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Messages posted to thread:
BIG BEAR 13-Oct-12
Waterlooboy 13-Oct-12
gator2 13-Oct-12
gator2 13-Oct-12
keith 14-Oct-12
BIG BEAR 15-Oct-12
gator2 15-Oct-12
Lon Hale 15-Oct-12
Michigan Hunter 16-Oct-12
keith 16-Oct-12
Lew 17-Oct-12
DB Dalton 17-Oct-12
hammer 17-Oct-12
hammer 17-Oct-12
BIG BEAR 17-Oct-12
DB Dalton 17-Oct-12
Anony Mouse 17-Oct-12
Lew 18-Oct-12
K Cummings 18-Oct-12
BIG BEAR 18-Oct-12
Lew 18-Oct-12
hammer 20-Oct-12
BIG BEAR 20-Oct-12
Waterlooboy 20-Oct-12
BIG BEAR 20-Oct-12
keith 22-Oct-12
DB Dalton 22-Oct-12
hammer 23-Oct-12
DB Dalton 23-Oct-12
hammer 23-Oct-12
hammer 23-Oct-12
DB Dalton 23-Oct-12
hammer 23-Oct-12
BIG BEAR 23-Oct-12
DB Dalton 23-Oct-12
BIG BEAR 23-Oct-12
hammer 23-Oct-12
BIG BEAR 24-Oct-12
BIG BEAR 24-Oct-12
hammer 24-Oct-12
DB Dalton 24-Oct-12
BIG BEAR 24-Oct-12
hammer 24-Oct-12
BIG BEAR 24-Oct-12
Lew 29-Oct-12
DB Dalton 29-Oct-12
keith 29-Oct-12
Lew 29-Oct-12
DB Dalton 29-Oct-12
keith 29-Oct-12
JustinTBow8 29-Oct-12
Waterlooboy 29-Oct-12
BIG BEAR 30-Oct-12
Waterlooboy 30-Oct-12
BIG BEAR 30-Oct-12
DB Dalton 30-Oct-12
BIG BEAR 30-Oct-12
BIG BEAR 30-Oct-12
DB Dalton 30-Oct-12
BIG BEAR 30-Oct-12
BIG BEAR 30-Oct-12
DB Dalton 30-Oct-12
Waterlooboy 30-Oct-12
BIG BEAR 30-Oct-12
BIG BEAR 30-Oct-12
Lew 01-Nov-12
keith 01-Nov-12
DB Dalton 01-Nov-12
BIG BEAR 01-Nov-12
hammer 02-Nov-12
DB Dalton 02-Nov-12
keith 02-Nov-12
DB Dalton 02-Nov-12
Lew 02-Nov-12
DB Dalton 02-Nov-12
Waterlooboy 02-Nov-12
keith 02-Nov-12
Lew 02-Nov-12
keith 02-Nov-12
DB Dalton 02-Nov-12
Lew 03-Nov-12
hammer 03-Nov-12
hammer 04-Nov-12










From: BIG BEAR ........ No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual ....... Date: 13-Oct-12


From: Waterlooboy ........ No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual ....... Date: 13-Oct-12


If your advocating a boycott of the combo tag I'm all in :)

As for whether or not there are more big bucks in the UP? If that were true there would be a lot more entries in CBM coming from the yoop. And I don't see that happening. However I do believe the chances of seeing an adult buck in the UP are better than your chances of seeing an adult buck in the SLP.

From: gator2 ........ No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual ....... Date: 13-Oct-12


Big Bear

So what's the point in mandating APR"s on the combo tag?

One thing it saves alot of bucks in early season and that will help get the breeding done.

From: gator2 ........ No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual ....... Date: 13-Oct-12


We have owned a place on Drummond Island the last 21 years.Drummond had APR before the rest of the up.Locals had a hard time understanding it at first and now i have not talked to one local that does not like the APR. And Drummond is 2/3 state land.

From: keith ........ No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual ....... Date: 14-Oct-12


There will be a lot of bigger bucks killed in the UP this year. However, not because of APR's. It's because of 3 mild winters in a row. Winter weather is the determining factor to determine if deer live or die, at least in the Lake Superior snow belt.

Since the inception of the UP APR's, there have been a lot more hunters buying the single tags. Coincidentally, there seems to be more spouses that haven't hunted before also buying single tags, hmmmm.

From: BIG BEAR ........ No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual ....... Date: 15-Oct-12


From: gator2 ........ No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual ....... Date: 15-Oct-12


Keith

If you think about it,it would be hard for someone to drive all the way to the UP and fill there wife's tag on state land.And make it back with out getting caught.Why would they even tag it.

Hope you have good luck Big Bear.

You realy are a Bear. LOL

From: Lon Hale ........ No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual ....... Date: 15-Oct-12


I didn't fall for the combo tag this Fall as well, passed up five bucks opening morning last year. Couldn't put enough points on a side with low light. I truly believe culling the little bucks allows the big boys a better chance of passing on their genes.

