They all said the crossbow did not hinder their hunting but the public land hunters were affected way more. What they were all excited about was when PA made antler restriction requirements. They said the deer population grew three fold and helped greatly counter the intro of the crossbow. Said growing up they were lucky to shoot a deer and now shooting Jumbos. I guess they couldnt count the brow tines in the equation for awhile which caused some issues but has since been recinded. Each area is different with some being 3 to a side and some 4.
I know that is PA info but thought it to be very interesting. Maybe we can start an argument about that now. LOL
And be careful what you post some on here would be willing to get the rope for you! And like someone wrote - "why did you open it in the first place if it said cross bow?" HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
There is no science anywhere that proves ARs are beneficial to the health of a herd.
I personally don't want additional government regulations. A trophy is in the eye of the beholder. If there was science behind having ARs, I might have a different opinion. I can practice self-imposed ARs if I choose.
The LP of MI added antler restrictions last year in 12 counties - kind of as a study. It is for sure too early to know results but this year could be telling for them. Maybe Hammer from that area will pipe in here and provide some feedback. He knows the LP of MI very well and is a good hunter. I personally have never hunted in the LP of MI.
The topics of xbows and ARs do not need to be mutually inclusive in discussion. I do expect this thread to become ugly though.
When you say health of the herd do you mean deer numbers?
I have had debate on this topic 7 ways to Sunday and it has been beat to death here in MI on our boards. I likely wont get to involved because it is just not worth it on this topic anymore.
A few things I know for sure.... We have one area (Leelanau co) of MI where APRS have been tried for multiple, multiple years now and they worked wonders. The bucks were older and bigger and hunter satisfaction in that county was higher than all others around it even though some would debate that point and how the sample is taken. It just so happens the 12 counties around it are the 12 counties Happy mentioned that now have a new 3 point on one side APR that hunters themselves in essence asked for. There is debate over the survey language that put this in place.
They just set this up and this year will suck for Northern MI hunters in the 12 counties because it will take 2 years before it plains back toward somewhat neutral. You basically have to sacrifice a year for the young bucks to get big enough to shoot. This is especially true if most bucks are not big enough to start with. Then the 2nd year they are good to go and most likely shooters and the lil ones are passed up. Then the 3rd year it gets even better. This will take several years so we cant use this year or next to measure this. This will be a case of wait 3 years and then see if it follows the same path as Leelanau county where hunter retention numbers stopped declining a few years after APR's. I think that number is the most important over all. Hunter satisfaction and hunter retention give good indicators if something is working IMO. If the jump way up in 3 or 4 years over the historic average then that will give us the answer we seek. Until then I will just wait and drop out now.
I will leave on this note..... A trophy is a matter of perspective of the guy doing the hunting and it has always been that way. The difference now is wayyyy more hunters(most)really do want a deer once in a while that is bigger than a basket rack 6 or smaller. That will never swing back the other way again so the DNR needed to try something to give us greedy horn porn hunters what we seek.
Have fun and be gentle on each other. People get banned on topics like this when they get carried away.
I feel that with the advancements in technology, that being 90% let off compounds and now space age crossbows, we have to do something to reduce pressure on the resources. I am not certain APR's are it, but they do provide some limitations. Hate to admit it, but I am swinging in Hammers direction.
You can swing in 'A' direction but remember I am NOT for mandatory APRS unless a super majority of hunters in any given area they are proposed supports them. I practice APR's myself and there is no APR where I hunt. If there was it would not effect me unless it was 4 on each side
Personally, I have been against all forms of resource exploitation for over 45 years. I was against compound bows, against crossbows, against inlines. I was for bowhunting due to the challenges it posed and the advantages it still provided the intended game.
That is all lost now, time to look out and defend the resource against exploitation from technology. Shortened seasons, APR's, you name it, I will consider it.
I have always been for super majority type votes on anything really. APRS are no different in my mind. If 2/3rds wants it I will sit back and not interfere. If half want it that's a different story. It appears here in MI that 2/3rds wanted it in those 12 counties.
I hardly would say that having older bucks in a herd is exploitation considering that's the way a herd is supposed to be in the wild anyway. Hunting 'is' "exploitation" regardless of how it is done or the weapon used so having an AR/APR is no more or less exploitative than not having one IMO.
I think what you don't like to see is our heritage slipping away more than anything and I don't blame you. We are in a new kinda of age right now and every thing just has to change no matter how hard we fight against it. I just pretty much stopped trying. Fortunately I can still kill any deer I want. I can pass the 3 point up or stroke it. I can pass up the 8 or stroke it. I almost always pass up dinky bucks but that's my choice. Some don't have that choice anymore because 2/3rds said so. What can we do about it if living in those areas? Nothing except enjoy that we still have a healthy herd and 93 days to kill any deer that has 3 or more points on one side. Life goes on and so does the herd and 3 points on one side will be no big deal in just 2 years. In a couple years this APR will have no real impact on anything overall 'unless' high grading comes into play which I doubt will happen with a small APR.
I am out before it gets hot in here
At some point some restrictions s must be implemented to preserve the resource itself. IMHO.. NONE OF THE BUCK ONLY COUNTIES should have had seasons at all.they should have been closed to all deer harvesting. From the lack of deer and previous over harvesting the resource.
Couple of ideas that have been mentioned are
#1 go to a 1 buck system
#2 go to a antler point restriction
There isn't much else that would reduce the pressures being placed on this invaluable resource.
