big enough...all the good bucks are being shot because of trail cams...all the big bucks are being shot at night by poachers...public land is too crowded because of youtube influencers...people are shooting too many does...people arent shooting enough does...my neighbor is hunting too close to the property line...kids (or their dads) are killing all the good bucks during youth season...youth gun season before archery season is making all the good bucks nocturnal...the wolves are killing all the deer...the coyotes are killing all the deer...the amish are killing all the deer...and last but not least...the crossbows are ruining everything.

there is never a shortage of reasons why someone isnt shooting the caliber of buck they think they deserve...but those reasons seldom point inward.

You missed a few that always make me laugh; My boss made me work. My wife wouldn't let me go hunting. My in-laws made me do something for them. The public parking lot had too many trucks. I saw a guy with a crossbow and had to go home and cry. (ok, I made up that last one but the rest are true)

this has the makings of a fun thread...you should start it.

all the reasons why my bow season sucked...that had nothing to do with me. :)

It has resulted in substantially more people besides bowhunters in the woods during what was bow season. It has resulted in substantially more game being taken by nonbowhunters during what was bow season. I dont think it has resulted in shorter seasons or an adverse effect on the resource. Although more capable, most users have similar success as bowhunters. It has reduced bowhunting numbers.

Long story short. Crossbows may be fun, good for hunting and good for archery season license sales in some places but including them in what was bow season detracts from bowhunting overall as a sport/activity/lifestyle. Does it matter individually if a guy climbs a tree in his back 40 acres carrying a bow vs a crossbow? Not really. His success or lack of would likely be similar with either weapon or an open sighted handgun or flintlock. The reasons bow season would have been better left to bows are bigger than what happens under one tree in the back 40.

My opposition to inclusion isn't about crossbows. It's about bowhunting.

aside from the word games being played regarding what you believe are "bowhunters"....

are there more hunters in the woods during archery season...all weapons (traditional bows...compound bows...crossbows) combined?

is more game being taken during archery season...all weapons (traditional bows...compound bows...crossbows) combined?

that hasnt happened in michigan either. overall numbers of bowhunters (traditional bows...compound bows...crossbows) has stayed the same or dropped slightly since inclusion in 2009. this would suggest what catscratch said is accurate. while the percentage of bowhunters using a crossbow has increased...they dont appear to be new hunters...just converts from the existing bowhunter ranks.

that brings up another question.

if so many bowhunters are switching from traditional bows and compound bows to crossbows...what does that really say about what the majority of bowhunters think? and what does that mean for game departments who are trying desperately to maintain overall hunter numbers?

if it was simply a matter of crossbow manufacturers greasing the palms of legislators that drove the rule change...why have so many "real bowhunters" given up their "real bows" and switched to "xguns?" were the crossbow manufacturers greasing the palms of the hunters too? were they giving the crossbows away? did the game departments make crossbows mandatory?

at the end of the day...you can change the rule...but in order for a large percentage of the existing bowhunters to drop hundreds or thousands of dollars to re-tool...it must be something they actually want to do.

Why have they become so common? Easy. Compounders have always chosen the easiest things available; releases, corn, range finders, adjustable sites, outfitters, leases, mechanicals, cell cams, pop-up blinds, Sitka, etc. When an easy button pops up they slam it. Crossbows are just the next easy button. Plus, just like compounders did for decades... new hunters are going for the easiest to start with which is now the crossbow instead of the compound.

I see no way to take it back. I suspect game departments would rather change seasons, numbers of permits, and limits to NR's than to restrict an already established weapon.

if thats the case...why do you suppose so many switched?

I think what would be really interesting is to be able to really dig deep into the data...but im not sure its available or even possible.

for example...its easy to say that the overall bowhunter numbers havent changed but the crossbow numbers have risen dramatically so it must be trad and compound hunters switching to the crossbow.

sounds legit...except for the fact that it doesnt take into consideration the thousands of bowhunters that age out...die...or just stop hunting every year...and how many of those are replaced by new hunters which have only ever chosen the crossbow.

thats why i said before...the raw numbers tell a story...but its not always the whole story...or an accurate story. correlation isnt always causation.