From: Michigan Hunter ........ No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual ....... Date: 16-Oct-12


I kinda think it's a good idea. I buy a combo tag every year and it forces me to be a little more patient. I've passed up 3 nice 6 pointers so far and God blessed me with a nice 8 point a few days ago. The buck to doe ratio, atleast in the southern U.P., is completely off. So, I don't mind passing up the smaller bucks. I spend quite a bit of time in the woods and will harvest a mature doe before a smaller buck. I usaully wait for that large baron doe too. To each their own I guess. Hunting is a personal thing but I try to do my best to let the smaller ones go for breeding stock or for the youngsters. Good luck this fall everyone.

From: keith ........ No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual ....... Date: 16-Oct-12


Gator,

Not all hunters that hunt in the UP come from the LP. There are a good number of us Yoopers that don't have to drive long distances to hunt God's country.

From: Lew ........ No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual ....... Date: 17-Oct-12


Kieth, You are kind of rough on your fellow UPers. Saying that many are buying illegal tags to harvest more then their allowed 1 or 2 bucks per year. I hope that is not generally true. In defense of the hunters I know, I have not heard of anyone buying a tag for a nonhunter and using to to tag a deer. That doesn't mean it doesn't happen, but I hope it is very rare. I also hope, IF, you do know of a specific case where this is happening, that you report it to law enforcement.

I am heading out this weekend targeting a doe and a mature buck, which ever shows up first. With APR or without, with QDM or without, I choose to not shoot any buck less then 3.5 yrs. I have high expectations but hunting is hunting. I hope you have a great season. Lew

From: DB Dalton ........ One Violation Reported on this individual One Violation Reported on this individual ....... Date: 17-Oct-12
THIS VISITOR IS CURRENTLY UNDER WATCH FOR DISRESPECTFUL BEHAVIOR


The Combo tag was developed specifically to address the "Aunt Mary's got her own tag that I can use" syndrome.

Based on first hand conversations with DNR social biologists and big game experts, the combo tag was designed in such a way as to allow a deer hunter to take a deer on his first license, but then set the bar for taking a second deer high enough that it only was filled a small percentage of the time (5%).

At the same time, the DNR eliminated the "deer for camp" rule.

As a result: Hunters bought their "own" second license instead of Aunt Mary buying one for him, and could stay in the woods legally for pretty much the rest of the season after taking their first buck.

The Aunt Mary license was not a small issue. It happened a lot, and that is why the DNR found a solution that solved the problem with as little impact to the deer population as possible, creating hundreds of thousands of extra hours of LEGAL Days Afield for a couple hundred thousand hunters.

The Combo tags works.

From: hammer ........ One Violation Reported on this individual One Violation Reported on this individual ....... Date: 17-Oct-12
THIS VISITOR IS CURRENTLY UNDER WATCH FOR DISRESPECTFUL BEHAVIOR


From: hammer ........ One Violation Reported on this individual One Violation Reported on this individual ....... Date: 17-Oct-12
THIS VISITOR IS CURRENTLY UNDER WATCH FOR DISRESPECTFUL BEHAVIOR


From: BIG BEAR ........ No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual ....... Date: 17-Oct-12


From: DB Dalton ........ One Violation Reported on this individual One Violation Reported on this individual ....... Date: 17-Oct-12
THIS VISITOR IS CURRENTLY UNDER WATCH FOR DISRESPECTFUL BEHAVIOR


Big Bear...you are not alone.... Michigan hunters want to hunt deer, not QDM manipulated herds...

From: Anony Mouse ........ No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual ....... Date: 17-Oct-12


Big Bear, DB...me too!

I prefer to eat meat than make soup out of horns.

A. Mouse

From: Lew ........ No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual ....... Date: 18-Oct-12


A couple of points. !. In the UP the combo tag allows you to take TWO restricted bucks. IF you decide to buy a separate archery and rifle tag you can only take ONE legal buck for all seasons. 2. According to the 2012 Hunting Digest the combo tag is good for two bucks or two does during the archery season. I have suggested several times that for those hunter that don't care about antlers and just want to put meat in the freezer get a doe permit and have fun. The instant reply is, "We don't have doe permit available in my area." Well the solution is to get a combo tag shoot, does and everyone is happy. Well, that may be a stretch.

From: K Cummings ........ No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual ....... Date: 18-Oct-12


"IF you decide to buy a separate archery and rifle tag you can only take ONE legal buck for all seasons."

The problem with that Lew is that this is absolutely unenforceable. Compliance is completely on the honor system. There is no way of knowing whether or not one tag, both tags, or neither tag has been filled unless the hunter checks the deer in.

Unfortunately, for all intents and purposes, if you buy individual tags, you can fill them both, with any antlered buck you choose, with no consequences.

KPC

From: BIG BEAR ........ No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual ....... Date: 18-Oct-12


From: Lew ........ No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual ....... Date: 18-Oct-12


Kevin, I agree there are violators out there that don't respect the law. Personally I would support that the only buck tag available for be UP be the combo tag. However, there are those that do not agree and we all have to compromise. So I buy the combo tag and hunt for does and mature bucks only. I put meat in the freezer and have a great time hunting. So I guess I can't complain much. Take Care. Lew

From: hammer ........ No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual ....... Date: 20-Oct-12


From: BIG BEAR ........ No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual ....... Date: 20-Oct-12


From: Waterlooboy ........ No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual ....... Date: 20-Oct-12


I'm pretty sure hunters will always be able to harvest the first "legal" deer they see BB.

