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Do ya all remember the CCW craze?

We had threads on here about that, both good and bad and in between. Lot's of comments!

Ya hardly hear much of anything anymore about CCW do you? Well, at least I dont.

It's all about newness and jumping on the band wagon -new and exciting.

Over the years I learned quickly that carrying a concealed gun was a bit of a pain in the neck. I suppose most folks by now know that as well....

I suspect the Xbow will go the same route.

Gotta have one, gotta shoot one..yada yada yada!

I predict that once the dust settles, we will see a reduction and yes, folks will still be out there, but after the newness wears off - numbers will decline!

Could be wrong - just my spin! Hey I was wrong about Zinger!

"It's extremely important, these are high-powered should fired weapons," said Thomas. "I say treat them like a gun.

DNR Warden calling them a gun. I didn't say it he did. They need to be moved to the gun deer season. If they were, I would consider one for the silence of the shot. If I hunted public land during gun, I would use one because if you shoot a deer you won't give your location away. No pumpkins coming to see what you shot.

Thanks for the post Arrow.

The warden was speaking towards saftey - they are dangerous - Hell a sling shot can be dangerous given to the wrong person!

About the move to just deer season - would'nt hold your breath! What they need to be and where they actually land and stay are two different things - for some that appears to be unfortunate!

In the meantime, it's a wait and see!

I think moving them to gun season is a fair and legitimate compromise.

In recent years DNR revenues have declined as hunter numbers have dropped. Recruiting new hunters and retaining older hunters will increase the amount of revenue generated for the DNR through additional funding from the Pittman-Robinson excise tax on archery equipment. All archery manufacturers pay 11% tax to the IRS and component manufacturers pay 12.4% tax to the IRS. The tax revenue is ultimately distributed to state wildlife agencies on a pro-rata formula based upon license sales. The inclusion of the crossbow will generate millions of dollars in business development and tax revenue for the State as a result of increased retail sales. Allowing crossbows will also help mitigate the loss of revenue and business as hunters leave Wisconsin to hunt in states with more favorable hunting regulations.

This was taken from a crossbow site to the people of Wisconsin before its passage. How many people are leaving Wisconsin to hunt elsewhere? Pretty funny stuff!

THEY ARE A JOKE

10orbetter, great point about a Knight ML. How many of you here that use muzzle loaders actually use a side hammer with patched round balls and real Goex black powder? Or how many use a Knight, CVA, TC, etc with sabots and powder pellets or other modern powder?

Like BT said this craze will end in a year or two and then everyone's whining will just be a foot note. Like he said about CC also. When it came out handgun and holster sales sky rocketed. Handgun sales are still doing good but holster sales have plummeted because people are realizing that it's a pain in the a$$ to carry a gun both figutativley and literally! I'm even thinking of picking up a crossbow just to shoot one deer with one so I can say I did and then go back to the compound just like I did with a muzzle loader and a handgun. I like trying different things and I suspect I'm not the only one who does.

Yes the season will have more archers than ever but for me I lost some of my bow hunting passion when it happened. I don't own land and cant control their use.

Gosh Razor - all caps! Very upset - I care what you think! May not agree with what your thinking, but I still care ole' buddy!

Anywho - we all need to settle down and see how this thing plays out - nothing we can say or do will change anything in 2014 - let's see how this plays!

We might like it...or hate it -

Pasq - I suspect you'll be OK this season! You are an adaptable individual!

the Wisconsin 2k plus bow hunters will be halfed in a few years!

I hunt with a compound, would hope to one year go back to a recurve. To me, the true archers are the ones that use the stick and string. Compound shooters would have to be the second true archers. No disrespect toward anyone that has to hunt with a crossbow, but they don't even belong in archery. Too many of them will fall into the wrong hands.

Also, yes, I still use my Hawkens for the muzzle loader season. Deep inside, it isn't right how that snowballed from what it was supposed to be.

I asked him why - he said a crossbow would be too easy he's sticking with his compound - WOW.

Of course...that's just one kid.

BT is incorrect. After 4 years of full inclusion,in Michigan, 49.5% of people use crossbows during the archery season.

As of about a month ago, WI archery license sales have declined over 20% and crossbow sale have well over made up the difference. No real increase in hunter recruitment so far.

WI crossbow numbers will eclipse MI in the first year, numbers already support it. So far, everything is going as we predicted (which fell on deaf ears). I expect the success rate to be as much if not more than MI.....over 10% more than gun and bow.

You would have to take last years archery license sales less the disabled xbow permits issued and add that same number as a starting point for xbow sales this year. Only then can we see the true net effect of added "new" xbow hunters and any defections from the vertical world.

Heck, maybe 20% of last years archery sales were disabled xbow folks anyway? Only the DNR has this number and could share if they choose to with a keystroke. The DNR can spin these numbers to fit their agenda multiple ways. Either way, total pre gun harvest will tell the story. The DNR cares about revenue not all the young bucks that will bite the dust to a bolt. The 400k gun only hunters would have to wake up and start to whine but frankly they aren't invested enough in the sport to care imo.

I disagree. 1) The DNR would love to sell 2 million buck only bow/xbow tags and could care less how many bucks are taken pregun.2) Xbows have a seat at the table and any reduction in pre gun harvest days will be now shared equally.Buck tag draw someday? Reduced hunt days?

Are there still deer to kill in Michigan?

Or, are the void of the landscape like some would leave you to believe -

Come on guys!

Plenty of States have crossbows and they are doing fine.

Let's see what happens in Wisconsin - we have no other choice but to do just that.

This pissing and moaning besides getting old, serves no purpose. It's here and it will start soon.

Then we can bitch or say - hmmm, not so bad!

When it comes to the license numbers, some adjustments need to be made for Patron licenses which include both vertical and xbows.

BT I bet that was tough for you to say! :)

I for one will not be buying a license or bowhunting this year as my little tantrum and whining session. It is my little protest against its passing. Will it make a difference? Hell no- not to anyone but me.

New York also had it added this year but I believe during the muzzle loader season where it belongs.

P.S.: Ya that did hurt - wise guy Gietz!

You all down south are complaining about to many deer shoot does if you need the meat or the kill.

By having one buck tag you would spread out the hunters in all seasons and make for a better quality hunt/season.

If any of you hunted the Fairchild/Neillsville area back in the 70's, you will remember what the bucks were like down there at that time. The 1-1/2 year old bucks were doing all the breeding and the genetics were all screwed up. I remember a few friends taking 10 point bucks, perfectly shaped but only 6 inch spreads. Nothing at that time down there was decent. The only thing that helped that area was all the clear cutting they did and made the hunting more difficult for people to shoot everything they saw with a rifle. Now we are giving a lesser rifle basically to people and letting them have more time in the woods to overharvest/overwound these deer again.

There is ZERO scientific data to support only mature bucks pass on superior bone growth genes. Besides Mama is 1/2 the equation. The 70's were brown and down mentality. pretty hard for a 1.5yo buck to grow bone. We have 1.5yo's 10 point 6-8 inch spreads every year. I watch mature bucks square off on each other all the time while a young buck is off to the side and actually breeds the hot doe. Genetics(bone growth) tend to go downhill when young bucks get dumped in mass, funny how that works. If an extra 50,000 bucks get dumped to bolts then the age structure and yes bone growth will suffer which has nothing to do with genetics. Thats like saying a young 18 yo couple's baby has less of a chance of being strong, bright, good looking vs. the same 35 yo couple.

live2hunt, some of us don't care about the size of the antlers.

Arrow1, it would not make it a better hunt got me as I would not be able to hunt as much as with a two buck limit. Maybe a one buck between all the seasons but not that you can only hunt one season. It's begining to sound selfish again!

When it comes down to the end of the season, I don't either, because I need the meat. But, knowing those big boys are around sure makes for a better hunt. I love seeing them, and I love to hunt them if I know they are around. But in the end, I will take the meat that comes by. You must like those stunted bluegill lakes also.

I think there will be a lot of wounded deer from "hunters" that will not take the time to learn their weapon.

Rut there are plenty of bowhunters who don't take the time to do the things you mention so please don't make it sound like it will only be crossbow guys doing the wounding. Study shot selection and anatomy??? That will take about 30 seconds to anyone with half a brain - you're grasping!

Are you referring to the current 400,000 hungover opening weekend gun only hunters or the new bolt crowd?

If you don't care about the size of antlers shoot does and pretend its a nub buck when your taking the trophy picture. And let the little go for some that appreciates the buck.

Howatt, "Couple that with the fact that there is no biological reason to go to one buck"... I bet you live south of Hwy 8 ? If you lived up here you would see the biological reason and if and I say "if" the xgun kill is way up and gains momentum with the years you will also see the biological reason. Be proactive not reactive. Just look what has happened up north we wanted changes for years.

And yes tourism will most likely block any good change for the North and south.

Yes;)

Arrow, The reason most of you want one buck is because you think there will then be more bucks to grow older and have bigger antlers, not because you think it's the best thing for the herd. Especially when you're saying you need to declare your weapon before you buy a tag. Managed properly there is no reason the entire state can't handle the 2 buck season like it's been for years.

I appreciate that little buck just as much, and maybe more, than the horn porn crew does over a 150" buck. You make it sound like if it's not a monster then one should be ashamed of shooting it.

10, how many archery and gun kills are out of the cabin or a house? And as long as it's legal shooting time (and they're wearing their back tag, and orange if it's gun season) who cares? It's perfectly legal to shoot them out of a cabin or a house.

If there are some daylight active deer left to hunt after a few weeks..I may buy a archery tag... but until I see xguns have not ruined the areas... I am waiting and keeping my 24 bucks..screw those political idiots...

I can spend more time in states that still allow you to hunt the deer.

Good for you!

So, I do have have to take issue with the "liberal factor" however! Ya see, this is one area we disagree. I would call that the "common sense factor" my friend. And as most folks can clearly see or remember about you, common sense is just not so common.

To clammer on and on and on and piss and moan about something you have absolutely no power in changing anytime soon - well it's pretty much just foolishness. Some folks just like to hear themselves whine! Take my friend Antler Whore. He's ready to throw in the towel and perhaps hunt another State! Looks like no one is taking his 24 dollars this year!

To name call and speak to someone's character when they are not available to defend themselves also speaks to one's level of intellengence, compassion for others, as well as their level of maturity!

Each of which may I add, FIP, you seem to be lacking in! "Dumb Lemming" come on FIP, is there such thing as a smart lemming? Really?

Look forward to chatting in the future - in the meantime....

Good Hunting!

The hunting world is coming to an end crossbows are legal. REALLY?

Are you saying that Target Panic is not real?

myth·i·cal

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adjective: mythical

occurring in or characteristic of myths or folk tales. "one of Denmark's greatest mythical heroes"

synonyms: legendary, mythological, fabled, fabulous, folkloric, fairy-tale, storybook; More fantastical, imaginary, imagined, fictitious, storied

"mythical beasts"

•idealized, especially with reference to the past. "a mythical age of contentment and social order"

•fictitious. "a mythical customer whose name appears in brochures"

synonyms: imaginary, fictitious, make-believe, fantasy, invented, made-up, nonexistent; informalpretend "her mythical child"

xxxxx xxxxxxx, 44, xxxxx Hwy. B, Hayward, forfeited $387.25 for hunting deer after hours in the town of Round Lake on Nov. 12, 2013. He also forfeited $303.30 for hunting deer with a crossbow on the same date, and forfeited $243 for failure to register a deer in the unit of kill. A citation for illegal shining of deer, elk or bear was dismissed on the prosecutor’s motion. His crossbow that was seized by wardens was surrendered, and his DNR privileges including hunting are revoked for three years.

Will there be more hunters in the north woods..possibly - doesn't mean I can't still hunt.

If 600,000 unhappy gun hunters ever get their act together and become a voice that would certainly be heard, you just may see the sky fall on the archery season we now know.

It might sound that way but there is no danger is saying the truth.

We bowhunters are now headed to become a declining minority of hunters in short order. With my Osage selfbow, I am good with that. You compound enablers should get over it.

I am a gun guy, I collect guns, I shoot them and over all I just enjoy them. But I also am a bow guy. I'm not into bows as much as I used to be, now they are just for hunting. I used to shoot way to many tournaments that I became bored with it and eventually gave them up. I did pretty good when I shot competatively so I do know a thing or two about shooting a bow.

Pasq, I've yet to see a recurve shooter that could consistantly hit the 10 ring!

