Moultrie Products
Alert! Corner hoping bill.
Montana
Contributors to this thread:
Shoots-Straight 21-Jan-13
sbschindler 21-Jan-13
HUNT MAN 22-Jan-13
Straight Arrow 22-Jan-13
JMG 23-Jan-13
MTcountryboy 23-Jan-13
JMG 23-Jan-13
ROUGHCOUNTRY 23-Jan-13
JMG 24-Jan-13
Z Barebow 24-Jan-13
Dry Lake Archer 24-Jan-13
JMG 24-Jan-13
Z Barebow 24-Jan-13
jeck66 24-Jan-13
JMG 24-Jan-13
sbschindler 24-Jan-13
Rondo 24-Jan-13
SBH 26-Jan-13
houndy65 28-Jan-13
Elk Crazy 29-Jan-13
sbschindler 30-Jan-13
ROUGHCOUNTRY 30-Jan-13
sbschindler 30-Jan-13
dr. bob 30-Jan-13
MTcountryboy 30-Jan-13
bowslinger 30-Jan-13
muleguy 30-Jan-13
LittleWound 31-Jan-13
LittleWound 31-Jan-13
MTcountryboy 01-Feb-13
Mtfury 01-Feb-13
Shoots-Straight 02-Feb-13
MTcountryboy 02-Feb-13
Straight Arrow 02-Feb-13
Dunner 03-Feb-13
Dunner 03-Feb-13
ROUGHCOUNTRY 04-Feb-13
dr. bob 04-Feb-13
leatherstocking 08-Feb-13
Dunner 08-Feb-13
dr. bob 08-Feb-13
Big Fin 09-Feb-13
1Simplemann 18-Feb-13
CO Oak 18-Feb-13
21-Jan-13
To all, Wed. in the House Judiciary Committee they are hearing a bill sponsored by Ellie Boldman Hill. HB 235 http://data.opi.mt.gov/bills/2013/billhtml/HB0235.htm Simply put, it would allow for people to hop corners if they have legal access to the first parcel that their standing on. There would be no easements granted. Access has been defined as the #1 reason that hunting is declining across the country. We have a chance to do something positive here. Don't sit on the sidelines on this. Lets make it an issue. Callers may leave messages for legislators or acquire general legislative information by calling the Information Desk at (406) 444-4800. Callers may leave messages for up to 5 individual legislators or 1 legislative committee per call. You can send an e-mail to everyone individually or the committee as a whole: http://leg.mt.gov/css/Sessions/63rd/legwebmessage.asp

From: sbschindler
21-Jan-13

sbschindler's Link

From: HUNT MAN
22-Jan-13
This is a major game changer folks. Please call or email. HUNT

22-Jan-13
Please call or email TODAY!!!

From: JMG
23-Jan-13
I did . . . sent comments to each individual Committee member using Steve's link.

The 2013 House Judiciary Committee is as follows:

Kerns, Krayton (R - Ch) Bennett, Jerry (R - V Ch) MacDonald, Margie (D - V Ch) Blasdel, Mark (R) Court, Virginia (D) Doane, Alan (R) Eck, Jenny (D) Fiscus, Clayton (R) Gursky, Jenifer (D) Halvorson, David (R) Hill, Ellie-Boldman (D) Laszloffy, Sarah (R) Lenz, Dennis (R) Lynch, Ryan (D) O'Neal, Jerry (R) Pease - Lopez, Carolyn (D) Regier, Keith (R) Smith, Bridget (D) Wagoner, Kirk (R) Warburton, Wendy (R)

From: MTcountryboy
23-Jan-13
does anyone know how it went?

From: JMG
23-Jan-13
Last I heard.

Sponsor of HB 235, Rep. Hill (D) and co-sponsor, Rep. Kerns (R) have introduced an amendment to the Bill that will specify "walk-in only access" for some corner crossings. Rep. Kerns (R), who is the Chairman of the Judiciary Committee where this Bill is being heard, is going to delay Executive Action for up to 10 days before a Committee vote is taken.