From: BIG BEAR ........ No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual ....... Date: 20-Oct-12


From: keith ........ No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual ....... Date: 22-Oct-12


The trouble with that is, you shoot a deer with a bow, you're done bow hunting. You shoot a deer with a gun, you're done gun hunting. And, if you shoot a buck with a bow, you can't hunt with a gun (unless you have antlerless tags). Hunter's choice = choose your restriction.

From: DB Dalton ........ One Violation Reported on this individual One Violation Reported on this individual ....... Date: 22-Oct-12
THIS VISITOR IS CURRENTLY UNDER WATCH FOR DISRESPECTFUL BEHAVIOR


Michigan should change the name of the Combo Tag to "Maximum Day's Afield Value Tag"

From: hammer ........ No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual ....... Date: 23-Oct-12


From: DB Dalton ........ One Violation Reported on this individual One Violation Reported on this individual ....... Date: 23-Oct-12
THIS VISITOR IS CURRENTLY UNDER WATCH FOR DISRESPECTFUL BEHAVIOR


No Hammer...once again you are wrong. You make assumptions based on your own view of the world. You complain about people challenging your logic capabilities and then jump right back in with a post like the one above.

Why do you say that does are easy to shoot? Deer are deer, and adult does are extremely wary animals.

How do you know that combo tag hunters don't already take the first legal deer that comes along in bow season? Oh, that's right, you don't know. You assumed it.

Why all the fuss? The fuss is about someone like you, trying to convince other people to buy into your big deer growth philosophy. We don't.

The reason you bring this up is to continue the discussion that you claim you wanted no more part of.

Strange way to back out, dontcha think?

This is the only thing you said that made sense.

" I just do not know what the reason is."

You should have started there and thought to yourself.... 'ya know, I just don't know why so I'm just not going to kick the hornets nest.

From: hammer ........ No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual ....... Date: 23-Oct-12


From: hammer ........ No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual ....... Date: 23-Oct-12


From: DB Dalton ........ One Violation Reported on this individual One Violation Reported on this individual ....... Date: 23-Oct-12
THIS VISITOR IS CURRENTLY UNDER WATCH FOR DISRESPECTFUL BEHAVIOR


Hammer says: Ok DB I did not say Does are easy to shoot.

I say... Yes you did. I read it. It is right here,

"The reason I bring this up in this way is to show that with a little effort guys who say they could really care less about horn soup can easily get a doe!! Very easily as well. "

You didn't say they could "easily" get a license or permission to hunt doe infested private property...you said they could "easily" get a doe. You can't "get" a doe unless you shoot one. It pretty much is "implied". SO, yes, you did say it. BTW...getting a doe tag (antlerless tag) is not a guarantee that you will shoot one.

I recognize from your last post, that you now attempt to say what you really meant, but from your prior post, it reads pretty clearly. If you object to people taking you verbatim, you should proof read before you hit send. Why waste time trying to explain what you "really" mean in the subsequent posts. Explain it the first time so there is no misunderstanding. It works better that way.

Hammer says: "If I had unlimited doe permits I could have harvest 20 does already this year and only 3 bucks during the limited time I have hunted thus far this season. "

I say: whoo hoo... how fortunate for you. Good thing you don't have unlimited doe permits, huh?

Hammer says: "I never said any hunter does not take the 1st legal deer they see as you suggested I did. I was simple and precise in my questions. I did not lay out a bunch of statements in my previous post but instead made it a point to lay out questions. You will notice they are questions by the question marks that followed each question. It looks like this??? That means I am asking a question not asking you to attack what I said. Attack the questions if you want but you again put words in my mouth "

I say: You laid out leading questions with a presumed answer, but then you followed with the challenge question at the end "RIGHT???" What you did was not simple, it was rhetorical. It means you were making a statement in the form of a question and then expecting agreement or a challenge (well, you don't like challenges, so I guess it was just expecting agreement). Live with your words, Hammer, you write them, not me.

Hammer says: "As for people challenging my logic. I take no issue in the other forum of people doing so. What I take issue with is rude behavior and refusing to back up there replies to me when challenging my verifiable logic. Guys like you said my logic was flawed and gave opinion on individual issues. You said I was incorrect but you refused to provide any verifiable data or research to show I was wrong on any issue and that you were supposedly correct. "

I say: You make statements like "one and one is two" and then you base an entire illogical opinion on it. I gave you some research data on one of your "points" and you dismissed the source, the content, and even the way the science was delivered. I know your kind.... you could put solid research in front of you and if you didn't agree with the content, you summarily dismiss it. It doesn't pay to provide you with research, so I don't. Do you wanna go back and talk about why late dropping fawns really occur again? We could do that. Do you wanna discuss early dropping fawns too?

