Antler restrictions for private land
Wisconsin
Contributors to this thread:
I am just looking for some advice on a situation that has presented itself for my hunting group. Let me start by stating that I am the land owner but the following rule has been established by the three of us that hunt my land. We agreed that we want to shoot and hunt mature deer, meaning 3 yr old's and older. To do this we decided that any buck that is shot needs to have a shoulder mount done. We did this rather then some groups who have fines for shooting younger deer. One member of the group has now shot two two year old bucks, one opening weekend of this year and one last year gun season, the problem is he legitimately thought they were both "giant" bucks. This is the same hunter that 3 years ago shot the biggest buck we have ever gotten and now seems to have buckfever constantly! My question is what should I do moving forward? I have already tried to talk with him about field judging bucks for age and he thinks he can, obviously not in my opinion. Do I tell him 3 strikes and you are out or what would be my next move? Mind you this man has been a great friend of mine for 20 years and that trumps everything, but at the same time he is taking bucks away from the rest of our group and the neighbors who practice the same ideas as us....please constructive ideas only
Are You verifying age via teeth? QDMA has a great dvd on aging live bucks. I don't believe the $500 mount fee is a deterrent. If each of you can take 1 each with bow and gun I would give a 1 buck penalty for dumping a young buck. So, if a guy takes a 3+ with a bow and a 2.5yo with a gun, next year he gets 1 buck total and if it's another 2.5yo he gets none the next year. Weigh, tooth age every buck, have trail cam discussions on age and why.Antler mass? nose? neck/chest? Belly sway? ect.Antler score is really no factor has most bucks will never gross 130. Some guys just short circuit. He may simply short circuit his way out of camp. Hopefully he will mature maybe not. We have 3 in camp that are 140 plus, 3 are mature only and 2 disabled who can take whatever they want.6/8 average 1 buck/year. Goodluck,
Because you can impose whatever rules you like, you can simply tell him he is allowed only one buck a season. Or, simply tell him what you told us, he has goofed up two times in a row and at some point he will be told he is not welcome should it continue. I've done that to my own brothers who have been my brothers for 50+ years.
Everyone can make a mistake in the heat of the moment. I get that but if it is a continuous thing you might have to impose limits on him. Being close friends for so long makes it tougher as you hate to choose between a friend and a buck. I would have a serious sit down with him and express all of your concerns and how you don't want to be put in this kind of position. Let him know how much his friendship means to you as we'll as how much letting the lil guys get bigger means to all of you in camp. We also have the no buck unless you're going to mount it except for kids, they can shoot whatever they want.
Well I guess you can sit them down and let them know that they need to work harder on identifying age on the hoof and in the brush, and if they are not 1000% sure they better let it walk. You can also put a rule in that if they screw it up again they lose the ability to takes bucks of the property for a year. After that if it happens again they will not hunt the land ever..
Or you can tell them they are not allowed to take a buck until Oct 15th for archery and thanksgiving for gun season. no matter how big it is. upside to this is they have to look at hopefully a lot of bucks and start seeing age better without the panic.
Alderrub, you say you have this policy about mounting what you shoot (I like it!), but you don't say if the guy that shot the two small bucks complied with that rule. Did he? I think you should enforce your rule and if so he would probably make some changes to what he shoots in short order.
Well so how much is a freindship worth?
It is a sad state of affairs that we as deer hunters put so much importance on what in the BIG picture is not really all that important!
Friendships come and go, but friends that have been with you for 20 years are rare indeed.
Is it worth a friendship? I dont think so!
Continue to mentor, work with him and "be a friend" as he's not doing with intent - If he had them to do again - he would not have shot.
Deer have torn brothers apart, Uncles, Sons and Fathers as well as families. They no longer speak to each one another - OMG - so hard to believe - all over a stinking deer - so very very sad!
A friend of twenty years is a rare! There almost like family - save the friendship - enjoy the hunt and the memories. Good memories are worth so much more than any deer that roams Wisconsin.
