If one and you're done grows all of these big bucks - then why did it take Pennsylvania establishing the antler restrictions before they started seeing bigger bucks? Because they have been one and done for as long as I can remember. Before antler restrictions went into effect I would almost bet the average size of their bucks was smaller than WV. I know - next someone will say Ohio or Iowa or whatever state but I think it is agriculture there to be quite honest with you.
Plus, if we really want to limit the buck kill then why not start with the non-resident hunter? Really are non- residents coming here to kill bucks or to kill deer for the freezer and the opportunity to hunt more? Put a one buck limit on non-residents first and allow them to kill multiple does if necessary.
I appreciated when the WVBA stepped up to the plate and fought for us to get extra tags. I would even be ok with "two and your thru" but really do we need to go one and your done? I don't think so - I think limiting non- residents buck tags and stop having antlerless seasons late in the season when quite a few button bucks and bucks that have already lost their head gear are harvested would help tremendously. I also think some antler restrictions would help in the long run more than a one and your done limit.
Another thing - how will "one and your done" effect the economy? Will the hunter that kills his buck early in the season go out and hunt does or will he hunt a neighboring state instead?
I know there are quite a few of you who like the one and your done idea but is there not a better solution for bigger bucks?
I would like to think that maybe with the push from hunters and hunting organizations that just maybe we could make the difference in getting a better deer management plan implemented.
But I see where you all are coming from but it doesn't hurt to do some wishing or dreaming either! LOL
Bottom line is we have the largest bow only area in the lower 48 to grow those deer. We have big deer elsewhere, many more than most realize or care to admit. And regardless of what is implied, you will never convince me the average hunter is filling his 3 buck quota. Some people just want to impose a rule that would help them meet their goals versus implementing the resources to reach it themselves. It is cheaper for them that way.
If you owned 200 acres, would it be easier and cheaper to restrict you neighbor of killing 2 bucks that may frequent both properties or be forced to buy enough land to do it on you own property? It really is all about priorities. Isn't that was is said by those same people when lease rates, licences fees, or anything involving increases in out of pocket expense's for the average hunter is brought up? Yet if a few less hunting trips were taken by those guys, it seems to me they could afford the right piece of property to do their thing on versus insisting everyone change to benefit them.
I am not judging anyone, or implying their choices are wrong. I'm just tired of it being pointed out that sacrifices needs to be made by the majority to fit their agenda. It goes both ways. And since the only true problem we have hurting the number of big bucks in this state is poaching, it is an obvious black and white situation in my opinion. God Bless
Like or not, as long as we have the 3 buck limit, our buck age structure will not change. But, i think thats exactly what the majority of hunters in this state want.
They want quanity over quality,,,Heck, i bet you would have an easier time getting a 4th buck limit versus a 2 or 1.
The state also can not see past its face. All they see is $$$ form extra tags and the insurnace companies-farmers wanting every deer killed.
Myself, i think 1 and done would be awesome, but i am in the minority and will continue to go out of state to hunt big deer...Like 3 of our bordring states(KY-OH-PA). That should show you that limits on bucks and/or restrictions work for producing big rached, older age deer.
Once again I have a hard time believing all the PA or any other non-resident hunters come here to hunt 3 bucks. I think they come here to fill their freezers and have more hunting time. So if non-residents were limited to 1 buck but multiple does would there be revenue losses? I don't think so...JMO
So now if we put a statewide 1 and you're done limit in would it effect the state's economy because resident hunters would go to other states to hunt an additional buck instead of staying in WV and hunt does - I think it would hurt! LOL I guarantee you that corn sales would go down! LOL
Perhaps if you prioritize the importance of antlers so much, take two seasons of hunting trip fee's, put it on a down payment of your own land, and manage it for antlers above what the state does. If you look hard enough, you'll find a parcel that will have a timber value to all but pay it off.
Not trying to tell you what to do anymore than you are trying to determine my hunting as well. Be honest, how many legal hunters you know, percentage wise, are killing their 3 limit of bucks? I've lived all over this state and have never known a legal hunter anywhere to do it. Most shoot the heck out of does, and choose their buck/buck's. If you work for a living it just doesn't leave much time to kill all those deer.