Hammer says: "I asked questions and asked several of them because I want to know the thoughts of hunters who do not like APR'S and what they feel toward the specific questions I laid out about harvesting does. You then pipe in with garbage about me assuming and blah blah blah and then telling me how I should have wrote something. Just don't answer my questions if you don't like the questions. "

I say: Lol... you asked leading questions to support a gotcha theory you cooked up. Your idea was that those poor dumb combo tag hunters complain about APR inflation from smart guys like Hammer, if only they would learn to pass on the bucks things would be better for all, but NOOOO, they are hypocrites and really only want to shoot bucks, they would never THINK of shooting does to fill their combo tags.

Do you really think that we pass on does if we have a legal tag to stick on em? Have you not read one thing we have written here in the past two weeks? First legal deer means FIRST legal deer.

I have an idea...if you don't want people challenging the garbage (you used the word, so I figure you won't mind if I return it) you write, then don't write it. Once you post it, its open for discussion. There are no side rules about what you think is rude and no side rules on what I think is just plain misuse of anecdotal information.

Go back and read your questions again and then come and attempt to tell us they weren't written with an agenda in mind. Right?? ?? ??

From: hammer ........ No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual ....... Date: 23-Oct-12


From: BIG BEAR ........ No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual ....... Date: 23-Oct-12


From: DB Dalton ........ One Violation Reported on this individual One Violation Reported on this individual ....... Date: 23-Oct-12
THIS VISITOR IS CURRENTLY UNDER WATCH FOR DISRESPECTFUL BEHAVIOR


What is your point?

I can play that "I saw this" game too..

Last year a doe was in front of me for an hour and a half... would not come out of the tag alders, very wary... as I watched her, I sensed almost imperceptible footfalls in the wet leaves directly behind me. I could not look, so I waited... I could almost hear breathing behind me and didn't want a hoof to the head, or a bear claw to the neck, so I had to peek. Luckily it was just a huge buck which spun around and ran directly away from me into the swamp.

So..based on my anecdotal information, does are more wary that huge bucks.

From: BIG BEAR ........ No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual ....... Date: 23-Oct-12


From: hammer ........ No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual ....... Date: 23-Oct-12


From: BIG BEAR ........ No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual ....... Date: 24-Oct-12


From: BIG BEAR ........ No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual ....... Date: 24-Oct-12


From: hammer ........ No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual ....... Date: 24-Oct-12


From: DB Dalton ........ One Violation Reported on this individual One Violation Reported on this individual ....... Date: 24-Oct-12
THIS VISITOR IS CURRENTLY UNDER WATCH FOR DISRESPECTFUL BEHAVIOR


Hammer...NO deal. If you post on a public forum, you are going to get public participation. What you consider rude is an opinion of your own making. Learn to deal with people who disagree with you. Its not our job to sugar coat our objections to the opinions you attempt to pass off as facts.

From: BIG BEAR ........ No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual ....... Date: 24-Oct-12


From: hammer ........ No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual ....... Date: 24-Oct-12


From: BIG BEAR ........ No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual ....... Date: 24-Oct-12


From: Lew ........ No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual ....... Date: 29-Oct-12


I have been hunting the UP since 1969 through times of mild winter and severe winters. We just got back from a week of bow hunting and for us it was the best year ever for seeing quality bucks directly or on trail cameras. If there was a vote today for appling APR for all bucks in the UP, I would vote for it in a heast beat. For me it is all positive and no negative. Keep the fun in hunting, to quote a friend.

From: DB Dalton ........ One Violation Reported on this individual One Violation Reported on this individual ....... Date: 29-Oct-12
THIS VISITOR IS CURRENTLY UNDER WATCH FOR DISRESPECTFUL BEHAVIOR


Lew... Im glad you saw more quality bucks. That seems to be what makes you happy. Individual anecdotes and experiences is fine for your own memory wall, but it is not what public policy should be based upon.

Many hunters would be happy to see more quality deer, but if they only saw small bucks that were not legal, based on increased APR's, and they were not allowed to harvest them, their experience is going to be negative, especially public land hunters.

Private land owners ALWAYS have a choice. This choice should be extended to Public land hunters as well.

From: keith ........ No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual ....... Date: 29-Oct-12


Lew:

Where do you hunt? You don't need to be specific.

Keith

From: Lew ........ No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual ....... Date: 29-Oct-12


DB, I just gave my opinion on what I would perfer. However, another opinion is that APR's are for the benefit of public land hunting. As you say, the private land hunters have the option of APR, public land hunters do not. At least not without the APR rules. Like Hammer says, if you don't care about horns etc. get a combo tag and shoot the more plentiful does and fill the freezer. I think IF they inacted APR state wide, even you would have more fun hunting public land. I know you can go into a long monologue on why not, but no need, I have read it all for months, years etc. I'm sure nothing could be said on here that will change your mind. Either way, have a great season and have fun.

From: DB Dalton ........ One Violation Reported on this individual One Violation Reported on this individual ....... Date: 29-Oct-12
THIS VISITOR IS CURRENTLY UNDER WATCH FOR DISRESPECTFUL BEHAVIOR


Lew... it comes down to a choice between traditional hunting for legal animals using a management style that still provides for maximum sustained yield and a relatively new type of hunting that uses alternative management practices to provide a more specialized harvest of select deer to create a higher average number of points on the deer harvested.

