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I'm going to kill the first legal deer whatever that might be. And from the looks of the lack of food in the Cranberry, I'm going to kill the second with a bow, no matter the sex or size. Cause I'm likely not going to get one thanksgiving week. No different from the last several years is what I expect the results to be. I tend to stick does with my longbow and sometimes don't kill any buck with any weapon.

Whatever you do, enjoy and God's Blessings to all

I agree with Babysaph that both methods limit buck kill. But I don't agree that it will never happen in WV. Reason: turn on Outdoor Channel. Big antlers are in and will remain in as long as US has a huntable deer population. WV will eventually follow suit.

I know...it is hard to tell excactly on hoof. And a big 2.5 and a small 3.5 could look the same. So if it is a solid 3.5 it is fair game. You guys that have seen enough deer older deer know what I am talking about.

A one buck limit would be a HUGE step in the right direction.

CG - I like shooting does but I like to see headgear too. And I have no problem with shooting 2 bucks - I want both of them to be nice bucks. I don't want to have to spend a ton of money to go to another state to hunt. With one and done - there is nothing that prevents someone from shooting a small buck. Plus, how many of those good old boys (as JR says LOL) family members (who don't hunt) will start checking in a buck that they just happen to kill. Pa proved to me that one and done is not the miracle plan to have a huge buck behind every tree! And I have no problem with bringing the limit of 3 bucks down to 2 - but I think one and done is a total waste - when the WVBA worked so hard to get a 2 buck limit for us. There are a ton of things that could be done in WV to help with producing bigger bucks before going to a one and done program.

Do a one and done for non-residents - who use WV to fill their freezer.

Start some AR's

Shorten all the rifle seasons!

How many mid-west states are shotgun only for gun season?????

Those are just a few things off the top of my head....

Its always funny I have not got one person to ever answer why one and done never worked in Pa to produce bigger buck - it was there for years and the deer up there were smaller than deer here. They started AR's and now they are producing some really nice deer.

And yes they have one and done now along with AR's, but AR's were not put into place until like 10 years ago. For years they had just one deer and your done. It did not matter if the deer was a doe or buck - you kill one deer and you were done. My uncle and brother in law killed a lot of small deer up there during that period. I mean small size deer and bucks with pencil size in thickness racks and big enough to get 6 meals out of! Now they have become a little more liberal with harvesting does and they put the AR's in place.

Speaking of Ohio - having one and done but has it not been shotgun only gun season for years? How many bucks were not shot at because of the limitations of a shotgun??? How many bucks got wise from being shot at with a shotgun and were missed? Time will tell if it was the one & done that has helped produce those big bucks in Ohio or limitations with the weapons used. I hear they are allowing rifles to be used this year in Ohio. It will be interesting to see how this effects the deer of Ohio! I say those of you who hunt Ohio will be seeing less and less big bucks in Ohio in the future... JMO

I gotta agree with Babysaph on everything,...

Simple math says one and done lets more bucks walk for next year...and with everyone putting out food plots and such, well, in 5 years you would see an amazing turn around..

But,

The state of WV is not interested in quality, just quantity,,,quantity of the mighty $$$$$$$.

They will never change....So have at it boys and girls, shoot your 2 spikes and 1 basket rack 6 point and declare how good of a hunter you are...Just be sure to look in the camera and say" Give me a minute folks"..........LOL

How many guys do you know who shoot 3 bucks? I know none. I am sorry I like being able to have the chance to kill another buck instead of having to go to another state to do so. And I do not shoot spikes or really anything I consider a small buck - seems to me all of you guys thinking there are not nice bucks in WV need to look a little better. I see nothing wrong with a 2 buck limit.

All of you one and done guys - in the 4 bow only counties and the bigger bucks there - is it because its one and done or because of weapon limitation? Once again I will state PA had one and done for years and it did nothing - they implemented AR's and bigger bucks came about. All the mid-west states are they not shotgun only and have shorter gun seasons than WV?

You establish one and done in WV right now with the same weapons, length of rifle season and all you will get is loss of revenue to the DNR because nobody will buy the RB or RG stamps, a dip in the WV economy because a lot of WV hunters will go to other states to hunt for a second buck so they will spend money in diners and gas stations there, and then a bunch of guys who cannot afford to hunt another state will have their wives and children start tele-checking their deer in! There are a ton of other things that could be done to help grow bigger bucks here instead of decreasing hunting opportunity. The WVBA worked hard to get the extra bow tag I hate to see it thrown away by guys who have mythical visions of 160+ bucks behind every tree ...

And again I will ask you one and doners - is it because of one and done these other states have large bucks or because of AR's, shorter gun seasons, type of weapons allowed.

