So why do some bow hunters think they need the firearm season as well?
I dont want to do it at all ............. but I see nothing wrong with it if someone chooses to use a shorter range weapon during gun season .
Do you feel that everyone should be required to use a modern scope sighted ,rifled barrel ,slug gun during shotgun season or is it OK to use a hawken style muzzle loader shooting patched round balls and real black powder. Maybe they should be restricted to the 4 days of muzzleloader season .
???????????
AND since everyone would be able to hunt with whatever they want & they would also demand the free-for-all season to be in the heart of the rut ( of course), it would take about 2 weeks to kill over 200,000 deer in IL.
My point = BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU WISH FOR !
In over 50 years of IL deerhunting, IL's 6-7 days of regular firearm season & the archery season have never overlapped.
We have talked to our IL biologist about this very thing many times & they have very very good reasons for managing it this way, just like they have for well over 50 years !!!!
PLEASE.... let the biologist manage the IL deerseasons. NOT special interest groups, private companies and/or politicians !!!!
But when those others are out of work, they will tell him we are in a depression.
gun season doesnt need to be held during the rut , they will kill just as many without the rut .
Lynn W's Link
http://www.dnr.illinois.gov/hunting/Documents/HuntTrapDigest.pdf
I wonder why ......... would it be unfair to the gun hunters ............. does DNR consider them archery equipment ........ next thing will be a special crossbow season ........... 8^(
"you have not responed to my request for three good reasons. "
I have replied to your silly misnomer about being able to use a x-gun during gunseason & then again with your silly rhetoric about being over 62 ???????
IF...we have "no effective bowhunting group in IL", explain to me this. How did HB4819 get reduced from the whole archery season, to just after the firearm season ?????
Who got Chief Senate Sponsor Sen. Sue Rezin, to pull her sponsorship of this bill, in one single day ????
Who stopped HB1603 the year before ???
ect......
IL, just like a whole slew of other states failed to keep the crossbow out of archery season. CO is the one state I know of that sent the crossbow industry whores packin (there may be others I'm not aware of). It may only be a matter of time there as well.
I'm curious to know the biological reason archery tackle isn't allowed in firearm seasons? I'm not sure I'm an advocate of pushing the idea, as we do already have a pretty fair season in my mind, but just curious.
Shouldnt we also proect the muzzleloader guys from this terrible intrusion ? Bowhunters could give up 3 more days . Couldnt they ? Like you said they already have 3 1/2 months . And we may as well let the youth hunters learn without bowhunter intrusion so lets mark 2 more days off the calender.
While we are at it lets let the crossbow fans have a week or two without those pesky intruding bowhunters.
yessir lets come down on those self centered bow hunters . They act like they own the 3 months of bow season that has been theirs since the 50's
Shouldnt we all be appalled that the State of Illinois is allowing such nonsense . Shouldnt we all band together and start a grassroots movement to put a stop to this ? Bowhunters dont "need" 7 more days to hunt . As has already been observed they already have 3 1/2 months . Maybe we could team up with an organization like PETA to lobby the DNR to put a stop to this nonsense.
Or on the other hand ,maybe it wouldnt cause the collapse of the Illinois deer herd or destroy gun hunting in Illinois to allow someone who owns their own hunting land to bowhunt during the gun season providing they hold a gun deer permit.
I would love for someone to explain to me how a deer hunter on stand holding a bow would have more of a negative effect to the hunters on the next farm than a deer hunter on stand holding a gun.
Lynn W's Link
This year IL bowhunters have a new all-time record of 105 days afield. ( archery season was extend by 3 days in Jan 2010 = Fri, Sat, Sun )
IL Firearm season = 7 days
That is a 15 to 1 ratio
So when you have only 7 days, the weather can play a much bigger factor.
54% of the total 2011 deer harvest, was in the 7 days of firearm season = 34% in archery season.
191,463 archery season tags
356,916 firearm season tags
So that is 145,754 more tags issued for those 7 days, which can puts over 100,000 more gunhunters in the field, then anytime during bowseason. PLUS firearms have a much longer range & more likely to have multiple shots. This is the safety factor that the IDNR is always concerned about, for good reason, as Edge Hunter eluded to earlier.
Firearm permit success rate was 27% compared to 34% for archery. So bowhunters are more likely to fill their tags.
Firearm single permits are $25 compared to $15 for archery
Firearm combo $42.50 compared to archery's combo $26
IL Archery season is NOT closed statewide. The Chicago area counties, that do not have firearm season, are open & SOME state parks, that do not have firearm hunting, are also open. So their are some places to bowhunt in IL.