Jay D, PA's antler restriction only worked because they declared war on the female deer population, the hunters participated, and the sate started rotating it's timber. All of it worked together to get it done. Sure enough, if WV would do it, it would certainly increase the horn size of the average deer harvested because we have a very active timber industry creating perfect deer habitat and we have been shooting the heck out of the does. However, even after 15 years of intense doe harvest, we still have too many deer in certain areas, and will until the habitat changes. I've said it since joining here, culling deer herds in prime habitat is a full time job. A year or two of bad weather keeping hunters out of the woods or mild winters with good mast, you have lost a lot of what you've gained.
Currently the reasons the dnr hasn't buckled to the ever pressing demand for less buck harvest's are many, and finances are not the biggest culprit most try to make it out to be. If they do so, they'll simply raise the cost of the tag fellas. It isn't rocket science and government has no intention of operating on a smaller budget. Regardless of your desire's, there is sustainability in this herd and this management plan. God Bless
As far as buying my own land, i have considered it...But, unless you can buy a bunch or have neighbors that share your own belief's in QDMA, its not worth the hassle. Neighbors killing everything with horns, trespassers.......I will take my time and money to states that have a better grasp of quality deer management.
And i see no contradiction....just the truth.
Corporate pressure is a leading force in what the DNR does....
I still think we need to look at the big picture -I think "one and you're done" would end up hurting more than helping. I think revenue would suffer and I think the overall population would skyrocket again. But I could be wrong....
Don't get me wrong I know that is a lot more hunters than WV but I do believe they have about twice the deer numbers we have too but again not for sure on that...
I will have to check it on it...
That is one of the main reason I never felt 1 and done was all that great. Plus, I just see a lot of wives and young children killing a lot more deer if you go to one and done.
JR - I agree if you want to start with Antler restrictions say the second buck has to be 6 or 8 or better or whatever requirements. I still think you reduce Non-residents buck tags to one only. Then let them kill does - again you cannot tell me all these non-residents come to WV to kill 3 bucks - I think they come to fill their freezer and to have more hunting time. I would almost bet the house that the DNR would not see any loss in revenues by doing this.
I would love to see a 2 buck limit for residents and a 1 buck limit for non-residents.
Also don't a lot of those states that have the one buck limit also only allow shotguns and no rifles?
And going to the midwest would probably be a better option but there is something about the 4 WV counties that is intriguing. Not for sure on buy or leasing yet just really putting the iron into the fire right now...LOL
I couldn't get it any other way on my I phone, but this shows the top whitetail hunting license sales states.
I think reducing the limit of bucks will help some but I don't think 1 and you're done is the answer. Plus there are so many other factors involved - agriculture -shotguns instead of rifles being used in most of the one and done states. Don't get me wrong I don't think we should go over board but seriously is killing 2 bucks a year going over board?
JR, I think you are misunderstanding my point. My point is show me where the biological problem lies. I'm not interested in the type of deer horns you want to kill. I'm interested in making sure we get this right. We have healthy herds that can withstand harsh winters, lots of deer, Lots of quality deer, And he freedom to do it year after year without worrying about drawing tags, or paying intense lease rates.
Before we change buck harvests, shouldn't we consider what the outcomes will be. It is a matter of opinion at this point but, if you look at what has happened every where when Horn management over shadows other management objectives, I think it is more than fair to assume the same thing will happen here. Is that worth trading a healthy herd for? No way in my opinion. This is my point. Not shooting spikes or fork horns every year. God Bless
And I am not saying that our DNR is terrible either but I would like to hunt bigger bucks. I get what WVMountie is saying too.
I guess I just know a poor bunch of hunters because I don't know anyone who has killed 3 bucks a year. For myself I normally like to kill a decent buck and then for me to kill a second buck it has to be better than the first. I don't want to kill a buck the first few weeks and then have to shoot does for the rest of the season. And I prefer not to have to go to another state and hunt. Even if I were to kill my first buck the next to the last day of the season - I want a second buck tag so I can have the opportunity to go out the last day of the season for a bigger one. I guess if that makes me a game hog then I am a game hog.