Now I am not saying one and done combined with some of the above mention things would not increase the number of bucks growing older but if you implement one and done right now and do not change to AR's, shotgun or bow only, shorten the gun season - then all you will do is decrease hunting opportunity and lose money for the dnr and the economy in WV. Again there is a bigger picture to look at.

I will ask one question: if the 4 bowhunting counties remained a 1 buck limit but they opened it up to rifles do you think you would still see the number of bigger bucks? I don't think you would see nearly the number of big bucks and then guys would stop going to hunt there and step by step things go down hill from there.

God Bless

I don't think WV as a whole is ready to drop from 3 to 1.

I think( as has been shown by 2 previous sportsmen surveys by 75% and 85%) that we are ready for a 3-2 limit.

Get a director that will work WITH the legislature and reduce the NR limit to one, and increase the NR fee.

I know there are not a lot of hunters that take 3 bucks, but too many shoot the first one they see then "trophy" hunt. Trouble is, there's not that many trophies to go around and they end up shooting another small buck.

If bowhunters want to kill 2 bucks they can, if gun hunters or MZ hunters want to kill 2 they can, but they both should have to kill a doe either before or after the first buck . 2 or 3 weapon hunters can kill 1 in each season .

It won't work as good or as fast as a 1 buck with antler restrictions would, but give it 5 years and see if things improve. If they do and hunters see that it is, then they more be more accepting of a 1 buck limit.

It seems to me to be a reasonable compromise ?

I applaud you on your efforts - on your farm that is really is great.

I normally harvest a buck and a couple does a year too. I like to be able to hunt the whole season and I like hunting bucks - tell me why it is wrong for me to want to be able to harvest 2 bucks?

I think it is great to say you must kill a doe before harvesting a second buck. Heck - what is wrong with saying your second buck must have 4 points to at least one side - a little AR? What about the two season hunter - are you saying choose one weapon and stick to it?

I really do think you guys are dreaming if you think one and done in WV is going to amount to huge bucks everywhere.

We have a bowhunting season that is 1/4 of the year and 3/4 of the year its out. Isn't it nice to be to have more hunting opportunity.

All I am saying there are more ways to get bigger bucks than going to one and done.

On your farm - one and done may work but up at Sleepy Creek it won't matter! After one guy tags out there will be another to shoot the buck that the first guy would have shot with his second tag. If you go to just one and done in WV, you need to go with AR's and other game management tool too for it to work. I think that is why one and done did not work in PA all those years because there are so many hunters. Now they added AR's to the equation and better doe management and it is working. I saying lets try a few of the other tools of game management first before going to one and done and I bet we would see more improvement instead of just going with one and done.... JMO

It took me several years to get the enhanced penalties for trophy deer. You just have to keep at it.

Again CG please explain to me that there would still be large bucks in the 4 bow only counties if they were to remain 1 buck only but open up to rifles????

I also have just been asking around the butcher when i take one in, but rarely do i get anyone to fess up that they do..

I also ask around about what they think we should do...and the majority of them wnat to keep it the way it is or add bucks ..LOL

That tells me that alot more people kill their 3 buck quota, and that WV will never decrease the limit.

I mean, make it 4 bucks, really?

hunting and trapping 519k 27,000 licenses fishing 1,501k 79,000 licenses antlerless 640k 64,000 licenses additional deer-gun 545k 26,000 licenses additional deer-bow 407k 19,000 licenses additional deer muzzle 51k 3,000 licenses sportsman package 3,031k 101,000 licenses jr. sportsman 85k 8,000 licenses bear damage 239k 24,000 licenses trout 946k 95,000 licenses conservation stamp 1059k 211,000 licenses

So I see that a $2.50 increase in a conservation stamp equals the additional deer gun stamps that we are sp worried about losing with a one buck limit. __________________

Good article about Pa AR:

http://www.northamericanwhitetail.com/land-management/huntingtactics_naw_0907_10/

Again I wish that one of you would answer my questions: Why did one and done not work in Pa for all those years before they implemented AR's?( and don't say because they have more hunters than WV - because again when you look at the percentages it is pretty much the same) Then what do you think would happen if you keep the one and done in the 4 bow only counties but allow rifles to be used now??? One and done is not the answer because young bucks still get killed.

Sleepy Creek gets hunted heavily along with most of our WMA - That young buck that you say - all those nasty old gamehog hunters would have shot but could not be shot because of the 1 buck limit - will just get killed by another hunter eventually during the season. To prevent that you must add AR's, shorter gun seasons, or weapons with limited range - something else besides one and done - because of the number of hunters out there that the young buck will sooner or later walk by.

Heck with the one and done way of thinking then we should stop shooting does because you are preventing her from having the button buck the following year! It makes no sense.... One and done does nothing to assure that young bucks make it to the next season.