You should all make sure to get out this year because the crossbow guys will shoot every deer in the state and just seeing one after this year will be as rare as seeing a cougar in the state! The entire state will be like the northern part is now where there aren't enough deer. And like an Obama supporter blaming GWB you guys will be saying that the reason there are no deer up north next year will be because of the crossbow guys.

LoL.... We all know who to thank for the invassion.... and it isn't the DNR

The bow season may get shortned at least in some areas, I do not know.......

I know guys who plan on using them for the late season,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

who knows, the world is changing, I am just not changing with it..............

On the ten ring topic, you are not familiar with traditional archery it seems. There are guys that shoot aspirins although not common. I have shot with many an individual ten ringing it at Wisconsin traditional archery shoots. There is a guy named Donavan many trad shooters are familiar with and his wife Penelope?? kicked my butt in shooting and nailing rings.

You compare the crossbow with a compound and say they are practically the same. I shot fingers with my Mathews and wondering if you can with a crossbow? When I used to gun hunt I would click the safety off on my 30-30 before shooting. Is there a safety on a crossbow? Just asking.

Good hunting to you Zinger.

I have heard all the excuses when it comes to shooting and yes I know target panic is real but it's also real easy to fix if you have the mental capacity to fix it. I would bet if I bet just about anyone on this site $10 to hit the 5 rings on a spot target I would lose $10. So if you can do it when you are really trying just do it 59 more times and you've shot a 300. I know it's not always that easy but if you approach it that way it's a lot easier than thinking you're going to miss the 5 every shot.

I've yet to see a stick bow shooter who shot a 300 or even close to 300. I've been to many tournaments and the traditional class winner's score wouldn't even be on the first page of the compound shooter and they shoot from closer stakes.

I've seen releases with safetys although I never understood the reason for them.

They're LOUD! Loud enough that I would think they would spook some deer before the arrow gets there.

THey're accurate when shot off of a bench, scary accurate! From a standing or sitting without a bench they're hard to hold steady. I could outshoot myself with a compound bow over a crossbow quite easilly. At 40yds I had a hard time keeping the crossbow in 10" off hand.

They are a 1 shot deal, there is no re-loading one with a deer anywhere around. I know people say bows are also but I've got 2nd shots on several deer and shot more than one deer in a short period of time before also, this would not be possible with a crossbow.

The scopes that come with them are garbage! Replace them with a quality scope or a quality red dot sight.

Arrow drop is a lot more than I thought it would be. I didn't have a chance to really play enough but it seemed like there was more drop from 30 to 40 with the crossbow than with my compound, both shooting about the same speed +/- 10 fps.

I didn't get a chance to shoot at 70 or 100yds but I would guess accuracy would be very good but drop would be huge. If you're off a yard or two it might be enough to wound or miss the deer entirely.

Overall I do see some advantages to the crossbow, but I see just as many advantages with a compound bow.

Did I mention that they're LOUD?

There are states in this union that have crossbow hunting and still have deer on the landscape.

The "gloom and doomers" seem to think hunting as we once knew it will never be the same. And it may very well be. We dont know.

They are here...let's see what happens. Much "hub-bub" over something that hasn't even happened yet.

Kinda reminds me of the year 2000 and the big "crash" that was going to happen to everything from computers to marital aids!

I agree, however it is an apathetic attitude. Much easier to be proactive rather than reactive. At this point we have no alternative but to wait and see.

Hindsight is a wonderful perspective but as we all know, there was much concern over the "2000 crash" that had many people concerned. If we could do everything in life with hindsight then life would be easy. Unfortunately, that is not possible.

Archery season in WI is over... it is now a xbow season that you can still use your Bow in if you like...

But any kill in that season is now measured as a xbow kill regardless of if you killed it with your Compound or a recurve...

Sure... The deer seasons will still be there... and you now will have even more deer hoarding on private lands to protect even more deer from this...

But look at so.e areas of the whitetail range... many areas in WI already have a hard time producing an antlered deer over the age of 3 1/2 years old... With the additional buck kills from xbows... that age will be reduced even smaller deer and in many WI areas bucks at all..

I don't have to wait and see.... More bucks will now die each year....that diminishes the accomplishment. ..and makes already crappy deer hunting even worse in a lot of the state...

Make sure you thank your hunting orgs. And the NRA... they did this

I really don't foresee a flurry of new young guns out in the woods with crossbows, because if these newbs had any prior interst to hunting and being away from their gaming console long enough, they'd already be outdoorsmen and have a bow already. Or they'll go out in the woods a few time and realize deer aren't running by like on Big Buck Hunter and get bored in a hurry.

Knife: What is most worrisome is that just the opposite maybe true. The numbers may show that it is younger guys buying crossbows, and I believe the extreme marketing reflects that. Just open a hunting rag or turn on the TV and you will find advertising directed at the younger, "X" extreme, thrill seeking generation. It is not about outdoor skills, it's about instant gratification. The I have to shoot something, anything crowed for the thrill of the kill. The integrity of hunting in general took a major hit and the only thing that matters is the dollar. "Wisconsin is open for business"!

What was it, 57% of Wisconsin and probably 98% of hunters voted to make their bed the way it has been made and now they have to sleep in it. Be careful of what you wish for.

10orbetter, sad to say but it's that way with a lot of hunting stuff nowadays. Did you go to Deer Fest? All kinds of people trying to make hunting the next "extreme" sport. Watch TV shows and it looks like anyone should be able to shoot a deer at 1000yds with their new 300 WizBang!

I played with the crossbow again tonight and was not as impressed as I first was. Yes it's accurate off a bench but the arrow drop is way more than with a compound bow. I bet on could shoot an impressive group at 100yds with one but how do you set the sight for 100yds? Do you actually turn dials like the long range gun guys? Because that's the only way I see being able to make the long shots people on here think are so easy.

When that occurred, were rifles allowed into a new time frame, like the rut? Apples to oranges, it is not a fair comparison.

Xbows south of hwy 29,which is almost all private will have minimal impact. Sadly, public lands will bear the pain of the new bolt crowd. We have 1 5 year xbow hunter and 1 30 year xbow hunter, they have 1 buck tag which they always fill. Access and private land managers will insure xbows have little impact imo.

Bow clubs ... Grab your ankles.... your days are now numbered as well...

WBH done, P&Y done, local bow clubs done. All done unless you reform rules to include nonbowhunters, or simply downsize. P&Y figured that out long ago when they caved to compounds, then repeatedly to advancements in compounds, all to keep membership growing.

Real bowhunting is on the decline in this country folks, may as well admit it and adjust to lower bowhunter numbers,...... and declining.

Because it's almost all private land. The owner controls access and dictates the use. I don't see a gun only type property suddenly becoming bolt city all fall. The buck harvest will show the effect pre gun and during gun. The desire just isn't their for most. If it was, anyone could find a Dr. to write a disabled prescription for an xbow permit in the past and most didn't bother. The majority of "deer hunters" attention span is centered around a bar stool 3 gun days/year.

I have heard and seen the x-bow popularity growing as the season grows near, and with the amount of public land in this cty there will be no restrictions until the public land tags become "real".

The most talk I hear is from the 30-40 year olds. Seems easier the better around here, New toy, longer perceived range, at the ready.

If the talk becomes reality I expect to see a few more wasted deer - only time will tell. I would report any increase deer mortality found this year to the dnr in the hopes that they can become part of the X-bow impact study.

Maybe 5% of landowners practice true QDM vs. TDM or some skewed variation of. How many of those had prior disabled xbow permits? Again the buck harvest data pregun(vertical and bolt) vs. last years data will tell the story. My guess is the numbers will not be significantly different.Virtually all my neighbors already bowhunt and fill their buck tag every year. Maybe they fill earlier with a bolt? Great, less disturbance for the rut.98% of the county is private.Baiting is banned in my county this year while xbows are in. I will gladly make that trade. The harvest data will tell the story.

I also bowhunt in southern Michigan on private land. Every adjacent landowner practices QDM of some type. All have gone from compounds to 100% crossbows over a 4 year period.

Better check that gear selector... not sure if you have it R or D...LOL...

Most of my area is QDM... and also private... that is where you lost me on the south of 29 thing....All the area that is private is not owned by Bowhunters... A greater percentage is owned by Gun only hunters who never set foot in their woods other than to bait ..food plot... or fix their gun stands prior to gun season...Are you telling us that none of these types are going to jump at their new legislated opportunity to kill a buck ahead of the gun season with a 500.00 xbow??? Your Waupaca deer Utopia ... will be wiped out just like any place else.. ... Unless all those gun only guys would like to just wait until gun season and not hunt the rut ...LOL... that's funny right there .. I don't care if your on foot of horseback...LOL. ..

I just don't see what will make xbows have so much more of an impact on WI as compared to all those other states. What am I missing that makes WI so unique in this regard?

I would never claim Waupaca, which is 97% private lands are remotely practicing true QDM. Any 2.5yo, 105 inch buck is getting dumped. Within 4 miles of me a 228,197,and 193 have been taken by hardcore hunters who all practice TDM.Huge difference from QDM. Waupaca/Shawano are successful in spite of the lack of true QDM properties. Buffalo county has been QDM country for 25 years, they blow the book away vs. any other county and second place isn't close.

" Your Waupaca deer Utopia ... will be wiped out just like any place else."

Your chicken little, sky is falling take on xbows is really overblown imo. So the gun only pp owners are going to jump on the xbow to beat himself out on the rut bucks ahead of his gun season? I share a wire with 27 adjacent property owners and our hunting won't suffer one bit.If anything the added xbow pressure will push more deer into my place. PP owners evolve and camp rules usually trump the state regs. Mature bucks only, 1 buck/hunter/year are becoming the norm. 2013 buck harvest....bow 40,000, gun 96,000...ML 2,000....Why haven't more guys bought the $500 inline rifle, i mean ML and hunt a no pressure ML season? I doubt the bow/xbow combined buck harvest jumps 20% or 8,000 bucks.Heck, 1/2 the state has a baiting ban now.So newb bolt guy is walking out in the woods in 10 days for an easy kill? Goodluck with that.

I look at my area of the state. There is some public land that is over hunted to begin with. It might see a couple more people with crossbows now but that's not a big deal. Most of the land is private and very restricted as to who can hunt it. If the land owner doesn't already allow bow hunters he's not going to allow crossbow hunters so really the only additional hunters will be the landowners who are gun hunters and will now pick up a crossbow, if that's 100 in my county I would be surprised. So what we're really whining about is 100 new crossbow hunters hunting THEIR LAND. Get over it people this isn't going to affect one thing in regards to your hunting.

Selfbow, cedars and Hawken for me for over 45 years. I do not need the government to mandate limitations, my choice.

I mean if you really believe that... good for you ..but i do not... and in many areas.. With already low deer and buck only zones... to think all these guys buying xbows won't take a buck with them... I am not buying that..

You guys can...but do t expect things to improve...ever again.. as your Bow season....IS OVER!!

Spot on with that analogy WI deer hunting = fishing...

Lmao... finally someone admitted it..

My guess is that the arguments are largely, not really true. More compounders will opt for yet an easier way to a kill, and therefore true bowhunting will decline.

Not sure you meant what you said...

Take any area... how has the DNR managed the heard over the last season to "Quickly" recover the over harvesting from the past 5 years?? The DNR could control what is killed in these poor numbers areas .. but they dont... and adding another weapon certainly will make matters far worse..

I do like the idea of trapping deer and redistribution them in low deer numbers areas....why couldn't they just trap a few thousand deer from these southern counties and release them in the northern counties..??

They did it with every other species with success... why not deer..build some big traps in these high deer number counties... bait them and tranquilizing them... test them for disease and let them free in the low deer number counties....

Maybe that's what Whitetails unlimited should be working on...The NWTF did this....... Why can't they do it with deer??

Oh.... but folks are hoarding deer in these counties and would be irate in giving up a few deer to be planted up north....but they are fine with xbows..LOL

16,000 antlerless were harvested last year north of hwy 8. This year there will be virtually none. An extra 50,000 xbow guys running around taking young bucks has zero bearing on the overwinter dpsm year 2,3,4.

Trapping and relocating deer? Really? How about the cost? How about capture myopathy? DNR employees deserve combat pay and free therapy I swear.

Hoarding deer? It's called managing private land habitat and hunting it with the right pressure.

By any measure You are in the best whitetail state for quantity and quality on the planet.Yikes!

Whitetails does what with a the proceeds they collect?

QDM..does what with its proceeds it collects ???

Everyone says the insurance companies are behind the deer reduction push...

They also could be a source of funding for trapping and relocation...

