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Messages posted to thread:
Muzzy 08-Sep-07
Chessbum 08-Sep-07
Muzzy 08-Sep-07
Chessbum 09-Sep-07
LonghairedDaddy 09-Sep-07
Chessbum 09-Sep-07
Chessbum 09-Sep-07
LonghairedDaddy 09-Sep-07
Chessbum 09-Sep-07
Deadeye 09-Sep-07
Terry Williams 10-Sep-07
jeb 10-Sep-07
Chessbum 10-Sep-07
Mark 11-Sep-07
DB Dalton 11-Sep-07
Terry Williams 11-Sep-07
DB Dalton 11-Sep-07
treebob 11-Sep-07
Sparta-T 11-Sep-07
mighty warrior 11-Sep-07
Chessbum 12-Sep-07
Terry Williams 12-Sep-07
DB Dalton 12-Sep-07
jeb 13-Sep-07
DB Dalton 13-Sep-07
jeb 13-Sep-07
Oscuh 13-Sep-07
jeb 13-Sep-07
DB Dalton 13-Sep-07
jeb 13-Sep-07
DB Dalton 14-Sep-07
jeb 14-Sep-07
Roger Norris 14-Sep-07
Sparta-T 15-Sep-07
jeb 15-Sep-07
Sparta-T 15-Sep-07
Roger Norris 15-Sep-07
Chessbum 19-Sep-07










From: Muzzy ........ No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual ....... Date: 08-Sep-07


I want to buy a hunting license for my daughter, she'll be hunting under the hunter apprentice program. I'm wondering, do I need to bring her social security card with me ? She does not have a state ID. Only a school ID.

From: Chessbum ........ No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual ....... Date: 08-Sep-07


Michigan Hunting License Regulations

In order to purchase a Michigan hunting license, all "hunters born on or after January 1, 1960 need a Hunter Safety Certificate. A Hunting Safety Certificate is earned by passing a hunter education course that is approved by the Michigan Department of Natural Resources."

Have your daughter take one of the hunter safety courses and sign up yourself and sit through it with her. Couple of nights of your time and it will pay off in the long run. I did this with my daughter and I have hunted bear in Maine (14 and 15 years old) and deer (16 years old) in Montana with her and I have never had to worry once about her making a fatal mistake with a rifle or bow. It was time well spent for me and you will not regret ever the time spent together with your daughter. They train these kids well... Having said all of that I do not remember having to give her or my sons social security number but I do know that at one time it was the licence number. That has been changed now. JohnV>

From: Muzzy ........ No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual ....... Date: 08-Sep-07


I did see that... but the apprentice program allows for 2 years of hunting w/o the certificate. She'll take the class later this year.

Thanks for the input.

From: Chessbum ........ No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual ....... Date: 09-Sep-07


With out starting an argument what advantage is there in hunting with out the certificate? I'm a hunter safety instructor myself and just curious. I could pm back and forth with you if you prefer. Just want to figure out in my mind why this would be offered over a hunter safety class? I see no advantage and possibly could be somewhat dangerous in my mind. If you look at the hunting statistics hunter safety has proven to save many lives over the year? If it is none of my business I can accept that and not trying to put you on the spot here. JohnV>

From: LonghairedDaddy ........ No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual ....... Date: 09-Sep-07


No, you do not have to bring a ss cert. with you. If she has a school or state id I would bring that. But neither is required. She must be accompanied by a licensed hunter when purchasing a license. She will be issued a sportsman card with her purchase of the license also. My son is on his second year of the apprentice program, also his last. The rules state that the apprentice must be in controlling distance of a licensed hunter. I know some people do not agree with this program, but honestly I trust my son with a weapon more than I do most adults. My next door neighbor is a safety instructor and he's been shooting with my son and I on more that one occasion. He always tells me that he's impressed with my son's handling of his weapon and his knowledge of gun safety. the idea behind this program is to give the non-experienced hunter a chance to go out and hunt for 2 years just to give it a try. that way they can decide if they like it or not before investing the cash on the course. While there is a HUGE safety concern about having someone in the woods that has not had the course, I do support this program. As long as the laws are followed, so far this program has proven a safe one. By the way, my son sits right next to me in our treestand or ground blind. Good luck to you and your daughter this year, if you have any more questions I'll be glad to answer them for you, if i can.