These are some of the very good reasons that the IDNR has for keeping bows out of the 7 day firearm season & why IBS nor UBI has ever pushed the issue of allowing bows in the 7 day firearm season.
http://www.dnr.illinois.gov/hunting/deer/Documents/IllinoisDeerHarvestReportFinal.2011.2012.pdf
Bowhunters do it also. I deal with it every year. Wish I used tree stands as I would never have to buy any, just use the ones I pull down from trespassing bowhunters. In over 23 years on my property I have yet to have a trespasser during gun season. I do catch folks looking for mushrooms and arrow heads without permission.
People are people, whether they carry a gun or a bow or a mushroom sack. Ya got good ones and ya got bad ones.
There would be no harm in allowing bows during gun season, just make it so you still have to buy the gun tag, but can use archery equipment. CO does this, if it works here in National Forests with rifles it can certainly work in IL and not be a safety issue.
The other items just seem to point to bowhunters getting their fair share already. I agree with the quantity of the experience, however the quality of the experience has dwindled. A greater percentage of the season is now shared with a number of other groups whether it be rifle, shotgun, pistol, or crossbow.
IF...you do not believe me you can google search 'mathematical probability' and read about the scientific/mathematical way that biologist would be able know this & calculate the increase.
Our IL biologist have been controlling firearm deerhunter afield, on a per county bases, for decade now. The safety factor has always played a big part of their calculation, into the county permit quotas.
The last time the DNR would give us stats, there were over 30,000 bowhunters who didn't gun hunt. Keep that number in mind.
1) Safety - speculation or not, that's a lot more people to put into the woods at one time. You can't limit it to just landowners... we don't need more class warfare. If you make those permits available, you have 30,000 more hunters applying for, and getting, permits. And let's face it... bow-shot deer will often travel farther than gun-shot deer. Where I hunt, that could mean having to walk by several gun hunters while tracking a deer just a few hundred yards. I guarantee you that safety is number one on DNR's list, and they are extremely conservative... they don't even want to issue season-long spring turkey tags because they're afraid it would put too many hunters in the woods.
2) Let's say you make bowhunters buy a gun permit to hunt those 7 days. That's 30,000 fewer permits available for someone who may not bowhunt. Assume a bowhunter drew a gun permit in his county, in addition to getting to hunt 105 days on his regular archery permit. What if he pulls a permit away from a gun-only hunter in some small county with limited numbers of permits? You now have some hunters getting to take multiple deer (and bucks) in one season, while other hunters couldn't even get a permit for one. Is that fair?
3) Deer management - from a strict management point of view, how could the DNR try to figure out how many permits to issue... not knowing how many permits are being used by gun hunters or gun hunters (with very different success rates)? Not only do you have the 30,000 bowhunters now getting gun tags, there would probably be even more who would choose a bow (or crossbow) over a gun... making it even harder to figure out how many permits to issue.
I'm a bowhunter, first and foremost. Never killed a deer with a gun, and I'll probably celebrate opening day of this gun season in a boat crappie fishing! I should be the poster child for wanting to be afield those extra 7 days, but I have no problem giving others the chance after spending TONS of time in the woods over 3.5 months. I dislike gun season like most true bowhunters, but I'm not selfish enough to take chances away from others just to give myself a few extra days... that probably wouldn't be all that enjoyable anyway.
The state of Colorado & it's mountainous National Forest are VERY VERY different then the plains of most of IL !!!!!!
More facts to prove this ( from google) =
CO has about 5 million people compared to 13 million for IL
CO has 109,000 sq mile compared to IL's 58,000 sq
CO has more them 11,000 ft of vertical height difference (statewide) compared to IL's less then 1,000 ft
I think most people would call this an apples & oranges comparison
Hope that's enough facts to helps explains why rifled deerhunting & bowhunting the IL firearm season, have both never been allowed here.
I have to say I don't agree that your facts show my comparison as apples to oranges.
State population doesn't mean anything, 9.8 million people live in the Chicago area which is why you have more people. The proper comparison would be number of hunters. CO has 375,000 deer/elk/pronghorn hunters per year, IL has 356,916 firearm hunters. Pretty similar numbers in my mind. If 10% of those 356,916 had a bow instead of a gun, why are they at more risk than a gun hunter? Just control the number of tags, it's easy.
Elevation difference throughout the state doesn't mean anything either. Sure, the state has 11,000 ft of elevation difference but elk are hunted between 8-10,000 ft primarily. Have you ever pronghorn hunted on the eastern plains? Flat as a pancake and wide open. IL has a lot off wooded areas which would be safer than eastern CO. Plus, the fact that a rifle bullet will travel 3-4 miles whereas a slug will not wipes out any effect that elevation has on safety.