"I see no way to take it back. I suspect game departments would rather change seasons, numbers of permits, and limits to NR's than to restrict an already established weapon."

i agree with you on the "no way to take it back"...but from the game departments viewpoint...why would they want to? they have enough trouble in most areas just keeping hunter numbers from falling. i'm not aware of any risk of seasons or tags being cut...again in most areas its the opposite.

granted...in limited tag areas...there might be more competition for available tags but do we know whether that is a matter of crossbow inclusion...or is it just a matter of certain areas becoming more popular...for a variety of reasons...including but not limited to social media sites like the one we are posting on.

ill guarantee you that there are many people who have decided to do hunts that they never even considered before...had it not been for reading about them here. i know ive done it myself. how many others can say the same...if theyre being honest.

I said exactly why I think they switched in my previous post. It's the same easy button as bait, compounds, range finders, mechanicals, etc.

"I think what would be really interesting is to be able to really dig deep into the data...but im not sure its available or even possible."

Wisconsin has some data to dig through. It's not perfect but it's all we have.

"sounds legit...except for the fact that it doesnt take into consideration the thousands of bowhunters that age out...die...or just stop hunting every year...and how many of those are replaced by new hunters which have only ever chosen the crossbow."

I addressed that in the post above also and it is considered. I think for many decades most new hunters have picked and started on the easiest equipment available. That is now the crossbow.

i just dont know how to reconcile these two statements.

"I think the vast majority of compounders did not want crossbow inclusion."

"I said exactly why I think they switched in my previous post. It's the same easy button as bait, compounds, range finders, mechanicals, etc."

if the majority of compound hunters didnt really want inclusion...why would they then switch to something they didnt want...even if it was easier?

not saying it's not the case...just seems kind of hypocritical to me.

do you see what im getting at?

all i know is im glad im not the one in charge of making the decision for anyone other than myself. damned if you do...damned if you dont.

2014 Wisconsin had 54,815 vertical bow harvests, and 26,891 crossbow harvests.

So you guys saying that in any average single season approximately 33% of bowhunters retire out and are replaced by crossbow hunters (who all harvested deer on their first year of hunting). It just doesn't seem like a sustainable or realistic scenario to me. But, I've been wrong plenty of times before. I just don't see 27,000 bow hunters ageing out and being replaced by new crossbow hunters. And if they came from the rifle hunters, then why aren't those numbers going down much? I suppose you could say that compound hunters are switching to rifle hunting in huge numbers and at the same time rifle hunters are retiring out in huge numbers. That would make the data work as well as vert guys switching to crossbows.

Ricky, I stand by my views. Is it hypocritical for a man to be against inclusion but later switch to a crossbow? In my mind yes. Does that mean it doesn't or didn't happen? Of course not. From personal experience I see it all the time where someone was against something but eventually accepted it.

I also saw a ton of rifle hunters buy crossbows the first year or two of full inclusion, only to sell them later. They thought it would be fun to hunt the rut but didn't have the mindset or skills to get within 40yds and make a good shot. Just too different of a hunting style and kill mechanism than they were used to. Most wounded several deer, were disappointed and frustrated, then went back to rifle hunting solely.

I wish KS would go back to a weapon specific tag instead of it's any-season tags.

im not doubting your views...just clarifying what your opinion is. i dont know the answer...thats why im asking.

if...as the others say...its all new bowhunters that are starting with crossbows...and not converts from other bows...the next questions would be...are the game departments simply giving the new generation of bowhunters what they want...and if they didnt allow crossbows...would bowhunter numbers be dropping even more than they are now?

