Worst of Both Worlds
Illinois
As a resident of Illinois, I am beginning to feel like I am getting the shaft both coming, and going!
Each year I apply for hunting tags out west, and each year these states further tighten the screws on average joe hunter.......me. Oregon and Utah changed regulations to where my 14 years of bonus points are now wasted. Cutting NR tag numbers from 10% to 5% to 2 1/2%. During that same time they were happy to increase the cost of applying 300%..........for the priveledge to NOT HUNT. The same is to a lesser degeree for Wyoming, Nevada & Arizona. CA & WA already made rules impossible for NR's.
Only New Mexico, Montana and Colorado seem to respect and maintain NR opportunity.
However, now I hear these proposals to expand opportunities for NR here in Illinois with this 2nd NR buck tag, and NR youth hunts.
What is wrong with this picture? By living in Illinois it seems I am getting screwed room all sides!
By the way, if you're not aware of what is happening out west, ya really ought to check out Utah sometime. The poster child of the King's hunting rule, pimping out all our NR public land tags to the highest bidder. (Illustration courtesy of MM)
Maybe this will catch on here in Illinois.
Well...we/you ARE! (from all sides getting the shaft)....Politics at it's finest and all about money! The old saying that was going around awhile back: "only the rich will be hunting"....has some truth to that!
Is it now because we have 'too many hunters' possibly? Supply and Demand has jacked up the prices and availability to hunt. For what ever reason it all changed it is still all about Politics and Money! The little guy get's left in the dust!
I was always glad there were GOLFERS and NASCAR and FOOTBALL fans, etc....at least they weren't in 'the woods'!But now it seems like a lot of 'people' are invading the hunting scene. It is very crowded in those hunting places today! There's only so much room and so many animals....
The 70's & 80's & 90's are gone!...how sad!
I agree ILArcher. I've been in the preference point game as well. You ever get the feeling that 'you can't get there from here?'
Colorado used to just 'borrow' your money for a few months and be happy with the interest on it. Now they want a 'preference point fee'. And like you mentioned, Colorado is one of the easy ones.
I've been under the impression that we need to reciprocate for a long time. I don't care about Missouri's or Indiana's relatively cheap and easy tags that everyone wants to bring up. I don't want to go across the line to kill a smaller whitetail than I have on my own property. I care about something that I can't kill here. I don't get on CO's state Bowsite and batch and moan about it, but some on here sure like to try to convince all that the hunter from New Jersey should have the same opportunity in IL that I do.
2.5% of the tags to NR's and a drawing in IL for them. 20% of these tags are allowed to be used on State lands. All could be used on Federal lands.
"2.5% of the tags to NR's and a drawing in IL for them. 20% of these tags are allowed to be used on State lands. All could be used on Federal lands."
Now that is a permit structure I could support!
The 2nd tag for NR's has been shot down. Hap
Hap,
Hell would freeze over before any of the western states would even PROPOSE increasing nonresident opportunity.
ilArcher- non-residents can get two buck tags now. one gun, one bow. which would you rather have a guy with two bow tags or a guy with one of each?
ONE of each! NR Gun Tag is by 'draw'....after the resident draw!....the other way it'd be 2 bow tags AND a gun tag for either sex for NR. (maybe??)
I want gun tags reduced in the amount they sell! The antlerless season needs to be done away with in January's Late Winter Gun Season in most areas.
We DON'T have too many deer! (in most areas) We have a deer shortage and a loss of quantity and quality. Mostly due to too many firearm seasons and permits.
I can't imagine how a far left blue state is ever going to get along with archery groups. That's what goes on in IL. The whole affair is just a game here. The political arrangement in red states favors the bowhunter agenda.
We're screwed.
2-0-2,
Headhunter beat me to the punch.
On a personal note, I only hunt public land and currently there are zero decent NR gun tags left for the NR after the 1st draw, so it is not a factor to me. Regardless, the state attitude/trend is what I am pointing out.
scarne, The theft of public land out west is to the degree of being unethical and pushing illeqal. It's already beyond "taking care of their own". Some day soon the states will push to the point the feds will step in and end the madness. Mark my words. It's federal land we paid for and own.
Admittedly, I’m a little confused here. On one hand, you seem to take issue with tight NR limits in other states, but then you seem to want to do the same thing here. That appears a little contradictory to me.
And yes, we all pay for that federal land. We can hike in it, camp in it, and enjoy it all we want. But the animals we wish to hunt there are owned and managed by the states, so they have the right to decide who gets to kill their animals.
JRW,
There's nothing confusing. Go back to the first post. It says it all very clearly. If you can't understand that, there's no use.
As to the owneship of the game, your argument is the oldest in the book and has never held water. Even been challenged in court in the past as borderline at best. Overturned back and forth in Wyoming, Nevada and Utah over the years. Once NR biatch enough things will change permanently. It's only a matter of time.