Life my friend, is way too short! Cherish and enjoy!
I'm with Bloodtrail on this subject. To me a friendship is worth so much more than a deer. A friend of over 20 years isn't simply a friend but I consider those with whom I've been friends that long with, family.
QDM is tough. We tried this within my hunting group for a few years. The problem we would have is we would let that spike or fork go and the guys next to us would kill that animal. If you have everyone in your area on board then maybe it will work but deer can cover a lot of ground. I've met some pretty crazy land owners in my day who seem to think that just because a deer shows up on a camera on their property they "own" that animal. Short of putting up fences around your property they are free to come and go as they please.
Someone mentioned the idea of reviewing trail camera photos and working with him on scoring of those animals.
On the other hand, just how good of a friend might he be if cannot follow his friend's rules? Don't think there are many choices other than having a heart to heart with him. By doing so, you would be giving him his third strike. What he does after your discussion might give you more insight into how much he values your friendship.
The rule is on the land that any buck that gets shots gets mounted. So, if he mounted both bucks you really have no issue with him. If he didn't mount one or both bucks then you have an issue.
If you are in to trail cameras, make a photo album of "shooter bucks". If you start taking photos in mid July you should have most of the local big boys on film. I know others will show up but from the photos alone he will have a good idea of what is acceptable or not.
What did these 2.5 year olds look like? A 2.5 year old can make P&Y in rare instances - or so I've been told. BC
Guys the points you make are all very valid I appreciate the responses. He is in the process of getting last years buck mounted and I hope he will do the same with this years. Also we do monitor the deer year round with trail cameras. In both cases these were 8pt bucks that were maybe 110 inches and ones that I had specifically told everyone not to shoot. Yes he is like a brother to me and that is why this is difficult. These are the steps that I am planning at this point. 1.) Sit down and tell him he absolutely needs to take some time to work on field judging animals and in the heat of the moment be SURE what he is actually seeing. 2.) Tell him that he will not be able to hunt until after both of these bucks have been mounted. 3.) If he doesn't do any of these things or if he does and continues to shoot the young deer that we have around he will need to find somewhere else to go.
Bros before Does...and Bucks. If this gentlemen is your friend of over 20 years, do what friends do and talk it out. I wouldn't punt that friendship over a deer....ANY DEER!!
He's your friend. Sit him down, share a beer, and explain that as the property owner and a neighbor to the other property owners that you have a Gentlemen's agreement to respect. Out of that respect to everyone who hunts on your land and to the neighbors that you have given your "word as bond," to, WE...meaning everyone that hunts on these properties has to honor that agreement. Tell him your WORD, was on behalf of everyone who hunts your land.
I would not kick him off your property or lose a friendship over it however. Imagine this...
80 year-old man sitting at the table with his grandkids looking at a photo album. Youngest grandson says, "Grandpa, who is that man with you in all these deer hunting pictures? I've never seen him before."
Grandpa says, "Well Timmy, that's Bob. I haven't spoken to him for over 20 years."
"Why not Grandpa?"
"Well, back in 2012, before you were born, he shot a 2 year-old buck that wasn't big enough. The neighbors and I got mad and that was that."
"Grandpa, is this why we can't have any friends hunt with us and why Uncle Billy hunts somewhere else?"
"this man has been a great friend of mine for 20 years and that trumps everything"
When it comes down to it, a deer is only a deer so refer to your statement above.
I really understand the statement about friends first, I truly do. The only issue with that is if he doesn't respect the friendship enough to follow the rules we all agreed upon and puts me in this position time and again do I just keep letting it go? Respect of the relationship needs to go both ways....Because of the long friendship is the only reason he is getting another chance.
Kick him in the balls every time he shoots below your restrictions. You now owe him two kicks.
After he gets his voice back, shake his hand, and enjoy the season.