I know plenty of people that switched from a compound to a crossbow so they now harvest and register deer with crossbows and not compounds. It only makes sense that when this happens and as it continues to happen the crossbow deer harvest will grow while the compound/recurve/longbow harvest will drop, I bet a lot like the longbow/recurve harvest dropped and the compound harvest increased when compounds came out. Why this is a drama inducing the sky is falling whine-fest to a small group of haters makes no sense to most people, including those that make the rules. The crossbow hunter haters would be better off if they came up with a new whine-point, and the often used "crossgunners are killing all the good bucks and thare aint none left for me to kill" also is laughable at best, at least in Wisconsin anyway. I do not speak for anywhere but Wisconsin, where most areas are way over goal not to mentioned as someone previously said the majority of the deer herd in Wisconsin is diseased with CWD. I live and hunt in one of the most southern counties in the state, and I do get all the bucks I harvest tested and in the past few years 50% of the bucks I have harvested have tested positive for CWD. Of course these are usually older bucks and CWD is known to be more prevalent in bucks than does and the older the deer the more likely they might have the disease. Unless the crossbow hunter hater whiners can find a more believable reason to whine no one of any importance is going to listen, it all just sounds like the old dude yelling at the neighbor kids to get off his lawn, but in this case, no one is really on his lawn in the first place.

Live2hunt most folks I know that hunt with a crossbow have a back-up as a lot of these new crossbows like to spontaneously explode, some have a back-up crossbow and some only have 1 crossbow and have their compounds as a back-up. Maybe that's what you saw when you were peeping through someone's truck window. Although I could be the only one wondering, what are you doing peering into other people's vehicles to see what they have in them?

I've explained this to you multiple times, either you don't want to understand or you have no short term memory, but I'll try again; I hunt to hunt, not only for the kill. I use a crossbow, a compound, or a gun, depending on the day and the season. Also, and the most important thanks to whiners like yourself; When I use a crossbow, I am hunting in the crossbow season, which as you know, is separate from the bow season, and I say I am using a crossbow, during the crossbow season. Do you really expect me or anyone else to call it a crossgun or a bolt rifle or a string rifle or any of the other imaginary made up words?

thats true...but it also doesnt say it cant be shoulder fired...nor does it say a bow must be held vertically...drawn and held by hand at full draw...cant have a trigger...cant have a scope...etc.

the definition is actually pretty clear...

bow: a weapon that is used to propel an arrow and that is made of a strip of flexible material (such as wood) with a cord connecting the two ends and holding the strip bent

first youd have to show that the opportunities are being lost specifically to people using crossbows.

in limited tag areas...theres only so many tags to apply for...whether or not you shoot a trad bow...a compound bow...or a crossbow.

if theres 100 tags per year and 300 applicants your odds are the same whether they all shoot longbows....they all shoot compound...or they all shoot crossbows...or any combination of the three.

if every applicant shoots a crossbow youre going to draw a tag about every third year... if every applicant shoots a compound...youre still only going to get a tag about every third year.

Youd have to show that inclusion of the crossbow is the only reason there is increased interest in a certain species/area...and to my knowledge that hasnt been shown.

archery: the art, practice, or skill of shooting with bow and arrow

and before you ask...

bowhunting (or bow hunting): the practice of hunting game animals by archery.

:)

nope...thats it. that was from wikipedia. above is another one if didnt like the first one.

do you have one you like better?

a crossbow bolt meets the definition of an arrow.

arrow: a shaft sharpened at the front and with feathers or vanes at the back, shot from a bow as a weapon or for sport.

"xgun" is a made up word so i guess you can make up any definition youd like.

:)

youre welcome to play word games all night but at the end of the day...the only definition that matters is the one that game departments use regarding what defines a legal weapon for use in archery seasons.

Pathetic boys, truly pathetic

Carry on with your weapons wars.