From: Chessbum ........ No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual ....... Date: 09-Sep-07


This is the part that confuses me?

"the idea behind this program is to give the non-experienced hunter a chance to go out and hunt for 2 years just to give it a try. that way they can decide if they like it or not before investing the cash on the course. While there is a HUGE safety concern about having someone in the woods that has not had the course"

I think I paid fifteen bucks for my kids each to get their certificate? It was money well spent but on the other hand someone who lives on a farm or in the country this may be ok when no one else is around. Take the same group of "aprentices" from inside the city that have been taught to shoot on a Play Station and let them walk the state and federal lands and the safety cushion is not there. Are they taught the simple things? I've had my legs sweeped by a loaded shotgun by both old timers I have hunted with and on the range while being taught to shoot trap. This is the reality that scares me over this apprentice thing I am trying to understand the logic behind. I have to think that this is not such a wise approach to training but I could be wrong about this and still trying to figure it all out...

From: Chessbum ........ No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual ....... Date: 09-Sep-07


Here is an article I copied. Seems like time is the problem? I wonder about that as I am as busy as anyone out there and still found time to take my daughter to a hunter safety class? But here is one take on this:

Apprentice license might help recruit hunters

Mark Taylor

In the coming weeks, thousands of aspiring hunters will file into meeting rooms across Virginia for hunter education training.

It's an important, traditional and necessary right of passage in Virginia and many other states.

But it's also one that may be contributing to the steady decline in hunter numbers here and beyond.

The problem is time.

Most hunter education courses in Virginia run 12 hours.

Sometimes the instruction is spread out over four evenings. In other instances a class can take an entire Saturday and then half of the next day.

For people interested in hunting, the class material is engaging and the time goes fast.

The challenge is getting students to the class in the first place.

There's one big motivation to take the course in Virginia.

Hunter education certification is mandatory for hunters ages 12 to 15, and for first-time adult hunters.

For youngsters who have already been spending time hunting with a parent or other mentor, taking the class isn't a big inconvenience.

Chances are they are accustomed to spending long hours afield so they know the 12 hours is a relatively minor time investment in the big scheme of things.

Most importantly, there's a good chance they are already addicted to hunting and will do what it takes to maintain their privileges.

But for potential hunters who are on the fence, be they kids or adults, 12 hours is a scary number, especially when so many other activities and responsibilities are competing for that time.

I have a good friend who, unable to find the hunter education card he earned as a youngster, forfeited a hefty deposit on an elk-hunting trip out West because he was unable to find 12 hours to retake the course to earn the card he was required to show.

A growing number of states are recognizing the problem and taking action to address it with so-called apprentice hunting programs.

Generally speaking, the programs give first-time hunters the option of spending a season afield -- under close supervision of a mentor -- without having to take a hunter education course.

If they decide hunting is for them, they must obtain hunter education certification in order to continue hunting.

Such programs are not a silver bullet to solve the shrinking ranks of hunters, which nationally see only about seven hunters enter the sport for every 10 who leave.

Loss of hunting land through development and increased difficulty accessing hunting areas remain huge obstacles in the recruitment of new hunters, as does that competition for recreational time and money.

But the apprentice hunting programs are helping, which is why so many states are jumping on board.

According to the National Shooting Sports Foundation, which with partners the National Wild Turkey Federation and U.S. Sportsmen's Alliance is putting a lot of resources into its Families Afield campaign, 12 states have eased youth hunting restrictions since 2004.

Most have adopted some form of apprentice license.

