jamaro@home's Link
30inchbuck, funny to watch you go around to hunting sites and defend Big Game Forever (BGF) and Sportsmen for Fish and Wildlife (SFW) where anyone might post a link to my blogs or my posts. Was not going to post on this thread, but given you opened the door, I figure I may as well accept your offer to join in.
Seems you have a problem with anyone, or any site, where people speak out about what they see happening to hunting by the actions of SFW/BGF; where people don't blindly follow the propaganda promoted and posted by the organization for which you are an officer of a state chapter. Same seems to apply if some contradicts the stories published by SFW’s partner organization, Big Game Forever (BGF).
I would love to see you start posting the SFW/BGF fables here. The folks on Bowsite are some of the most informed in the hunting world.
You can whine all you want that the world is picking on SFW/BGF. These guys are intelligent hunters who form their opinions with facts.
Facts are not a currency that SFW/BGF deals with very well. In fact, some would say that if facts were currency, SFW/BGF would be filing bankruptcy.
Maybe you could try to convince the owner of this site, Pat, that BGF was the group that was solely responsible for the USFWS dropping wolves from the Baca management options. Seems like a week ago BGF sent out an email claiming credit for such, same as they tried to claim credit for delisting wolves in MT and ID, when they actually tried to kill that effort.
Pat went through great efforts to inform people on this site of the issue in CO. I suspect he engaged more hunters on the topic than BGF even has on their mailing list. But, Pat is too humble to take credit for the work he did. His humbleness is pretty much the antithesis of how BGF operates.
So, please, let’s hear it. You have posted the drivel on other sites and got your teeth handed to you, so maybe you and your SFW/BGF pals can do a better job over here.
You being a board member of a state SFW chapter gives you little choice but to follow the party line. I understand that. I admire that you are a volunteer for a cause that you think is good. They send you out to defend their honor. You are a good soldier, probably well-intended to the same degree that you are misinformed by your leaders.
All that aside, your efforts toward progress are being weighed down by the fact that the organizations you represent have been caught time and again on the wrong side of issues important to rank and file hunters. That is too bad for you, but does not change the facts of what has transpired, and the fact that people have tired of SFW/BGF operations.
Your comments on another site implied that the North American Model of Wildlife Management is a bad idea. Really, it is in print. I suggest that you should repost that over here, so people can see the positions held by many in the leadership positions of SFW. Rebuking the NA Model would probably not go over too well with the high caliber of minds that post here.
So, I say have at it. I will sit back and watch you get schooled the same way you, and other SFW board/leaders, have been schooled on other websites where you have tried to defend the actions of SFW/BGF. It is the actions of your beloved leaders that bring this heat, not the people who post the facts of those actions.
It is BGF/SFW that continues to plant their shills in western F&G agencies and commissions, asking for political repayment by sending Governor’s tags to SFW for auction. Just as Corey Rossi, the founding member of AK SFW, did when he was director of AK F&G. He sent 4 of the 11 AK Governor's tags to UT for SFW to auction last week.
Rossi was a hand-picked plant by SFW, even though he is now the FORMER Director, after resigning in the face of double digit hunting and outfitting violations. That was SFW and their leadership who did that, not the guys posting the facts.
SFW openly brags of also planting their own operatives in NM & WY. Now they are openly trying to get one of their own planted in the US Senate, via the Montana election this fall. The AK issue with Rossi is not the only place where SFW actions will bring heat.
It was SFW-MT who tried to gut the MT wolf plan at the state level after SFW/BGF lost the MT wolf issue in Congress, a bill which if successful would have stopped our wolf hunt. It was SFW-MT who supported the legislation that would have taken $24 million from MT hunters to pay for requests made by the wool industry.
It was SFW-AZ who tried to grab 350 of AZ premier tags to replicate the UT model. It was SFW-WY that tried to get a preferential pool of non-resident tags for the guides and outfitters.
I could go on and on, but will spare the good folks here the time and space.
All the things that your leaders find as “baggage in the diaper” are things SFW/BGF has done. Feel free to blame the guys who are pointing it out. I doubt people are going to quiet down. If anything, the voices are getting louder. If you have a problem with that, not much I can do to help.