I am not putting anyone down who goes on a guided hunt but that is not for me. I have been on several and just did not have a good time even though I harvest an animal each time. I just felt for me it was like I was shooting something that someone else did all the work for - I want to do the scouting and treestand or blind placement and not count on someone else to do it for me. And again - I don't want anyone getting upset over this - its just me - I am not saying anything bad about you it is just the way it made me feel.
I agree, shooting more does will go a long way towards fixing the problem of too many deer and a skewed ratio in the areas it is a problem. Just not real sure the guys you claim aren't shooting the does are going to suddenly start with a change in buck Quota or an AR implemented.
JR, spend some time on the "Big Buck" state websites and see how many hunters there routinely kill 140 inch deer. It is a case of limited hunter access and a form of AR's and buck quotas that grow those deer. Hunter access being by far the most influential. BTW, there is plenty of access down here if you know where to look. If interested, I'll point you there. God Bless
But you're right about the rest of the state. But even if we could get a higher percentage of 4 1/2 year old bucks in the states herd it would be nice. They would probably be 120-130 bucks, which is a nice quality buck, plus if people knew they were around they might not be as willing to release or pull the trigger on a small buck.
10 years ago i was one of the guys who would kill 3 bucks and all the does i could..Big, small, it didn't matter.
But now after killing many , many deer and then hunting out of state and killing someone's ones(nothing over 140 yet), my desire to kill small bucks or many bucks has decreased.
Deer numbers play into that as well. As a kid we had to hunt in Pendleton county because that area, eastern panhandle, was where the deer were and you killed whatever buck you saw. Now, you can go to any county and see more in a day than we did in a week.
For me, i enjoy watching the deer i pass(and the ones the neighbors dont kill) get bigger. Most of the time i may only see them 2 or 3 times a year in person, but have hundreds of pictures of them. But i also enjoy watching my son and nephews kill their first bucks and does.
Thats why i like the 1 and done. If you want to kill that 3 point , go for it. That leaves the other samll deer to get some age on them..If you want to hold out, you can and know that the age structure benefits from it.
There may not be a right answer, but if you want to killbigger, older bucks, you cant have a 3 buck limit...SHow me a state that produces older age bucks with that kind of limit....I say none
I am interested. If I can take a week or two off and have access to a place where I can see those bucks here I am all for it. Hook me up. I will believe it when I see it. I will even pay you a finders fee. :) LOL
I do that by simply not shooting anything smaller and taking at least 3-4 does per buck. Last year we shot 9 does and no bucks. Most years my wife and I take 2-3 bucks. Starting last year we're going to try a 125 inch minimum. Last year I saw or had photos of about 8 bucks between 110-120. Just have to wait and see if they are still here this year?
For me the pictures that I am posting show what a decent buck is for me. I probably have about 3 to 4 times more of just the racks that I did not have mounted that are just as nice. Most were killed here in Berkeley or Morgan Counties and a couple from Tucker County from when I hunted around Parsons, WV..
Yes, I shoot does too, and I guess call me a game hog but I want to be able to shoot 2 bucks per season if the right ones come along for me. I don't want to go to the midwest or out west for a 2nd buck when I can hunt some nice ones here in WV. It is great for those who do like to go to those areas and spends thousands - it is just not for me.
Yes I would love to shoot a monster. I think we have the opportunity to do so here in WV but I just don't think going to "one and done" is the answer. I think most of the 1 and done states you have other things that are a bigger reasons for bucks to mature like: 1- only shotguns 2- shorter gun seasons 3- antler restrictions in place 4- limits on non-resident buck tags - just to name a few.
My ideal strategy for WV would be for shorter gun seasons and/or not as many doe seasons (now that you can kill two deer a day), antler restrictions on at least the second buck, 2 buck limit for residents and 1 for nonresidents, some kind of a better check in system and I do feel like with the phone in system or online system - a picture should be required, stiffer fines for the cheaters, and I am gonna come out and say it "a crossbow season" do not include them in bow season.
