I feel like the crossbow is the hot topic of debate here, and feel like this dead horse has certainly been beaten dead.
I'm convinced that there are people on both sides who have tried to reason with the other side, to the point that most arguments have been repeated in triplicate and beyond. It is without question many people hate them, and will not EVER be convinced even using good reasonable arguments, that they have any real value in the archery season (given their own season). Likewise I'm certain no one is convincing the non haters that they are evil. Therefore, the best answer would be another ban on the topic. The facts are, they are here. Some hate them. Some love them. Some are indifferent. Some will hunt with them. Some will not. We have no Wisconsin data to show their true impact. We have many ideas and thoughts on their impact...or lack there of, but no real data.
I am not an advocate of them, but not a hater. There are slobs in every facet of everyday life. There are good people too. The contempt that some of our members have towards another member because they might not agree with you seems very silly. These sided debates happen in politics, religion, crede, sexual preference, etc. With very little hope in convincing the other party to sway. So perhaps all of this conjecture is for not?
Of course people can ignore the debates. And I'm sure plenty people do, as you notice new names in the "I shot it"posts, yet they don't get in the middle of those hot topics (bait, bucks, crossbows, back tags, DNR, Ron Kulas, etc.) Yet they are here. They must read the threads? Do you think they want to join in? Do you think they take a side? Do they perhaps sit somewhere in the middle?
I tend to think that we have far more lurkers that probably shake their head at these heated debates, would probably love to contribute to a topic that was more related to archery or hunting, or equipment, or habitat improvement etc.
Since there is obviously no convincing one side nor the other, perhaps another ban is in order? I believe debates that remain civil, and both sides can really keep an open mind, are healthy. I'm no pussy. I know how to fight, but the crossbow debate has been over (and over) a long-time ago. It has unfortunately ended in a deadlock. They're here. Not everyone likes them. Not everyone hates them. Some will use them. Some won't. Impact is all presumptuous. The human species loves to jump to the worst conclusions. The reason we do, as the letdown is always easier, and it can only look up!
Good luck guys!
What the he77 does anyone expect?
Take the gun season away from rifle hunters... you would have the same thing.
Dead horse?? If you think for one minute real dedicated archers are going to sit by and shut up cause as long as it's legal dill weeds support this out right act of war on the bowhunter...Its not happening.
Xbows have zero place in our archery season. Zero... they should have never been allowed for use by the handicapped and 65 and older either.. that was the foot in the door.
What sort of things are being accomplished at this point? Have you changed your opinion? Has anyone?
I agree with good debates if there is anything of value and worth that comes out of this. Not seeing it? If you feel you're softening up Zinger through all of this, good luck lol.
Good arguments take good listeners. People willing to embrace an idea that might not be theirs. Everyone feels the necessity to be right, even to the point that their reasoning skills go out the window!
I read these posts to my non hunting coworkers. Mind you their passion for archery is definitely not there, but that also allows them the ability to remain neutral. Care to guess who they side with? Not one single person has seen anything argued that goes against them (crossbows) that has merit in their neutral opinion. Overwhelmingly, they point to selfishness as the leading contributor to the hate. They heard the argument that it is easier. They said so what? Join them. This is how they see it. See, still no one winning?
Any moron can kill a deer. Only the good ones have the tools and stealth to get anchored and hold on that hair you pick out..
You can call it what you want.. but this archer is not going quietly
Pete - some good points in your original post, but the implication that bowhunters have to shut up and accept the change, because you're tired, isn't one of them. Doesn't hurt to discuss things. This is a bowhunting forum after all. And if you're tired of reading about or discussing it, I suppose you could think about not opening those threads and not starting another one.
pete is right in that no one is going to change anyone else's mind on this matter. People have their minds made up one way or the other and nothing the other side says is going to change it. It's like politics, I don't care what a liberal says they're not going to change my mind. I went into it with an open mind and came out with my conclusions, way to many went in with their minds locked shut.
There are other topics that aren't supposed to be on this site like wolf trapping so I don't see a problem with discussing crossbows.