From: ROUGHCOUNTRY
23-Jan-13
How else would you access an "X" shaped land corner, specifically if it was fenced? Am I missing something in regards to "walk in access?"

From: JMG
24-Jan-13
You may have to work on your gymnastics move and be able to stick the landing without losing all your gear.

From: Z Barebow
24-Jan-13

Z Barebow's Link
Pole vaulters would have an unfair advantage! At my age, I ain't hurdling them fences either! (My sack hangs too low!) LOL!

I signed the petition in link and submitted comments. I urge others to do so also.

24-Jan-13
Signed!

From: JMG
24-Jan-13
Signed.

Z Barebow . . . Too Much Information (TMI). I now have to go wash my eyes out with soap for that visualization. LOL

From: Z Barebow
24-Jan-13
JMG- Soap won't do it! LOL!

From: jeck66
24-Jan-13
Signed!

Someone should post on the main bowsite page also.

From: JMG
24-Jan-13
I sent a comment to each individual Committee member.

Mr. Lenz responded (he was the only one). . . I have to be honest . . . I'm impressed. I appreciated his honesty.

He did however state that because the way the proposed Bill is currently worded, he felt there may be some private property issues and would be voting against the Bill as it is currently written.

From: sbschindler
24-Jan-13
I don't get it,, the way the bill is written you step from one piece of property to another all of which you have permission,, the reason the legislators who aren't in favor of this bill is simple. they are all in favor of outfitters. landowners locking up thousands of acre's for private use. what could be better for them controlling thousands of acres of land and not have to pay for it..

From: Rondo
24-Jan-13
signed and comments sent

From: SBH
26-Jan-13
signed

From: houndy65
28-Jan-13
signed

From: Elk Crazy
29-Jan-13
signed.

From: sbschindler
30-Jan-13
HB 235, the "corner crossing bill" died in the House Judiciary Committee this morning in a 12-8 party line vote. All 12 Republicans on the committee voted against the measure and all 8 Democrats voted for it. The bill would have amended state trespassing law to allow the public to cross at corners where two sections of public land meet in checkerboarded areas.

From: ROUGHCOUNTRY
30-Jan-13
Crap, it almost makes me want to switch political parties. Do they think it infringes on adjoining property rights?

From: sbschindler
30-Jan-13
it almost makes me want to switch political parties.

One of a hundred reasons..

From: dr. bob
30-Jan-13
Rough- they think they want to keep you off your land. Before there done I hope you do.

From: MTcountryboy
30-Jan-13
I guess I'll have to start voting (D)

Can't say I'm surprised........it's sad what money is doing to this sport...

Outfitters are ruining some of the best fishing rivers in the state and they are ruining hunting as well.

I personally wish outfitting was illegal.....if you can't hunt or fish.....sit on your couch and dream about it.

They're is no pride in a guided animal to me anyway....mostly rich people wishing they were something they're not.....it's sad.

From: bowslinger
30-Jan-13
Sad the bill died but hold on there MTcountryboy.

I've guided dozens of hardworking blue collar bowhunters that save for years to go on an outfitted elk hunt. Do you think someone who works their ass off for their family doesn't deserve to buy an elk hunt for themselves? Please don't generalize, it makes you sound stupid.

From: muleguy
30-Jan-13
HB 235-the corner crossing bill was defeated in the House Judiciary today on a straight part line vote.

The good news is the sponsor, Rep. Hill, is going to try and blast it out of Committee on Monday Feb. 18th which is the President's Day holiday. There will be a rally from 10-11 that day on the Capital grounds. Though we cannot testify on the House floor we can be in the gallery to show our support to have this bill blasted out of committee so that it goes to a vote from the entire House. WE NEED A MINIMUM OF 300 PEOPLE TO SHOW UP FOR THIS RALLY. Randy Newberg (On your own Adventures) will be there with his film crew and we will be notifying the press and hope to have the press there from all the major newspapers and TV stations.