Can someone please tell me how a crossbow has all the sudden become a gun and not a bow? Definition of a gun - a weapon incorporating a metal tube from which bullets, shells, or other missiles are propelled by explosive force. Crossbow no metal tube, no bullets, no shells, no missiles, and definitely no explosive force.
I don't want to crap on anyone's parade but the antler point restriction seems like a terrible idea also. Who are you to tell me or anyone else what is a trophy buck? My first buck ever was a 1-point buck, his other antler had fallen off but you know what when he stepped out I got that all familiar adrenaline rush and was super excited when I saw him crash 40 yards later. If anything every deer you get should be a trophy. Buck, doe, it doesn't matter! It's called deer hunting and not deer getting! Some years you get one, some years you don't! You people act like because they use a crossbow they are going out and getting every deer in the woods. They have to be just as lucky as you or I. You need to be in the right place, at the right time.
I shoot a compound bow and hunt with others who use a crossbow. It's not my place to tell someone how they should or shouldn't hunt. If I said to any of you, you know I don't like the way you have that stand placed or why are you using this arrow, this broadhead, whatever you would all tell me to piss off. You do things your way and I do things my way but isn't the overriding goal of any hunter to make a clean, efficient kill? If so, then choose the weapon you can accomplish this goal with whether that be crossbow or compound.
Xbow hunters meet success at a rate of 7+% more than all other archers so they do not need to be just as lucky. Xbow's do give an advantage.
If you could make your bow fling an arrow 100FPS faster and more accurately without changing draw weight would you do it? Of course you would because you could shoot further and increase your odds significantly.
I generally do not knock Xbows but a scope, gun trigger and shoulder fired weapon that is horizontal is nothing like any other "bow" so I can see where the case of red azz by many folks comes from given their advantages. However no Xbow user should be bashed. It is a legal weapon after all. We should not have a problem with a guy using one but rather those who made it possible to include them in "bow" season which up until recently only included "vertical bows" unless disabled.
Pasq, that is what I meant as well as people thinking that older bucks breeding affect the herd positively versus younger bucks breeding. We dealt with the genetics topic in that 400 post xbow thread. The age of the breeding buck does not matter to the health of the herd.
Here are some examples of crossbows vs. compound bows and their relative kinetic energy numbers: Crossbow average kinetic energy average: 327 fps / 420 grains = 99.747 KE
Specific crossbow setups (with varying draw lengths and weights for comparison purposes): -Wicked Ridge Invader: 297 fps / 445 grains KE = 87.18 -Stryker Strykzone 380: 375 fps / 395 grains KE= 123.37 -Parker Concord: 293 fps / 415 grains. KE= 79.12 -PSE Tac 10: 341 fps / 425 grains KE= 109.76
Vertical compound bow kinetic energy average: 285 fps / 400 grains = 72.16 KE
Specific compound bow setups (with varying draw lengths and weights for comparison purposes): -PSE Dream Season EVO: 65 # @ 311 fps / 375 grains KE= 80.55 -Darton DS 3800: 72 # @ 344 fps / 348 grains KE= 91.46 -Bowtech Invasion: 59 # @ 276 fps / 385 grains KE= 65.13 -Mathews Z7: 59 # @ 272 fps / 385 grains KE= 63.26
There are many things involved here, including draw weights, power stroke lengths, shooting techniques, arrow rests, etc., but on average, modern crossbows deliver more energy than modern compound bows. The difference is negligible however, especially when compared to a modern rifle (a .30-06 with a 150-grain bullet delivers a muzzle energy of about 2,800), so this comparison isn’t to suggest that crossbows can be used effectively at greater ranges than compound bows. With cutting-edge archery technology, shot placement is absolutely critical, and the bow is only as effective as the shooter.
APR's in Wisconsin will happen right after a final baiting ban,deer drive ban and gun party hunting ban. Anyone care to lay odds on any of these wonderful "traditions" being banned? Yep, right after beer and fish frys go out of style. The DNR has shown many times they will trade $24 for a chance at any buck.
Not to take this off topic but to your wager comment, I do see the end of baiting happening at some point in WI and it will be due to the continued spread of CWD. The non-baiting zones increase every year. CWD spread rates are increasing annually.
I am neutral on crossbows...but much like AW if your not a ballistic crazy person....your part of the problem. Really?
Dont own one...never shot one. Fact! Apparently that's not good enough for some.
YES in favor for AR...except for our youth. Hows that Pasq?
As you could care less how deer are killed as long as you personally either participate with the new weapon or are not effected because you own a huge pile of land.
Who exactly is the selfish one???
LOL
And this just in from the FYI department Pasq...it's "Barney Fife" not "Barner Fife!"
If your going to try and slam me, at least you can get that much right! It really adds so much more to the put down!
Oh well, it really was a nice try and after all, the good news is, it's the thought that counts!
(1) Antler Point Restrictions on Public Lands only.
(2) Antler Point Restriction for Crossbow users only.
This would be on lands owned by Townships and Counties only, decisions locally based. BC
sawtooth, then how would you classify someone using a recurve limbed crossbow versus someone using a compound and the crossbow was around long before the compound was. And how is harvesting animals within the legal limits now "exploiting the resources"?
and Baiting!
With a little fuel on the fire, I'm sure we can catch up to the crossbow thread.
#stirringturds