Change your restrictions to a penalty with a bit more beef to it, because he has done nothing wrong in all actuality. I think your sit-down plan will work. It sounds like you haven't been sincerely honest with him. A real friend reciprocates your friendship. You both can say anything to each other....even when the conversation may hurt some feelings. I would hope both of you will not let a deer get in the way of that? I know you own the land, so your rules, but I'm not a fan of setting someone else's goals. If he agrees, then fine. If he doesn't, try hunting public land, where management is lacking? Tell him his chance to shoot that big boy he did in the past will not happen if he shoots a 2.5 or if he hunts somewhere else, where management might not exist.
And then kick him in the balls one more time as a friendly reminder LOL!
Kick him in the balls every time he shoots below your restrictions. You now owe him two kicks.
After he gets his voice back, shake his hand, and enjoy the season.
Change your restrictions to a penalty with a bit more beef to it, because he has done nothing wrong in all actuality. I think your sit-down plan will work. It sounds like you haven't been sincerely honest with him. A real friend reciprocates your friendship. You both can say anything to each other....even when the conversation may hurt some feelings. I would hope both of you will not let a deer get in the way of that? I know you own the land, so your rules, but I'm not a fan of setting someone else's goals. If he agrees, then fine. If he doesn't, try hunting public land, where management is lacking? Tell him his chance to shoot that big boy he did in the past will not happen if he shoots a 2.5 or if he hunts somewhere else, where management might not exist.
And then kick him in the balls one more time as a friendly reminder LOL!
Seems like he likes to shoot bucks, even young ones. One simple rule change would fix it all.
One buck per person per year. So if he tags a 2 year old in October he can't shoot another buck that year.
Sounds like he is satisfied with shooting a 2 year old deer, which is fine in my book. I have a problem telling anyone they can or can't shoot what ever they want. If they want to shoot a spiker or wait for that monster buck it's their choice. Not mine.
Friendships are wonderful if everyone plays by the same rules.
We have an understanding that it's one buck per year on our properties and no group bagging during gun season. Your buck tag is your own. Regardless of size. We call it the one and done rule. We've been doing it for over 15 years and only once has someone killed 2 bucks.
He no longer hunts the properties because of his greed.
We use a monetary fine system at one of the camps I hunt at. You can take any buck you want, but if it doesn't follow the criteria, you pay. The money goes to the camp expenses.
Did he mount the deer? Do you think he really can't hold back, or is that just what he is telling you? He may be playing you? A deposit of cash, money on the line, will likely cause him to think a little harder or see a cash downside of giving you a story.
So this problem has continued. My friend now say's he is European mounting the bucks and that I am bad friend for enforcing the rules and telling him he needs to do shoulder mounts on both bucks. Apparently it also my fault that I have asked him not to hunt anymore this year. He doesn't want to take responsibility but instead only make excuses as to why I am bad friend, except he put us in this situation. Does this really sound like someone that respects the rules that we have in place or me as a landowner, I don't think so. Any thoughts now?
Alderrub,
I only have one question for you. Does it really matter what any of us on this message board think or have to say on the matter? Are you looking for justification of your final decision? Again I would ask why? You don't need our approval to do what you believe is best for you, your hunting group, and your neighbors.
Sounds like you already made up your mind, so "stone up" and deal with it. Let your yes be yes and your no be no.
You mentioned respect and that's a big deal. If you want the rest of your family and hunting party to respect you....stop posting about it on a message board, put on your big boy pants, and handle your business.
I do feel bad for you, sounds like a 20 friendship is at risk.
I think I would sit down with him again and explain to him your position, your thoughts, your reasons, etc., (I'm sure he already knows but do it again) then ask him, "If you were in my position today, what would you do about this situation I'm in?" He answer will tell you about the type of person he is, you may already know. BC
Tell him to follow the rules or find someone else's rule to follow. Free land to hunt and he can't follow the rules? Hes out.
