McClendon & Sons - Pretty Sad
Arizona
I was going through the website for McClendon & Sons guide service to look at some pictures. What I discovered really upset me. I found the pictures from a hunt that I was on, however the name of the hunter is listed as "John Doe". I know the hunter, I was there and his name is not John Doe.
I was on a hunt in September of 2006. I was a guest hunting with Gary Chiurazzi, the winner of the Commissioner's Elk tag in the Big Game Super Raffle. Now as I am sure some of you are aware, this tag is a big deal in AZ.
Gary was courted hard by several guide services and chose McClendon & Sons. With the reputation that proceeded them, it seemed like the logical choice. What was supposed to be a great experience quickly went south. The hunt turned out to be more about Mr. McClenden needing to harvest a 400+ bull as opposed to Gary getting his first bull. I believe that the bull Gary harvested was indeed a trophy bull. At 6x6 and a score of 376, the remainder of the hunting party agreed with that as well.
The other guides and staff were really good. It seems as though only Mr. McClendon was not satisfied. I find it sad that a guide with the reputation Mr. McClendon has would resort to this type of a thing. I know that based on my experience, no matter what his previous record is, I would not book a hunt with Mr. McClendon.
NYbowtech,
I don't have a dog in the fight so this is just a thought- Unless there are some very cruel parents out there, most of those people aren't named IMG_02X either. Take a breath my man, I'm sure Mr. Chiurazzi will get the recognition he deserves on a great bull.
Longball,
My thing is that the photos from the hunt were edited so some on had to go in and add the headings. The images where they are still named similar to "IMG_02X" are ones that just got posted and have not been edited.
Heck, the Arizona Deer Association (ADA) had a different picture from the hunt that they took and put on the back of an issue of the Deer Times. It took up the whole back cover and said congratulations to Gary and had his name on it.
I know how big of a deal the Commissioner's tag is for elk, I experienced it first hand. I think that if an organization such as the ADA takes the time to acknowledge it, I would think that the at least the guide would too. McClendon made a big deal about the fact that he guided the previous tag holders. I would think that it would be a good marketing tool and he would want other people to know about it.
Is it you or your friend who is upset with John McClendon and outcome of his hunt?
Suggest you or your friend contact McClendon & Sons and let them know who the hunter in the photo is.
Personally, I find it odd that you would come on this forum looking to slam John McClendon because he's not happy with bulls that "only" make B&C minimum. M & S is a mega bull operation, high standards is what keeps them there. I'd assume that is why your raffle tag winning friend hired them. Outfitters who accompany auction/raffle tag holders are expected to produce giants, end of story.
BTW, congrats to your friend on his fine bull.
I always find it interesting when someone comes on the internet and slams others without knowing or not telling the whole story. I don't know the whole story but I knew Gary and there was time constraints on Gary's part of the hunt. Gary didn't have much time to hunt. Also John guided Gary for free to help him achieve his dream bull. The bull that Gary got was a great bull and no one can take that away. This was Gary's first Arizona elk hunt and he was happy to have the help.
Jeff, did you ever think that possibly the site administrator was missing a name for the photo. Hence the John Doe name. I am sure it is not meant as a slight to your friend. I would bet if you contacted them it would be fixed pretty darn quick.
All - and now you know the rest of the story......
MAV
What ever happend to the Bull that thay shot in someones back yard last year?
I have been checking the M&S site off and on for some time. I would think after almost 2 years, things would be in order. I came here to offer an opinion and the share the experience.
I did send an email to the administrator address about a month or so ago. I would think that the Commissioner's Tag hunt recipient would be remembered. My name has been remembered and I was not the one hunting.
Regardless, the whole story is a long thread that would probably not be read all the way through. The purpose of booking a hunt with an outfitter is for the experience as well as harvesting an animal.
You are correct that the hunt was a free service. A free service that was offered, not expected or asked for. It was to be run and dealt with as if there was a paying customer involved.