When you come off of public hunting and there is another public land user exiting with his or her crossbow in hand, do you approach them and spend any time chewing their ass out for ruining your sport and Bowhunting in general or do you just leave ?

When you are at your local archery store and someone is buying a crossbow do you casually say, thanks for ruining archery as we know it?

Or is your outrage just keyboard stuff?

It's totally understandable why someone would use one. There's a new generation that never knew archery season without them being legal. Being upset with people choosing the easiest path would be futile and nonsensical. Easy will always be a popular path. That's human nature. I would ask them how their hunt went, share any helpful info I had and wish them good luck.

I have had some spirited discussions with folks who pushed to get them included in bow seasons. I worked in the archery industry in the '90s when the crossbow segment was just gaining ground. The main debate among the big players in the industry was whether their effect would be a stepping stone to get folks into bowhunting or whether they would end up decreasing bowhunting numbers.

i guess the answer to that question would all depend on what you consider "bowhunting numbers.

to me...anyone who participates in the archery season...using any legal weapon allowed in that season...is a bowhunter.

in that case..."bowhunting numbers in most areas appear to be just treading water...at best.

HunterR, think about it, please. Do you type/talk before thinking about it? Did they just allow xguns for all or has it been a few years?

Wolves are a big problem, but the xguns kind of put the kibosh on it from what I have seen.

Not many xgunners this year where I was because baiting was illegal, to little to late.

No issues with bowhunters prior to xguns here in WI. I have seen and heard a lot of excuses for going with an xgun, most is my arm/shoulder/hand hurts, LOL. No it is because you want to use and easy killing machine that operates like a gun to make the kill easier.

Again, this site is about bowhunters/bow shooters shooting and hunting with bows and arrows. Why do you seem so surprised when you get flack for coming on here pumping xguns? Why do you think Pat does not allow adds for them, nor has a section for them? They are not bow hunting, get it, Hello!!!!

has the inclusion of crossbows in archery season resulted in less tags being issued...more applicants for the available tags...or some combination of both?

if in fact there is more competition for available tags...what evidence is there that would indicate the increase in applications are due to crossbow inclusion and not just increased interest due to other factors?

Allowing crossbows into archery season for all will have negative impacts on the deer herd. You can't make the hole in the bucket bigger without the bucket draining faster.

i hear that a lot but i keep asking for the data that shows it. in many areas, crossbows have been legal for all for well over a decade now. in michigan it has been since 2009...yet there has been no "negative affects on the deer herd" that im awar of...at least not in terms of over harvest.

overall bowhunter numbers as well as overall harvest numbers have remained about the same if not fallen slightly since crossbow inclusion.

is it different in your state or there another "negative affect on the deer herd" that you are referring to?

Screw the skewed data crap Ricky, go out in the public woods and see for yourself like the rest of us.

the hole in the bucket analogy would be a good one...if the hole was getting bigger. unfortunately the hole is the same size...if not smaller.

"Screw the skewed data crap Ricky, go out in the public woods and see for yourself like the rest of us."

so now my data is skewed? what are you basing your opinion on? if my data is crap...why dont you show us better data...instead of just your personal anecdotal evidence...which really only means that you apparently have a hard time finding deer to shoot.

for your information...i hunt both private and public every year. i suspect the fact that you cant seem to find a deer to shoot has very little...if anything...to do with crossbows.

youre from wisconsin right?

from what I can tell... in wisconsin crossbows became legal for everyone in 2013. according the your stats...which im sure youll say are crap...not only has the deer population been steadily growing...the overall deer harvest has remained virtually the same since about 2009...long before crossbow inclusion.

Ricky, again with the charts and data from the DNR? I am a licensed xgun user. I am in those stat's. I do not and will not use one. I am not the only one. Deer population growing? Yes I agree, in the Southern farm/own to hunt/leased lands. Populations not growing and are depleting/not rebuilding on the large tracks, 1000's of acres, of public forest. So, those numbers are DNR propaganda to promote more license sales.

