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Why NH, NY, CT > VT?

Why do you all think the surrounding states offer much better whitetail opportunities than VT? It seems like every year bucks are taken in surrounding states that would break our records. Do you think its due to better food sources, genetics, less hunting pressure, or regulations? Or could be a combination of all the above? I understand our winters are tougher than those in CT, however they get a good amount of snow as well. I haven't been able to figure out why VT can't sustain a decent deer population especially when looking at quality of our herd. Any insight will be appreciated. Thanks.

I have been bothered by this for some time now. Yes we have snow during the winter months but nothing like when I was a kid. Our winters are much shorter now and not as much snow. I dont buy that excuse. I honestly believe that we killed off alot of our buck 10-15 years ago and it has never rebounded. They say we have to many does and we need to kill more. I believe the opposite. We have a good amount of does and not enough buck. If we went to 3 points to a side it would really help replenish the number of bucks. Once this is done you will see so much more deer movement. Competition for food and a hot doe would have deer on their feet. The 2 point restriction isn't doing anything. We are still killing 1 1/2 year old buck. A healthy buck should have at least 2 points on one side.

I did some math from the deer pop number the state puts out. I assumed that bucks man up 1/3 of the total population (i think i am being very generous). They say we have about 120,000 deer in the state. That would mean we have 40,000 buck. Last year we killed 8,075 buck. Where are the other 32,000 and all the new buck? Do most of our buck die of old age? If you go back over the course of 10 years and do the math we should have 150,000 buck alone(just an estimate). It is very screwed up if you really start to look into it. I could go on forever and i know some people are going to completely blame it on habitat but its so much more than that. Thats why I hunt ohio every year.

Joe

Habitat!!then all of the above! some people think that the herd is in great shape if they see 20 deer a day others think that shooting a Big Buck every few years the herd is in great shape! as far as where people travel to its where they think they have the best chance of fulfilling there personal goals.But habitat plays the biggest role, great habitat offers different options for wildlife managers ,Vermonts habitat is in dreadfully shape particularly our winter habitat and can't support the numbers of deer that where common 30 to 40years ago and probably will never be able to again so regulations need to control numbers .Vermonster never put any stock in F&W numbers.50 years ago when I started hunting saw 20+ deer a day thats when they said there where 250 thousand deer now i feel that with 120 thousand i should see half 10+ a day,Now I feel that i am a much better hunter then 50 years ago and i have bow hunted a full 16 days and have not seen a deer while hunting have seen Moose and bear that i never saw then but 0 deer.

The state should turn the deer herd over to New York and let them manage it for a while. It is sad to hunt here. At least you can get out and walk for exercise

I live in the Champlain valley. The habitat here is better than certain parts of PA that have plenty of deer. potter county PA is very simlilar to Vt and they have a great deer herd. i understand that habitat does play a role in some areas but i believe that most bow hunters hunt locally and not in really big mature woods. Like me I hunt about an 800 acre parcell in shelburne. Yes i did shoot a nice 8 pointer there last year but that is the only deer i have seen there in 2 years. I know that I am a pretty decent hunter and my knowledge allowed me to get an opportunity but there is no reason why I am not seeing deer from the stand and only on the cameras. We need to create more competition. I have said it so many times on this site, but for the ones that havent heard it. Look up Gary Alte and read what he has done to the state of PA. And for the record I am not from PA, i have never hunted there, i have only stopped for the night while going to Ohio. I have relatives there that are actually not going to ohio with us this year because the hunting has become so good there thanks to Gary.

Beanie and Vermonster - thanks for your insight. I am relatively new to the scene. Born and raised but only been hunting for 7-8 years now. Never seen great numbers but have read the management reports and i too believe we are killing off the healthiest of the young bucks by having the three point rule. Basically culling out quality bucks as soon as they become legal. 800 acres in shelburne sounds very nice! Do you hunt shelbune farms as part of their bow hunt?

Not yet! Im the next person on the waiting list though. Im glad you brought Shelburne farms up though. It is a perfect example of QDM even though its for different reasons. They only allow a certain number of hunters and deer killed each year. They aren't doing this for the hunters, they are doing it for the tourists. If left alone they would have deer everywhere But they can't let anyone hunt because there wont be any deer left. I have made the point many times that why can Shelburne farms manage a great deer herd but the state can't.

Sorry to go off again! It is a very nice place. My sister got married there last fall and I got to see alot of deer throughout the property.

Here is a pic of the 8 point i shot on opening weekend last year. There are great genetics for VT in my area. I had 3 8 pointers running together before the season on trail cam. All at night though and not one pic since the season started.

Not sure why thats upside down. Its not upside down on my ipad.

Vermonster - I tried sending a PM but cannot. Send me a PM and I will try to reply.

I just sent u a PM

To me its very simple...put as many hunters in the woods with long range rifles and a tag in their pockets in the middle of the rut and voila, we are killing too many bucks. This is not rocket science, and I think you will see some new stuff coming from the new deer biologist about this very issue, overharvest of bucks...

I also agree with that mike. We are one of the few states that rifle hunts the rut.