Like I said above, it's pretty simple. Keep the number of tags the same, just give gun hunters the option of using a bow. No hunters added, no mathematical probability of higher risk.
I would never support gun season being open to all bowhunters ,however if you are already holding a firearm deer permit that allows a choice of weapons ,why not include bows in that choice . There would not be more hunters in the woods,because you would be required to have a firearm deer permit. .
KC ........ #1) see above
#2) ....... I dont believe for one second that thousands of bowhunters are going to rush out and start buying gun tags because of an additional 7 days to hunt. In my area a high percentage of bowhunters already buy gun tags . It is my opininion that they should have the option to shoot the deer with a bow if they choose . Keep in mind they would have to tag the deer with a gun tag which would keep it out of any bowhunting record book. I would bet that less than 1% would ever actually hunt with a bow during these 7 days , but I believe it should be legal to do if they choose.
"while other hunters couldn't even get a permit for one"............. for many years in illinois not everyone that applied received a gun tag . Sometimes it might be one tag every 2 or three years . And that sucked .
But are you suggesting that gun tags should be limited to non bowhunters . Even if not everyone draws a tag , bowhunters have just as much right to buy a gun tag as anyone else ......... NO ????
#3 .....since they alrady have gun permits this would not change the # of permits in one way or another.The extremely small number of hunters that would hunt with a bow would not alter the kill statistics significantly.Obviously anyone that would choose to hunt with a bow instead of a gun is not that concerned about killing something on that day .
I'm not advocating to add any more hunters or licenses, just saying that those who purchase a gun tag should have the option of hunting with a bow. Seems like no harm done by allowing more primitive weapons as long as the number of gun tags doesn't increase.
"Should archery hunters be allowed to hunt during the regular firearms season."
Doesn't mention permits.
If you don't add any more permits, then you could be taking up to 30,000 permits away from gun hunters. I'm sure there wouldn't be that many, but you get the point. I think bowhunters, in general, would appear selfish if we proposed something that could take tags away from gun hunters. Think about it... Bowhunters who already hunt 105 days and can take 2 bucks, could take a tag away from someone who only gun hunts, essentially locking them out of the entire season.
Find a politician willing to run that piece of legislation, and wait for the gun hunters to wake up and fight it.
Sure there will always be some "ME ME ME" people who can come up with lots & lots of different reasons why it would work out better for 'them'.
"50 and 40 and 30 and even 20 years ago Hunting Was Fun" = the real funny thing is that 50 and 40 and 30 and even 20 years ago, bowhunting wasn't allowed during the firearm season either AND "Hunting was" still "Fun", right ......8^)
It is pretty sad how some of you are all for displacing hundreds or thousand of our fellow IL deerhunters (gunhunters), out of their deerseason....8^(
Can any of you honestly say that we must have 112 days of bowhunting in IL ???
Many bowhunters , in my area most bowhunters are already gun hunters .
Thats where most bowhunters come from .......... converted gun hunters ....... back in the day it was one of Bear Archery's advertising campaigns ........ "become a two season hunter"
I cant believe we have folks on a bowhunting sight standing up for and wanting to protect gun hunters and their season .
oh well ... we are all entitled to our opinions and posting about it here wont change one thing.
Could be... but that 30,000 number (bowhunters who do not gun hunt AT ALL) is straight from IDNR, and they confirmed it just a few months ago when I was in a Senate committee hearing with them. Want to know how many gun hunters don't bowhunt? A LOT! Think they'd like a few more days in OUR season? We fight extended gun season bills every year. Just last year there was a bill that would double it... from 7 days to 14 days. Push archery into the gun season, and I guarantee you'll be dealing with more E/S gun hunting days not long after.
"I cant believe we have folks on a bowhunting sight standing up for and wanting to protect gun hunters and their season ."
I can't believe we have people who are so greedy that they can't be satisfied with 105 days of hunting and the opportunity to take multiple deer... that they'd STILL want 7 more days and the good chance of taking a permit away from another hunter just because they hunt with a different weapon... for 7 stinking days when the deer are already bouncing all over the place from overcrowded woods.
I've been on the receiving end of the "greedy bowhunters" comments in Springfield with the DNR and legislators. It makes it one hell of a lot harder to fight things like crossbows in the full archery season, extended antlerless gun seasons, extended regular gun seasons, and high-powered rifles... when there's bowhunters who think they need more and more all the time.