The hunt was to be an archery hunt. However, due to the early hunt time set up by M&S, it was before the rut and the bulls were not responding to calls. The hunt then became a rifle hunt. The "dream" bull would have been one harvested with a bow, not a borrowed rifle.
The beginning of the hunt was fantastic. I was very appreciative to be able to tag along scouting for bulls to go after. Several bulls had been spotted during the week and reviewed on video with the staff in camp. The group in camp was willing to go after the bull that was finally harvested. Mr. McClendon did not want to go after that bull as he did not feel it was big enough. Once the hunt became more about chasing a certain size bull and nothing else would do, it lost it's meaning. It was if Gary was nothing more than a shooter for a M&S bull.
Mr. McClendon did indeed ask for another week to hunt. While the tag is good for the year, available vacations did not lend themselves to hunting another week. At the time another week was asked for we were 5 days into the hunt.
The bull was indeed a great bull, however the bad experience overshadowed the bull.
I don't know what happened to the hunter, but John got off completly because he wasn't being paid to guide him.
You know what else is sad. The fact that McClendon claims he received no compensation from the guided hunt with the droptine bull, then advertises the poached bull on his website! He was simply going to receive a trophy fee after the fact(and obviously turned it down or paid it back)! Notice the phrase "THE MONSTER HIS ONE OF THE HEVIEST BULLS WE HAVE TAKEN", who is we?(disregarding the fact that someone cant spell) Hopefully the bull has been moved from it's "trophy" location at the porter mtn freezer.
Full local story here: http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=19899657&BRD=2264&PAG=461&dept_id=505961&rfi=15
Pictures from guides website here: http://www.mcclendon-elk-hunts.com/gallery/v/2007+ELK+GALLERY/IMG_0983.jpg.html
Really just a black eye for hunters all the way around...
WhtMtnHunter, Your first and only post to the bowsite is somewhat negative but welcome anyway.
Neck - I'm sorry you fell asleep during your last post. I know many fellow hunters that would very satisfied with receiving a FREE guided hunt by a premier guide service such as M&S and NOT have to pay a trophy fee for a great bull with a lot of character. If the HUNTER that took the bull is dissatisfied with M&S, why doesn't the HUNTER request the the photo be removed from the website? Just my $.02.
MAV
Great post there WhtMtnHunter. I found the articles all very interesting, yet not surprising. I also find it funny that after all that M&S still has the pictures on the very first page of their site.
As far as the "Hunter" goes, I believe that he has put the experience behind him. When I saw the pictures on the site that still are shown that way I decided to post and speak up. I am sure that if the "Hunter" wanted to take an issue with M&S and their site, he would not hesitate.
If I go along and help without compensation, can I claim the animal as one of my biggest also? Or what about the local guy that told them where is was and exactly how to hunt it?
Just to set the record straight… Jeff is correct, I have put the entire episode behind me. For some reason, my being called "John Doe" on McClendon's site really bugs him, but that's his thing. I could care less what McClendon thinks, and I think it speaks to his smallness to resort to such juvenile tactics. That being said, as it relates to all of John's guides, his sons, everybody - top notch people. There's no doubt that the entire crew lives and breathes elk, and that's what makes them perhaps the top guide outfit in the state. If I was a trophy hunter seeking a world record elk they would be my only choice. But that sword cuts both ways…
I'm not a trophy hunter, never have been. I'm an archery-only hunter who has been fortunate enough to tag a couple P&Y deer in my days, nothing more. I haven't hunted with a rifle for over 20 years. My hunt with McClendon was supposed to be an archery hunt, and John picked the dates. Like most people, I had one week of vacation so I trusted he would set us up when my chances of success with archery equipment would be greatest. I don't know what happened, but on my hunt the bulls were vocal but they weren't coming to calls - there was no way we'd ever get close enough for a bow shot. As a result, my "dream archery hunt" turned into a "let's kill a world record bull with a borrowed rifle" hunt. Was I disappointed? Extremely. For me, killing *any* bull with a bow was more important than killing a record bull with a firearm.