Expanding on the shorter gun season and antlerless seasons - still issue the same amount of tags and if it looks like enough does are not harvested then bring in a special late season the first week of January or something. Heck maybe even make it that the extra tag can be used for 1 buck or 2 does - hunter's choice.
Also, I am in NO way an advocate of shortening seasons.
BTW, Indiana's buck season is 3 weeks in the middle of the rut. Kentucky's is in the peak of the rut with high powered rifles but it is only one week.
I would bet more out of staters come here to kill their freezer dder than WV residents go out of state to trophy hunt
I look at PA because I think out of all states they are more comparable to WV and their 1 deer limit did squat. Now when they added in A.R. They started to see improvements.
Now for the reality. AR is difficult. Either points or width. Without a doubt width is the best. Width determines age better than points. You can have10 pointers that are 12 inches wide and with a point restriction that would be legal, but you would be taking the best genes out of the pool at a very young age. Also you could have a forkhorn that is 18 inches wide that is 4 yrs old and needs to be removed but isn't a legal buck if you had a 3 or 4 point per side rule.
Also while for bowhunters it would probably be less of a problem but for gun hunters how do you measure width on a deer standing 100 yards away broadside, knowing that may be your only chance. I think a lot of dead deer would be left in the woods.
PA hunters had years or decades to deal with a 1 buck limit, but when Gary Alt put antler restrictions into law and hammered the doe population they ran him out of the state on a rail. Only now, what 10 or 12 years later are they killing great bucks and starting to realize that he did something great.
I still think it's going to have to go thru steps to get people to accept it here. I think that if they tried a 1 buck limit and antler restrictions here at the same time people would go nuts. That's why I think a stepwise approach is best. Decrease the limit to 2 for five years on a trial basis to see what happens. I don't think it would make a huge difference , but I do think it would make a difference. Once people start seeing that, then their opinions and views may change.
Antler restrictions are a tough subject , especially when you are trying to get kids involved in hunting, or even girlfriends, wife's, or friends that have never hunted. A word of caution, never take you're wife and girlfriend hunting at the same time, especially when they both have guns. It never turns out good!
I also like the step approach...maybe start out at 2 bucks for residents and 1 for non for the first 3-5 years, then go to 1 and done.
As to measuring horns - I think limit it to number of points instead of inches - and if someone is shooting bucks at distances too far to tell or in too thick of place - maybe they need to start having a little more patience until they can determine what they are shooting at. Just another reason for me to believe it should be shotguns only instead of rifles.
Babysaph. What is a big buck a spike over 6 inches? Lol
Again I think one and done would hurt in WV just because of revenue and I think you would have less hunting even for antlerless deer. Again that is just my opinion - I may be wrong and you 1 and done'ners may be right. Whose to say???
Its funny though how opinions are - most of the people who want the "one and your done" program don't want antler restrictions! I just don't understand that but again opinions do vary! And of course - everyone knows my opinion by now - "2 and ur thru" with AR's and "1 and done" for non-residents. I think we all agree that reducing the buck limit to under 3 a year would be great its after that when the math gets a little fuzzy. I just think there are so many other factors that must be added to the equation.
Again it is nice talking about it and unless some kind of unity of hunters and hunting organizations in WV happens and a group effort is made for change then we won't see anything happen. It is ok to have all the opinions but man there is just too much name calling and better than thou attitudes raising their heads up anymore - in all walks of life. I actually enjoy seeing the different opinions and I enjoy debating the differences - I think most of the guys on this site are pretty darn nice and will be the first to help a fellow in need - lets keep it that way and just respect other's opinions even if they are a little silly.
Take care everyone and have a wonderful weekend! The birds have been gobbling and strutting all day long here today - may need to get the camera out tomorrow!
One of the best parts about giving people hope of a larger buck is that when they actually feel like they might see a good buck, they will pass up the spikes.
I can't really blame someone for killing a 4 point when the best deer they've ever seen has been a basket 8 points.
I think you would see a higher cost in license fees because of the decrease in hunter numbers. But again - I don't think we will see any changing of the limits anytime soon here in WV.
Link to Pa stats from 1982 to 2008