We (bowhunters) had one heck of a time a few years ago because some "greedy bowhunters" (not any organization) showed up in Springfield the year before FIGHTING to keep kids from being able to shoot bucks in the youth gun season. Lawmakers remember crap like that. And they remember how we fought to keep NR's limited. And they remember us fighting crossbows year after year. And they remember us fighting every bill that expands gun hunting... from high-powered rifles to more gun days to 3-buck limits to unlimited buck harvest.
At some point, it's just not worth it to keep asking for more and more all the time in Springfield. Some things are worth fighting for, and others (like this issue) just aren't... especially with facts (DNR survey) against it.
And yes, that's my opinion. I feel just fine with my stance because I'm not asking for special treatment to extend my hunting days at someone else's expense... bow or gun.
what percentage of bowhunters continue to bowhunt after the second gun season ? Not many ! .... maybe 2 or three hunts total after the guns for most and not at all for many. With that in mind the 105 days you mention doesnt really mean much.
Do you really believe those 30,000 bowhunters that dont gun hunt at all are going to run out and start ordering gun permits for 7 more days ? What about the THOUSANDS of bowhunters that do gun hunt . Why do you not feel the need to support them ?
I agree that no one "needs" to use a bow during gun season . But no one needs to hunt with a crossbow during bow season either. Does anyone need to hunt with a handgun during gun season ? What about muzzleloaders , why do they "deserve" a special season when they already have 7 days to hunt with the gun hunters .
It seems ironic that you support everything in the above except allowing a gun hunting bowhunter the right to choose .
"What about the THOUSANDS of bowhunters that do gun hunt . Why do you not feel the need to support them ? "
voodoochile / rick perry / buckhunter/ a person who is banned from bowsite..... you don't know what all Kevin &/or I support or do not support, so don't make stupid erroneous statements trying to imply that you do !!!!
Thousands & thousands of deer get killed by bowhunters, after the gun seasons every year, so thousands of bowhunters hunt after the firearm season. So all 105 days are used.
NOT taking away any permits or extending seasons!
Everyone 'dances around' this meaning!
Firearm Season use to be 'shotgun'...now it is shotgun, muzzleloader, handgun .... the Permit Holders CHOICE! Some just seem to Not Get the Drift! A CHOICE of Weapon by the firearm permit holder is all it boils down to..... So I and maybe others, choose Not to Gun Hunt (even though some of us do have Gun Tags) but we'd rather use these tags and use a bow during this time. Sitting out there deer hunting with 3 different types of firearms AND/OR a BOW sounds fairly simple to me. CHOICE of Weapon!
No One is taking anything away from the firearm permit hunters!
NOT taking away any permits or extending seasons!"
Herm, there's 30,000 hunters who have never bought a firearm tag before (I'm thinking that's the part people don't seem to understand) who would now have access to the season. As far as gun permits, you have to do 1 of 2 things...
1) Increase the number of gun season permits to accommodate the influx of new hunters (up to 30K), or
2) Keep the gun season permit numbers the same, and let the bowhunters fight it out with the gun hunters for the available permits... which WILL displace some hunters who only gun hunted.
The only other alternative is using existing archery permits during gun season, which then adds thousands more hunters in the woods and decreases tag revenue because nobody would buy gun tags. Or... all those extra gun tags (30K, 50K, 100K?) would then go to gun hunters, resulting in increased kill numbers.
Which would you choose? The state selling more gun permits so everyone has a chance at a tag (I'm sure DNR wouldn't mind this option... raising more $$$)? Forcing a gun-only hunter to sit out an entire season while a bowhunter (possibly taking multiple deer) takes his tag away from him this year? Or keeping archery season open and killing thousands more deer due to the leftover gun tags going to more gun hunters?
Ya like to bowhunt? Bowhunt! Ya like to gun hunt? Gun hunt!
Put greed on the back burner and stop trying to take away from each other.
I really don't have any qualms about gun season. I use to enjoy it till I out grew it. We each have a different drive for all things in life. We all choose to, or not to....CHOICE is all I was driving at. But I do understand your ideas and where you are coming from. 30,000 BOW hunters that DO NOT apply for firearm tags....My Hat is off to them!....for I guess they are true bowhunters! That in itself is something to be proud of (I think).
So, We do have a 'choice', either bow hunt only or apply for a firearm permit and 'make us' use a firearm. Hmmmm, I guess I'll just be a private property patroler during firearm season as I have done for many years. But I Sure Do Miss The Hunt!
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TOM has the right idea! That would be a perfect solution!
The problem here is that a self appointed expert doesnt want to discuss or debate an issue,only wants to dictate.
Lynn you havent changed a bit .The minute your arguments run out of steam you immediately try to make it personal.
Please show us some of the data you love to post that will tell us how many bow kills are registered after the second gun season. Please have the data by counties so everyone will know what is happening in their area.