I don't agree that my time was "limited", except to say I don't have the luxury of taking all the time needed to find a bull that suited the guide rather than the hunter. John did ask me about coming back after our fifth day, but only because he wasn't happy with the 376" bull we'd put to bed the night before. I was thrilled with him, and more than happy with the results. I think the thing that put the biggest damper on the hunt was the fact that even while John's sons and the other guides were clearly thrilled with the bull, it was evident that John was disappointed that I'd "settled".
And yes, the hunt was free - but I thought it was my hunt. I didn't solicit it, he offered. If I'd have known that I was merely the vehicle for McClendon to claim another "world record" bull on a commissioners tag I'd have accepted one of the other half-dozen or so offers I had for free hunts.
That's a beautiful Bull Gary. I hope you get a chance in the future to do it the way you wanted. With your bow..... Terry
No worries... life's too short to dwell on such things. Besides, I got to stretch the limbs a bit during the day... :)
Honestly, I had more fun chasing the rabbits!
IMO if you had more fun chasing rabbits, then you were robbed of a once in a lifetime elk hunt. Sorry to hear that.
I can think of a lot of "what if's" and "you should have's." I choose to let it go as you have. You did take a B&C bull, something very few people will ever do. I will say this, nothing is free. The other five or six oufitters offering a "free" hunt expected their names to be blasted all over the web with your 400+ bull.
I agree Redbeard.Some of these guides forget that. They get sidetracked in the quest for that 400" feather in their cap nad forget about everything else that is important in someones once in a lifetime hunt.
It is what it is. The guide service did what they do. The claim and sympathy about being "pushed to use a borrowed gun" is not on the guide. The choice to settle is the hunter's.
It's all about having a great time.
Anyone can kill an elk....but getting close with a bow...priceless.
And...good luck next time, with a bow! REAL HUNTING.
What was the trophy fee on the rabbit(s)?
MAV
Just an FYI for the bowsite sensative types - I was kidding in my previous post...
MAV
AlphaHuntr,
Not looking for any sympathy, simply explaining the circumstances of the hunt. I would argue that the "claim" about being pushed to use a rifle is indeed on the guide, since our agreement was an archery hunt. The guide is supposed to know better than anyone how to get the client what he wants, so when McClendon picked the dates the last thing I did was argue - I put in for the time off. Did I have to use the rifle? Of course not - I could have turned around and gone home, but after seeing the amount of effort that so many people had expended to find another world class bull for (what turned out to be) McClendon's web page the last thing I wanted to do was seem ungrateful - especially since I wasn't paying. Also I don't have unlimited time to hunt, and no matter what that week off was gone. Even though I had a tag good for a year, I wasn't about to spend another years vacation chasing a bull to satisfy the guide - there's deer to hunt! As I said earlier, I'm no trophy hunter, and I'd have been happy with a cow in exchange for a chance to fill my tag with archery equipment. I just didn't realize until it was almost over that we were on a hunt for McClendon, not me. But as you put it, it is what it is. Bottom line, we had an OK time and nobody dies so I guess we all came out ahead. :)
2 thorns for McClendons.... this and then the elk near private property.
Seems their ethics need a little work.
I think part of the problem is their drive to make this a full business, has to take these chances. As long as they have the time to find big bulls, they will compete and can afford these hits to their business. Perhaps the ..... hey I'll guide for free should not be allowed?
Still, it's all about money. Too bad.
I think the "free" hunts for commissioners tag holders will always be something to contend with - I was approached by approximately 6 different guide operations who wanted to guide my hunt free. I think part of the problem is that these tags mean different things to different people - to me, it was a chance to hunt for elk almost anywhere at almost anytime, and for McClendon (I assume)it was another chance to add a "world class" bull to his bag. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but I think McClendon made a mistake assuming I was in it for nothing less than a 400"+ bull, and I made a mistake by not stating up front that the size of the antlers wasn't as important to me as the hunt itself. I did mention this midway through the hunt after we'd passed on a couple of nice bulls, and John's reaction surprised me - and also opened my eyes to what we were really after.