Ohio is one of the states where the program is working.

In May, Steve Gray, the former chief of Ohio's Wildlife Division, was in Virginia to discuss the success of that state's apprentice hunting license program.

Speaking to a Department of Game and Inland Fisheries board committee, Gray said the program had boosted license sales by thousands.

Virginia game department officials are pursuing the idea but will need help. Such a change would require General Assembly action.

Now that the game department is actively looking into the idea, it's a pretty sure bet it will turn up next winter in Richmond.

As has happened elsewhere, anti-hunting activists will likely voice opposition.

They won't be able to cite safety concerns: Statistics prove that young hunters accompanied by mentors are the least likely of all hunters to be involved in accidents.

Unlike efforts to change another law that has been seen as an impediment to hunter recruitment in Virginia -- the ban on Sunday hunting -- this effort will probably go through.

As it should.

From: LonghairedDaddy ........ No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual ....... Date: 09-Sep-07


Well speaking of time. My son decided not to join football this year, after being in it for 6 years. I am disappointed but it will give us lots more time together hunting this bow season. I do agree with you John, lack time is a poor excuse.

From: Chessbum ........ No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual ....... Date: 09-Sep-07


Not trying to say this is right or wrong it just seems like everytime I turn around at work, church or home a new quick fix program to make money pops up. Being brought up in the fifties we where taught by mentors but these where guys that lived through WWII and Korean War and knew a thing or two about safely using guns and hunting. We learned real quick never to point a gun at anything you do not want dead and never dry fire a gun in the house...

From: Deadeye ........ No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual ....... Date: 09-Sep-07


Jack, Lapeer County Sportsmen's Club is the exception to the rule. They teach hunter ed classes every Monday night all year long. Of course the largest classes are always August, Sept, and Oct. Cost at the club is a $5.00 donation.

That is a dedicated group of guys if I have ever seen one and I tip my cap to them!!

From: Terry Williams ........ No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual ....... Date: 10-Sep-07


Like it or don't like it, we need more youth involved in hunitng. Our numbers continue to dwindle.

From: jeb ........ No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual ....... Date: 10-Sep-07


The parents of these underaged hunters should require Hunter Safety before they can hunt under the apprentice program even though it is not required by the State. Our son required his ten year old to take and pass hunter safety before he could take advantage of this season. He took hunter safety and passed it and our son is still questioning his sons total ability to be in the woods with his bow. On a side note, I was there watching his field testing and got a kick out of my grandson. The safety instructor tried to hand him the pump shotgun and my grandson asked him" would you please check it for safe first". The instructor checked the weapon and then handed it to Jonathan. The instructor then looked back at us and smiled. After the test he said that was the first time a student asked him to safety check the weapon before they grabbed it.

Jon Stewart

From: Chessbum ........ No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual ....... Date: 10-Sep-07


Good post Jon. Kids learn quick and if you put them in the position of making a mistake they will more than likely not do it twice. The more I think about this the more I do not care about this apprentice licence. Reminds me of the precher who is more concerned about the number of people attending his church on Sunday Morning rather than how many lost souls are saved while lisening to his message. As a parent I want my kids to get as much exposure to safe hunting and handling of the weapon of choice from experinced hunters who can help keep them from becoming a tree stand or shooting fatality and if I have to take a few days out of my busy schedule it is time well spent I think in the long run. Just my .02cents here...

From: Mark ........ No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual ....... Date: 11-Sep-07


I think the apprentice hunter is a wonderful program. The apprentice hunter still needs to be with an licensed hunter, which should keep them both safe. It allows someone who hasn't hunted before to get the chance without the time commitment.

Hunters Safety doesn't guarantee good decisions, I have been on the receiving end of downrange fire in the woods by people who have been in hunters safety programs. If guided properly, the positive impact of getting more people interested in hunting, or even just seeing our side of the hunting issue, in the long run can just benefit the hunting community.