Hauled Elk from the west.. why not haul some deer from the south to the north.... plus your checking them for disease as well.... win win..

But what if they trapped a bunch of peoples pet bucks???? Ohhhhhh.. The nerve of the idea.... but they like xbows...too funny..

Everybody Happy Happy. ...Happy

That in a nutshell is the problem. Poor distribution of the deer from super poor management .. I. These decimated ares they should be closed to all deer hunting.. not buck only.. but instead they add a xbow for the rifle hunters so they can now take 2 bucks each...

Helllloooooooo. .???

They are whining about the deer population up north so lets appease them by stopping doe tags, sell bonus buck down south and roll out the crossbow! Hummm conspiracy theory...

Trap them and plant them in Sept each fall... they simply add what is planted to herd goals for each of those units and provide doe tags accordingly

I don't see the problem...it's a numbers thing....

This way the southern counties that these private landowners can't seem to manage u deer goals would get some help.. and the over harvested counties in the buck only zone could have some doe tags...as opposed to zero....

Wouldn't cost much to do it at all... I am sure you could get plenty of volunteers from each decimated county in the north to pitch in to help...

Did You see the cost of the 2 year predator study just concluded capturing a few deer? The capture myopathy is 20%.The DNR biologists would be blowing coffee thru their nose if this idea was posed. Beam me up Scotty.

You guys really aren't bow hunters ..are you? That would explain alot.

Don't like the xbows... sorry... We have now lost the bow season to the xbow. Unless your in Waupaca Cty anyway (cough...cough)..thanx to the hunting orgs.for taking the bowseason... I know it has been a life long goal..Mission accomplished

IT'S THE XBOW SEASON NOW.

Congrats

. But you can still use you recurve and compound if you want or have the extra time needed to become proficient with it

AW, please explain your repetitive references to Waupaca? Are you saying anything I have stated about Waupaca is BS? I just don't see where xbows will effect our hunting 1 bit. Heck, 25% of our group have been xbow hunting for a long time with disabled permits. They have 1 buck tag and always fill it. Nothing will change and the sun will rise in the morning. I sight both the $1700 Ten point xbows in every year. Will I spend $3 for the combo stamp? Nope, I prefer a much more proficient weapon.

Or do you mean the archers who are shooting wood arrows out of long bows?

Who are these people that don't want anyone to know they purchased a crossbow, or these people running around proud of themselves for being "true archers" for shooting compounds? Silliest crap I've ever heard. Anyone that shoots a compound bow and runs around slamming people that shoot crossbows with the claim that compounds are difficult yet crossbows are easy is completely delusional. It's over, crossbows are here, deal with it. If you can't get a deer because there are guys out there holding crossbows I doubt the problem is with the guys holding the crossbows.

Sounds like you want to put yourself on a pedestal for shooting a compound bow because it's so hard. If that's what make you tick then go right ahead and stand on it. The rest of us will just be laughing at you!

Good Post!

Have you ever had a deer come in totally not the way you anticipated and not sure when to draw the bow for the shot? You wont with a crossbow.

Can you hold a compound at full draw for endless amount of time? You can with a crossbow.

Your feelings on TP are completely wrong and not worth discussing cause its obvious you dont think it is real. Only weak minded people get it? That comment in itself is... well best not to say.

Have you played with a crossbow? I will admit that I went out and got one the other week to see what they're all about. Accuracy off a bench is amazing but no better than an acomolished compound guy can do. Arrow drop is excesive compared to a compound. Shooting them off hand is much harder than shooting a compound off hand. They're loud. I will probably shoot a deer with it and then hang it up just because I havent' shot anything with a crossbow yet. I did the same with a handgun and a muzzle loader, I just like hunting with different stuff. Given the choice the compound is a much more efficient weapon IMO. All the talk of long distance is BS. Yes they can shoot very accuratly at long range but you better do a lot of shooting to figure out how to hit anything with one at 80 or 100 yds as the drop will be huge.

All these things sound like things you can get away with if you're shooting a bow inside of a blind. Are you also trying to get rid of bowhunters in blinds? Do you think the use of blinds will decimate the deer herd?

TP is real, I just choose not to get it. I come from a background of precision rifle and handgun shooting and I've never heard TP mentioned in any of those sports. Funny how it only affects archers. I don't know why you want to make things more difficult than they need to be. Just refuse to allow yourself to get TP.

Capt, why is that? Because I don't allow something as trivial as TP affect my shooting? Or is it because I don't require 9 months of "practice" to shoot a bow proficiently? I refuse to make thing such as shooting anymore difficult than they need to be which is unlike way to many archers I see who try to make it as complicated as possible. It seems archers are always trying to re-invent the wheel when it comes to shooting. All the things they think they're inventing have been brought up and solved by rifle and pistol shooters decades ago yet they think they're different because they're shooting a bow and not a rifle.

I'm guessing that you guys had TP and instead of just ignoring it and shooting like you're supposed to you let it affect your shooting and you did all kinds of goofy things to try to correct it.

I stand by comment as posted above. You apparently have not had it and I am glad you don't. However, it is not because you choose not to get it, you just never did. That is where your ignorance stems from on the subject.

My comment has nothing to do with practicing 1 day, one month or nine months. Most people shoot because they enjoy it, not because they feel they need some certain, predetermined amount of practice.

I guess I do have to ask. If you can shoot 57 X's, why can't you shoot 60? Maybe you do not practice enough? Or, maybe you have just the slightest bit of TP that you can't overcome it to get 60?

What I find most amuzing, is the arguments that come from the guys against crossbows and pro vertical bows seems to hold very little water? I guess the guys who aren't all worked up about the crossbow have legitimately used good logical thinking...pro or against?

Either way, the guys not all worked up over it are still guys choosing to shoot their modern vertical bow. They just don't get all bent because someone chooses the next advancement in archery. I can say with no doubt, the modern compound bow has more advantages than a crossbow.

Lee on "the crush" just shot a desert sheep at over 130 yards with a compound. Do I agree with the shot (especially after a missvat an even closer range)? No! But the same shot would not be any easier or less stupid with a crossbow.

When you argue about advantages, at least use simple logic. Some of you guys look quite silly in all your contempt.

Just sayin'

Just sayin'

Idiots on both sides. Vertical archers are not any more of a hunter than any other hunter. If a guy can shoot a ram at 130 yards with a compoud, I think we can stop with the "what weapon is easier" talk is all. I don't care if you shoot a bow or a crossbow, neither side is devoid of dipshits!

GO BADGERS..

Did you see the video of the new world record archery shot? Over 300 yards in 30 mph winds. Idiots are idiots, you cannot fix stupid no matter the weapon they prefer. The original owner of the bow said it was supposed to happen when his arrow fell of it's rest, when he let it down?

lol cracked me up, thanks for that.

Hey Hunter R...Ummm he was shooting a compound but your mistake is ok. Enjoy your crossbow this season.

I played with my crossbow again today and I get less and less impressed with it everytime I play with it. For my hunting I can't find one reason I would prefer it over a compound bow. I shoot my compound better, it's flatter shooting, much more quite and much easier to move around and handle. Personally I think a crossbow is a handicap compared to a crossbow.

AW, So this is the first time that people have violated by placing corn before the season or where it's not allowed? All these people violating are doing so because of the crossbow being legal? I guess my mind must be making things up because I seem to remember these things happening before crossbows were legal.

A deer is shot with an arrow. It has no idea, what type of weapon, it was launched from, and does not care........

However, it will all come down to, how effective is it, and how has the allowance of the xbow, going to effect the harvest. Will it be so effective, that it will cause the seasons to be less and shortened.....

We will not have that answer, until this 2 year trial period is over.............

My personal opinion does not mean squat at this time, so I will just have to wait.......

I do fear, it could shorten my season, and no way, are they ever going to have their own season, once they are in, there in, so that is why I think they will adjust the seasons, if they find the kill rates too high.......

Just curious.... Antler and Zinger and Pasq, and Arrow 1 What counties do you guys hunt?

Yep my slip-up, I think most recognized the mistake yet still knew what I meant.

Like the following mistake;

"Really Ziger"

Who is "Ziger"? See, another mistake, but most knew what you meant.

Kenosha- public

Langlade - public/private

Marathon - public

Bayfield - public

Dutchess - private

Greene - public

When you argue a point logically (I repeat logically) you must weigh the advantages versus disadvantages.

So let me give some perspective on this.

The crossbow:

Cocked and ready to shoot. Although the likelihood of getting a second shot off is almost nil....especially for the handicapped or elderly, but even a strong healthy person will most likely watch the animal walk if missed, or if a second opportunity arises. Where the vertical bow still allows for a second shot. I've personally shot a second arrow on five separate occasions in my 35 years of bow hunting. With trigger releases and let off at 80%, you are holding back almost nothing when the the bow is drawn back, and in the valley.

Can be equipped with a magnified scope, and is admittedly damn accurate. It also has tremendous KE loss beyond forty yards, and bolt drop becomes terrible at long ranges, where the vertical bow can be deadly beyond 100 yards, and although I believe it to be silly, there are archers who shoot at these distances due to the quarry they shoot (ie. mule deer out west). With a modern pin, peep and kisser, the modern bow allows repeatability that rivals the crossbow. I'm not insisting that the crossbow is not able to shoot these distances, but the person will certainly need to hold very high to account for arrow drop.

The crossbow is heavy and bulky, and yes, it can be rested like a gun. When the quarry moves, you must move this bulky piece of equipment, making it perhaps more difficult to move, especially in a tree when a deer moves to one side versus the other where you anticipated your shot to be. Admit it, the vertical bow is much easier at this point due to its mobility.

Sound/noise, although I don't think matters at the the crossbow's speed is quite loud. I wouldn't call it a disadvantage, nor an advantage, simply because modern vertical bows shoot plenty fast where excuses like the deer "ducking your string" should be nonexistent.

I'm not pro nor against the crossbow. The weapon is not for me. It is here. It is something we will see in the woods (especially public land hunters). rutnut, I believe Zinger talks about selfishness like I see it. There is no real reason for the hate other than you will perhaps have more deer killed (maybe not), you will share the land with perhaps another hunter. No one is denying that the the crossbow is cocked and is deadly accurate. We are just saying we are still going to hunt with our modern vertical bows, and are willing to share the resource. I honestly feel like it wouldn't matter if it was another archer or squirrel hunter in the woods, it comes down to another guy who wants to infringe on our privacy. I might be wrong, but I've yet to see a legitimate argument other than "we just don't think they are a bow, and we hate them" Yea, we get it!

I will repeat, I am still using my bow....never plan on ever using a crossbow, but I don't look at those that choose to as vermin. I watched a kid at Gander the other day. He was 14, saved his money, and bought a crossbow. You should have seen the look on his face. So excited to hunt. I asked him if he bow hunted before? He said he nor his dad did not hunt in the past. They bought a ground blind and a cross bow, and are going to hunt his grandfather's farm this year. By golly, they will be inexperienced I'm sure, but since the crossbow is so damn easy, they will certainly get it sighted in. They will both now become fellow hunter. They will both share moments that perhaps might last a lifetime. PRICKS chose a crossbow. To hell with them! NOT! I said good luck to both of them, and I would hope some of you haters would do the same?

Well there you go! Good on them and thank goodness for the new weapon. I can only hope there are 500,000 more stand up Dads with youth gonna now become new fellow hunters.

All do respect Pete but the law was fine just how it was. Yes they are here to stay but its a shame on how that came to be. I am not against the crossbow either Pete, just its use in the archery season unless of age or handicapped.

I'm not against xguns totally.But because they are a high powered shoulder fired weapon with a gun style scope they should be limited to a 1 or 2 week season. We had a good law for them. If they were on equal ground to a vertical bow then the P&Y club would be recognizing them but they are not. The xgun is a great weapon and not archery equipment..

If the crossbow doesn't have the giant impact that you predict, can you please not stoop to the DNR's level and blame the low success rate on weather or weird rut or winter kill? ;-)

Let us see what impact it truly has, see what they do to fix/repair/alter the seasons before we jump to the worst conclusions.

That was the first time I've seen or heard of a switch or purchase, and in my opinion that only had a good ending....unless you are the neighbor of the kid's grandpa lol.

They have made changes all along because of the advancements in the modern bow. They will certainly make more.

arrow, while I am not advocating that P&Y include xbow kills, never say never. Remember that when compounds came out, P&Y originally did not include them. Then they excluded ones with 50% letoff or more and then changed that to 85% I believe. xbows being included will be a tough nut to crack for the xbow guys but the compound guys started there too.