As far as being able to "afford these hits", I think you're probably right. I think it's a shame but there's enough guys out there who share McClendon's passion for record bulls that bending or breaking the law to bag one is acceptable collateral damage. It's a sad testament to what's really important to some. I think it's a travesty that he was able to squeak out of a guilty plea in the Show Low incident because he "wasn't being paid so he wasn't guiding the hunter." What a crock. That guy and McClendon didn't end up there together by cosmic design, McClendon GUIDED him there. I'd love to know what the hunter thinks after paying big bucks for that auction tag and going home with nothing more than a game law conviction to show for it.
Probably the best lesson to be learned from all this is to COMMUNICATE. Find a guide willing to give you the kind of hunt you want. Not doing that was 100% my fault.
I can't imagine anyone "selling" me on why I should use a gun if I came to bowhunt...jeeze.
Redbeard I have not agreed with an opinion more strongly. Your comparisons are right on. When I see pictures of world class elk these days I am not very impressed , because most of the hunters are guided to them. If it is a bull that was taken without a guide, and I have judged the hunter wrong, than that is the doubt that has been created. Just like baseball records due to steroids like you said. I feel that guides are an industry that reflects badly on all hunters and the sport itself. With the TV shows, videos etc. To the Bambi loving croud, their perception has to be even worse than mine. With the constant attack on our hunting rights, this lead the hunter to slaughter and make big money doing it, is not going to help protect the future of this sport. Or in my case a family tradition. We are a family that likes to challenge ourselves, one on one with nature and OUR abilities, not a guides. Again, I couldn't have agreed more with your opinions. It is refreshing to know there are hunters out there that appreciate the chase as well as the trophy.
"It seems that nobody on the other forum gave a dang about fair chase and made all kinds of excuses."
Not exactly. Most of the guys on the "other forum" simply stated that B&C or P&Y's definition of "fair chase" is not necessarily the ONLY definition.
Maybe an illustration will help.
Hunter A hunts private land in GA. He has cameras on every trail leading from bedding areas to a well used feed plot. He put a mineral lick and a jug of C'mere Deer at the edge of the field where the trail most commonly travelled by the biggest buck in the area, according to the trail camera photos. He studies weather patterns and wind direction on the internet to pick the best day to sit, and based on the time-stamps from his trail cameras, he knows about what time the the deer will be coming by. He ends up taking the deer he has been after.
Hunter B gets out of school on Friday and heads to the rolling hills South of Tucson with his buddy and his longbow. On Saturday morning, they spot a nice buck moving along the edge of a draw. They watch it until it beds. He stalks the deer for two hours while his buddy keeps watch and keeps him up to date via radio if anything changes with the buck. His final stalk is a belly crawl through 50 yards of cactus and cat claw. He gets into position, waits until the deer stands and makes a good shot.
Now according to B&C and P&Y, one of these hunters followed the rules of fair chase and the other did not. What do you think?
Food for thought, anyway.
Jason
Ya can tell it's a hypothetical scenario Jason.... A longbow hunter using a radio.... I think Not.... :-) Good comparison though..... I'll place another vote for getting rid of record books... No matter how well intentioned they were in the beginning I do not see them contributing anything positive to our sport today.... Terry
Its sad to hear your hunt didn't go as you had planned GC. You harvested a great bull, congrats on that. Bad memories hang on for awhile I know. Hopefully in time the bad taste will go away.
Redbeard-
Your baseball and steroids analogy is flawed- STEROIDS ARE ILLEGAL in everyday society regardless of what the MLB rule books say. That's something the game needs to deal with.