Hunters are smart. All they need are facts and they will make the proper decision. The crowd here is smarter than most in the hunting world, so if you want to have a debate on this forum, many would love to see that happen.
Please, bring your entire SFW/BGF posse and post your “facts.” The doldrums of winter could use some good entertainment and fact vetting.
The Wolf Issue in CO, Baca really was not even off the starting blocks, when lots of people called foul. People like Pat here. It was killed before it was more than a thought. Did BGF assist in this? I am sure there emails did not hurt matters. Did BGF stop it by themselves absolutely not.
As you have seen over and over,(however somehow not believe) each state is its own. No one in UT has any say in anything that we do or try to do in NM. I do the best to represent NM to best I can. I leave UT to UT, AK to AK, WY to WY. You get the picture. So even though some people go down some roads we in NM have no say in what they do in MT,AK,UT, ID and WY. Only thing I can do is represent my fellow members and sportsman here in NM. I do know that Robert got the position for Roberts actions. Not because SFW-UT put him there.
You mention the state governor’s tags; I do know any tag given by UT or NM that 90% of the auction money for the tags goes back to the state for on the ground projects, often those moneys are matched with Sikes money(at least in NM they are). I think that this model is similar across other states as well. There is no refuting this; it is in the regulations of each state. UT was posted, NM regulations are posted. I can post them here as well. State G&F do rely on those funds to do great on the ground projects. I think anyone that has been in the bookcliffs has seen first hand of some of those funds hitting the ground. I also remember that the NM Elk governor’s tag was installed by RMEF, Sheep was FNAWS, deer was MDF. I have not seen anyone attack those organizations for the “tag grab” you so hate.
Now onto the Wolf issue.
“SFW/Big Game Forever repeatedly asked other national organizations to join the wolf delisting effort beginning in early 2010. These groups and many other "experts" repeatedly said it couldn't be done; some even were worried "that we would upset the environmentalists" and that "the wrong party controlled the White House and the Senate." SFW/BGF set about getting support from Congress; in 2010 HR 6028 and S 3919 were introduced to provide for delisting of the gray wolf. Working with Western and Midwestern state organizations, an incredible amount of pressure was brought to bear. Congress responded by making this a hotly debated issue, particularly among western Senators and Congressmen. As a result, wolves were debated on the very last days of Congress in 2010. It appeared that an initial delisting would occur in Congress in 2010, however wolf-delisting negotiations broke down in the final hours of the last two days in which Congress was in session. SFW/BGF built on the 2010 momentum in Congress with HR 509 and S 249 in 2011 once again calling for National Delisting. The bills, co-sponsored by more than 60 Representatives and Senators and representing 32 states, continued to increase the momentum necessary for action on wolf delisting. Wolf Delisting was hitting a high pitch in DC when SFW/BGF convened a meeting in Washington in February 16, 2011, bringing together representatives from a cross-section of wildlife and sportsmen groups, the Farm Bureau, Cattlemen. It appeared that a multi-state deal was very close and efforts were commenced to include Arizona in the deal as well. These efforts were largely halted when Idaho Representative Mike Simpson, amended the first Continuing Resolution Bill to obtain delisting in Idaho and Montana. While portions of Oregon, Washington and a sliver of Utah were included as part of the delisted Distinct Population Segment, the Simpson language amounted to a deal for Idaho and Montana. In particular, the bill required "approved management plans" to manage wolf populations to protect other wildlife which clearly was targeted to just Idaho and Montana. National wildlife organizations endorsed Congressman Simpson's amendment (which later became known as the Simpson/Tester amendment) in addition to S 249 and HR 509. This action immediately switched the focus from national delisting as Congress turned it's attention to the bill which is now included as part of the continuing resolution to fund the government. SFW/BGF worked for the last several weeks to improve upon the two state delisting and was able to provide some safe harbor language for Wyoming due primarily to perceived inequities of reversing a favorable court ruling for Wyoming's plan. No additional improvements were provided. End Result: The Simpson amendment prevailed - not because of the work done by national organizations- rather because of the extensive support for Congressional delisting built over the last year. It is apparent that key Senators in the Democratic majority passed the Simpson/Tester amendment in response to the groundwork that had been laid for national wolf delisting by SFW/BGF. When well known national organizations capitulated to political pressure and supported all options, these members of Congress felt they had sufficient political support from the sportsmen community to pass a watered-down bill. While Congressional intervention to provide for lasting wolf delisting is an important symbolic step in the right direction, it is clear that the bill did not solve the issue for 48 states. We are grateful SFW/BGF was not afraid to take on the fight and build the firestorm to ensure some level of wolf delisting. I am proud to have been a part of their effort and know from where I speak because I was in the belly of the beast as things were unfolding and witnessed this incredible happening."