What is a joke is that anyone would consider license sales complete for a season that lasts about three months and which has not even begun yet.

And again I would ask as devil's advocate, how detrimental have they been to people's hunting experiences and the herds in MI, IN, and OH (40 years of xbows this year)? I'm not using one nor do I plan to use one but I just don't think hunting ends on Sat am as we have known it.

CM,It's a snapshot 1 week prior to the opener. xbow license sales are 7.8% of last years archery sales? Then factor out the disabled permits from last year who now simply buy an xbow license and the number is 4%. Do you think most guys who dropped $500-$1700 on a shiny new xbow are waiting till the day before he hunts to part with the $27 tag fee?

Did Ohio ever let hunters take more than one buck? Are you stating xbows is what makes Ohio a one buck state? I think you should read up a little on the hunting in Ohio. I attached a neat little read on it. They started from next to nothing and have a very prosperous herd, even with xbows. Their one buck rule has nothing to do with xbows.

1 buck would be that step.

It is why other states went to it. It will come here eventually as we make it easier and easier to kill.

If you want all these extra seasons and weapons..

You will see a management change on bucks

Never say never.

Being German myself, I can speak from experience....but I sought treatment and married another kraut.....made me look in the mirror lol and I didn't like what I saw. 21 years later I still avoid her! ;-)

So because a person is using a weapon that MAY have 10yds further range than a compound bow they will not need to learn the skills of hunting, learn the animal or learn that it takes hard work to succeed? Then there must not be a gun hunter who can even identify a deer! As for practice not all people need to practice for months to hit a deer, should we make a minimum number of arrows shot before one can get a bow tag?

And what advancements? Making legal a weapon that is big and ackward and has the possibility of a couple yards further distance? You do realize that the advancement from recurve to compound has had a HUGE affect on bowhunting? A lot more than the crossbow will ever have.

Actually proficiency testing would be a great thing.

Nothing, so I will explain where I was going with it. I agree that the compound was a big advancement in archery. It helped us recover a lot of animals because we were more able to make that exact hit to humanely dispatch the animal. But, we just could not pick the thing up and go hunt, we had to practice because there was still the need to draw, anchor, sight and release in form to make the shot. It's not like a gun. Baiting, adding crossbows to the archery season is just adding more ways to make it easy to kill the animal without learning how to hunt. Same with the ML season, it was designed for the flintlock/percussion cap enthusiast's to hunt without competition from the rifle hunters. It was limited and they had there limitations and problems. But, they were only given a week. Now, with the advancements to make it easier, we have the in lines. So now, it is basically a single shot modern rifle season.

I do believe they should have people chose either the gun or the x-gun for there tags and shorten the season for them. They do not deserve to have the same length of a season as the archery season for everyone.

"They do not deserve to have the same length of a season as the archery season for everyone."

There ya go - let's keep it all for ourelves!

A proficiency test would be a TERRIBLE thing. Who will come up with the standards? Where will the test be taken? I don't want the government in my life anymore than it is already and I certainly don't want them telling me how to shoot. We already have to go through their indoctrimation of hunter safety to get a tag. They made trapper education required to get a trapping tag and now they want to make you go to a special class if you want to trap a wolf!

Yup. Archers were only allowed to hunt during the rut because they were using a much less efficient weapon than a firearm. A crossbow is more efficient and easier to use than a hand held, hand drawn bow, compound, recurve or longbow. Allowing a more efficient, scoped, easier to use weapon into the archery season provides no positive ramifications for archers but it does open the door to much potential downside.

I have no problem in fighting for what I want and what I enjoy. That makes me no different than those who lobbied to get crossbows included into the archery season.

Now down to buisness at hand!

Apparently the Great State of Minnesota does not share the same "insight" as to weapons. Their gun deer season is during the rut every year! I belive they start on or about November 2nd yearly. How do those archers in that State deal with it? How is that?

I visit the MN site often and have never seen a thread complaining about shotguns being used during the rut! Why is that?

Yet, here in WI, crossbows have caused many to come literally unglued and boaderline mental health candidates! And why is that? Selfish intent?

Some folks will enjoy the crossbow season. Does that mean anything to anyone. Anyone?

Perhaps someone's sister or brother or Grandfather may enjoy an opportunity to get into the woods and try for a deer? Is that wrong?

Do states that allow crossbows have any deer on the landscape? Or, has deer hunting in those States been closed? Is Wisconsin a "special" State?

Or...(here's a thought) ...Is it all about me, me, me?

Because that is what I am hearing over and over and over again!

I have never shot a crossbow or hunted with one.

But I am really just about to the point of "Gee sorry - sucks to be you!" And I dont mean that at all!

It is for 8 millionth time - a wait and see!

OMG people!!!

CaptMike +1 arrow1 +1 Including the Thank You to BT for your service!!!

The genetics of a 0.5yo buck are the same as when he hits 3.5yo. I do agree that I would not want WI to model after anything MN does.

I do agree with BT that people are really over-reacting. I hope everyone wears protective armor this weekend because from the sounds of it, you'll be run over by xbow guys on the way to your stand and there will be 100+ yard bolts flying all over. I expect to read about lots of injuries come Monday.

BT, either you conveniently forget things to prove your points, or you don't really visit the MN forum. They complain a lot about the idiotic timing of the gun season. I have family and friends that hunt and own land in MN. The poor timing of the gun season is their biggest complaint.

I call BS on that the genetics of the .5 yo buck are the same as the mature buck. If they all have the same parents then sure. But with guns in the rut, the strong do not get to breed. They are hiding. So you would be happy if a mature 6pt did all the breeding? Bucks are not all the same. Nature is setup so the strongest/smartest do most of the breeding. With firearms season in the peak of the rut, most likely the most nearby buck breeds the doe. His dad might be some mature rag horn or the son of same. You want an all out chase for every doe bred so she finds the cream of the crop to breed her. Young bucks can have great genetics or they can have horrible genetics. More apt to be the later when there mom had to breed in the midst of the rut.

Rutnut +1

Rut - been here many years and have yet to see anything close to that on the Minnesota thread! Perhaps I missed it - but with the volume of the threads on that site...I doubt it! Oh I'm sure there are quite a few folks not happy with that - it is what it is!

Arrow1 - Exactly!! Great point!

They have one weapon/one buck - you choose and you choose against firearms!

Some folks seem to forget to recognize how good we really have it. Look around - and you dont have to look to far to see that we really have what many States would chop off their left arm with a dull axe to have!

And yet - the "me,me,me" mentality persists with some people!

It's time to accept the fact crossbows are here - let's see what happens and go from there!

CaptMike, Have you ever really used a crossbow? Because if you did you wouldn't be saying all the BS you're spewing. More efficient? It takes 200lbs of draw weight to do what 70lb in a compound will do, that not very efficient in my book. Easier to use? At certain times yes but at other times the bow is easier to use. Scoped? Really you're going to complain about a scope? We're talking under 50yds here do you really think a scope makes that much of a difference? Most people don't even keep both eyes open when using a scope and would be better off with a good set of pins of a red dot (which can and is used by people on compound bows also) sight.

You're grasping at straws in an attempt to try to keep other hunters from shooting "your" deer.

Please tell me how my genetics (passed to me by my mother and father) differ from when I am 1 year old or 50 years old? They are not different.

A buck passes on his same genetics whether he breeds at 1.5 or 5.5. His rack size at the time does not matter. His rack size is based on his genetics, age, and environment. A deer with poor rack genetics is not going to be a P&Y deer and it would not matter what age he bred at as that can't affect his genetics. The doe also plays a big role in the genetics.

APR's works against superior genes as many great 1.5,2.5 yo 8 points get dumped due to a 4pt. apr rule.

A 16yo couple will have the same genetic potential baby as there 10th kid at 34years old.

Heck,, in many areas you would be pushing it to hear of a 130" deer in these areas before the Xbow season! Now add that buck kill in all these buck only counties. There are a ton of hunters that would not go across the street to hunt forks and spikes ... let alone drive from other states. When you can go many other places for better deer.

Very few if any mature deer in most of the areas will translate into lower hunter interest and much less jing for the northern and central WI businesses that rely on hunter dollars.

There is a difference between passionate and not getting your way! Posting on an Internet forum over and over and over defiles passionate. It gives weight to "Im not getting my way - and I dont like that" ideology!

Where were all these "passionate" people before the crossbow issue was passed?

My land, my deer, my season, my rights!

In opposition there are many folks that take the high road and are truly compassionate of the bowhunting sport and our Outdoor Heritage.

But what many people are missing here is - THE CROSSBOW IS HERE! No amount of bitchin', moaning, whining, complaining is going to change that now.

Everything anyone posts at this point is pure conjecture - nobody can say what is going to happen - no one knows for sure!

Whether your Pro or Con - it is a wait and see!

Here's the DNR response from the live chat this week: Note he put "trial" in quotes.lol

"Scott Loomans: You are right, this is technically considered to be a "trial" season and, after this two year period, there could be crossbow season regulation changes. I am not predicting that there will be changes, but the department and the public will be evaluating and could propose changes.

I don't think we have any specific problems or situations in mind at all in the department. This is just a feature of the authorizing legislation that I think was included out of an abundance of caution.

You know what really amazes me?

On the thread entitled "Military Honors" here on bowsite, there was only ten members that posted. That's right....TEN people found the 9 seconds necessary to post on that thread.

Last count there was 260 posts on this mindless bantering of name calling, belittling and "I know better attitudes" along with speculation and barstool predictions.

Does that say something about us rjn? Just wondering?

I too contacted the WDNR regarding this so called "trial period" because I had heard nothing about it.

Through my search I discovered there is a Wisconsin Crossbow Federation." I found that interesting as well and as an FYI - I did buy into all their "opinions" either! But at least they have their own website!

I think that is GREAT - Let's look at it in two years! Let's jumble the numbers look at the good, bad and the ugly.

In the meantime, It's at it's very best all speculation sprinkled with conjecture and crystal ball predictions!

God Bless the USA and our both serving and fallen hero's!

We should start a new thread about Genetics. I may be new to bowhunting, but not new to Genetics - that's what I do.

It's a 50/50 random combination of genetics every time an organism breeds. Development in-utero and after birth, environmental factors (food, water, climate) can modulate and effect the expression of those genes. It doesn't matter if it's a 1 yr buck breeding or a 5 yr old buck - the DNA passed doesn't change.

What we are learning however is the study of epigenetics tells us that the modulation of genetic information (i.e. what is expressed and not expressed) can be seen throughout generations). Still don't know a lot about the details of this - that's the hot sub discipline in Genetics. More to follow in years to come.

But at the end of the day, think of it simply as breeding a good hunting dog. You breed the traits you think are most beneficial, and through a detailed pedigree selection process generation after generation - you see a dog that carries the traits you want. If you want bucks with big racks - you should cull the bucks with small racks or antler traits you don't like sooner than later, so the bucks that have the traits you like can have an increased chance of breeding as many doe as possible. The big question, does rack size correlate to a healthy, sustainable deer population?

And if you're culling young bucks coming off a rough year, maybe their rack size isn't representative of their DNA that may be very favorable - but it's not mature enough or healthy enough to show you by producing a big rack at that point in time...?

It would be like taking a teenage Aaron Rogers and putting him in a home that didn't have proper nutrition and no access to football... If you scouted him two years later, you might think - "He's never gonna amount to anything...". Put him in a home with everything he needs and access to all the football resources and scout him 2 years later - "WOW, he's a rock star!"... Over simplified of course - but pretty accurate overall.

Do you understand that the entire north pretty much is buck only??? What else are all these newbies going to shoot??

You take more and more bucks out of already decimated herd.. you will never see a 130" deer.. and that is prolly just a 3 1/2 year old..

If anyone thinks guys don't care about decent sized bucks.. they are blowing smoke..everyone would be glad to have some running around ..

The range of a crossbow is highly over rated. After playing with mine I'm limiting my shots to 40yds which is the same as I do for my compound - except I can shoot a better group with my compound!

No scope gathers light, some allow the transmition of light better than others but none actually gather light unless your'e talking about night vision. Have you looked through the scopes that come on crossbows? They suck! Looking though one of those scopes is a handicap compared to a good set of fiber optic pins on a compound. And if you really think a scope is that great you know there are mounts that you can get to put one on your bow right?

Want to toot the xbow horn.. ? Start your own xbow site and you won't have to defend your BS

Have at it... but don't expect any respect from this archer. Its not gonna happen.

I shot one a few times that a buddies dad had like 15 hears ago..and was touch grouping at 50 with 3 bolts..