Your little crusade is tiring....I don't even use radios but it's not up to me and certainly not up to you to decide how someone should hunt if no state wildlife laws are broken. if its that important for you to follow the rules that a group of lying, corrupt, holier than thou egomaniacs have put together- knock youself out. but damn brother, lose the soap box........
Uh Oh...this is gonna get messy.
Longball, are you stating that B&C and P&Y are corrupt and lying orginizations? If so, please explain.
sounds like Longball just dropped the bar of soap...
Longball,
Redbeard never once stated that radios were illegal. Dude your just bent from another thread on another site,,,,. Chris is one of the most ethical people I have ever met, and not just when it comes to hunting but everyday life. Sometimes I wonder myself.
He is not on a soapbox but simply stating a fact that certain things are legal but not considered fair chase and trying to educate some of the younger and uneducated hunters out there today..
I say great! If you use radios who cares just dont enter them into P&Y or B&C thats all ,,. Bottom line brother -- to each his own,, redbeard is not calling anyone out or slandering anyone, just stating a fact.
Ryan
Redbeard, You are right on the money!--1Longbow
Thanks for welcome swivelhead. I'll try to be more positive in the future and I think there are actually some positive aspects of the droptine incident. I don't condone hunting private property or shooting too close to occupied structures but this illustrated a big problem with the unit. There are homes everywhere scattered throughout the unit. If you were to stand where the droptine bull dropped and looked 360 degrees you would easily count 30+ homes within sight. I know the rule is 1/4 mile, but today's high power rifles travel much further than that. Legal or not, it is just dangerous to shoot in many parts of 3B. Game and fish has had headaches dealing with homeowners in the unit for years. I am not saying this incident was the only cause for their management changes, it just illustrated the challenges that they face in the area. You may have noticed that there are no more rifles hunts in 3B at all, except for maybe general bear and lion. In my opinion, this will have a huge positive impact on the unit in general and the quality of hunts here. I like hunting places that aren't rifle hunted. There are still muzzy hunts and archery hunts, short range weapons, and that should improve quality in the long run.
I think the whole incident can be summarized by the 3 G's--Greed, Guides, and Gutshots. Hopefully it is behind us and hunter public relations will be on the upswing.
Thanks for welcome swivelhead. I'll try to be more positive in the future and I think there are actually some positive aspects of the droptine incident. I don't condone hunting private property or shooting too close to occupied structures but this illustrated a big problem with the unit. There are homes everywhere scattered throughout the unit. If you were to stand where the droptine bull dropped and looked 360 degrees you would easily count 30+ homes within sight. I know the rule is 1/4 mile, but today's high power rifles travel much further than that. Legal or not, it is just dangerous to shoot in many parts of 3B. Game and fish has had headaches dealing with homeowners in the unit for years. I am not saying this incident was the only cause for their management changes, it just illustrated the challenges that they face in the area. You may have noticed that there are no more rifles hunts in 3B at all, except for maybe general bear and lion. In my opinion, this will have a huge positive impact on the unit in general and the quality of hunts here. I like hunting places that aren't rifle hunted. There are still muzzy hunts and archery hunts, short range weapons, and that should improve quality in the long run.
I think the whole incident can be summarized by the 3 G's--Greed, Guides, and Gutshots. Hopefully it is behind us and hunter public relations will be on the upswing.
+1 redbeard, to each his own, just go by the long established guidelines the organization gives for you to use its name as a benchmark.
JB
Longball, Because in some peoples world I guess the end justifies the means. Just because you're not doing it, somebody else is and there isn't a law against it it doesn't make it right when it's going on. That's why we have guys putting corn feeders out, baiting game, planting food plots in national forests, group hunting, running animals off from other tag holders for their clients and friends and in some cases for a fee, tracking animals 24/7, using radios on animals,1000 yard rifle shots, 150 yard archery shots etc! Success by any means is acceptable! Hunting is starting to erode it's values some what like society today and the fact that many have this me first attitude and damn the other guy approach is largely responsible for it. If somebody doesn't speak out how will it change?