To me, it's fundamentally right that one should have higher priority for access to public hunting opportunities in his own state over other states. Accordingly then, in any given state, residents should have priority over NRs. For the most part this principle is practiced nationwide. That's one reason NR licenses, permits and access fees are higher than those for residents in practically every state. If you follow the logic proposed earlier about federal land belonging to everyone in the country equally with equal hunting privileges, it would follow that you can't charge one person more to hunt it than anyone else ...which CLEARLY ISN'T THE CASE!
So, as long as NRs are afforded a reasonable opportunity to exercise hunting privileges, residents can and should be afforded some level of priority over them. This happens in most states, but in some better than others, and has withstood most legal challenges. The problem with Illinois is that it doesn't value its citizens' rights and privileges as much as it does dollars from whatever source they can be obtained.
headhunter- after the first draw non-residents can apply for a gun tag and in most couties they will get one. if i worried about the bucks being shot by non-residents i would much rather have a guy trying it with a bow verses gun! as far as the state goes they need the money and would get more with two bow tags since the gun tag is only half price-go figure! on another note since they aren't selling all of the bow tags maybe they would if they allowed guys to buy two! i do find it quite unbelievable how so many residents of illinois want restrictions on numbers of tags here but beach when the western states do it to them! the same guys beach about outfitters but use them out west! so if you don't use or never have used an outfitter out west you can beach about the outfitters here. if you don't complain about limitations for tags out west you can complain about such limitations here! otherwise shut your pie hole!
2-0-2 Read my post above....I'm not on CO, UT, WY, bowsites or any other for that matter batching about their unfair tag system that doesn't gaurantee me a trophy management tag every year. Quite the contrary, I agree with their tag systems. I just wish ours was a mirror copy of theirs. I don't care if the state needs more money, this isn't about money to me. Chicago Mass Transit system shouldn't have a bearing on how the DNR issues permits.
"as long as NRs are afforded a reasonable opportunity to exercise hunting privileges"........Reasonable obviously being the debatable key word here. The more states push the limit, the more lawsuits there have been. I have no problem with states giving R preference, but there's a limit to everything.
As mentioned, it's only a matter of time.
ILArcher,
You're right; there's no use. So I'll leave you to your contradictory rant and simply snicker from a distance. Enjoy. :)
JRW, Nobody else seems to have your opinion. They read it loud and clear. It's very simple. I'm the one snickering. :)
I'd rather be right than follow the pack. Still snickering. :)
'two-oh-two'....said: "otherwise shut your pie hole"!
I hope you weren't talking to ME that way!
My complaint isn't about non-res hunters in Illinois or any other State! It's about too many tags...equals taking out too many animals from whatever State! It's NOT about the Money or The Politics....It's about our Big Game Resources in these areas! The animals we all hunt have to be protected for quantity and quality! If "WE" destroy them....well, you know that answer!
As for my complaint, it isn't in regards to being dissatisfied about having to draw as an NR for western state hunts. I agree with it and think to do so is fair. To the contrary, my beef is actually about less and less resident access and opportunity for quality deer hunting in our own state.
Furthermore, to make the comparison between western states and Illinois public access is really talking about two different worlds, if you look at the amount of public land out west compared to the measly 2% here. If we look at the number of permits as a percentage of public land opportunity, I'm sure we'd find that we definitely are affording NRs disproportionately high access compared to western states. ...and even more if you factor in the affect of NRs on private land access through leasing, outfitting and such.
herm- how many is too many? out of the 20,000 tags sold -what was the success? after many years of hearing you rant about there not being as many deer as there used to be it finally happened here. i did see a dramatic decline in the deer numbers this year. i have no idea what could have caused this as we have very few non-residents hunting and zero outfitters! early season, even with the corn up, the october lull and warm weather i saw more bucks than i had last year but late season we just weren't seeing any where near the numbers we had in the past. i planted 10 acres of corn and five acres of beans and the deer have hardly touched them. i had a local farmer pick five acres of the corn in early january because i knew the deer wouldn't need it! herm- the pie hole comment was only directed at anybody who complains about non-resident numbers here being too high then beachs about the western states not allowing enough, or complains about outfitters here then uses one out west! i don't think that applies to you!
What is Bow Hunting success in Illinois??...25% maybe? (I haven't a clue). But it's success by how many Tags Sold in numbers....not by hunters one on one. (I think)....re: I had 6 tags and I killed "0" animals! (my choice) We all have a 'choice' in what we shoot and what we do to and for the herd! Non-Res and Res. alike! I'm all for conserving and protecting our Quality and Quantity for future generations.