Traditional management requires restrictions on the number of antlerless deer taken from the pre hunt population, enough to keep the population in harmony with the habitat carrying capacity, but not so many as to reduce the overall population for next year's hunt.

APR, QDM, etc management takes into consideration the traditional harvest of a certain amount of antlerless deer AND then adds in the protection of young bucks in order to create "more" big bucks. In order to balance this additional male population to the habitat carrying capacity, it is necessary to further restrict the number of antlerless permits issued, in order to maintain equilibrium. This means fewer does in the herd, fewer fawns spawned and recruited. In addition, QDM (in its original form) advocates that the population of total animals be kept significantly "below" the habitat carrying capacity in order to assure that bucks have as much nutrition as possible, providing for quicker body growth, which allows more energy to be siphoned off for antler growth.

If you want to see more deer overall, Traditional management provides that. If you want to see more big bucks, but less deer overall, QDM provides that.

Its a management choice to arrive at what is more important, seeing a maximum amount of deer with a sustainable harvest , or seeing more big bucks.

From: keith ........ No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual ....... Date: 29-Oct-12


"get a combo tag and shoot the more plentiful does and fill the freezer."

This is an option for the archery hunter; not for the everyday, 3 day a year, public land, firearms deer hunter.

From: JustinTBow8 ........ No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual ....... Date: 29-Oct-12


Did anybody watch Michigan Out of Doors last week? I thought it was interesting what Russ Mason had to say about what he loved and hated about being a Michigan DNR Wildlife Chief. The part of his interview I am referring to is his mentioning of the fact that Michigan hunters for the most part highly oppose new ideas that may be outside the box. I just thought it was interesting that the DNR may want to make changes to the michigan deer hunting rules and regulations but can't because of the large out cry to new ideas.

This may not be what Russ was referring to but it seems highly feasible that the ideas outside the box he is talking about are deer hunting regulation related.

From: Waterlooboy ........ No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual ....... Date: 29-Oct-12


I like the system thats in place in the UP. I hate what deer season has become down state. Especially public land.

From: BIG BEAR ........ No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual ....... Date: 30-Oct-12


What exactly does the system that's in place accomplish Waterlooboy ???

I bought the bow tag and a gun tag. I can legally shoot a spike.

If a guy wants to vountarily pass up that spike,,, he's welcome to do that...... But he dosen't have to......

But now I'm restricted to killing only one deer during bow season. The DNR is forcing me to choose what type of restriction I want imposed on me. I choose to shoot a spike if I see one. Now I can't kill 2 does during bow season if I get a chance.

In the end,, they are resticting me on does.

From: Waterlooboy ........ No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual ....... Date: 30-Oct-12


If your hunting an area with few deer then perhaps restrictions are needed on killing does. Dont you think? As for the rest of your question you answered it in your post.

From: BIG BEAR ........ No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual ....... Date: 30-Oct-12


So,, What you are telling me is that the APR's that are in place do nothing to restrict the harvest of bucks,,,, Right ??

If a guy wants to kill a spike,,, He can still do so legally,, Right ??

So any APR's in the U.P. are in fact VOLUNTARY. Hence the guys that voluntarily restrict themselves to shooting a buck with 4 points or more on one side..... would do so without the APR's even being in place..... So what's the sense of the APR's that are in place ?

What has restricting the harvest of does got to do with antler point restrictions ?

From: DB Dalton ........ One Violation Reported on this individual One Violation Reported on this individual ....... Date: 30-Oct-12
THIS VISITOR IS CURRENTLY UNDER WATCH FOR DISRESPECTFUL BEHAVIOR


Here's an out of the box idea. Change opening day of firearm deer season to the Saturday before Thanksgiving, every year. Then keep the season open for three full weekends.

People who have lost their long time jobs and have little vacation time left can take 3 vacation days, (MTW of the first week, marry that up with Thanksgiving and Friday after days off, and have 9 full days of deer hunting up north with only 3 days of vacation burned.

Think of the boon to little northern towns who depend on hunter dollars to survive the winter.

Think of the Hunter Days Afield recreation opportunity.

What is so sacred about Nov 15th? Its just a day. And when it comes in the middle of the week, its pretty quiet in the woods.

From: BIG BEAR ........ No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual ....... Date: 30-Oct-12


Not only are the APR's that are in place in the U.P. voluntary,,,,, They are on the honor system,, as has been pointed out.

Once a guy tags a spike with a bow.... What is to stop him from doing the same during gun season ???

Horrible system.....

From: BIG BEAR ........ No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual ....... Date: 30-Oct-12


Surfing through Antler point restrictions for other states...... I see there is as much debate in Pennsylvania and other states as there is in Michigan regarding the issue....

-The New York State DEC deer biologist states there is no biological reason for statewide AR's in New York. The DEC does not consider there to be a compelling biological or management need for mandatory antler restrictions, and evidence from the pilot antler restriction program suggests no changes in participation that would provide economic benefit for communities in an area with mandatory antler restrictions.

-New Hampshire tried antler point restrictions and dropped it.

-Antler point restrictions were tried on mule deer in Colorado for a few years,,, and dropped.