Mark

From: DB Dalton ........ One Violation Reported on this individual One Violation Reported on this individual ....... Date: 11-Sep-07
THIS VISITOR IS CURRENTLY UNDER WATCH FOR DISRESPECTFUL BEHAVIOR


The apprentice program is a dangerous, fast food response by legislators like Michell McManus who dont understand the concepts of field safety, the attention spans of ten year olds, or the inability of the average Joe Mentor to properly instruct new comers to the world of gunpowder and projectiles.

Its a loaded gun with no safety pointed at some unfortunate statistic yet to be killed. When it finally happens, the wringing of hands and back peddling of this disasteouus program's supporters will be monumental.

The biggest folly, one can even minimalize the concept as folly, is this idea that the Mentor only has to be within some undescribed distance of his apprentices... YES.. that was plural.. the Mentor can take TWO untrained kids into the field at once... and he only has to be within seeing and visual distance.... 40 yards? Fifty yards? How is he to control two kids when a pheasant flies up between them?

Yeah... thats what I thought.... a whole bunch of silence from those who have no idea what they are talking about.

Im not afraid to speak up. This is a bad, bad decision..... it literally makes me sick to my stomach.... to think that Michelle McManus is more interested in expedient ways to get people outdoors by skipping over fundemental safety instruction. Unbelieveable.

From: Terry Williams ........ No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual ....... Date: 11-Sep-07


Dave do you have any reference to any state where this program has resulted in a firearm accident? Just for the record I and every other board member voted against this.

Also my son and my brothers sons whom I mentor couldn't wait to attend hunter safety class.

From: DB Dalton ........ One Violation Reported on this individual One Violation Reported on this individual ....... Date: 11-Sep-07
THIS VISITOR IS CURRENTLY UNDER WATCH FOR DISRESPECTFUL BEHAVIOR


If I am not mistaken, one apprentice child was injured in Michigan last year, but I will go back and look up the figures...

And for what its worth... the idea of having to prove this is a bad idea by waiting for someone to get killed is un-necessary.

My feeble little brain tells me that firearms in the hands of two untrained ten year olds with a "mentor" somewhere close by is a recipe for trouble.

We dont let kids have pointy scissors, we dont let high school kids have butter knives in the school parking lots, we cant take a bottle of water on an airplane, but we can put 1000 foot pounds of energy in the hands of a child who's not big enough to ride the Roller coasters at Cedar Point and let em loose with minimal attention or instruction?

Great idea, guys...

From: treebob ........ No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual ....... Date: 11-Sep-07


Senior apprentice????????????????

Don't need to take hunters safety "ever" but can get a apprenticee license!!!! What a joke!!!!!!!!!!!

From: Sparta-T ........ No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual ....... Date: 11-Sep-07


I feel as strongly as DB does when it comes to firearms hunting under the current hunter apprentice program. When I was growing up, my father mentored me with hundreds of hours in a 14' aluminum boat and following our beagle in the field. He taught me to shoot, handle a firearm, and most importantly the vital necessity of ultimate safety. That was prior to Hunter Safety being mandatory, but I invested far more time carrying my Crossman pellet gun to demonstrate competence than a 12 hour Hunter Safety course. If folks don't have a weekend to invest in proper training, they should not be taking armed kids into the woods. God forbid that someone should be maimed or die to learn this lesson...........

TL

From: mighty warrior ........ No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual ....... Date: 11-Sep-07


why not let a 14 year old have the keys to the car and see if they like driving before they go to take their drivers license classes and learn how to drive properly??? mark

From: Chessbum ........ No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual ....... Date: 12-Sep-07