I know some guys that have left this site due to the elitist mentality that is shown on this forum at times. I have come close, but still like to hear some peoples opinions etc on topics. Even topics I may not agree with others on!
I wish we could just all keep civil and discuss topics without making such a big deal out of everything. Wishful thinking I guess.
Side Note - And this reminds me of the emails at work when people 'reply all' to an email and say "Stop replying all" and it just adds to the issue. Well, you just did same thing, "Why are there so many topics on crossbows?"...and then you create one... LOL ;-)
Unfortunately, the "endless bickering" is a part of it. I don't really expect to change many minds but what I hope comes from continued exposure of the subject is that those who are against them get and keep motivated enough to voice their opinions, when and where it might matter.
Mike, just a little heads up. Some of these guys on team anti crossbow, might do you more harm than good "when and where it might matter". The people you will have to convince will need some better arguments than what you have so far. Remember these people are on a committee similar to my non hunting neutral coworkers.....and so far team anti crossbow is losing by a landslide. I'm not suggesting you concede, but you guys need to campaign with better clarity, or find a better reason if you think you are going to change something in 2 years. I have been part of a rules change (waterfowl hunting) during the spring hearing. I contacted people weekly for over two years. They decided to better clarify a ruling, and it is in my opinion worse than before.
Good luck guys. I honestly remain neutral, because I hunt private property. I have seen changes made to deer hunting for over 30 years. Some good, some bad. I dealt with it. My family is what's most important to me. Deer? Not so much. I love bow hunting. It is my release. I just refuse to get bent, especially if I wasn't involved in the effort. I might have been soured in my elaborate efforts to make change that was for the worse. You might think they beat me? If I told you how impossible it is to beat the system, you might know you really stand no chance? Oh, you can attend the meetings. They let you talk. Just not sure they're listening? And if you've ever seen some of these hick idiots telling their point of view that makes you cringe in embarrassment, you can understand why they have their mind already made up. Compare it to bowsite lol. For every educated argument, you have ten guys with a gut feeling that has very little meat on the bone.
Thanks for keeping it civil Mike. Good luck in your efforts. I'm neither for, nor against if that helps?
Pulleys, wheels, caster, camber whatever technology you want to apply, it seems there is an argument to be made that drawing and holding a compound bow is a difficult task in its own right. Even with the high let-off numbers. Most of us have drawn too early on a deer at one time or another. It feels like your shoulder is going to rip right out of its socket. That will never happen with a crossbow, because it is not a bow and arrow and you don't draw and hold!
We've all experienced draw creep with any type of bow where your string starts to creep forward from the physical strain on your arm and shoulder. That will never happen with a crossbow.
Many of us have blown a shot by peeking around the arrow rest with our bows. That will never happen with a crossbow because the bolt, (or bullet) comes out faster than any of us can react.
One thing for sure, the compound, recurve and, traditional bows all rely heavily on the strength, muscle control, fine motor skill, gross motor skill, depth perception, ability to control breathing, heart rate, and mental toughness of the archer. All three bows are still far more primitive, and provide a much greater fair chase experience then any crossbow. Not saying it to offend anyone, it's just indisputable.
That is wrong. its not that fast.
I am fine with hunters being divided, I want no part of mechanical archery, crossbow, or for that matter,90% let off compounds. I hope that both lead to shorter seasons for hunters to balance technology with exploitation. Something has to give.
I am not against crossbows, just not for the same length seasons in the face of technology increasing killing opportunity.
I am fine with hunters being divided, I want no part of mechanical archery, crossbow, or for that matter,90% let off compounds. I hope that both lead to shorter seasons for hunters to balance technology with exploitation. Something has to give.
I am not against crossbows, just not for the same length seasons in the face of technology increasing killing opportunity.
I am just getting tired of coming here and not being able to read about hunting in wisconsin without every second entry having something to do with xbows.
But I bet if forums like this were around when bows with wheels on them came out it would have been the same kind of debates.
I don't see the issue as done and over with. That is why I fought for and was able to accept a two year trial period where the crossbow season is the same as the archery season.