Mike nailed it. Annual legal buck harvest may exceed 80% in some WMU's. Data suggests majority of the breeding happens after the start of our rifle season, and majority of our legal/larger antlered bucks are taken prior to breeding. Since 2008 40% of all 3 year old deer checked by biologists had <6 points. That figure was 12% prior to the antler restriction. It appears that less bucks are reaching 3 years of age than pre antler restriction too. I got this information from Adam Murkowski in response to an email I sent him regarding the antler restriction.

I think the solution to the problem would be one FIREARM buck per season. If you are lucky enough to shoot one with a bow... We'll your lucky enough. I can't even remember the last buck I saw during bow season. It is the only way I truly feel that you could SOMEWHAT make everyone happy. Having it so you can shoot any buck will help with hunter recruitment (not just talking youths here), regain lost hunters, make the meat hunter happy, make the hunter doesn't care what they shoot as long as its a buck happy, and the trophy hunter will continue doing what they do. Also need winter habitat improvements. Can't have more deer if winter carrying capacity isn't increased. I think shooting more doe is warranted. Its deer management, not buck management. Thinning the doe out closes the ratio, allows the remaining deer to have a better chance at surviving the winter, creates more competition for breeding, and promotes a shorter more intense rut period. That way the bucks can get back to putting weight on before severe winter hits. I think we can agree that shooting breed doe during muzzleloader isn't good for anything. I hunt in units I and M mostly, which don't have high deer densities. However, there are plenty of old doe that are beyond the point of being productive members of the herd.

Pa is a 1 buck state

Ohio is also a 1 buck state and look at all the deer there. Just wish archery season didn't close down at all so we could see what was happening here during the 1st week of November.

Too much National Forest, not enough logging, loss of farmland. It's all about habitat.

So I just got back from my Ohio trip. This year a friend of a friend went with us. We talked about hunting pretty much the whole week. He lives in Groten about 15 minutes from NH. He hunts NH alot and says it great hunting. During august and september him and his wife do a 6 mile loop through NH looking for deer. He said it was nothing to see 40 deer in one evening. Even a couple rack buck. This loop starts 15 minutes from his house. He has also hunted literally both sides of the river. On the VT side he said he could hunt very hard and be lucky to have a couple deer sightings. He also hunts the land right across the river and the hunting is great. He says he can go out and see deer almost every night. So here are two tracts of land separated by a couple hundred yards of water that are not even comparable for hunting. Oh and also habitat is the same on both sides too.

Just thought I would share

same thing I see on a daily basis Vermonster , as I live close to the river

ditto

I would like to take more deer. Who wouldn't. I don't see one easy solution. Habitat is a big one. I can't see how more stringent antler restrictions will be a good thing in the long run. Far too many hunters don't even see deer. I have seen a record number of spike horns this year and I am not sure if it is a good sign or a bad sign. Maybe we need to ban trophy houses. We definitely need to log more.

I stopped at the check station the other day and was talking to my butcher when I dropped my ohio deer off and we the most popular age bucks being killed are 2 1/2s. These are our main breeding group and we are taking them out of the equation every year. This antler restriction isnt working at all. We need to go to one buck and stop shooting does for a couple years. And yes I have said it a hundred times but i know certain areas have a big problem with habitat but that is not the excuse for areas like Chittenden and addison counties and other areas near urban areas.

Where you hunt makes a difference for sure. If you hunt Honey Hollow you can walk a long time before cutting a track. A lot of places down lower you cut tracks going by swing sets. Deer don't seem to mind but I choose not to hunt someone's back yard. Do other states limit the number of hunters in the woods?

I didn't mean hunting back yards. I hunt about 600 acres in shelburne. I originally said 800 but since I made that statement I have measured it out more accurately. What I meant was alot of people hunt around town or closer to home simply because they dont have the time to travel a ways to bigger woods, or have, and realize there are more deer around home. I understand that most state game lands or national forests can no longer support deer. There is just as much feed and cover in the woods I hunt here as there is in ohio. As far as snow goes, it doesnt stick around long in shelburne. If we get a storm, within 7-10 days the snow has almost completely melted. My back lawn reappears multiple times throughout the winter. The point I am trying to make is that in areas like this, we can't blame habitat or harsh winters. There has been way to many deer killed over the years and its going to take more than an antler restriction that protects half the 1 1/2 year old deer to get the heard back on the incline instead of the decline.

Im not sure I understand where the question about other states limiting the number of hunters is coming from, but yes alot do. All the states with a draw system in place.

Sorry guys but the numbers don't back most of the complaints when it comes to comparing Vt, Nh and Maine. At least not since the no spike ban.

These are a couple 2011 stats... 3.5 yo old bucks harvested....Vt 25%, NH 29%, ME 21%

Antlerless deer harvested per square mile.......Vt .50 NH .50 ME .20

There is a lot more info in this PDF. Basically in any category you bring up Vermont is very similar than the other two states. Now compared to other states, we may not fare as well, but I would submit neither does NH and Me., so I think most of our hunting opportunities are a product of our winters here in the NE. Can we make it better? Sure!

http://www.qdma.com/uploads/pdf/WR2013.pdf

Hello Maya: It is good to see you again. One simple fact seems to escape most of us. If you keep a stable deer herd The births and deaths each year have to be approximately equal. If 50,000 deer are born then 50,000 must die. Assuming human hunters take around 15,000 deer a year we have to realize that we are not the only or the most significant factor in the deer herd. My numbers are fabricated but you get the idea. Before anyone starts throwing stones I still believe we are an important tool. We can discriminate on what we choose to take.