Did a litttle homework here and found that a hunting incident occured in Bay City 9/16/2006 where an Apprentice hunter moved into the line of fire. The victim had purchased an Apprentice junior small game license 9/1/2006 and there is no record of taking hunter education. While this was nonfatal what happened the "vitim was hunting Waterfaowl in a marsh and was struck in the cheek." Equipment was shotgun and this was not self inflicted. The kid was 10 years old and I would make a guess here that he was shot by his mentor though it does not say who fired the shotgun. This was one of 35 hunting incidents in 2006 31 where nonfatal and 4 fatal. Not menitoned in the report where 10 treestand falls where 4 where fatal. Not making any judgements here just letting everyone know the facts. Hunter Safety does help save lives and if you look at the statistics over the years it will prove me correct in saying so. JohnV>

From: Terry Williams ........ No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual ....... Date: 12-Sep-07


It was kind of funny as I was flippin channels last night I stopped for a moment on an "outdoor" show with someone that shall we say DB, doesn't talk about anymore, and this person was advocating the Safari Club and the apprentice license.

This was a slap in the face to all the hunters saftey teachers and to folks that had waited to take the course and passed it.

Sign of the times?

From: DB Dalton ........ One Violation Reported on this individual One Violation Reported on this individual ....... Date: 12-Sep-07
THIS VISITOR IS CURRENTLY UNDER WATCH FOR DISRESPECTFUL BEHAVIOR


Terry, some people do not think things through when they are stumping on their TV show.

For the record, the SCI bow chapter of SE Michigan has a youth hunter education program that takes place each year in Caseville. This hands on, weekend camp was the original blueprint for this "other guys" now inactive hunter education activity, as well as the sign post for our own MSC Camp Wilderness.

I have heard this other guy's views on putting guns in the hands of children, and he believes that there should be NO age limitations at all. The fact that he doesnt believe kids should get proper instruction before taking to the field with an apprentice license is not surprising to me.

From: jeb ........ No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual ....... Date: 13-Sep-07


I have the news letter from the April 1963 MBH that has a photo of a 12 yr old girl who bagged a 251 pound black bear with a 30# recurve, 26" arrow and a bodkin head. Her name is Susan Smith and she was sitting in a ground blind with her father, Grover Smith, while in the Deadstream swamp area. She arrowed the bear at 12 feet and dropped him in his tracks with a neck shot. Her father, Grover, has shot 15 or 16 bear, ( said he lost count) and in 1958 shot one that weighed in at 535#.

This was long before apprentice and hunter safety programs. This shows what responsible hunting parents can teach their kids.

It would be interesting to find out where Susan Smith is today and what her hunting status is. Also was she honored in the new MBH book thats out?

From: DB Dalton ........ One Violation Reported on this individual One Violation Reported on this individual ....... Date: 13-Sep-07
THIS VISITOR IS CURRENTLY UNDER WATCH FOR DISRESPECTFUL BEHAVIOR


Jeb.... the exception to the rule is not what should be used as common place when making decisions about the use of live firearms in the hands of ten year old kids.

Whoever Susan Smith is, I think its great that her dad taught her how to use a bow and hunt bear.

In 1963, there was no Hunter Safety requirement. Go back and look at how many hunters DIED every year in Michigan from the mistakes they made.. look at how many were injured.

Look at how many died three years ago in Michigan. Look at how many were injured.

Making a conclusion based upon one anecdotal success story like a Susan Smith is interesting, but not logical.

The statistics will demonstrate the value of certified firearms training. To overlook that is dangerous.

From: jeb ........ No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual ....... Date: 13-Sep-07


Mr Dalton, it appears as though you jumped on me and my post. Not once did I say I was for or against the apprentice program. I just put an interesting or at least what I thought was interesting fact about a 12 yr old member of the MBH killing a bear with a stick bow and arrow at 12 feet in a ground blind. You also wrote about 10 yr olds having live firearms in their hands. The apprentice program allows the use of bows only for 10 and 11 yr olds not firearms. I made no conclusion on the Susan Smith story except that responsible parents can teach their kids to hunt safely.

As far as my stance on the apprentice program, I am 100 % against it. As far as 10 yr olds in the woods with firearms goes I can give you the names of a half a dozen adults that do not belong in the woods with a weapon.