If it turns out that crossbows do not change the kill numbers enough to rile up the gun hunters, I guess I really wont have as much of an issue with them. I hunt private property and no skin off my back. However, I am concerned for the hunters who hunt public and for the archery season to remain in it's current form.
After thinking about it, it was the crossbow proponents who fought to have crossbows fully included in the archery season that raised the most concern in my mind. If they really thought that the crossbow would not have any detrimental effect as it relates to gun hunters (with additional bucks being killed), I probably would not have fought against them as hard as I did.
The fact that they did fight very hard to get the crossbow fully included in the archery season says more to me than anything else. It tells me those people were not only looking for an easy way to gain access to bucks during the rut, but that they also were not confident in themselves and their claims, which is why they tried to attach themselves to the archery season.
No, in my mind it is not over. There is a mechanism in place to allow department oversight over the separate season that we fought to establish. I prefer to let the crossbow survive and flourish on its own merits, or die due to a lack of. At this point only time will tell.
Best of luck!
Scary part about a 2 year trial is that it is not enough time for all the xbow wannabes to actually cough up the money to buy one. I am afraid that after 2 years things might not look too bad yet and this trial period could become much more permanent.
The other factor that could hold back the numbers is the lack of deer up north which might make the numbers look lower than they would have looked and that might also artificaly help the 2 year trial become permanent.
We all know that there is some really stupid legislation out there, for example setting a hard start date for wolf on Oct 15, way too early for prime fur and with 10X the number of licenses sold for the wolf quota hunters/trappers cannot afford to wait for prime fur.
Do you think the DNR cares about quality fur or revenue? If xbows result in a net revenue gain(Vertical and xbow licenses), xbow season will not be touched.
Antlerless tag fee hike from $2 to $12 and $20 was to add value to the doe again?
Follow the $$$$$ and You will have your answer as to motivation.
Same can be said for a rifle with a scope too. The rifle did not originally have a scope so maybe we should make rifleman be real rifleman and use iron sites.
I think just limiting crazy things like a magnified scope on an archery weapon would solve a lot of issues but thy wont EVER do it because many would not use them then and that would cost lots of people and the state loads of cash.
Fiber optic pins and a peep is far different than a magnified scope in my book. The difference between pins and a scope are worlds apart.
A vertical hunter did this in Wisconsin about 6 years ago. John Q. Public will not know the difference between weapons anyway. That's like saying a drunk driver used red wine vs. beer. Kind of like the press calling a poacher a hunter.
How does one mistaken a person for a deer? 2 legs vs. 4, one stands up right, etc. This may also come down to communication between hunters. We always say I will hunt here, you will be here, if one of us shoots something we communicate between text message, two-way radio, etc.
Be sure of your target and what is beyond - pretty much sums it up.
It is the guns fault when people murder others. Gotta blame a DUI on the car too.
The rifle is to blame in the attached pic.
My moneys on Wilbur!
I don't think Howatt was blaming crossbows directly. But with a lot more "bowhunters" in archery season and a lot of them using crossbows -- which I suppose are, by nature, a little easier to shoot yourself or your buddy with -- there will be more potential for accidents in the new "archery" season. Is that a fair statement, crossbow lobbyists?
The 2nd one was a post by me where a 12 year old girl going to her youth hunt was killed in the car when someone in the front seat accidentally discharged the weapon. She was in the back seat and was killed. Why the hell was the weapon loaded in the car to start with? RRRRRRR.....This kind of stuff is so tragic and also really bugs me when I hear it. It's people like those that give hunters who are responsible and practice safety at ever turn a bad name.
How does everyone feel about shooting (as opposed to hunting) a hapless deer munching-away at a corn pile?
LOL a reincarnation!
Great question for Ronny. It got him in some bad doo doo a couple of years ago.
Touche' Ronny. You've soiled yourself over and over following AW all around and commenting on every post he makes. You are like a stalker with him. I simply said there was a good question there for you ;).
Best off to just ignore the dufus....
Must have been an exceedingly difficult shot...
To bad he can't do his life over like he does with his Internet alias' ..
Too funny turkey hunter..really unbelievable funny..