Sticking our heads in the sand doesn't work because that's exactly how we got where we are! If we would have enforced current immigration laws we wouldn't be in that mess either you just can't look the other way! Oh I know we'll pass a law. How about putting an end to this type of crap so we don't have to pass a damn law and putting our best foot forward actually promoting hunting ethics from within. Seems to me that type of idea worked very soundly for the last 75+ years but all the sudden anything goes! Maybe a few more soapboxes is just what we need along with stricter enforcement by our F&G. Then maybe there'll still be hunting for future generations. More success only leads to less opportunity no matter how you slice the pie and that's something that isn't going to change in the forseeable future.
AZHH,
Bro I'm not bent, the analogy is flawed. I never said radios are illegal, steroids are illegal which is what Redbeard was comparing to the use of radios. I'm sure he is an ethical man, I'm sure you are too- In my own twisted little world I'd like to think no one has better hunting or life ethics than I do but I'm sure someone out there does. hell for all I know its you two monkeys so that puts us as the top 3, everyone else has some catching up to do I guess. I'm just so tired of the "he-said she-said, my way or the highway" circus. Just because its different doesn't make it wrong............
Skeets, The only person I can hold accountable is myself and the same goes for everyone else. Every outfit has bad stories about them and the good ones. So which do beleive? I've been around long enough to know that perception isn't always reality. Until the day comes that we experience something first hand, none of us should ever pass judgment based on anothers opinion. Unfortunately passing judgment seems to be our new national pastime.
And yes, the books are a joke. they have pretty numbers so everyone can describe the size of an animal without seeing a picture BUT, its not a level playing field. All of the insanity Skeetsbo mentioned above can get an animal in print but something so trivial as communication is a no-no. regardless of the fact that if you're close enough to put an arrow in something and you hear a voice in your ear, odds are your quarry can too....A compound bow as opposed to a longbow is a far greater advantage. That is something worthy of comparing to baseball- You use a wooden bat and I'll use an aluminum one. Let's see who hits it further......
Hey fellow hunters, I am making my first post ever on any and all hunting sites. I dont sit around and read this stuff because there is more negative input than possitive. I was sent this thread from one of my guides. It is so sad of what the Internet has done to the hunting world, there is more negative input than positive, its kind of like the 6 o clock news, if it's not bad news then it's not news at all. Kind of depressing. I am 59 years old and born and raised in AZ, I have been hunting all my life. My dad really never took the time to spend quality time with me other than hunting and I guess thats why I fell in love with the outdoors and hunting. My first rifle was a Winchester 25-35. It was a simple time then, we did not have all the new equiptment that we have today and it was just about going out and enjoying the hunt. I had no optics, I would always just go to next ridge to look over thinking that buck or bull would be there they say the grass is greener on the other side of the hill. My hunting equipt. included a rifle, knife and a pocket full of bullets, pretty simple but fun. I started bowhunting in the mid 70's with a recurve bow and really fell for the bowhunting and still love it to this day. now in regards to this thread, as far as John Doe the hunter it was an oversight on my part, you see my son does the posting to our site and I guess when he posted the pics he forgot Gary Churazzi name, I really dont spend much time on my site or anyone else's so I appologize to Gary and will have this changed or his picture removed if he would like that, he has my phone number and can call me anytime he wants. As far as doing this hunt I was only trying to give back, I already had booked the Auction tag hunter and really did not need this hunt for recognition, It actually turned out to be quite stressful, I have donated this hunt on 3 different occations thinking it would be a way to give back to our State's hunting organizations and to the hunting community. I do encourage all to be a little more thoughtful of others and lets try to keep things on the positive side, my advice is if you dont have something good to say then dont say anything at all. Good Hunting.
what??? Stick to elk hunting, because that didn't make much sense...