Now 15 years later these things are unbelievably effective much farther than they were then..

Now that it is here... your never getting rid of them either... it will be just like the bait debate.. as long as it's legal mumbo jumbo..

It's all BS.. they stole the archery season from us.

AW trust me I'm not crying because I don't have your respect! In fact with how dumb you've been sounding lately I consider it an honor to not have your respect!

If you're so against them then why is everyone so OK with them for the older people and the handicapped? If you're going to be against anyone who doesn't use the same equipment that you do then why the hypocricy?

KE deadly at 100yds? Sure they do and so does your compound, heck Fred Bear and the other old timers regulailly shot at animals at 100yds. Lucky shot at 60yds? Like that never happens with compound guys? Accurate at 100yds? LOL Maybe they can group decent at 100yds, as can a bow out of an experienced shooter but it's not like it's practical to actually shoot an animal at 100yds or even close.

3 bolts touching at 50yds? Good one! Most people can't even shoot that good with a rifle but you can with a crossbow with a POS trigger, probably a POS scope on it?

A lot of guys talking about things they know nothing about. That's why I decided to get a crossbow and try one out this summer and for hunting. I wanted to be able to talk form experience. All you guys who think they're so great and easy don't have a clue. First carrying them is a PITA, holding them in a tree stand is ackward to say the least, there's no good way to hold them easily that I could find. They're loud and the arrow drops more than an arrow out of a compound of the same speed. The only advantage I see is if you're in a box blind and can use a rest. Even then 100yds is a falicy. The drop is so great that even with a scope you're not going to hit anything unless you're sighted in for 100yds and the deer is EXACTLY 100yds away because if it's 98 or 102 you're missing the deer.

I shot a doe last night at 5yds and it would have been just as easy, or maybe even easier, with my compound. I shot a deer to learn about them and I've already sold the crossbow because a compound is a better and more efficient weapon. All the talk about them being a single shot rifle and a long distance weapon are pure BS. The sky isn't falling guys it's not anywhere near as big of deal as you're making it out to be.

Interestingly my buddy wasn't anti crossbow until this ordeal. Now I know all new crossbow hunters will not hunt like this. But this is exactly the type of slob hunters I was worried would be attracted to archery season once the bolt guns were legal.

You love to shade your facts / opinions to make yourself look right. Ha !

How many deer did they bring down with their crossbows?

Crossbows are a new toy for many and I'm sure that most will soon tire of dragging them around the woods on drives. That's gotta be a pain in the butt!

That doesnt surprise me however. It is common place to encounter other people on public land. Some would argue that's it's good to see more people in the woods enjoying the outdoors.

I on the other hand saw no one on State or County land with a crossbow this weekend...... I'm sure I must have mised a few folks.

Arrow was your client sucessfull with his crossbow? Did he pay you? If so, how did it feel taking money from a person that would stoop so low as to hunt with a crossbow?

Interesting!

We have a xbow season here now but we should either have a one or two week season. or a one buck limit. Remember I live in the north. For some,, stop saying its archery equipment and the same as a vertical bow. A xbow is easier and takes less work to be proficient then a vertical bow. The mechanics of using a xbow vs a vertical bow are totally different. Some on here just keep trying to justify their use of the xbow as archery equipment. ITS NOT THE SAME,, ACCEPT THAT OR WHICH TO A VERTICAL BOW !! Don't call yourself an archer the same as me ! Yes I do put proficient vertical bow archers above xbow users.

Why does society have to and keep making life easier for our youth? Why do we keep taking the challenge out of life for them? Archery was made to be a challenge. And yes we have modernized the vertical bow but the mechanics for using them are still the same.

I took my wife out to eat last nite and at the bar there were 4 guys taking about archery hunting last nite and what they saw. I struck up a conversation with them and all four used xbows with scopes on them and two had lites. It was amazing what they said about the lites and scopes after a 12pac. Little did they know my feelings nor did I tell the. To them they were archery hunting. That is SAD !

We had a good xbow law which allowed every and any one to use a xbow within seasons. But some want to hunt the rut and not take the time to be proficient with a vertical bow. So we now have a high powered shoulder shot weapon being used during the whole archery season. Time will tell what the impact will be. For the south maybe not so much. For the north I think it will be greater. We will see.

From Paul Smith at MJS: "Through Sunday, the Department of Natural Resources reported sales of 102,422 archer licenses and 36,460 crossbow licenses through Sunday. The archer total is down 16,609 from the same time last year."

No matter what breeds, you will still have big bucks as much of the breeding will still be by the dominates. Just trying to point out that guns in the middle of the rut is going to have some effect on breeding. Apparently inconceivable in your mind. After reading more of your posts, have you ever been wrong?

So anyone who does deer drives are slob hunters?

36,000 minus the 14,000 disabled xbow hunters from last year= 22,000 new bolt hunters. How many of them were vertical last year?

22000 is 20% .. that's a huge number.. plus all the posers who have not come out of the closet besides... way to many... unless you hunt in the Golden counties of Buffalo and Waupaca..LOL...

I can't help myself... that is pretty funny ..

Zinger, I was part of a group that hosted a bunch of state politicians about three years ago at a shooting event. The goal was to familiarize these folks with all types of weapons. We had them shoot pistols, rifles, shotguns, recurve bows, compound bows and crossbows.

I helped with the shotguns and the bow shooting. Each and every participant that shot the crossbow was able to hit a standard sized deer target at 50 yards, on their first shot, with the crossbow. Those same folks had much trouble hitting the same sixed deer anywhere on the target, at 15 yards with a recurve. Results with the compound were only slightly better.

Believe it or not, you are not the only person to have some experience shooting crossbows. However, you do seem to be the only one who finds them so much more difficult to use, in every aspect, as compared to a hand held and drawn bow.

Four guys this weekend I know had deer they could have shot with zero effort using a crossbow. In each scenario the use of their compounds did not allow them a chance. The best one was one guy had gotten out of his stand at 10:30 walking out he sees a buck coming his way. He knelt down in the brush/grass with the wind working in his favor. By the time he got his arrow quietly out of quiver,knocked and looked down to attach his release to the loop it was by him and too thick for a shot. He said had I been holding a cocked or loaded weapon there would have been loins on the menu.

Way easier Zinger and you know it.

20% more weapons will translate to way more bucks killed off...now more than 1 out of 3 people in the woods will be taking the easy way out.

Put a pile of bait at 40 yrds from your inclosed rifle stand and your a buck killing machine..

44 years of purchasing a WI Archery license has come to close for this guy. It simply is no longer archery.

I am guessing based on the numbers posted.. I am not close to being alone .Apparently thousands of others are choosing to find other things to do. Who can blame them?

Yes there are times that a crossbow will make it easier and there are also plenty of times that they will make it more difficult.

Capt. Mike, I agree that a crossbow is easier for the guy who's never shot a bow before. But give the guy a couple days to play with a bow and the advantage is not nearly as much. Like I said there are times they're more difficult and times they easier.

Whore, as you've said this site is for bowhunters, if you've given up bowhunting please find a different site to visit. Good luck finding one that you haven't been kicked off of yet.

I am not saying it is right or wrong, I am simply pointing out that it is the ease of use of the crossbow that is the big attraction.

Your ignorance and greed blinds you to other people's freedom your xbow has taken.

We should be focusing that energy on the PETA airheads, and the other political bleeding hearts that want to take away our weapons and hunting options.

Just get out in the woods, and enjoy yourself; and as long as other hunters are not endangering you, or breaking laws; then why worry how they hunt.

I have been bowhunting for 45 years with a longbow and cannot figure out why hunters continually exploit the resource with tech advancements. I can only imagine what non hunters think when they watch the videos of hunting technology. I do not like the direction we are moving with Mechanical archery, bowhunting is a rapidly dying concept at this point. No logical person would believe otherwise.

Not today.. I do shoot a 2005 compound but i also enjoy shooting a old recurve I used back in the day. But now in WI bowhunting is no more. All we have left is how it use to be.

Sad.

I'm still going to wait and see what happens with xbows and enjoy my time in the woods. I just happen to have an open mind and have looked at states like MI, OH, and IN and see their hunting is still alive and well with the dreaded xbows. I might turn out wrong, but hey, life is short and I'm going to enjoy every minute I get in the woods. I doubt that I will be affected at all by others using xbows. I spent some time in the woods last weekend and saw no bolts flying past me, nor did I see anyone with an xbow. Heck one day, I myself might need to use one to allow me that extra time in God's wonderful creation. I tend to err on the positive side. It is better to be happy than bitter in life.

If a compound guy lays his weapon down and changes to a Xbow then he is not changing the numbers of 'hunters' but the odds of killing a deer may change therefore impacting the herd. He is changing the odds because he is increasing his effective kill range and therefore getting more opportunities he otherwise would not get or getting deer only because of the Xbow where as he couldn't have with the Compound due to the distance of the shot. This is based on the premise that Xbows can shoot farther.

Does anyone have good data that shows how much hunter numbers went up year over year when Xbows have been included? If they didn't go up but helped slow a precipitous slide in hunter retention then that needs to be considered as well in how much more successful Xbow hunter might be when looking at the numbers. If hunter numbers have continued to fall but we have more Xbow hunter now and deer harvest data remains neutral then Xbow hunters are meeting better odds due to their weapon.

In MI "42%" of "142,500" Xbow hunters met success in the field in 2012. Not sure what the compound and primitive guys had because it is not in the data or broken down that way. Statewide average for all groups combined including all guns is 46%. The 'overall' archery success rate appears to be 39% here in MI according to the math (127,281 archery harvest divided by 325,424 archers)but that number is no doubt being driven up by the Xbow numbers being included and them having a 42% success rate. Without subtracting the Xbow higher success rate driving up the numbers, in 2012 you had a 3% better chance of killing a deer if carrying a Xbow right. If we take the Xbow hunter numbers out of the archery numbers wouldn't the % of archers who met with success be lower than 39% overall? I think Xbows give you around 7% better odds but I have no way to prove it yet because the data does not include a comprehensive breakdown between Xbows and the other archery tackle. Either way though it clearly shows 42% of Xbow hunter met success in 2012 while all archery totals which include the Xbow show only 39%. It is obvious that Xbows impact the deer herd more than some people think.

EDIT: Just spoke to the DNR and went through the Xbow report survey with them and currently the odds are 7% higher with a Xbow. As more Xbows come into archery they think the numbers could creep to 1-3% higher trend than the 7% we see now. They predicted w/o Xbows that archery number success the last 3 years would have been 30%. This shows Xbows have a big impact on the deer herd but I don't think it will kill it or anything but it will for sure show up as very noticeable.

Sorry. That was never my intention for posting today or in the past when I have came here but you are likely correct on all that except he said he lives in WI and he also said that when he was preacher.

As to my post, IMO facts are facts regardless of who post them and at least here in MI the Xbow guys met with success 7% more than the rest of us according to Brian at the MI DNR who is part of tracking this and handles the surveys. That's 15,000 more deer a year killed that otherwise would not be. If it goes up 1-3% more as the DNR just explained they thought it would then it will be 20,000 more deer killed each year and that will be noticeable after 7 to 10 years IMO.

Just wait. It won't take long or have any trouble finding a bill sponsor who is up for election looking to sway some voters.

It took a bit of prying, but finally, when pressed, he admitted he used a crossbow. I don't think he'd have offered that until I questioned him further.

What does it mean? For the most part nothing. It means with him using a crossbow there will be an extra deer or two running around without an errant arrow in it. It also shows he now has the capability to kill a deer, something he was not very successful at in the past.

It is not 'their' fault that the Xgun is legal. I have never much bashed the Xbow hunter but the frustration people show toward the individual or group using them is misplaced. Its those that made it legal you should take issue with instead. The guy using it just wants that weapons advantages.

We use our advantages that we have learned over the years to get close to get a shot. The Xbow hunter has learned the advantages of using an Xbow and goes that route instead. How is that wrong on his part if it is legal.

Those that fought to make it legal ARE the ones using them. People who fought against them certainly are not using them.

Closet bowhunters..funny... but sad as it took the WI archery season away from bowhunters.

Numbers will be skewed to benefit the states interests anyway. They have been for years.

I doubt that is completely accurate. 'SOME' of those hunters using them fought for them but the vast majority only later took advantage of the Xbows status as a legal weapon for hunting.

Here in MI we have 140,000+ Xbow hunters and I can assure you only a tiny, tiny fraction of those using them were involved in the process to get all restriction on the Xbow removed. The rest just took advantage of it.