This is the nuts of what occurred, and yes when the “other orgs” threw out the hard work BFG did, there were some hurt feelings, an email was sent. Then the “other orgs” took that email and turned out a press release. I am sure no one here ever sent an email that was regretted later.
North American Model of Wildlife Management, First there are some organizations that have hid behind this model to stay out of the wolf battle. Once the numbers reached the target breeding pair numbers, the state game management should have been let to manage the population. However, those same orgs stayed out of the battle quoting the North American Model of Wildlife Management and let the environmentalist win battle after battle. Yet the wolf numbers keep increasing until the point we are today. It is a sad state of affairs when the elk herds in ID, MT and WY was decimated to the point we have today. Instead of catching this problem back when, it would have not become an epidemic. So I have no issue with the model, I have an issue with orgs taking the back stage hiding behind this and for not taking a stance long ago.
Anyway, I went to the Utah website and inquired about becoming a member in NM. As expected, Robert Espinoza personally contacted me within hours. I didn't answer, but saved the voicemail. "I'm following up on an inquiry you made on OUR Utah website."...it's always worth a nice chuckle around the campfire.
Last legislative session the UBNM lobbied for SB196 which Robert Espinoza [SFW] and the coalition they belong to was strongly against. The coalition is made up of a wide array of mostly agricultural interests like the cattle growers, wool growers and council of guides and outfitters to name just a few. The legislative session was very divided, and often the exchanges were heated.
As we know, in the end SB196 was passed, but only after some unjust amendments [NR, non-guided cut to 6%]. In any case, after it passed Robert Espinoza and the SFW couldn't begin claiming full credit to NM residents for the positive changes it made for average NM residents. How could he oppose the thing the whole way through and then claim credit when the bill passed?
Let's face it, the NM Council of Guides and Outfitters, the Cattle Growers, the Wool Growers and a handful of other organizations fought this bill hard. While I was on the isle opposite from them, I respect them for being honest and consistent with their position after the bill passed. Robert couldn't jump that isle fast enough...at least regarding the message he conveyed throughout NM. I can only imagine the tone of the conversation he had had with the NR's. LOL....I'll bet he's wearing a NY Giants shirt right now.
Regardless of the issue or an organization's position about the issue, I think having at least a little integrity is important.
I was also in Santa Fe last year and I heard Robert speak totally against the bill to the committee, I about choked with unbelief with the letter he put out after the bill passed.
The "Tag Grab" is what has occurred in NM over the last 18 years in which you and many of your members and supporters have been a part of. The NM-SFW promotes the whoring out of NM Big Game tags to the highest bidders so the more LO/Outfitter tags there are in NM the better it is for the SFW and many of your members. The SFW in no way represents the general NM public or the DIY non-resident for that fact, it is all about the people that can pay the big money. HMMMM just like the U-SFW!!!
Think this will work on Weiers in Arizona to get a phone call returned to complain about HB 2072!? Nothing else has worked. :)
Nice to see you vacated the MM's thread where Fin handed you an epic verbal lashing supported by facts and knowledge. You never answered any of his questions either....just hit the eject button.
Now you jump on Bowsite and start up again. How long before you hit that eject button over here?
Where you headed from here? You're running out of public forums to dump your Kool-Aid.
And yes UT, WY, ID, MT and NM SFW is linked, however Money rasied in NM. stays in NM. Decisions regarding what we do here in NM comes from the state board of NM.
We had a booth in SLC, raised some money there to be brought back here to be used in NM.
As far as ejecting here, very soon. We have many events planned that will take most of my late winter, spring and summer. Then I will be hunting. So job, work, family and volunteering for SFW-NM has be booked and wont have time to come on here to agrue with people that has no intentions of doing anything but post inaccurate drival to mouth against a orginization that has accomplished what we have in this great state.