From: DB Dalton ........ One Violation Reported on this individual One Violation Reported on this individual ....... Date: 30-Oct-12
THIS VISITOR IS CURRENTLY UNDER WATCH FOR DISRESPECTFUL BEHAVIOR


Chris...its a religion, a fad... its not needed and only serves to divide hunters.

From: BIG BEAR ........ No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual ....... Date: 30-Oct-12


Antler point restrictions were dropped in 6 counties in Missouri where CWD was found.....

Missouri state deer biologist Jason Sumners; "APR's protect yearling males and promote older bucks; Both yearling and adult bucks exhibit CWD at much higher rates than yearling and adult females. So reducing the number of male deer can at least help limit the spread of CWD"........

From: BIG BEAR ........ No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual ....... Date: 30-Oct-12


Minnesota Assemblyman Steve Drazowski opposes antler point restrictions; and has introduced a measure to eliminate them from season parameters.

After APR's were introduced in Minnesota, the antlered buck harvest predictably dropped. But the doe harvest statistics were surprising. The antlerless harvest was down 20%.

According to deer ecologist Merrett Gund...."If the intent of the regulations was to decrease the population of the deer herd in those areas, It sure seems that according to the numbers it failed".

Those expanded regulations and frustration among many deer hunters led to another problem; A SHARP DECLINE IN HUNTER PARTICIPATION. More than 6% fewer hunters participated in the Zone 3 deer hunt (Where APR's were implemented); While hunter participation in the rest of the state increased.

From: DB Dalton ........ One Violation Reported on this individual One Violation Reported on this individual ....... Date: 30-Oct-12
THIS VISITOR IS CURRENTLY UNDER WATCH FOR DISRESPECTFUL BEHAVIOR


I guess hunters in Mn left the APR areas and went somewhere else. I'll bet the big boy buck on the wall folks were happy about that.

From: Waterlooboy ........ No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual ....... Date: 30-Oct-12


Whats in place in the UP is the hunters choice system. Its not APRs although your going to call it that because thats what you've set your mind to. Fine and well. There are no different rules in place as they pertain to APRs than there were before the hunters choice system was implemeted. None!

Is it perfect? Probably not. But I happen to think folks that brake the laws are going to brake the laws no matter what rules are in place. Most probably dont even buy a license to begin with.

Does it go far enough to actually make a big difference? Definitely not. But keep in mind it was set up to appease MANY different interests. Not just yours and not just mine, but yours, mine, the DNRs, congress, the farm bureaus, and lord knows who else.

In the end whether you understand it, support it, or hate it, it will have an effect. In fact I believe it is having an effect. Its just that you have chosen to ignore them and/or dismiss them. I am quite certain if anything negative had happened over the last few years you would have been just as quick to blame it on the hunters choice system.

From: BIG BEAR ........ No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual ....... Date: 30-Oct-12


What effect is it having ?? One guy has come on here and said he's seeing more bucks in the U.P.

Another guy who lives in the U.P. says there's more bucks in the U.P. because of 3 mild winters in a row....

I don't live in the U.P.,,,,, But I can tell you I shoveled my driveway a total of one time last winter..... A mild winter for sure in Michigan.

As far as the tags being on the "Honor System"...... After 19 years of law enforcement..... I'd say (Just my opinion),,,, That it's a huge mistake to enact laws that leave it up to people to be on the honor system...... That's just human nature.

I'd rather see tags that are issued specifically for bucks,,, and tags that are specifically for antlerless deer.

From: BIG BEAR ........ No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual ....... Date: 30-Oct-12


I can also say I watched the snowmobile trail condition reports on line in Newberry last winter,,, and rarely saw the trails reported higher than poor. The report always seemed to say they needed more snow. Not scientific evidence for sure... But I think that there was a lot less snow than normal last winter.

What's in place in the U.P. is the hunter's choice of restrictions. Buy the combo tag; Have antler restrictions imposed. Buy a bow tag and a gun tag; and restrict the number of does you can kill.

Is it perfect ? No. Is it going to have an effect ?? I don't think so. Anyone passing up spikes or forks under this system would do so without this system in place.

From: Lew ........ No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual ....... Date: 01-Nov-12


Whether APR in the UP is working or not working is obviously debatable. However, the one aspect that may be having a positive effect is, IF you choose to buy a regular buck tag, you can only take one legal buck per season. I know we have violators, but we had violator long before the combo tag. It looks like the DNR has hit a balance point where most hunter are satisfied with the way things are. Go hunting, be safe, be legal and have fun, life is short.

From: keith ........ No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual ....... Date: 01-Nov-12


"It looks like the DNR has hit a balance point where most hunter are satisfied with the way things are."

How do we know most hunters are satisfied? There has never been a survey on this issue.

From: DB Dalton ........ One Violation Reported on this individual One Violation Reported on this individual ....... Date: 01-Nov-12
THIS VISITOR IS CURRENTLY UNDER WATCH FOR DISRESPECTFUL BEHAVIOR


Keith: For many, anecdotes are the same as a study. Talk to enough people and you can convince yourself that Harris should take lessons from you.