Hi greenmountain. I think I see what you are saying but what has that got to do with the comparisons of hunting between the states? You lost me.

Maya: If you read back through the thread it is implied that the herd numbers the f&W department uses in its model then there should be a deer behind every bush. I do not think the numbers are totally accurate but I don't think they are fiction either. I am sorry to confuse the issue. I go back to my original thinking. If we want to take more deer we have to have habitat to support more deer.On a side note, It was humbling this season to catch nine different spike horn bucks on my game camera then not see a single antler through the whole season. Hunting in Vermont is not as good as it could be but it is not as bad as it once was. The old timers I used to hunt with told me of times when seeing a deer track in a season was a good year.

I agree Greenmountain. The stats don't back it up that NH, Maine are so much better off than us. Are the states herd numbers correct, absolutely not, they're not meant to be. That's why they call it "estimated" deer herd. It doesn't really matter anyways. The hard numbers of deer killed and those trends are what need to be looked at. Total bucks killed, does killed, 1.5's, 2.5's, 3.5yo's killed etc.. Seems as though those numbers fair quite favorable to these other states.

Man, if you are on facebook, like Vermont big bucks club. They post deer kill pics from around the state that people send in. There are some real nice bucks being shot in the state!

The thing with numbers is depending on who you get them from there different... I know this , this yr I hunted all 3 states (VT,NH,ME) and have passed between 10-15 bucks in NH since the season started , was in ME for about a total of 5 days and passed 15-20 does and had could've had 2 opportunities on real nice bucks. In VT this yr I see about 20 hunters in the woods , few does and one or 2 legal bucks in twice the hunting ... Numbers may say one thing but I see it every yr , you think VT has produced some nice bucks this yr (and it has), check out ME ! Banner yr in Maine this yr and mass just produce yet another 200" deer . VT is wayyy behind and if we get a bad winter this yr things wont be good , I think thats why we're seeing such a good yr for nice bucks this yr becuase so arent the surrounding states...a couple mild winters will do that. During bowseason I stopped by a few check stations and there was more 1.5 yr old bucks reported than does in a few places the first few days , what was the point of the AR again ?

Well I'll take their general statistics any day over your anecdotal evidence. The hunter success rate says it all. Vt 30% NH 15% Maine no stat. Is your shot at a real good P&Y deer better in those states maybe, but there are no statistics on that. Again, can Vermont do a better job managing the herd, sure, but it's not as bad as many think.

Where in the hell do you get a 30% success rate for VT ?

I have not found any official reports of hunter success rate. If we had 80,000 hunters last year then the success rate would be more like 17% How does this compare with the good old days when we had 250,000 deer in Vermont? Actually pretty good. I hunted in those days. We had well over 100,000 hunters in the woods. There was a one deer limit, bucks only. At some point an archery deer became a bonus deer but bow hunters were scarce. I saw a lot of deer tails in those days but seldom saw antlers. The real data: 120,000 plus deer hunters took 17,?00 bucks in 1966 That would put the success rate at about 14%. I remember a lot of years at less than 10% I hope to get better data from the F&wildlife dept.

1Bad if your going to get that worked up that you need to start swearing, then there's no need to carry on with the discussion. If you are calm enough and anyone else wants to read, it's right in the pdf I provided. This was a 2011 report I believe.

OK maya , since when is hell swearing professor ? bottom line is you have posted land you manage and try to compare to compare your hunting to everyone else's. Guess what , most hunters dont have that and cant keep people away from them...thats tough but you wouldnt know I've bowhunted now for 17 yrs in VT and I can tell you when I first started I didnt know crap but saw and shot at some nice racked deer , now with trail cams and the latest equipment I'd be lucky to see one...I can and have gone to multiple other states every year and get a 3yr old + on cam in a few days and most time can at least get an eye on that buck so I cant suck too bad Do you hunt outside of VT ? If your into numbers , check out the northeast big buck club ...every year VT has the least entries for new england and doesnt hold a candle to the other states and we bring in 292 million in outdoor recreation ? wow

What does the land I have to hunt have anything to do with the pdf I posted and the comparison of these states? These are over all numbers. BTW that farm I hunt is not posted legally, just a posted private property sign at the gate coming into it and I hunt several different places, state and fed land included.

I also hunt other states, even hunted Maine. Overall Vermont is not as good as many/most states. I'm just saying that the grass isn't always greener as this pdf points out. Throughout the years here on this site I've always said I thought the state can do better on it's management, but as this pdf shows, maybe it's not all that bad.

Now I'm done with this, you can't debate the numbers act like an adult without the swearing and now calling me.. "professor", Man that's childish, and it's certainly nothing to get that worked up over.

Good luck with the smoke pole guys!

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