"The rub comes in when crossbowers want to pretend or assume thay are bowhunters or that what they do is bowhunting"

Well they are hunters all the same regardless of the weapon. I don't know many Xgunners that try to pass off they are vertical bow hunters. If they did it is only because of the crap storm people give them or the perception that they are less than.

A weapon is a weapon regardless of what it is and the weapon doesn't define the man using it. The weapon certainly can help define how successful the hunt goes as the weapons potential to reach goes up.

+1 Hammer

Its none of our business why a hunter chooses the weapon he chooses.

Maybe they also want to use one to be more accurate and ethical when they shoot. Not that because that is not a valid reason right. They only use one so it is easier to kill a deer right. It is 7% easier according to the numbers.

I have never looked but I bet it is at least 7% easier to kill a deer with a compound than a recurve because I used one for 20+ years and know it. Did you choose to shoot a compound because it is easier to kill a deer or was there a little more to it than just that?

I think you know the point that was being made but in case you don't, I'll repeat.

I suspect there are few to no people who fought against crossbows now using them.

"Its none of our business why a hunter chooses the weapon he chooses" I disagree. When they can use a superior weapon in a primitive weapon season, and the results have the potential to affect that season, It is my business to try and protect what I have. Based on the apathy shown here, if I don't, no one else will.

-1 haha.

"Aaaaah you are wrong there !!! I recently watch a 30 yr old buy a xgun and then take 2 shots wit it. His 2nd shot he was shooting quarters at 30yds. It takes different degrees of dedication to become proficient in a sport weather it be with a xgun or basketball or football or golf. You can say what you want but the high powered scope mounted shoulder shot xgun is superior to the vertical bow and takes less dedication to master then the vertical bow. If people want the real challenge of archery they would shoot a vertical bow"

Ahhh you are wrong there. The weapon does not define the man or hunter using it. Some of the best hunters I have even known were gun hunters 'only'. They could do what we can do x2 and even get real close to game x2 when they wanted. The weapon does not define the man or the hunter just because he chooses to use it or because it shoots farther. It says nothing of his character or who he is as a man or hunter or his hunting skills though some would outrageously claim otherwise! If what you think is true then why don't the Xbow guys just wait a few weeks and use a rifle because it is wayyy better than an Xbow. Odds on shot success go way up. Odds of getting a shot period go wayyy up because you don't need to be real close. Xbow have advantages which I have pointed out many times and the odds are 7% better when using one but its not like it is wayyyyyyy better than a compound when push come to shove and the numbers are tallied.

"because they don't want the challenge or work that goes with the vertical bow they choose the xgun"

Well the same can be said for anyone using a compound instead of a primitive weapon. It is all a matter of perspective. Many do not use primitive due to the time and dedication it takes. Instead they use a compound which seems to fit the time and dedication they have.

CaptMike,

" When they can use a superior weapon in a primitive weapon season, and the results have the potential to affect that season, It is my business to try and protect what I have. Based on the apathy shown here, if I don't, no one else will"

Primitive season? Really? Compounds are so far from primitive it is not funny.

Nothing can be done about it now. Xbows are here to stay. The only thing at this point I think should be done would be to limit the tech advantages moving forward.

"I suspect there are few to no people who fought against crossbows now using them"

Certainly didn't read it that way at all but since you mention it..... Those who 'actually' fought against it are a tiny tiny fraction of the archers. Sure there were lots of guys on sites complaining but they didn't do much to stop it. Most who use Xbows also didn't do anything to get them either. In reality both groups fighting for and against were small and still are. Those that do only bit#$ing about it to their buddies or around the campfire and online for and against it are many.

Hammer , You forgot one elements" the xgun is a high powered shoulder shot scope mounted precocked weapon. If you will note I have ALWAYS stated vertical bows because the mechanics of using a vertical are all the same weather a long bow, recurve or compound. Is a recurve easier to use then a long bow ? YES. Same can be said that a compound to a recurve. BuuuuT the mechanics for all three are the same to use them unlike a xgun.

Soooo your statement " A weapon is a weapon regardless of what it is """ is foolish! if that were true my 300 wsm would be the same as my recurve under your theory and I should be able to use it now. There is a reason why guns are not used during the rut.

The degrees of dedication to a sport along with the degree of difficultly of the sport are part of how good a person is and dedicated to that sport..

"Those who 'actually' fought against it are a tiny tiny fraction of the archers." Of course, we are both stating the obvious. The point being it was people who favor crossbow use who fought for it, not those who don't favor crossbow use. I'll continue complaining about them because there is the potential to have their use limited after the initial two year period they were granted. I am proud to say I was one of the few who fought against them so unless you were there, your last comment about "bit#$ing" about them applies more to you than I.

There is no doubt about that. Hunters are the most divided amongst all sportsmen. We bicker about everything and even judge people based on the weapon they choose as well as the accessories they use with that weapon. Hunters are down right brutal too. Using a legal weapon and getting a clean kill does not matter. What weapon was it and how did that person's kill affect me?

Now where can I send that membership check again..

NOT!!!

ARROW 1 ×100

Cmon man! This will seem strong but you cannot possibly believe that "lazy people" BULL! My kid is a 1st year bow hunter this year. She shot 6 or 7 times with a diamond infinite edge youth bow we borrowed and each time we shot for 20 min each. After a total of about 2 hours combined over those 6 or 7 shoots she was shooting a 5" groove. Now after another couple hours she is down to about 3-4" groove. 4 hours total and she is an effective shot on a target.

How is a Xbow person any different other than it takes 30 min to become effective? I mean with these new compounds it takes a little more effort than with an Xbow to become proficient but its not miles apart like it is with a primitive instinctive shooter like I was for 20 years. That takes real work. Couldn't we say that compound hunters are almost as lazy as Xbowers? Hell I know lots of guys who pull there bow out 1-2 week before hunting season for the 1st time all year and with a few small adjustments they are shooting great within 20-30 min. because an Xbow guy can cut that time down it makes him a lazy hunter because he can do it in 10 instead of 20? Cmon people lets at lets be fair minded... A compound is almost just as easy to master but DOES require a bit more effort but not a ton. There are 100's of thousands of deer killed each year by compound hunters who do not regularly shoot and pull their bow out a week or two before the season. Hell the numbers are likely more in the millions.

"your last comment about "bit#$ing" about them applies more to you than I."

You mistake my intent with that comment. It was not aimed or directed in a way to make it appear that's the way I see you. It is a generalization for most that rail against the Xbow but never did a thing to try and make a differance.

I have never much bitched about them for or against. I have tried in the past to lay to rest the bull some would try to pull that Xbows are somehow so much better a weapon to all the rest that it will wreck hunting as we know it. The odds go up 7% here in MI and though that will have a impact over 'time' given the age of the average deer I do not think it will have as big an impact a some think. I also often point to the facts that are provable the other way too that Xbows are easier to master, have a further kill range etc even though some try to claim otherwise. I guess you could say I argue both sides but it is more because it is better to talk facts than flagrant BS so a true and accurate and fair debate on the subject happens rather than insane claims on both sides just to whip on each other.

Buckmaster,

They hold kinda the same but take it from a guy who has shots 1000's and 1000's of rounds that a Xgun is not the same as any gun I have ever shot. I admit that I have only ever shot a Xbow 2 times for about 30 min combined but I noticed instantly that they are quite different. Especially in balance weight and easy of use 'offhand.' I am not defending them or advocating against them but some of this stuff we see in these debates on Xguns/Xbows is crazy IMO and does nothing to forward either sides cause. Because I don't care what a guy uses and it does not define the man or the hunter I try to stay indifferent. I do believe their tech advances should be limited though. In MI the 1st year they had a 250FPS limit but they lifted that the next year. They shouldn't have or they should have set it the same as a compound and not allowed a magnified scope. The magnified scope is my biggest bit$%.

According to some guys logic here we could say gun hunters are the lowest form of scum on earth and lazy pieces of cow dung because they don't use the same weapon we use and a good rifleman can site a gun in real close in 3 shots. I know gun hunters that would put most guys skills to shame but for some reason a Xbow hunter is somehow the only one getting bashed and it is ONLY because they are used in archery. If they had their own season I doubt much of the stuff said would ever be said. Well... unless that season was before ours that is!

Little side note. I have yet to see a Xbow shooter shoot off hand anywhere inside 50 yards that I could out shoot me with my compound! They need a shooting rail or a tree to lean against to win. Those Xbows are hard to shoot off hand.

Hammer your full of BS..

I'm mentoring my 10 yr daughter this year. She had opportunities at two really nice bucks already. One was just out of range for her 30 lb bow and the other busted her while she was pulling back.

Both buck would have been shot at and probably hit if she was using a crossbow.

The crossbow argument is getting ridiculous. She can't shoot much more than 20 yards and a 30 lb bow. She can easily shoot a 100+ lb crossbow. She would never had a problem holding the crossbow in the ground blind as she could have had a tripod, stick or bench. She had to pull back the bow at the time of shot.

Enjoy your crossbow season but stop making statement that they are the same. When you rest your crossbow and getting ready to tag your buck, I hope you think about a able bodied 4"6" 10 yr old girl hunting with a bow.

Good job getting a 4'6" 10 year old girl out there hunting. Just imagine how proud you would be if she was doing it with a self bow she made herself instead of a compound made out of modern materials with high let off and most likely a release? Isn't she really kind of cheating by using all the ultra modern equipment?

Why is it OK for elderly and handicapped to use a crossBOW in your mind if they're so easy? Why aren't you just saying that it's to bad they aren't able to use a compound anymore but the crossbow is so easy that it's not fair that they use it even if they only have one arm.

I'm not crossbow expert, I just decided to play with one enough to know the truth about them, they're not all that people think they are. I used one and I shot a deer with one and I already sold it and I'm using my compound. Why am I doing that? BEcause for my style of hunting, which is probably pretty much the same as most people on here, the compound is an easier weapon to use. If all I did was hunt in a box blind that might be different. There are a lot of people blowing smoke on here that have no clue what a crossbow really can and can't do. And yes they are archery, that's one reason they have BOW in the name. Go ahead and keep making it sound like shooting a compound is that difficult if you want to make yourself sound like a he-man but the truth is that it aint that difficult and it's not much different than shooting a crossbow. Sure you don't have to pull it back when the deer is there, so I assume you're against blinds also because that negates the difficulty in being spotted drawing the bow back right? Your trigger is strapped to your wrist and the crossbow is attached to a stock - big freaken deal!

Obviously, you missed the point.

She had to pull back the bow.

So it is a apples to apples comparison her 30 lbs bow to a Stryker 380 at 160 lbs? She can shoot the crossbow but couldn't do much more than 30-35 lbs on her bow.

She could use her grandfather's crossbow as he is disabled but she enjoys shooting leagues and tournament with her mother. I couldn't see having her dummy down her hunting experience plus in order to mentor her, I would have to purchased the pink crossbow license;)

"Just imagine how proud you would be if she was doing it with a self bow she made herself instead of a compound made out of modern materials with high let off and most likely a release?"

She could do it but when she'd shoot one, I would feel bad for the manly men crossbow hunters embarrassment making their pp's look even smaller;)

Listen....congrats on your season. Now that you have your season which you fought so hard for, why do you feel it's now necessary to justify yourself? Just go on your merry way and enjoy your hunt.

Picking on 10 yr old girl......priceless.

I'm not putting anyone down by the equipment my daughter uses. I am making fun at the individuals trying to justify their weapon and hunt.

Her choice is a bow and arrow. She has an archery license and hunts during the archery season.

Your choice is to hunt with a crossbow and bolt. You have a crossbow license and hunt during the crossbow season.

Two separate weapons.....get over it and stop trying to justify your choice of weapons

Good gravy.. how dense are folks.. it's no wonder we have a idiot running the country

Anyone can now hunt with a crossbow during the archery season -- which has proven in other states to significantly increase the number of hunters in the field during the archery season and, naturally, the number of deer killed before the gun season. But the change will NOT degrade the quality of the gun season nor the bow season? Really?

It sure seems like the quality of both the gun and bow seasons is being watered down so crossbow manufacturers, the 'hunting industry' and the DNR can profit(?)

Or am I missing something?

Me:"How is a Xbow person any different other than it takes 30 min to become effective?".......You pull that out of context!

You: "Hammer your full of BS.." ......and then blag blah blah. Exactly how is it i am full of BS? I was talking about the lazy hunter stuff not the effective kill range. We already know they have an effective kill range that is longer and I already addressed that. You must have missed it I guess.