Outfitters....in any State or Province...is all about MONEY! It's a business and some protect the resourse (the animals) and some don't care as long as they got YOUR money!....same with the hunters as individuals!
I guess I Care Too Much about OUR animals we hunt. For without them...there'd be NO HUNT!
I'm glad (kind of and kind not of) you saw a decline where you hunt '2-oh-2' ....we all need to realize what IS and what ISN'T in order to protect our hunting now and into the future! What IT WAS....isn't what IT IS NOW where I/We hunt!
Turkey almost non-existant now....deer numbers down by 70% (I think) and quality in that local herd is way down to 3 to 5 big bucks now (if that). This has been the worest season I have ever had as for deer and turkey sightings.....I just can't justify shooting any more critters when the population is THAT LOW! (that's just me....anyone else would). Tags to use and animals to kill just because they have the tags!....That's DNR's fault....but the hunter has to take the blame too.
"bowriter"....John Sloan says: "the deer population runs in a 3 year cycle"..........I hope he's right and this was the low end and we have better seasons ahead SOON!....disease? too many tags? for whatever reason something happened to the local herd where we hunt. I think it's too many hunters and too many tags for a small unregulated area surrounding us!
Happy Valentines Day everyone! Be NICE to your Loved One today! -}}}}}}}}}------------>
"Buckhunter"....and 10% of the bow hunters, killed 90% of the deer harvested! (back in the day). Too many 'shooters' today and not enough 'hunters'!..jmho
You know the #1 reson that the herd is going downhill today is that it was overpromoted yesterday. I sure am gald I didn't play a role in that, and those of you that did should make damn sure your house ain't made of glass before you chuck rocks.
Starbux & ILArcher: I guess some people just can't understand that you are simply looking for a level playing field. I personally have never tried to hunt out west, but I can understand what you mean.
I feel sure that all this deer herd decline and demise did not happen by design in the beginning...it just happened. I was a promoter in the earlier stages of IL but I had no idea that a tsunami of hunters would follow at some point. No one else did either. Blame everyone who went to the big buck shows in Springfield and displayed (exploited) their big mounts. Blame me, blame technologists, blame Tim Wamsley, blame IDNR, blame manufactures, blame outdoor writers, blame book writers, blame Fred Bear, blame Howard Hill and his safari productions. Where do you stop? Who really are the one's to blame? Let's figger that out then let's hang'em! Of course the consumers of all that marketing stuff are harmless...right?
The blame game may make some of us feel better but it won't fix anything. Truth is...we all played a role in one fashion or another and hind sight is 20/20. But I have headline news...may as well adjust to the new era and enjoy it because we aren't going back in time.
BowMad, you can only explain something so many different ways. Some people just find it difficult to look at things from a different perspective.
BowMad23,
"I guess some people just can't understand that you are simply looking for a level playing field. I personally have never tried to hunt out west, but I can understand what you mean."
Bingo.
Guess that's too confusing a concept for JRW to process?
I think the tsunami of hunters are going to be headed to Ohio in the next few yrs...already started. IL. has about priced itself out of the game for what's left and Ohio is a bargain with some very fine bucks.
Hopefully if will happen soon enough.
Nope, it’s a very easy concept to grasp. Other easy concepts are:
If you complain about NR restrictions in other states, don’t expect people not to laugh (or chuckle) when you advocate NR restrictions in your own state.
States have the right to manage their resources as they see fit.
If you don’t like how a state handles NRs, either hunt somewhere else or move there and become a resident yourself. But crying about it on the Bowsite won’t do anything more than burn through your dwindling Kleenex supply.
...and one more easy concept: State your opinion here (or anyone else, for that matter), and there will be no shortage of folks attempting to one up your opinion with their's. ;-)
"We are unlikely to resolve the significant problems we face at the same level of thinking with which we created them." -Albert Einstein-
Most of the hunters who come to IL would be lazy by comparison to what they must deal with to hunt in Western states. That's one reason they come here, IL is easy to hunt in terms of physical demands. Big bucks, flat land, cozy lodges, mild weather, FULL meals, and all you have'ta do to get drunk is to walk into the bars sitting on every corner of podunk. Even arriving up in high country on horseback is very demanding, not to mention you can hardly breath up there causing sleeping to be very difficult while watching your chest pump up and down. The hunt never stops out west, not even after you kill something if you are so fortunate. Here many who kill a deer the first day clear out to return to Wall St. to do more important and demanding things. Suits me...with no refund provisions.
Walking or being dropped off at a treestand with food and drink is not very demanding. Even being sick and old at 66, I can do that. Give the guide a tip and he will even process and cape your deer for you and find someone to take your meat so you don't have to handle it or transport it. Ahhhh....such a "challenge" IL bowhunting is. That challenge is what bow hunting is all about....right?
Sometimes you can even find humor in the truth. :]