Want details on what we are doing. There is a web site for that.
jimmyt's Link
There is a post on the big game forum indicating how much SFW raised and how much it spent to improve the situation of wildlife.
Does your website have that info for NM? If not, can you post it somewhere?
NM, being a state board member, I have seen the books. I can tell you that no one in SFW-NM has every received any compensation. Every dime we have received has either gone to hosts our events, or wildlife projects and all projects are in the state of NM. Yes I know there will be skeptics, however want to see, then join, become involved, then ask. It will be presented to you.
Utah Expo tags are not "auction" tags.
I really would like to know.
What numbers?
NM's would be glad to show you, as stated, join, get involved and they are readily available.
As with many orgs out there, I want to know how many open the books to Joe Smo on the internet because they ask?
I am not a member of UT and as stated, money and actions of each state is keeped within each state.
As far as SFW-NM, we do everything that we can to promote outdoors in NM, kids are important, and the Four Corners chapter was proud to arrange, both financially and volunteers to provide a buffalo hunt to a young man that was severely burned. After many surgeries and rehab he had a successful hunt, a couple of our key volunteers made this happen. Right around Christmas the good Lord lead him to be by his side. He will never be forgotten.
Everyone in the Four Corners area knew Bobby and he was a inspiration to many. R.I.P. Bobby.
Our mission statement is "Sportsmen for Fish & Wildlife New Mexico (SFWNM) is a non-profit wildlife conservation organization of sportsmen members who are interested in preserving and increasing healthy populations of wildlife throughout New Mexico."
UT Expo tags, If you want to know the facts I would go research them myself. If I was to post something here it would just be called BS. I would not take for a fact all the gossip on these forums, look to the UT state regulations for the facts.
There is only one national issue, and that is the wolf issue. I have never ever seen any flip flop on that.
It is funny because besides you guys(internet forum guys), everyone that I know that are sportsman in NM, support the SFW-NM. I think mainly because people that have been around me, know me for who I am and trust me, they know where my passion and heart lives. I have ran the FCBA for several years, we have increased attendance, increased target quality and this year Fred Eichler will be at our banquet. As with the SFW Four Corners, bigger each and every year.
Yes LO tags are something that comes up here. Not out in everyday conservations.
Yet I know several guys that enjoy the LO tags year after year, and oh by the way either free or at a minimal fee. I am not one of them, but I respect them for that.
We as a group think that to increase opportunity, we must try to increase the size of the herd. I am no biologist but a fawn survival rate of less than 40% is too low. I also think a calf survival rate of less than 40% is too low. Currently we are less than 30% on both? WTH is wrong?
Instead of fighting amongst LO, OilField, Ranchers, Wool Growers, Trappers, etc. Lets find the solution to the real problem? Everyone on those groups would gladly participate in a good solution.
I also think that beside all the bickering between ourselfs as sportsman, there is a larger enemy out there. The Anti group is looming. There will be a day that if we dont unite we will loose all that we hold dear.
For all we will be holding a large 3D shoot in Aztec on May 19th & 20th, details I will post here ASAP.
FCBA will hold its normal spring fling (family-fun evert)
SFW will in con-juction will host a competetion shoot.
I will also post a challenge to all bowsite members. Personally if anyone on here, Will PM me with name, and town name. If you win the competetion round I will personally offer an added $300 "bonus". So come up set around campfire, meet myself, and have a great 3-D Shoot. Only disclaimer is that you must not be from the four corners region. And must PM me before end of March.
oh really! either you are being dishonest or you don't know many people outside your circle or you just simply don't acknowledge anyones existence that disagrees with what the SFW stands for and from what i have seen on the other thread you simply ignore the facts and choose to see the truth/facts as "drivel". i've talked to many that are not just "internet forum guys" as you put it and genuinely are worried about what the SFW is doing and how it is affecting the future of hunting in the west. because they are educating themselves.
Dusty, you don't like to be thrown under the bus but that is exactly what you did to the majority of NM hunters.
I don't know how, but I'm sure going to try to find a way to make that shoot. Sitting around a campfire with you would be an experience I don't want to miss. I'm not from the four corners region, I'll be releasing the string with my fingers and I'll be releasing the message of NM Bowhunters from my heart!