BTW .... there is a thread on TradGang about bowhunting during gun season. Several trad hunters from several states are posting positive posts about it. Maybe you should contact the DNR from all those other states to let them know the error of their ways .They probably do not realize they are ruining their gun seasons.
Why does everyone have to have THEIR WAY all the time. The present way, Eeryone gets something.
I started hunting Oregon in 1968 so experienced the hunting there before and after it was started there and the change was good for them. I brought this idea up with the IBS in the 80's to see if we could try to implement it in IL and got zero support from the members so dropped it.
I have no idea how Springfield would have received that suggestion back then but suspect in today's climate it would have been easier to have gotten it then than now.
And actually there is 10 counties now that have a CWD season and the gun hunters can kill any deer their left over permits are good for with the two buck limit not being in effect. They can also purchase antlerless CWD permits. Look at the CWD counties and they have a huge amount of permits available. Just a matter of time and this 10 counties will be 20.........
Edit: Whether there are 10 injuries per 100 or 100 per 1000 hunters the safety of one person is the same. If "they" have a scientifically sound procedure for determining how many people can hunt per (say a square mile) basis without any injuries, it may not be 100% factual, but at least somewhat credible. Those numbers were not given in the original post. BTW "basis".
Lynn I'm curious to know what your mathematical background is, or what you do for a living? Accusing me of knowing nothing about mathematics would lead me to believe you are a math genius.
"And let's face it... bow-shot deer will often travel farther than gun-shot deer. Where I hunt, that could mean having to walk by several gun hunters while tracking a deer just a few hundred yards." Altogether possible, but just curious, are there any stats to back this up?
Once again guys, your argument against appears to me to lie mostly with the fairness in season allotment already in place for bowhunters. I can't say I disagree with this. From my 2nd post on the thread if anyone missed it: "I'm curious to know the biological reason archery tackle isn't allowed in firearm seasons? I'm not sure I'm an advocate of pushing the idea, as we do already have a pretty fair season in my mind, but just curious."
Is that the majority of illinois hunters ?
voodoochile's Link
But look at the spike in archery kills on the last couple of days . Hmmmm ................... I wonder what thats about. ......... interesting stuff
Shotgun Season starts Friday (yuck) so the bow will get a 3 days rest! It has been this way for years and I can and do live with that!......
Highlife: I feel for you not being able to pick up the bow this season. I don't post much, but anyone who has read my posts might know that my dad hunts with a crossbow due to 3 shoulder surgeries. He's a 40 year bowhunter. Some people on this site would have him not be in the woods with his crossbow. I think these people are self righteous morons. They call crossbows x-guns, but some of these same people hunt with compound bows! I don't get it. Just wait until some of them have a rotator cuff go bad, then tell us if you are done hunting.
I understand the point about adding 30k bowhunters which would force out some gun hunters, not really a great plan. One solution would be to make archery licenses available during the gun season, but if you buy one for during the gun season you cannot hunt during the regular archery season. That would solve the issue for NRs mainly, since most of us aren't going to travel to IL twice to hunt each year. It doesn't address the issue for residents that also bowhunt during archery season though, I don't have a great suggestion to address the issue for everyone though.
And yes, I realize that this solution only solves my problem, but I'm also not asking anyone to go to bat for me. I will live with shotgun hunting if I have to.
You have a point about the rut, but I think that it's proven that Veterans Day, and a day or two before and after, are the peak days for big buck kills. It certainly has been for me. I would miss opening day of gun season before I missed Veterans Day. Just my opinion.
BTW ...... I am not against crossbow permits issued to hunters with a medical condition. I'm really not that anti crossbow at all . With modern compounds being as advanced as they are I dont feel that crossbows are that much out of line. I'm betting that within a couple years crossbows will be included as legal archery equipment for the entire bow season whether we like it or not.
I dont have any intentions of hunting with a bow during the gun season but I feel that it should be an option. The 30,000 gun permit thing is not realistic im my opinion. As I have already said the majority of bowhunters already buy gun tags and I dont believe for a minute that the ones that dont are going to run out and buy a gun tag just to add 7 days to their season.
The point made about gun season interupting the rut is a valid point as well.
Years ago Illinois had one of the most respected deer programs in the country. That is no longer the case . We havent changed with the times the way some other states have done. Politicians now make the decisions instead of biologists and that is a poor plan.
We don't allow gun hunting on our farm, it would sure be nice and reasonable to allow me to bowhunt my own farm during this time.
I know we don't have to mimic Indiana for a lot of reasons, but at least they recognize that if you want to, just put on an orange vest and go for it.
Scott