Jon Stewart

From: Oscuh ........ No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual ....... Date: 13-Sep-07


Hunter's Safety should start with the parents

... my 5 year old has a little bow and when he shoots (from all of 10 feet from the target) we always work on properly handling his bow, being safe, etc.

From: jeb ........ No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual ....... Date: 13-Sep-07


Oscuh, I agree 100%. Its starts with the parents. That was one of the points in my story about Susan Smith. The other reason for the story is its MBH history and this is an MBH hunting site. I would still like to know what Susan Smith is doing today as far as the world of hunting goes.

From: DB Dalton ........ One Violation Reported on this individual One Violation Reported on this individual ....... Date: 13-Sep-07
THIS VISITOR IS CURRENTLY UNDER WATCH FOR DISRESPECTFUL BEHAVIOR


Jeb... your message included this comment..

"This was long before apprentice and hunter safety programs. This shows what responsible hunting parents can teach their kids."

You certainly are addressing the apprentice program, both in title and in content. Your lead in that displayed how a young 12 year old can hunt safely with no formal hunter training suggests that none is needed.

As for the Apprentice program itself... you need to go read the law and see what it allows. Ten year olds with firearms is allowed. Not in deer season, but my objection is all inclusive. Ten year olds with shotguns hunting small game is part of the package.. go look it up.

Giving me the names of a thousand adults who arent safe is no argument against protecting children and adults from untrained children caring live ammunition in the field.

If you feel like I jumped on you, dont feel like the lone ranger.. this bill is dangerous, and your comments suggested that if only a child is taught by a GOOD parent or Mentor, they will be safe... I fully agree... if a child is taught by someone who knows what they are doing, and knows the laws... It CAN be accomplished. Prior to mandatory hunter safety, we proved that it wasnt accomplished ENOUGH...further more.. even you were not aware of this law's reach.

Im not trying to pick on you, but this law is a death waiting to happen.. a needless, unnecessary one.

From: jeb ........ No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual ....... Date: 13-Sep-07


Maybe Mr Dalton list of who he would like in the woods would be a shorter one. I simply wrote some history made by a 12 yr old girl who was a member of the Michigan Bowhunters in 1963 and in my opinion was properly instructed on how to hunt by her father. That was it. Never meant to imply that her fathers instruction was better than or in place of hunter safety and the apprentice program. And I was not aware of 10 and 11 yrs old being able to hunt with a firearm for smallgame. And as I said in my last post I am 100% against the apprentice program so you are preaching to the choir Mr DB.

Jon Stewart

From: DB Dalton ........ One Violation Reported on this individual One Violation Reported on this individual ....... Date: 14-Sep-07
THIS VISITOR IS CURRENTLY UNDER WATCH FOR DISRESPECTFUL BEHAVIOR


Jon.. sometimes the choir needs to hear the hymns.

You didnt "simply" write about a 12 year old with no instruction except from her father.. you attached the apprentice program to your comments, which makes them "less than simple". I acknowledged that "some" dads have the ability and time and patience to teach their children well (apologies to CS&N)... but countered that the anecdote does not make the standard acceptable.

My list of people who should be in the woods with live ammunition include everyone who has taken and passed a Hunter Safety course. No more, no less...

Providing instant access to hunting via the Apprentice Program is a short sighted, dangerous ploy by legislators who dont understand Hunter Safety, firearm safety, or anything remotely related to the necessity of certified firearms training.

They just want to say we sold more licences, and that they are supporters of the outdoors... If they supported hunting, they would INSIST on proper education... but they are just play actors... with their own agendas...its politics...dontcha know...

From: jeb ........ No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual ....... Date: 14-Sep-07


DB, again I agree with almost everything you wrote accept the post above. "My list of people who should be in the woods with live ammunition include EVERYONE who has taken and passed a Hunter Safety course. No more, no less".