Well that's terrible, I hope you corrected all those people and taught them all about the word crossgun. Actually I never said a crossbow is equal to a compound bow, they are not equal, much like a compound isn't equal to a recurve, and a recurve isn't equal to a longbow either. When it comes to deer hunting most people think of it as a hunt that is done with either a bow or a gun. Sorry but that's just the truth. No one expects people to say recurve bow or longbow or compound bow, so expecting everyone to know all the butthurt they might cause a few of you if they don't detail it is expecting a bit much imo. Come to think of it I often hear people say they were gun hunting when in reality they might have been using a rifle, or a handgun, or a shotgun, or a muzzleloader. Clearly all those folks probably were embarrassed and trying to hide something too.

So, live2hunt, I'll try to respond, but in all honesty it's hard to follow that word salad of a post you made, clearly someone is all excited. ;-)

So, are wolves the problem or crossbows? You do know that when you continually take the focus off of wolves to try to blame it on crossbows (because a crossbow apparently beat you up in grade school) that does downplay the wolf issue possibly persuading people to think it's really not that bad. Assuming you hunt (or try to hunt) in wolf country that probably isn't helping your situation.

Also, I did not come here pumping crossbows, I came here to post the truth about Wisconsin as you and another poster or 2 make it seem like it's a deer-less wasteland devoid of deer with an unhuntable population. Any of that sound familiar? Truth be told as you know but can't admit hunters are killing deer and nice deer at that in almost every county in Wisconsin, and a lot of those deer are coming from public lands, in the same counties you say are almost deer-less. Following facebook for a season including just this past season you would see exactly what I'm talking about, tons of people are getting it done. A guy can actually put in some effort and try or give up, cry, and blame it on the rest of the world.

I guess I missed it if someone was giving me flack, my point was people like yourself who constantly bash other hunters while at the same time saying hunters should stick together should really step back and...think things through.

of course youre in those stats...they are inclusive of all weapons. the point is...crossbows...no matter how much you despise them...are not having an adverse affect on the deer herd. I get that you might not be happy about what you are seeing on the exact spot you happen to be hunting but unfortunately the DNR doesnt manage a herd by stand sites.

as to you being a "licensed xgun user"...why? why are you buying a crossbow license? cant you just buy an archery license?

just because it's included in the package, that doesnt mean you have to use it...right? do you use every other tag provided by the patrons license? if not...do you ask them to take off all the particular tags you dont use?

you realize that if you dont happen use the crossbow tag... that wouldnt make any difference in terms of overall deer harvest numbers... right?

and that if many of you that purchase the patrons license dont actually hunt with the crossbow...the published crossbow hunter numbers might actually be higher than the actual number of crossbow hunters...making their use not as high as what you might think...right?

you seem to be so angry about crossbow inclusion that it affects your ability to think clearly.

i cant stand pickled beets. cant stand how they look...cant stand how the smell...cant stand how they taste. i even question the sanity of anyone that would eat a pickled beet.

even so...it seems every salad bar i ever go to has those damn pickled beets sitting there. should i just not put any pickled beets on my salad...or should i demand the restaurant take the price of them off my bill?

I disagree that "the majority" in Wisconsin did not want crossbows. Back when all this took place I seem to remember to put it in general terms; A small group of loud whiners that had trouble forming complete sentences and could not control their emotions that were against crossbows, a larger group that were not having emotional outbursts that were for crossbows, and everybody else didn't care one way or the other.

"of course there are deer killed on public, as long as people hunt it there will be,"

I agree, as long as people hunt public in Wisconsin there will be deer killed, and hopefully you agree that if there were no deer there they couldn't be killed.