Contact every Republican Representative, especially those from your district, and ask for their support to blast this out of committee.

This may be our only shot at getting the bill passed. We must put enough pressure on the legislature that it becomes too much of a hot potato to handle for fear of it's impact on future elections.

The Goetz law firm has done a Memorandum which gives the reasons that corner crossing is legal. Go to www.montanasportsmenalliance.com to review the Memorandum.

Speak Now or Forever Hold Your Peace.

Montana Sportsmen Alliance Leadership Group

From: LittleWound
31-Jan-13
MTcountryboy-Thats about as an ignoramous statement as I have heard on here in a long time. I really doubt you even have a clue as to the real backing of this bill. This is more about new money that has moved into this state than anything to do with an outfitter. And if this is about an outfitter and a lifelong Montana ranch family then shame on them. If you wanna blame somebody blame a real estate agent and a bad economy Im thinking.

From: LittleWound
31-Jan-13

From: MTcountryboy
01-Feb-13
Nobody has anything to lose....except the landowners and the outfitters and they could potentially lose hundreds of thousands of dollars...and you don't think that comes into play.....and I'm ignorant?

Bowslinger

I don't think that wild animals should be bought and sold....it's bad for the sport...and bad for real sportsmen....I don't care what color your collar is....so yes I do generalize...I don't like outfitting...that doesn't make me stupid.

If it wasn't for outfitting, I'd still be able to hunt many of the farms and ranches I used to be able to hunt....before an outfitter came and offered the landowner 20K-30K to keep everyone else off.....I can't blame the landowners for taking it.....Outfitters have locked up hundreds of thousands of acres that anyone used to be able to hunt (especially if you didn't mind stopping by and helping with a branding) So the hardworking blue collar bowhunters you guided probably just needed a spot to go....it's not hard to kill an elk if you have a spot where they like to be.....no self respecting bowhunter I know "needs" a guide for anything.

Have you ever tried to go fishing on the Madison or the Bighorn rivers on a nice day in Sept.? Good luck....and most of the boats are guides...guiding people that don't know how to fish.

My point is....there are people who spend their whole lives doing the the things they love....learning the sport ....respecting the sport and the animals involved... Then there are people who want to go out and kill a big bull....so they hire someone that knows how and has a good spot to go.....there is no pride in that.....and it is becoming more and more difficult to find places to hunt that you don't have to pay for....BECAUSE OF OUTFITTING.. Call me ignorant, call me stupid, I really don't care....I've watched outfitters and rich wannabees completely change hunting and fishing over the last 20 years....and it hasn't changed for the better.....it makes me sad....it's going to be tough for my boy....you guys can rub each others feelers all you want....tell yourself whatever you need to to sleep at night

From: Mtfury
01-Feb-13
I guess I have to ask a question. If you are allowed to corner hop can someone explain how you can do it legaly without getting on the landowners property. There are very few corner pins on the sections especially in more remote areas, so there is no way a hunter can cross on the exact corner. I know some will say GPS, but no hunter packs around the type of GPS that can precisely locate a corner pin. The one I use at work costs around $10,000 and it will locate the exact corner, my Garmin Montana will only get within maybe 5 to 10 feet so no way can I know for positive where the corner is. Just a question on how it should be done?????

02-Feb-13
Mtfury, maybe the landowners should have their property lines surveyed. A lot of public lands have been surveyed and they are marked really well. Ownership does carry certain responsibilities.

If private lands aren't marked, that gives no reason to stop the public from attempting to access their lands. Hell, no landower would mark their lands if that were the case.

If landowners want to keep people off their lands they should fence it or mark it very well. They also better be ready to lose any leases that they have if they post or mark the properties wrong, or the wrong properties, like state land leases.

From: MTcountryboy
02-Feb-13
The state "owns" land too......I would be happy to have some tax dollars going toward locating corners.....half the money they spend serves no purpose....at least this would do something.