"Enjoy your crossbow season but stop making statement that they are the same" .......I never said they were.

"When you rest your crossbow and getting ready to tag your buck, I hope you think about a able bodied 4"6" 10 yr old girl hunting with a bow."

Would that be opposed to me thinking that same thing TMRW when my 16 year old 1st year compound hunting daughter who could carry a rifle tmrw if she felt so disposed to do so draws on her 1st deer with a bow this weekend?? LMAO.....Are you just like some other people on some of these sites that either don't want to read or cant read? READ WHAT I WROTE! I have shot an Xbow all of 2 times in my life so I wont be tagging anything with an Xbow but if i so choose to do so at some distant point when I am old it would be my choice and would not make me a lazy hunter like some here claim Xbow buys are! If they are lazy then the gap from compound to primitive makes us compound hunters even worse then them because anyone with any experience with all these weapons knows primitive archery with instinctive shooting takes a long time to master compared to most compound shooters who can master shooting pretty darn well inside of 4-6 hours of practice over a weeks time even if they have never even shot a bow before

You buy a Xbow and in an "off hand" shoot off I will out shoot you with my compound at 40 and you can use the Xbow at 20 even and I will let you use a scope. I loose I buy a wounded warrior a hog hunt. You loose you do the same? Everyone already knows an Xbow is the better, faster, and shoot farther more accurately between the 2 weapons if it is shot from a rail but that was never in question or what I was even talking about. Also they are only like a gun in some areas IMO. Take the scope off and they are not anywhere near as easy to shoot and take some effort to dial in. Try shooting one off hand once! Try shooting one without a scope. it is harder than you think.

As to mentoring. My kid is 16 and the bow is set at 38LBS. The arrow goes 200FPS and she is effective out to 32 yards. could she shoot better and further with an xbow? Of course but that was never the issue or what I was talking about. if she used a Xbow for 30 min she would be where she was after 4 hours of compounding. Wow. 3.5 whole hours more and that somehow makes a compounder NOT lazy but because the the xbower only needs 30 min to get similar results he is now the lazy one was my point. It is an unfair characterization IMO. The weapon does not define the hunter!

" I couldn't see having her dummy down her hunting experience"

Why the compound then and not a primitive weapon? Did she choose the weapon and why? What if she choose to want to use an Xbow in a few years? Will you make her move out? Its not the weapon that defines the hunter using it and regardless of their weapon it by no means makes them lazy.

Buck master,

"You don't get it Hammer"

"Shooting deer at 60 plus yards does not belong with the archery season."

What I said previous: "I know gun hunters that would put most guys skills to shame but for some reason a Xbow hunter is somehow the only one getting bashed and it is ONLY because they are used in archery."

I think i do get it but it wasn't MY point.

By the way.... even though an Xbow can shoot farther and even though your odds are 7% better using one the actual average shot distance on harvested game is not that much more than a compound. its the scope and accuracy off a rail that's giving the better results more than anything IMO. Most shots with a compound are under 50 yards. I think a couple years ago I saw the results of a study or survey and the average shot distance was 5 yards more than compounds. Thats not much but given they have a scope and how they are shot you would naturally loose less game. Take the scope off and let em have at it and the results would be neck in neck IMO

" which has proven in other states to significantly increase the number of hunters in the field during the archery season"

"Significantly" is an over statement and not backed by what we have seen in MI or any numbers I have ever seen. It added some hunters but more than anything a lot of guys just switched weapons and or seasons because even though we have 140,000 Xbow users we did not add 140,000 hunters thats for sure. We have about the same as always but the new youth season regs according to the numbers has had the biggest impact. MI is still currently on a trend of shedding more hunters than we gain and Xbows has not changed that much

If the 7% pattern holds true in WI like here in MI you will have approx 6100 more deer killed due to the xbow being included in archery.

In 2013 WI archery hunters harvested 87,600 deer. Add 7% to that and thats 6100 more deer. That will not impact gun season very much as the kills are spread across the entire state.

I do not see the Xbows impacting season to season but 7-10 years from now if we compare now to then it will be the best indicator because 43,000-60,000 more deer will have been killed then would have been over that time and that is measurable for sure.

I hope every able-bodied crossbow user does that, then turns bright red in embarrassment.

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dnr/MI_Deer_Harvest_Survey_2013_459193_7.pdf

It states 'about 162,728 used a crossbow'. (Just an fyi - your 140k number is a little off) But something that jumped out at me was that the number of people using a crossbow increased by 14% from 2012 to 2013. And that is the 4th(?) year of crossbows in MI(?) You wrote that "It added some hunters...", like things had already shaken out, but that doesn't seem to be the case yet.

I was looking for basic stats from the MI site -- X number of archery licenses sold and Y deer killed in archery season in 2008 (or whatever the year was before crossbows were allowed) and the same numbers for the years since crossbows have been allowed. Do you know if that info is available anywhere? Even in the 2013 report, it does not seem to be available. But I could've missed it. They talk about crossbow stats but don't talk about combined crossbow+archery stats. Makes it hard to see what's really going on in Michigan...

Look at 2012 thats the one I used. Bottom line is look at the over hunter numbers over the past 20 years and even with Xbows the trend is still down. We may have had 162,000 Xbowers but we did NOT add 162,000 hunters. I spoke to the DNR just the other day about this and there are many reasons why we have so many Xbowers but are not seeing huge hunter increases over all. Many gun hunters have moved into Archery with an Xbow to get that early advantage and have better weather etc etc. Many compound users have done the same and laid their compound down and used the Xbow but the fact remains that xbows are not making a huge impact on hunters being added to the over all ranks of all hunters combined for the state.

You can look at the DNR harvest report page and the Xboy study/survey info is there along with each years harvest data going back to 08'. The number of deer harvested has always went up and down year to year but last year saw the lowest harvest of the past several and we even had the most Xbows in the woods according to the 13' data you sited.

Buckmaster,

"They said they were heavy and hard to shoot and had no range. All LIES!!! Geezzz….. "

Not quite 'all' lies. Here in mi we heard all that AND we had a 250FPS limit on them the 1st year so they were not really better than a modern 310-330FPS compound at the time. They lifted that restriction and made it unlimited FPS the next year. The 'are' very heavy and front loaded weapon in comparison . They 'are' heavy and also rock side to side IMO which is why they are not so great shooting off hand and why I know there is no one that uses one I have met that can out shoot me with my compound if they shoot the Xbow off hand at even half the distance I shoot. The Xbow would suck for stalking or quicker shooting IMO. However I agree they offer other big advantages that offset their setbacks but I know they are heavy and hard to shoot off hand but not off a rail because I shot one on 2 occasions to see it 1st hand. They defiantly have a range advantage but it is not as wide as some claim either and there is one BIG reason they get the advantage. The Xbow is much better than a compound providing it is one of the better quality Xbows. The cheap ones that are slower or about the same speed of a compound do not shoot farther per se. The problem is they are getting to the point where a mid grade Xbow is 400FPS so it can keep up with a compound down range on speed but the scope is the difference maker.

My buddy and i were just in the store getting ammo for his sons handi rifle and i picked up 4 or 5 of the better ones to check out the new tech and they were heavy as hell. I put one up to my eye and couldn't believe the damn cheater scopes some of these things have on them. Hell one even had yellow glass covers for better low light and reflection. Thats BS and cheating. Having a magnified scope with yardage assist is not archery related IMO. To me I could care less if a guy has a Xbow in archery but the scope is a giant TURD to me and should not be allowed. The guy who posted his Xbow kill above....Good on him for getting a dandy buck but look at the scope. Thats not archery to me when a scope is involved. Take it off and use instinctive shooting or pins like everyone else and I wouldn't care if it shoots 1000FPS then.

how many of you have shot a Xbow? If you shot one without a scope you know what I am talking about. How many have shot one with a good modern scope on it? Their is a world of difference in ease of shooting and ease of shooting long distance. Thats the only thing about an Xbow to me that is not archery. Everything else i could care less about because the Xbow has been around for 1000 years. lol

Yes it is! If they were not used in archery and after archery you wouldn't give two craps.

Again like I said above when you quoted me for the 2nd time "I think i do get it but it wasn't MY point."

Let me ask you....If they removed the scope from them would you have an issue? What if they limited the speed so that at 20,30,40,50,60 yards they shot close in speed to a compound and they disallowed a scope? Would you be against them then being used? Be honest

Congrats on raising a fine young lady hunter!

My daughter "had" to have a bow which limbs were 30-40 lbs. The shop worked it as low as it could go so I knew she was shy of 30. As the seaso approached, I'd do a half turn here and there. Tested it at the broadhead shoot and she was still shy. I put another turn in it and it was just over 30. She never knew the difference.

When I took her out, I was prepared to keep her entertained as I didn't expect her attention span to be there. To my surprise after seeing the first deer, she didn't want to play games but watch for deer.

Her few mistakes made cost her a good shot at a deer. If she would have used a crossbow, she probably would have one of two big bucks. Sure she would have had quick success buck but what did she get out of it and what did she learn?

She would have harvested a buck which many bowhunters seldom or never get an opportunity to on her second and third night. No challenge, no education and just like the rest of the kids these days which their entitlement. "hunting is easy dad, I'll stay home and watch tv and video games". Where do you go when you start at the top of the mountain?

Instead, her experiences have grown her interest in hunting more than I expected. She has experienced her heart pound as a buck looked at her eye level at 10 yards, her disappointment of being busted as she pulled back and understanding of her limits with her equipment as a buck stood 5 yards out of range. She is even disappointed in me that I refuse to set a 30 yard pin for her because she has not practiced at that and her lbs limit it.

All of this would be lost if she looked through the scope and pulled the trigger on her second night. My father required me to bow hunt for two years before I could gun hunt, he wanted me to learn how to deal with a deer at close range and to have patience. I love gun hunting but also want my kids to learn like I have.

I would like them in the archery season if you used fingers on string.

I did find the other reports - thanks. And they show that, in 2008, success rate was highest in the gun season (vs archery, muzzleloader, etc)

Now, in the latest report - 2013, the highest success rate is enjoyed by ... people who use crossbows during archery season. Do you not count that as a significant impact?

And hunter satisfaction -- again, this is from the published MI DNR 2013 report -- is down 13% from 2012. Go figure.

Yeah I guess you got me. I don't even own one and never have but I am a lover of Xbows. Sure! I am more just fair minded enough to not attack a guy because he uses a weapon that is legal because again the weapon does not define the hunter. I find it ironic that when any facts are pointed out on this topic the guy doing it though he doesn't even own an Xbow and has only shot one 2 times is suddenly a Xbow lover. That takes the cake. Like I said before....I have no issue with a Xbow being used in archery providing the tech is limited and the damn scope should have to go. If they had no scope I would have zero issue with a Xbow being in archery season. If that makes me a lover then so be it.

"you lovers of cross guns can't figure out why we don't trust ya"

Well geeee maybe next you will call me part of the lobby for Xbows and a spreader of lies too. lol

By the way...This a.m my kid had 3 deer at 10 feet and then held at 20 for 10 min. There were 2 knot heads and one doe. Finally a buck came in at about 58 yards and stood there hung up due to the wind shifting around. Her compound only shoots out to 30-32 yards max so she didn't get a shot. I knew stuff like that happens in hunting and would certainly limit her over most hunters due to her bows range. I have seen it all and still didn't buy her an Xbow now did I. hmmmmmmmmmm..... Tonight and tmrw she will go back at it and see if she can get a shot.

Yeah I did! They have a 7% better success rate. I have that plastered all over this wall and the other one. Did you miss it?

The reason satisfaction was down was it was our worst harvest in a while due to EHD and a hard winter and NOT because Xbows were allowed. Adding 12 counties to an APR didn't help either. The Xbow kills have not yet had any significant impact on overall harvest info

. We can try to make things look better or worse if we choose but I choose to use the actual info and what is there. I am regularly in contact with the MI DNR and Xbows are NOT why hunter satisfaction is falling or why we have lost so many hunters for 2 decades.

Yeah, I must've missed where you posted that crossbow success is higher than gun success. And you posted that all over, eh? Can you point that out to me?

Thanks, you finally understand the difference between the two weapons and the limitations of a bow and arrow. You're daughter's bow limits her like many archers. Now she can shoot a an adult crossbow which only limitations is the the weapon itself.

Most bowhunters limit themselves at yardage less than 30 yards.

Good luck to your daughter.