Yes, yes he is.

maybe i am...please clue me in.

if the cost of the things you like to do purchased separately add up to more than the cost of the patrons license...its probably a good value for you. if the cost of the things you like to do purchased separately add up to less than the patrons license...its probably better to purchase them separately.

just because i purchase a patrons license...that doesnt mean im a crossbow hunter...any more than it means i fish for sturgeon.

just because i purchase the salad bar that includes pickled beets...that doesnt mean i have to eat the pickled beets.

what am i missing?

ok...

"So what's wrong with sturgeon fishing and beets?"

not a thing...i just dont happen to have any interest in them...

...nor am i offended that they are included in the price...

...nor would i ask that they be removed...

...and im sure not concerned that ill be labeled a beet eater or a sturgeon fisherman.

that might be...but its also irrelevant (at least to my feeble mind...lol) to the overall harvest numbers...and whether or not crossbows are having an adverse affect on the deer herd...which is what brought the topic of the patrons license up.

maybe you should go back and re-read what was said...and then we can see what went over whos head.

you can start with this statement by live2hunt...

"Ricky, again with the charts and data from the DNR? I am a licensed xgun user. I am in those stat's. I do not and will not use one. I am not the only one."

to which i replied...

"of course youre in those stats...they are inclusive of all weapons. the point is...crossbows...no matter how much you despise them...are not having an adverse affect on the deer herd."

lastly...if this went over my head...apparently im not the only one...

"Not sure how to word this without being rude......not my intent, just an observation.

Your having an issue with how your hunting license is worded and somehow "in your mind" connects you to the xbow is a bit out there .........SERIOUSLY, your despise of the xbow is so extreme that your gonna spend extra $$$ to not have the word on a piece of paper or an all inclusive license in your wallet,,,,, sorry brother thats"""OUT THERE"""

carry on bro...

Yes, I do despise what was done to a great sport and way of life with Archery and Archery hunting. It is also sad that many put there bows down and quit bowhunting to use these things and think they are a bowhunter. Bowhunting with a bow takes a learned skill this is why they allowed the longer seasons and time period. Again, if compounds were as easy as using an xgun, why are we having this discussion? Why do we have xguns during the archery seasons? They have to be a nightmare for law enforcement for poaching because now they are legal for all to have in your car.

Because I am not a xgun user and will never be I do not want to have my name associated with them. Out there, maybe, maybe not that is my opinion. I can go on and on, deep inside you know what I am saying about these, you just want to justify your using them. What sucks is I am getting to the years of retirement and looked forward to having more time to chase deer, other critters, birds and fish. But because of what has happened in the past 10 years, deer hunting is not what I had before. There is not enough time in a season to get onto quality deer hunting on the public forests. If anything it is the enjoyment of being out there and stump shooting. If you want to loose an hour of your life watch the video attached of hunting Northern WI public lands. This is the same as all forest areas I have been. Oh, they do get shooting with there ML's

Even if the crossbow season was shortened to the month of October which you mentioned before, it would still be taking place during the archery season and I believe you'd still whine and complain. Although, the ship sailed long ago when it comes to shortening the crossbow season in Wisconsin, that is something else that most of us know, have known for years, and have come to terms with.

not necessarily. your patron license also shows "archery license"...correct? unless you actually report that your kill was from a crossbow...why would they assume your kill was tagged with your crossbow license and not your archery license. why wouldnt your patron license increase the regular archery kill percentage?

either way...it has no bearing on overall deer harvest numbers...which includes all weapons.

"Because I am not a xgun user and will never be I do not want to have my name associated with them. Out there, maybe, maybe not that is my opinion."

your name is no more associated with crossbow hunting than my name is associated with eating beets from the salad bar. thats just nutty...that is my opinion.