Maybe they should have included that in the bill.....it would take a while, but with that 10000 dollar gps that Mtfury has it wouldn't be that big of a deal....I'm sure that most relevant corners could be located by this fall.

So the state locates the corner and marks it....if the landowner disagrees with the location he or she if free to have it surveyed and we will use which ever location the landowner prefers.

I think a good part of the reason the bill died was because it does have rules for posting private land.......I don't want to add any new rules for the landowners to follow.....it is our responsibility to know where we are, on that same note....if the land is not marked....it would be damn near impossible to be convicted of trespassing......you could simply demand that they prove exactly where you were. If there is no boundary line they would have to have the land surveyed just to prove that you were on private......

Most private land owners that are concerned about trespassers do mark their land.

02-Feb-13
Keep in mind that many of the National Forest and BLM sections in checkerboard have been abutted by private lands since the Railroad Grants of the mid-eighteen hundreds. They have been accessed for many purposes by the adjacent private landowners with no fences to mark the boundaries because of no requirement or perceived need to delineate the boundaries. 'Don't know the number, but there are many if not most with no fences, let alone corner fence posts.

Just look at any National Forest recreation map and you will see the great number of checkerboarded public sections. I don't think many of those sections have fencing around them or on any boundary. They are public and the public should be allowed access. I am pretty sure that when the private lands were ceded to the railroads and then subsequently to other private parties the intent was not to then shut them down to public interests. If the GPS technology is not good enough, then for those who have been exploiting the use of these public lands for over a century, it is encumbent on them to mark corners if there is a real concern about John Q. Public putting a six-inch wide track on their fragile soil.

From: Dunner
03-Feb-13
Sent an email to each tonight... hope they get it ramped back up nxt Monday! Thanks to those of you who can show up in person that day!

~ Dunner

From: Dunner
03-Feb-13
Hope Muleguy is right re the new effort on nxt monday the 18th. I sent a msg to each lastnight - took about an hour, but I was happy to do it if it means the possibility of accessing more ground. Thanks to you guys that are going to be there in the flesh!

~ Dunner

From: ROUGHCOUNTRY
04-Feb-13
I would think the many Sportsman groups would also be willing to donate free labor and materials to build up crossover corner posts with pegs for stepping over.

Landowners would be surprised at "our" good will towards them if they would also be willing to bend a little. I have to believe the "silent majority" of landowners would be OK with the bill.

If not, I won't think of them as the "salt of the earth" any longer!

From: dr. bob
04-Feb-13
The only answer lies with the US Congress.

08-Feb-13
What does anyone think about a test case? Jim Goetz's article only related to the constitutional issue of the bill, I understand, but is a prohibition on corner-hopping illegal? It seems to me there is great disparity among county attorneys and law enforcement on whether it even constitutes an offense. This disparity must arise out of a difference of opinions... For a test case you would need a conviction and then an appeal. And perhaps most importantly an appellate attorney. I haven't thought much about the grounds for such a claim, maybe equal protection? I can't quite envision the argument, if anyone else can I'd love to hear it.

From: Dunner
08-Feb-13
Leather- I think it's more a matter of relations between us "hoppers" and landowners vs. actual legalities.

Historically, I doubt you would find a Co. Atty that would pursue the matter. However, I'd feel better about doing it if there were in fact a legal "permission" to do so. I respect private landowners... I just want to be able to access what is public ground w/ a clear conscience if this passes.

This is exciting - hope they take another look nxt monday! ~ Dunner

From: dr. bob
08-Feb-13
Leatther- go do it you got my backing.

From: Big Fin
09-Feb-13
If this bill dies a final death, I am sure there is going to be a court case to eventually settle the issue. Would be nice for all sides to know the constitutional status of corner crossing.

From: 1Simplemann
18-Feb-13
Anyword on this? Todays the 18th.

From: CO Oak
18-Feb-13
The attempt to blast it out of committee failed on a 45-54 vote. Six R's voted for it.

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