Made sense to me.
The adage "no good deed goes unpunished" applies here.
John I could not agree with you more, there are some pretty important issues to be concerned about but some people get wrapped up in the petty stuff. The internet and these forums could be a valuable tool to combat the anti's but were are to concerned if someone hires a guide. At least yo had the huevos to use your real name.
I'd love to hunt with John and Levi. Sad to see this , but with all things, theres always two sides to every story and many a time , we will not and could never understand as it's just not us in the circumstances. Gary C, congrats on your bull , truely a dream bull, sorry to hear of the bad feelings, but sounds like you have built that bridge and have pressed on and good for you doing so. If I ever win the lotto , I'm calling John McClendon booking the next Govs tag for elk and calling Tony from Pronghorn Guides Service and getting that antelope tag too....
No doubt that if you want to kill a world record elk John's your man!
I'd really prefer to make a great shot on a cow elk with a longbow at close range. Nothing wrong with going after the big boys, but it's overcooked.
Some of you guys can back to Oprah now. ;-)
Looks like Malik wont be hunting in AZ for 5 years! And it cost him another 15K!
Don't these hunting privileges also transfer to other western states? Meaning he wont be hunting anywhere for a while?
Link attached to full story
Read the story, it says 27 states.
Holy Cow, look how close the house is! I used to have the same crap when I lived in Vail(AZ). Came home to find a couple idiots target shooting in my " front yard", which while natural landscape was still private property, and 150 yards from my house, which they drove past to start shooting.
In this case, shooting high powered rifles, it is pretty scarey, and downright irresponsable of all parties involved. Ever wonder why people post their property against hunting?
Was that elk killed right there where it lies and the picture was taken? If yes, then that is rediculous. Looks more like a family pet than a wild elk.
So what did they do to the guy that was guiding him?
Nothing, he walked free becuause there was no paper trail showing he had been paid for the hunt. I wonder how much of a tip he would have gotten if it had not blown up in his face?
Let me get this right If your hunting with a guide in Az and he takes you were the big bull lives. And hes in someones back yard and you kill him The guide is off the hook. It seams to me that the guide should have never taken him there in the first place. When a group of guys decide to rob the bank every body in the group is a bank robber. Why is it diffrent in this case?
I have no idea why this turned out that way especially when AZGFD is falling all over themselves trying to bust much less high profile hunters and guides for things less obvious than this.
Lots of people got screwed on this one. What a cluster-F.
McClendon should get the book thrown at him... how he can escape scott-free when he orchestrated this whole debacle is incredible.
It would be interesting to know if the bull was initially wounded where it WAS legal to shoot/hunt. Certainly not legal to shoot where it all ended. What the heck were they thinking? AZG&F commission was heavy handed IMO. The man did have an elk tag. Malik was in the hands of a top outfitter from AZ. Loss of a 130K elk tag, 15K for the elk and five years no hunting is out of line for shooting too near an occuppied residence. Dove hunters convicted of the same infraction usually get a $150.00 fine from a local judge. Mr. Malik got shafted by AZ G&F and McClendon & sons, what a shame.
Suspect Mr. McClendon will face a substantial civil suit via Mr. Malik. McClendon deserves whatever the civil courts decide, probably what G&F had in mind for McClendon & Sons.
It would be interesting to know if the bull was initially wounded where it WAS legal to shoot/hunt. Certainly not legal to shoot where it all ended. What the heck were they thinking? AZG&F commission was heavy handed IMO. The man did have an elk tag. Malik was in the hands of a top outfitter from AZ. Loss of a 130K elk tag, 15K for the elk and five years no hunting is out of line for shooting too near an occuppied residence. Dove hunters convicted of the same infraction usually get a $150.00 fine from a local judge. Mr. Malik got shafted by AZ G&F and McClendon & sons, what a shame.
Suspect Mr. McClendon will face a substantial civil suit via Mr. Malik. McClendon deserves whatever the civil courts decide, probably what G&F had in mind for McClendon & Sons.