From: BIG BEAR ........ No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual ....... Date: 01-Nov-12


Debate ?? You are basing your debate on you (One hunter),,,, seeing more bucks this year in your small area of the U.P.,,,,,,, ?? Really ??

Do you have anything more to offer ??

So if I buy a bow tag and a gun tag,, I can only take one buck...... So what ?? The percentage of Michigan hunters that tag 2 bucks is about 5%......

That's a non issue.

Satisfied ?? I have a choice of restrictions. Buy a combo tag. Have antler point restrictions imposed on me.

Buy a bow tag and a gun tag. Now I can harvest any buck....... But I'm limited to one doe during bow season.........

Satisfied..... ?? Somewhat less than satisfied for me.

From: hammer ........ No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual ....... Date: 02-Nov-12


From: DB Dalton ........ One Violation Reported on this individual One Violation Reported on this individual ....... Date: 02-Nov-12
THIS VISITOR IS CURRENTLY UNDER WATCH FOR DISRESPECTFUL BEHAVIOR


No... the rules in the UP were made outside of the rules for the LP. It was a special interest "sportsmens" group that pushed it through via a supportive NRC member.

You should have known that.

From: keith ........ No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual ....... Date: 02-Nov-12


Hammer,

Here's how it went down (condensed version):

1: NRC had a moratorium on QDM/APR proposals.

2: A certain "sportsmans" group approached the NRC with the proposal.

3: The group LIED to the NRC about the amount of support from UP hunters. I have first hand knowledge of this and let the NRC know about it.

4: No survey was done at this time. (A survey was done prior to the moratorium for the purpose of going to QDM UP wide. The survey came back with not enough support).

5: The head of the group attended the NRC meeting the month prior to the vote on the proposal. He was interviewed on local TV. He was visibly angry because it was obvious, at that time, the NRC was not going to be in favor.

6: The next month, the NRC voted in favor of the proposal. The vote was 7-0. What the HELL!

From: DB Dalton ........ One Violation Reported on this individual One Violation Reported on this individual ....... Date: 02-Nov-12
THIS VISITOR IS CURRENTLY UNDER WATCH FOR DISRESPECTFUL BEHAVIOR


Reminds me of when there was a truck load bait ban in the NE Lower Peninsula, yet the Club Country sportsmen's clubs continued with the beet pile mountains and enforcement was curtailed; and then tracing back some good ol boy connections to some NRC directorships.

Interesting how politics works...huh?

From: Lew ........ No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual ....... Date: 02-Nov-12


Keith, DB, Big Bear, You guys are a hoot! You blast others for using personal observations for their opinions and not scientific studies. Then do an about face and do the same thing. Claiming all this inside information and personal knowledge of motivations etc. You carry it so far to imply you know what the other 100,000 UP deer hunters think. You are presenting opinions just like I am. Until proven wrong, my OPINIONS are just as valid as yours. REALLY!

From: DB Dalton ........ One Violation Reported on this individual One Violation Reported on this individual ....... Date: 02-Nov-12
THIS VISITOR IS CURRENTLY UNDER WATCH FOR DISRESPECTFUL BEHAVIOR


Lew... you may want to reserve your judgement for a moment there. Keith was a first hand observer to the about face committed by the UP NRC decision. The bait pile Club Country issues were well documented at the time.

Its not an "opinion" that the UP Sportsmen convinced the NRC to ignore their own APR plan for Michigan. Its history.

Its not an opinion that NRC Directors hunted in Club Country ranches with large bait piles, its history.

Your opinion that most UP deer hunters have reached a balance point is pretty subjective, and implies that you took a valid statistical survey of enough hunters to arrive at your conclusion. Did you do that? The onus of proof is one the one making the statement, not on the reader.

From: Waterlooboy ........ No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual ....... Date: 02-Nov-12


"Lew or Waterloo boy, are the rules for making a restriction change in the UP the same as they are in the state as a whole? What I mean is did 66% of the hunters in the UP need to agree to the restriction changes that were recently made?"

The rules are the same statewide. It bares mentioning that the "hunters choice initiative" is not an AP restriction. This is why it was exempt from the moratorium.

From: keith ........ No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual ....... Date: 02-Nov-12


Lew,

"You blast others for using personal observations for their opinions and not scientific studies."

Please explain to me where I did this. Are you referring to my observations of how the APR's were established? No scientific studies are needed as there is no science in the NRC decision.

By the way, one day, I saw 2 bucks and 1 doe. So, there must be a B:D ratio of 2:1. No, that's not right because I killed one of the bucks. It must now be 1:1. How's that for science.

From: Lew ........ No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual ....... Date: 02-Nov-12


Keith, I have no intent to blast anyone, just give my opinion. But I think we are getting to the bottom of things. My OPINION is, there is a lack of understanding of opinion vs fact. You seem to think that if you say it, it is fact. If someone else says something different, it has to be not true. I'll say it again, that I offer opinions and what I believe and state it so, that does not make it fact or imply it is fact. You have convinced DB that you have all the facts, but not me. You believe that people lied, that you know the motives of the NRC and how the 100,000 UP deer hunter think. You may be right, BUT it is all an opinion.