Missouri, of course you think that, you have your private deer farms to hunt. Sad thing is, at this point the damage is done from wolves added pressure and harvest with xguns, etc. They could have a year long season or they may as well call it a deer season any weapon. Oh, and to piss the private land owners off, your able to hunt all property's, LOL. Lets event the playing field out, LOL. Actually, I would rather hunt large forests for little than a prison of land for more.

yes...it sinks in quite well. if anyone is missing anything it appears to be you. your absolute disdain for crossbows has blinded you to common sense.

if you dont purchase an optional crossbow stamp...that is a dang good indication to the DNR that your not a crossbow hunter. furthermore...if you harvest a deer and you report it as an archery kill...thats also a dang good indication that you didnt use a crossbow.

sounds to me that you are not happy with your hunting experience and you are lashing out and blaming anything (crossbows mainly...but apparently wolves also) other than the actual culprit.

Ricky, listen, read, I did inadvertently buy an xgun stamp when I purchased my patrons license because it came with it and I cannot refuse it, I have tried. If I do not buy the patrons and buy separate archery license I do not have to get the xgun stamp then I would not be part of the xgun licensees. What the?

ok...youre right. youve convinced me. let it be known that from this point forward...i will continue to not use a crossbow during bow season... like i never have...or any other season for that matter...unless i become physically unable the hunt with the same traditional equipment that i have exclusively been hunting with for decades...and i still have a desire to bow hunt.

heck...ill even call the weapon that i have never used...or likely ever will use a "xgun" if that makes you happy.

who says debates on bowsite cant change minds?

:)

live2hunt the crossbow season will not be shortened, it's too bad someone talked you into believing that it possibly would when it was created. The separate part means nothing and meant nothing the day it was created. You should be mad at those that lied to you and made you believe that it might be shortened not the folks that simply are partaking in a completely legal sport.

Your "kill percentage per weapon equals season length" also will not happen and I really don't think you'd like it if it did because believe me a whole lot of people would lobby that the compound season should be shorter than the recurve/longbow season too if that was the case. I think that would backfire on you if you really thought it through.

Once again, crossbow users don't have the "whole archery season to use them" they are used in the crossbow season. When you really think about it the separate season pretty much backfired on the whiners because all it really shows is that the overall deer kill is still under goal and it shows that a lot of compound users switched to crossbows, just like a lot of recurve and long bow users switched to compounds back when compounds came out.

And also once again, way more hunters wanted crossbows in Wisconsin than ones that didn't which as others are trying to tell you that is why they are so popular. I know many people that switched to crossbows and wound less deer than they did with compounds, I say good for them a hunter is a hunter in my eyes, as long as they're following the law.

I don't think the majority of hunters in Wisconsin are that dumb, but unfortunately the dumbest are usually the loudest. A lot of hunters were for crossbows which is why so many people are using them. The dumbest also are not good at presenting their case or controlling their emotions, or for that matter they're not really good at talking to the correct people in the correct manner to make things happen. That is why Wisconsin has the crossbow season that it has, that is why so many hunters take part in it, and the majority of people are completely fine with it.

Also I could be mistaken but I don't think there are actually stamps in Wisconsin, I believe it simply is a word or 2 printed on a persons license along with many other words. It's not even a separate piece of paper, simply, a couple of words. I think RTCG's salad bar example is spot on.

you crack me up. just last week i was accused of being a right wing extremist...fox news propagandist... trump loving bigot...(among other things...lol)...now im an "ultra liberal democrat?"

see...youve changed my mind again.

from this day forward...i will never vote for a democrat...local ...state...or national.

oh wait...i never have voted for a democrat...local...state...or national...not even once.

bless your heart...

:)

oh wait...i never have voted for a democrat...local...state...or national...not even once."

The definition of a "low information voter" LMAO

says the guy who claims a vote for biden was a vote "for the constitution."

i sure hope youre more accurate with your bow than you are with your snipes.

"LMAO" is right. you literally cant make this stuff up.

yep...that is in fact your opinion. its also a fact that in your opinion a vote for biden was a vote "for the constitution."

that speaks volumes about the value of your opinion.

now...do you have an opinion on crossbows or are you just here to snipe?

i dont think youve ever mentioned it...at least not that ive noticed.

:)