I strongly disagree. My 10 year old grandson just took and passed Hunter Safety. He does not belong in the woods with a firearm. Too young. Our son is considering letting him hunt deer with a bow in the normal bow season and not the advanced season and that is only if he can shoot his bow well enough to hit the animal.

Being formal law enforcement and military, gun safety has been beat into my mellon. I inturn did the same to our son. An example of this. I got a good deal on a single shot 410 shotgun. Gave it to our grandson for Christmas. The gun has been locked up ever since he recieved it. My grandson grabbed the box of shotgun shells and showed them to his cousin. The grandson has been ground from the use of the gun for 6 months just for showing his shells off.

Jon Stewart

From: Roger Norris ........ No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual ....... Date: 14-Sep-07


As the father of 3 kids, 19, 16, and 13...kids who understand bows, firearms, and safety; the apprentice program is a disaster waiting to happen.

From: Sparta-T ........ No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual ....... Date: 15-Sep-07


I thinking taking Hunter Safety is the bare minimum for an aspiring firearms hunter, at which point the apprenticeship should start with much hands-on time from the parent/guardian. The conflict arrises from the fact that many fathers want to spend time in the woods with their kids during a period that doesn't interfere with their own desire to hunt. That was the beauty of small game hunting when I was growing up. Dad took me out to chase bunnies a lot before and after firearms deer season, which allowed me to learn proper firearms handling with a shotgun under direct supervision.

I wasn't taken to a spot and sat down to wait alone for God-knows how long while he sat somewhere else for his own purposes. While the intention of the youth hunt and apprentice hunter programs sound good on paper, I know from talking to kids that those things happen all the time. I also heard the story of a kid who was shaking so bad when a deer walked out during the youth hunt that their dad took the gun away and shot the deer "for" them. How desperate are we to get new young hunters that we are sacrificing our long-held values for the "cause"???

TL

From: jeb ........ No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual ....... Date: 15-Sep-07


I have a few questions about the hunter safety program. Is it suppose to be a uniform study/lesson plan? Are all classes suppose to have a hands on weapons class where they fam fire a rifle,shotgun, black powder and bow? Is there a governing body that makes sure all instructors are teaching the classes the same way? I know my grandson did not have any weapons firing classes. Is this portion of the learning process left up to the parents? Just wondering if each class taught is differant?

Jon Stewart

From: Sparta-T ........ No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual ....... Date: 15-Sep-07


The DNR has an officer who oversees the Hunter Safety and IBEP (Bowhunter Education) programs. They oversee the purchase of materials and make sure everyone dots their I's and crosses their T's. I've been out of the Lansing scene for a few years, so I am not sure who that currently happens to be. Although I have some HS experience via assisting classes, my experience is with IBEP as a longtime instructor and former area coordinator.

The HS and IBEP courses were developed many years ago in conjunction with other strong pro-hunting states, so the material is basically standardized with instructor manuals and student handbooks. Firearms handling is a mandatory part of the class, but some facilities where the course are scheduled are not conducive to the discharge of firearms. For example, I have filled in a few times on the archery section of a local Hunter Safety course that were held in an urban high school (a few years ago....obviously). With homes on all sides, they didn't take kids out to the football field to toss clay pigeons or shoot .22's. ;^)

TL

From: Roger Norris ........ No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual ....... Date: 15-Sep-07


"The conflict arrises from the fact that many fathers want to spend time in the woods with their kids during a period that doesn't interfere with their own desire to hunt. "

Thats why I like the youth hunt.

From: Chessbum ........ No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual ....... Date: 19-Sep-07


Chessbum's Supporting Link

Watch this video and think about what we have been discussing here...The reporter said the gun fired the shot that killed the truck driver? Never cleaned a gun myself with a bullet in the gun...I was taught to check for this situation and I know this is covered heavily in the hunter safety classes I have been involved with. JohnV>




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Subject: RE: Hunter apprentice / license purchase

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