I didn't read all the replies, so if this has been suggested already I apologize. Sit down and have a good talk, not a lecture, but a buddy to buddy talk. Remind him of the rules you ALL agreed to. Tell him that you can understand a mistake once in a while. But if it continually happens, he has to go one season without shooting a buck on your land. I took this approach with a close friend. We are still great friends, and he is more selective.
I also convinced him that by letting some deer walk. You get to watch them and learn a lot about deer behavior. Now 6 years later he is a better hunter for it.
Zonks, I am trying to find advice from people who may have been in the same situation. Nothing to do with "stone up" and I want to figure out a way my friend will still be my hunting buddy but also follow the rules WE agreed upon. I have done everything that you are all suggesting and I feel like I am out of options, except one.
Today the other friend that hunts with us is going to call him and explain the situation AGAIN. If he cannot see why we are upset after two of his buddies explaining it, then I am truly out of options.
It's your land so I guess it's your rules. But IMO the having to mount the deer is one of the dumbest rules I've heard of. I have one deer mounted and that's all I want mounted. If I shot a monster I would probably do a European mount or possibly just the rack on a plaque. If you really forced me to have it mounted I would find the cheapest place to have it done and hang it in the garage. To expect someone to spend $600-$1000 to have a quality shoulder mount done on every deer they shoot is going a little extreme.
The other thing to consider is that if even after you and your other buddy have a talk with him, he still does this. He may simply not care and be a selfish individual.
Does he pay to hunt? If so, you should have written rules and requirements and a penalty if it's not meet, like they have to take a year off. If not then I would tell him he's on probation, another smallish buck and he loses his free invitation to hunt. It really is not that hard to field judge racks, but field judging age is not always easy. I like the idea of shooting mount worthy deer, but I don't think it's a sustainable rule. But most hunters should know what that means.
Deer hunting as of late has created more enemies and destroyed more friendships then it has anything else. Is the deer more important then your friendship? If the deer is the important one here I think you need to rethink your priorities in life. But if your friend is important to you then continue to hunt and have fun. A better way of showing your haste toward shooting these smaller deer would be to ask the guy how many 115 inch deer he wants on his walls? Or simply state to everyone that you don't care what size deer they shoot but don't complain after they find it is smaller then they thought. Misjudging the size of deer is a big issue especially when people see a lot of the same size deer. They all start to look big. Too lose a friend over deer is kind of selfish to me.
Alder,
I don't think you can show any more grace/patience than what you have explained. Hate to see a friendship end, but it still goes back to your land, your rules, and respect to you, the rest of your hunting party and your neighbors. Hope your friend "gets" that so you can remain friends and keep hunting together.
WOW!
I'm guessing that many of you don't have friends of 20 years, I'm really surprised at some of these responses. Did anyone think that his friend may not put a deer on as high of a pedestal as some on here do.
Everyone says that the DNR takes all the fun out of hunting, looks like it falls on our own shoulders to make and keep it fun. Many on here have said that kids can shoot what they want. Do you not think that they don't hear the complaining about Joe Hunter shooting a little buck and he should have passed on it so it can get bigger for me to shoot and everything else that hunters complain about. Do you think they want to deal with that crap? That is one of the reasons we can't get the recruitment of young kids, we can blame other stuff like video games and sports, but they want to do fun things and most hunters whine and complain about almost everything....from what the neighbor's shoot to the weather. Do you think they want to even start to get involved with that much complaining?
Now you have two friends, that probably grew up hunting together, that have 2 four legged animals driving a wedge between them. It is really sad!! The main question should be if the hunter was thrilled to get those bucks, if so, the excitement should have been shared.
I guess that if you can't be happy for the hunter on what he shot, you shouldn't have him hunt with you, forget about the friendship that you had and hunt by yourself and be miserable and complain about someone else for the years to come.
Bloodtrail said it right, life is too short to put a deer or two or ten in the way of life's important things.