LOL. I suggest you read all the 'other' data too instead of just what you want to see. Go look back at archery compared to gun season for the last several years prior to the Xbow. No one denies the Xbow user has an advantage right now and likely always will have a little advantage but so did we compound guys have an advantage before the Xbow came along. Imagine our numbers if gun hunter had their season before ours? LOL.....The xbow in 12' met with success at 42%. The gun hunter was nearly 38%.... However in 2008 the archer had 44% success and the gun hunter that same year met success at only 40%. The archery guy gets that advantage because they go 1st and not because a primitive weapon and compound were a superior weapon to that of a gun.

Also note that close to 20% of the Xbow users in 11' are gun hunters taking advantage of being able to hunt during archery when it is easier to kill a deer to start with but we cant have that now can we. Looks to me like we will have a camo army soon enough instead of an orange army and that's what this is really about. It is about greed. I say we incorporate all seasons and use whatever weapon you want or keep it the same and every other year let the gun guys go 1st so everyone is treated fairly. Us archers are such elitist even though we have the advantage big time due to sheer deer numbers and unpressured deer in relationship to the season.

About 25,000 hunters who had not hunted in archery season the previous 3 years used a Xbow in archery.... Gun hunting participation dropped 10% and gun harvest dropped 27%. Archery participation increased 13% and harvest increased 24%. It is a flip flop of the numbers. In all that haze of data and influx of hunters into the archery season the Xbow user meets success only 7% more than the rest of the archers and in the state of WI that will account for about 6300 more deer killed the 1st year depending on how many more archers are added. This will continue to climb as more and more guys switch and some newbies pick up an X bow instead of a gun. However overall the harvest numbers overall for all groups combined likely remain the same and static like they have here. The Xbow will not ruin the herd or make for 10's of thousands more deer kills a year like doomsayers say it will.

Side note: "Although the number of hunters and deer harvested in the regular firearm season decreased at the same time participation and harvest increased in the archery season, it was not possible to ascribe these changes solely to the authorization of crossbows. The opening date for the regular firearm season was known to affect the annual changes in deer harvest and hunter participation in the regular firearm season. Generally, participation and harvest in the regular firearm season have been greatest for seasons starting Thursday through Sunday. The regular firearm season started on Saturday in 2008, Sunday in 2009, Monday in 2010, and Tuesday in 2011. Thus, annual changes in harvest and participation in the regular firearm season were confounded by the changes in crossbow usage in the archery season. The opportunity for archers to harvest deer with a crossbow did not lead directly to a higher harvest of deer overall (Table 1). The total harvest of deer during the archery season increased in 2009 and 2011 compared to the prior years, but was nearly unchanged from 2009-2010 (Table 2). The total harvest of deer during all seasons combined declined or was similar to prior years in each year during which archers could use crossbows. This occurred despite a more than doubling of the number of deer harvested with crossbows 2009-2011 (Table 5).

We hunters are epically hopeless if we only take in what we 'want' to see!

"Thanks, you finally understand the difference between the two weapons and the limitations of a bow and arrow."

1st off the limitation on my kids bow she is using has to do with it being a youth bow and her only pulling 38 lbs and also having a lite arrow. She needs to get much closer shots. It can shoot to 30-32 yards but 20-25 is ideal. Anything further and the lite arrow will slow down to much and may not penetrate well. If I was hunting my bow would have reached that buck easy had I wanted to take a long shot which I would not do at 58 yards. Had he been at 50 and I was the one hunting he would be hanging right now!I think I made it extremely crystal clear between this thread and the other that Xbow users have 7% better odds than all other archers. I have said a number of times the Xbow is faster and shoots farther and is even more accurate off a rail. I have said the scopes should be outlawed too. WTH more can a guy say? I just happen to take it a step further than that and point out some limitations of the weapon. If it didn't have those limitations success would be even higher. I also point to the preposterous notion that us ADULT compound hunters with our 320+ FPS compounds do not require very much more skill to master our weapon. Sure it is a little more than an Xboyer has to endure but it is only a few hours more and that somehow makes us not lazy but if a guy uses a Xbow he is defined as lazy. It is just silly IMO. Gun hunters are lazy too then and cheating because they are picking up a cross bow and using it in archery to get the advantage of unpressured deer in way higher numbers running around everywhere. Do you blame them? I would do the same if I was gun hunter. Why wouldn't a guy? Swap the seasons around every 2nd years and make it fair but that we cant have because that would mean gun guys are lazy as well right?

"Most bowhunters limit themselves at yardage less than 30 yards."

I have a 45-50 yard limit and most hunters I have hunted with are between that 40-45 limit but not 30. 30 is optimal and outside the average harvest distance of a Xbow and compound both! Did you know that? I will also say I know of no adult compound shooter with a modern compound that will refuse a decent shot at 40-45 yards. Both the weapons are capable to shoot further than the average harvest but most guys don't because they just don't have to.

B.S.......and you probably should take your post back to your MI forum. Especially this time of year, unless hunting a field, 20 yards is about it when hunting woods.

Testing hundreds of hunting bow set ups, very few are safely over 300 fps. Usually too light of arrow to get those speeds. I have a Destroyer 350. Yes, IBO is 350 but I'll never see it. As an example, I lowered tips to see if I could get 300. Yes, I did finally hit 304 but my efficiency was terrible. A crossbow does not have this issue. What add-ons are needed.

Because your believe 30 yards is not effective for your daughter, you decided to purchase a crossbow. You have mechanically disabled her with the crossbow. Do you believe your and/or her cannot get within a range most bowhunters can?

I'm fairly certain many members of the WI regional forums would like you to take your propaganda back to MI.

lmao.. You ever heard of cutting lanes ahead of time so your effective kill range goes up and you are not stuck with only a 20 yard and under shot? A 40 yard shot is not that difficult unless hunting a thicket or very thick woods of some kind where you purposely cant, don't or wont clear lanes and you want a short shot.

"A crossbow does not have this issue"

Yes it does! All IBOS are set off some outrageously low arrow/bolt weight that most would not use. An Xbow does not shoot what the IBO says in the real world unless a crazy light bolt is used. Same goes for compounds. We use IBO's to bash a Xbow but now we want to say the compound IBO is somehow different? Not a chance!

"Because your believe 30 yards is not effective for your daughter, you decided to purchase a crossbow."

Ok here is where this might get nasty because you sir need to take a reading comprehension class I think!! My 1st year archer daughter uses a borrowed Diamond infinite edge "compound" youth bow and I already said that and none of my post indicate any Xbow use by her or me ever when hunting. We don't even own a Xbow and as I said a number of times I have only ever shot a Xbow of my buddies friends 2 times for about 20 min each time. I only did that to learn the fact from fiction on the Xbow. It is largely why I am so against a scope being allowed on an Xbow but not so much against the Xbow itself or did you miss that too? Its what's on them I take issue with.

" You have mechanically disabled her with the crossbow"

Again learn to read! She uses a compound and we own no Xbow. Where the heck are you seeing anything anywhere I have written here that I said I purchased her a Xbow? I didn't even purchase her a compound yet and instead borrowed my buddies kids compound bow like I have already said.

" Do you believe your and/or her cannot get within a range most bowhunters can?"

I believe you missed something huge and have no clue what you're talking about and you somehow are either accidentally or purposely are twisting things up to deflect the debate. The deer winded us and was at 58 yards so she could not take the shot with the "compound" she was using that is only effective out to 31-32 yards max due to a 38 pound draw weight and lite arrow and very short draw length. Out of my compound it would be pushing it on a 58 yard shot but 8 yards closer and standing at 50 and it is a dead deer. Again I never said or even hinted she needed a Xbow or should have one or does have one so I have no clue where you make up this stuff up from????

"I'm fairly certain many members of the WI regional forums would like you to take your propaganda back to MI"

Well since I sometimes hunt WI and since I am not spreading propaganda and instead talking facts and your making stuff up I will decline your kind offer. When guys like you flat out make crap up about what a person said and even go so far as to flat out mislead a posting about what a person said then it is you that spreads propaganda sir!

It is no wonder the Xbow guys stomped the resistance so bad with such wonderful logic and friendly atmosphere all gathered in one place against it. Gezzz guys wake up please. The only way to lessen the impact of the Xbow that is for sure here to stay is to limit its tech advances and roll back things like allowing a scope. You put sight pins on one and it is much harder to use than it is with crap on it like a magnified scopes or yardage assist etc. We can find better ways to bring the advantage back our way a little but that wont work because if not 100% against anything g Xbow then you are the enemy.

Carry on to 500 post then. Later!

Sam can be said each year by the long distance compound hunter out west. Just because a guy kills a critter at 69 does not mean that is even close to the average of all Xbow kills combined. Like I said they are not that much further on average than a compound. You look at survey stats and each weapon as you move up the scale has an average and the Xbow sits at the top by a whole 5 or so yards or something like that. You guys make it seem a 60 yard shot is the norm.

Hell I can kill Deer all day long with a shotgun at 75-80 yards but when I used a shotgun to hunt I rarely needed to take a shot that long or even over 50 yards. I could have but jus rarely needed to.

Just because it can and just because some do does not make it the case for the masses and it seems the insinuation is the Xbow guys are plunking every deer of at 60-100 yards.

They should have openly excepted xbow use and put the effort of limiting the draw weight by adding a draw weight max of 70 max draw along with the minimum draw weight requirement to hunt deer..

Clearly a 70lb bow would easily still outperform a 70 xbow...that would mean had this group used 100% of its efforts to set a maximum 70lb draw weight allowed instead of consorting with the xbow pushing archery season theives... you could have had open use of the xbow.. for those who chose to do so...but archery gear would still be superior as far as performance which would have retained most or all of guys going over to the other side.

Very simple solution to this whole ordeal is to limit the draw weight for the archery/xbow season to 70 lbs peak draw

Is that really where Wisconsin wants to go? A deer hunting season structure where NO ONE will have the choice of a less-crowded deer hunting season? All so the 'hunting industry' and DNR(s) can profit?

I'm lucky enough to own hunting land in Wisconsin, but I am not so short-sighted to think that "this doesn't affect me or my friends & family...just those poor saps that hunt public land..."

It has been that way for a long time. It was that way '''''prior''''' to the Xbow being a legal archery weapon too.

We have two issue. Apparently a dislike that we have to many hunters in archery now than in the past and the fact that the Xbow has a HUGE 7% advantage of being the deadlier weapon. Either way looking to the Xbow stats and saying they are more successful so that proves something is not the whole picture because archery hunters for years have had a higher success rate than the gun crowd and it is only because there are more deer when archers are in the woods and the deer have not been pressured and are still in their regular patterns for the most part at the start of archery. That is NOT the case in gun season.

Buckmaster,

What's your point for me with the F&S article exactly? I read half of it and stopped (will read the rest later) because I never said I disagree that the Xbow is a deadlier weapon and shoots further and that 'some' (many are not faster) Xbows are faster. I will only say again that the average kill shot from a hunter using an Xbow is not very much further than those using a compound and that is fact backed by real scientific data. This has been studied and surveyed and the Xbow though it CAN shoot much further 'rarely does' when used by the average hunter. 5 yards more on average in the stats is what it shows the Xbow hunters average advantage is and that is fact and not fiction. If you want to think they are all taking 50-100 yard shots or hunters themselves are saying their average kill distance with an Xbow is closer than it is being reported as then so be it but that would not line up with the facts I have seen thus far. If anything a hunter would likely BS on the + side of shot distance just like a fisherman that says I caught a fish 'this' big. lol

- Some people like xbows

- Some people are impartial on xbows

- Some people dislike xbows

- Some people think others using xbows will affect them, others don't, and some will wait and see what actually happens in WI

- xbows are here in WI, all-inclusive, for at least 2 years

- xbows require less practice to get proficient, next are compounds, with trad gear being the most difficult

- xbows have a practical longer effective range than a compound (2nd) and trad gear (3rd)

- no matter how much anyone tries, nobody is going to change someone elses' opinion on the topic but people will try anyway

- everything that can be said on the topic has already been said

OK, carry on people. Someone please try to find something original though.

Nope, I have 7 pins and they all work just fine.:)

If your going to try and slam him, at least you can get that much right! It really adds so much more to the put down!

Oh well, it really was a nice try and after all, the good news is, it's the thought that counts! :) :)

Happy hunting to you sir.

Gos, I don't see how. We just dumped #34 over 150 today and we have had 2 xbow hunters on my place for over 20 years. Guess how many of the 150's they taken? NONE.And they always get first choice on stands, go figure. I guess just really bad luck over 25 years right?

Call the legislature and inscribe it in stone. We now have proof positive the crossbow is incapable of contributing any affect to a hunting season.