From: keith ........ No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual ....... Date: 02-Nov-12


"You believe that people lied"

I KNOW that a lie was told. I KNOW what was said was false. This is not an opinion, it is FACT.

"that you know the motives of the NRC and how the 100,000 UP deer hunter think"

I never said that. If I led you to believe that, I'm sorry. I don't have any idea of the motives of the NRC. It's just weird that it was one way, then a big turn around the next month, hence the "What the Hell" comment. This is not an opinion or fact, it's just a "what the hell".

As for the 100,000 UP deer hunters and what they think, I can only answer for the comments of those that I have talked with. It is fact that most of these hunters oppose APR's, some support them. Based on this sampling, it is my opinion that the UP hunters (I have only talked to hunters that also live here) are opposed to APR's. The previous survey did not have the support for QDM. That is a fact.

I really don't think we should have to state whether or not our statements are opinion or fact every time. I think we all have the ability to distinguish between them based on the statement. If there is a question, ask it.

From: DB Dalton ........ One Violation Reported on this individual One Violation Reported on this individual ....... Date: 02-Nov-12
THIS VISITOR IS CURRENTLY UNDER WATCH FOR DISRESPECTFUL BEHAVIOR


Lew...You are correct... I do trust that when Keith says something, its believable, but then again, credibility comes from consistency and I've been talking with Keith for some time now.

From: Lew ........ No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual ....... Date: 03-Nov-12


Kieth, The main thing is we are both hunters, we Both love the UP and we want to keep what we have and hopefully make it better. I'm heading up Tuesday and looking forward to a great week before the gun hunters take over. Best of Luck to you. Lew

From: hammer ........ No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual ....... Date: 03-Nov-12


From: hammer ........ No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual No Violations Reported on this individual ....... Date: 04-Nov-12


I have edited all my post myself so they reflect no comments. This is my FINAL post to this thread. I have done so because of the intolerance some have shown toward differing views. The disrespectful behavior and twisting of words and meanings is abhorrent. You can see this on multiple threads regarding similar issues. The intolerance seems to be done by just a few members. They have done it to me and several others. I refuse to participate any further with that kind of debate.

Providing verifiable data or research or studies on this topic is pointless and one sided from what I experienced. It seems its because those opposed want to twist words and meanings to reflect they are correct rather than provide real research. The ONE time real research was provided against my statements it was used as a fact when it it in fact was no such thing.

I believe that our deer herds age structure and sex ratios are way out of whack and I base this off of the DNR'S own words and data. I believe the long term effects could lead to a watering down effect of the deer herds genetics. When the majority of the deer doing the breeding are the young it is unnatural. In a natural herd you have all age classes in fairly equal #'s and this ensure natural breeding by all the deer in the herd. Because young deer are normally suppressed by the bigger older bucks they breed much much less than the rest of the age classes. Nature intended it to be this way and it is this way in herds that are untouched by man. We have altered this natural order to the point where most of the bucks breeding are the young. We have harvested a large portion of the bigger bucks and the young are now the majority of the yearly harvest. Something like 85% of the buck harvest are 1 and a half year old deer. Doing this ensures the age structure will never be close to natural. The herds age structure can never get past an average age of 2 years for the most part because of the harvest rates of the 1 1/2 year old bucks. It can never be natural because a huge % of the young never make it to the age of 2 or 3 yrs old. Doing this also insures the young do most of the breeding. I believe that this could lead to issues over time. I believe it is common sense to look at the natural order and see that when it is changed to much there are consequences.

I believe we should be good stewards of the deer herd. Good stewards of the herd would keep the herd in as close to a natural age structure and sex ratio as possible. This would ensure the strong pass on there genetics in proper natural #'s. This would also ensure there would be no possible man made problem in the future. Man has interfered in other species at times, when we alter nature to much we have experienced severe consequences. We should be prudent and make sure that does not happen to our whitetail deer herd.

I do not support further APR'S at this time and still I was attacked by those opposed to APR'S. Yah I know, sounds crazy to attack one who is on your side on the big main issue. I believe in self imposed APR'S for all hunters who are willing to do so and are in such a position to allow them to still get a deer. It should not be a forced APR.

Giving the research or opinions to show the benefits of passing up young bucks on a voluntary basis seems to not be tolerated here. It is viewed as someone trying to educate the poor dumb hunters who do not know anything. It in fact was just a way to try to help others learn what CAN help if they want to do it. That is viewed as trying to shove some kind of QDM nonsense down peoples throat even though it was all voluntary. Anyone with these views is viewed as a trophy QDM horn hunter even though many who believe the way I do really do not care all that much about getting a monster buck. We just want to see more bucks. If the sex ratios and age structure were at a more natural level we would see more bucks. Its just a bonus that they would have larger antlers because there older and the genetics are more diversified. But even with all that it is pointless to continue the debate with the ones who do these things I mentioned

Happy hunting to all the respectful hunter/debaters out there. Do not fall into the trap of returning the irritation one may throw your way no matter how many times they do it. It solves nothing. It can be hard to ignore some who just will not back off and leave you alone. Don't fall into the trap. Again to all the RESPECTFUL debaters/hunters, Happy hunting and be safe.

God bless



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