I own land and let others hunt, I really don't care what they shoot as long as it is legal. If they are happy, I'm happy with them. I was on your road for a while, I put big bucks above a lot in my life. It was starting to get between me and others, including some family, then I had a "life changer", I was diagnosed with cancer. It made me step back a look at what was important........deer really didn't fall very high on my list. I've enjoyed every season much more ever since then.
Take everything that I said with a grain of salt, because you ultimately have the final say on what happens with your property.
It is nice to know there is another (fivers) Bowsiter on the same page.
So the other friend of ours was able to speak to or buddy and he seems to have a better understanding of why we are upset. He is not doing anymore buck hunting on the property this year and I am putting rules down on paper for next season. So if this issue comes up again we will all have it written down to look back at.
Some of you have stated that I am putting deer before friends which is not the case. I am simply trying to enforce the rules that all three of us agreed upon.
alderrub, you were put in a tough spot. Good to hear things are working out. BC
Since your friend took the biggest buck ever on your land he should be doing everything possible to not break your rules. You have to be strict to manage for mature bucks. I would enforce a $50 fine for shooting young bucks to be used for food plots or habitat improvements. If he doesn't like it, adios.
That's a tough one. You mentioned that the rule was agreed to by all 3 of you so it's disappointing that one friend didn't respect the wishes of his 2 buddies. Being the land owner gives you veto power over everything that happens and I have no problem with you sticking to your guns and enforcing the rules.
Having said that, if one guy is content to shoot 2-1/2 year olds then doesn't that leave the 3-1/2 and older bucks for just you and the other guy? I get the part about this year's 2 year old is next year's 3 year old but I think your odds got a little better. Maybe I'm over thinking that one.
If it were me and the rules (or failure to follow) is going to cause hard feelings, angst, and worry then maybe a re-examination of the rules are in order. I'm not saying this guy should be rewarded for breaking the rules but at least now you know what kind of character your dealing with. How about this for a new rule; you shoot a buck, you buy the beer and drink with us until we are done. Hoist that thing up high, let the shooter embellish the story as much as much as he wants and the rest of you give him as much crap as you want.
I used to think that the deer was way more important but then had things happen in my life that changed my perspective. They weren't as serious as cancer like FiveRs but they made me realize that life's too short to be pissed off at those closest to you.
Good luck!!
Friendship versus deer??????????????????????/
Yep, easy answer, DEER!!! Lol
Hard to believe people value a stinking deer the same as a lifelong friendship. Real simple. Its a freaking deer! Get over it! God makes more every November. Really stop and think about what your asking? Seriously.
So when a group of friends make a decision together and one of the group doesn't follow that decision you should just let it go for multiple times??? This goes for life in general not just hunting?? I was raised to stick by your word.
I used to get upset when a couple guys in my hunting party would shoot small bucks. We didn't have any real agreement about what we could/could not shoot, but everyone kind of understood to let the little ones go.But then it started to not be a good time anymore, because I was always cranky about a small buck being shot, or worried that I might shoot one too small myself.
But then a few years ago, I realized that we hunt for the FUN and ENJOYMENT, and who am I to say that my buddy shouldn't kill a yearling buck each year with his tag? As long as he is happy, then so be it. The rest of us will wait for the older bucks, and if that means I go a few years between bucks, then that is what happens. Everyone is having a good time, and I'm still able to get a mountable buck every 2-3 years.
You can try to educate your buddy on the benefit of passing young bucks, but if it takes away their fun, then they just won't abide by it.
You claim the friendship is 20 yrs long. Life throws a lot at a person in 20 years. Your friendship survived to this point. Your considering ending it over deer antlers. Seems more than silly to me, but hey whatever works for you.
Best advice, I've seen here is put it in writing. I would post it at the entry to the cabin or house you stay in and be done with it. Move forward, if it happens again and you feel like your generosity is being disrespected or unappreciated, handle it. A true friend is going to follow your rules out of appreciation/respect for your friendship and the privilege of hunting your land.