I think that there is a HUGE difference between shooting a shotgun vs. a high powered rifle near a residential area. I know of a guy who shot a bull 390 yards from an occupied house near Show Low and had a $6000 fine, along with the loss of hunting privelages.
In the case of the McClendon hunter, if he shot that elk, even to finish it off, that close to that residence and in plain sight, he got what he deserved. How would you like to live there, and either be inside, or in your yard, and have the report of a center fire that close scare the beejesus out of you? I've been on the other side, and it is scary.
In answer to a couple of the last questions asked, here are the answers. The judge ruled that the first shot was legal, more than 1/4 mile from any residence. After the first shot The bull ran approx. 600 yards and laid down by the residence (The media doesnt mention this fact they want to portray that the bull was first shot close to the house). Although the bull was fatally wounded (liver shot) The G&F officer advised Mr Malik to finish the bull off. There could have been several other alternatives. 1. It was suggested to get the bull up and run him away from the house and then finish him. 2. There really didnt have to be a second shot, the bull would have eventually died but would have suffered for an unknown amount of time It was the second shot or finishing shot that Malik was cited for, he got a bum judgement. Hind site being 20 20 I guess he should have just let the bull suffer and die where he lay. I think this thread has been chewed up and spit out to many times, most of the post now have already been posted earlier in the thread, I also do not think it is right to use a persons name or company name as the heading for a post, I thought they had rules and regs against this kind of use.
"The G&F officer advised Mr Malik to finish the bull off." I don't know the source of this information, but if it is true, Mr. Malik really got screwed by Game & Fish and the State. Really makes me sick.
Mark
John, if that was the case, how can the GF officer site him if he advised him to shoot the animal where it was? Wouldn't that be entrapment? And, if the Judge had ruled that the first shot was legal, how can the Commission pass the judgments that they did? I know they are somewhat heavy handed , but something is not right between the information you have posted and what was apparently brought to the hearing. Lots of unanswered questions here still.
Well if you would like to check the court records you will see the first shot was ruled a legal shot. This case is under appeal in regards to the entrapment that you speak of. I had one of the G&F law enforcement officers tell me that Malik should have not been found guilty because the first shot was a fatal shot and the second shot was not absolutely necessary, but at the end of the day the judge ruled differently, that is the reason that this decisiion has been appealed.
John, if that is the case I truly hope the appeal goes through in favor of Malik, I think a review should be done on how the GF officer handled it, because that would sure constitute entrapment. I dont understand how the Commission can make a judgement that contradicts a judges ruling, but, what do I know.They are their own entity, I guess.
My earlier posts were based upon my own expererience in a similar situation where people violated the 1/4 mile law, and trespassed on my own property,so I am sensitive to the rights of property owners. Seems that the GF officer should have contacted the property owners when he arrived? The media article does portray hunters is a less than desirable light. Hopefully, justice will prevail. Dave
If none of you have ever been involved or witnessed any trial that G&F is involved in, you know that you are unconditionally guilty of all charges long before you arrive. Over the years I have watched a good number of "trials" while waiting for some other issue to be presented at Commission meetings, as well as some experience watching trials where G&F was prosecuting in other courts. Due process and your rights as an American do not even come close to existing when G&F is involved. It's appalling actually.
I have never personally hired a guide for any North American hunting, but when the drawing gods eventually see fit to let me cash in my 12+ bonus points for elk, and if I can possibly afford it (which unfortunately I probably couldn't...), I would strongly consider hiring John as my guide.
Marvin
Seems like this thread is a lot like the Game and Fish judgement and nobody posting has any facts. Yet some people's names have been trashed. Lot of panties in a wad here!
Thanks Dave & Marvin I do appreciate your thoughtfulness and consideration. I do also hope justice will prevail and this whole thing will be cleared up in the near future. Good Luck in 09 John