I say you place in more areas with AR's, more areas of shotgun or bow only, shorten the gun season to a week and establish some sanctuary areas within our public land areas and we all would see bigger bucks running and you would not be lessening any hunting opportunities.

I totally agree with several others - hunting is tending to be a sport for those with money! Never thought I would see the day where something that was fought so hard to get (the RB tag and chance at a second buck) would want to be given up by so many! I totally agree that we could harvest too many bucks and I think 3 probably pushes the limit but really there cannot be a two buck limit?

In a perfect world, gun season would be 1 week with a 1 week doe season....This shooting them with a rifle for 4-6 weeks with some kind of doe season or 2 week gun season, etc....

WHY ON EARTH ARE WE ASKING FOR SHORTER SEASONS? I want as many days afield as possible.We just recently got a longer archery season so Why regress?

How would you like to live in Colorado where all deer is on draw, even for residents. Which means a lot of people don't get a deer tag, much less a buck tag every year? Or Arizona, where residents may wait 5 or more years to get a decent buck tag?

Now, I'm NOT advocating a draw or anything like that but would it really be that much of a hardship to lower the buck limit to 2?

I'm those counties that are at or above carrying capacity there has to be a way to lower the doe component of the herd while taking some pressure off the buck component, otherwise it will never work. The deer will never reach their potential because of lack of high protein quality food.

To those that are just unsatisfied and not knowing why: PA always had a one buck limit. Prior to the last ten or so years, you had to apply for doe tags but, you got one buck for sure with any weapon. The biggest influence in the bigger deer they now have is they drastically increased the doe harvest, and have a thriving timber industry. If you give deer a place to hide, you are not going to kill them very often

You can't do Indiana for $250 unless you can sprout wings and fly you and your gear there. Your gonna spend A $1000 by the time you get gas and pay to eat. If I'm wrong you need to go there every year since deer horns are so important. Once you start, be sure to keep us posted on the numbers of 150 inch deer you kill.

One and done will do little for our deer horns unless we shoot lots of does and put people back to work. Poaching is our problem, not hunting pressure. We have the greatest public hunting in this country. Our license cost is relatively cheap, we have lots of game, and we get to do it every year. Unlike lots of people all over this country that must draw tags that cost a dang car payment. Is that what you want or think is good for the health of hunting or the deer herd?

If we do this, our cost are going to triple. Leasing will reign, at exponential rates. And the poachers are still going to poach them. The thing is, there ARE more big deer here than most of you realize. I wander where all those 115 to 120 inch deer go once they get passed? Are you suggesting they are all getting killed?

1 and done is not the sole answer to the problems you say we have. And present a much different set of problems for the future of hunting than the small bucks you all complain about.

God Bless

Kentucky and Ohio are much closer with similar license cost.

Indiana was a one buck per each weapon but saw a great surge when they went to one buck regardless of weapon. Same with Kentucky.

Great deer sunday. Nice 8 points for sure. When you get to the 150 mark consistently, that most claim is the benchmark for being a big buck state, I'll say I'm wrong. Until then, I'll say those deer look like some I have killed right here. Some I say because I have killed larger right here in miserable WV. Not bragging or comparing, just making my point. They really are great trophies man so understand why I said what I just said. No one doubts it will help to a degree. We just seriously doubt it is the correct action for several reasons.

Kentucky hunting is going to be just like Southern WV. At least in the areas you can hunt without paying to do it. So why go? Ohio has some great public land hunting. But, just like here, you gotta go where they are. If you got a car that will do 600 plus miles on 90 bucks, (25 gallons), your way ahead of mine. Not everyone knows someone in Indiana to stay with or hunt with. Kudos to you for doing so but, once again, we seem to be talking apples and oranges. You suggest changing the regs for the masses while only considering your interest's for doing so. What suits you doesn't fit everyone

I'm a multiple weapons hunter and do most of my rifle hunting in an area that wont support a doe harvest with rifles. Am I supposed to give that up a tradition with my family and friends to pacify the horn hunters who live or hunt in areas that it would? Biologically, what are the pluses of doing it? We can't assume more does, to the amount needed, will be killed by enough hunters to matter. According to most posting here, everyone they know shoots three small bucks a year with few if any does. So, why would/should we do it?

Just saying what I feel and pointing out what is obvious to me. No disrespect meant in any of it. Once again, great trophies. Congratulations. You obviously earned them and are a successful hunter no matter where you hunt. God Bless

This has turned into a very good debate. Everyone has pretty much been polite - we just don't quite agree on some things. I will respond to a few things in detail tomorrow - been a long day and going to hit the sack.

Just two things:

SundaynWV - if you look at most of your states that produce larger bucks there gun season is much shorter then what WV has. You are sort of taking one of my arguments there - why do you want to take away hunting opportunities by saying I cannot kill 2 bucks? And I think the shoot a doe before a second buck is great and have know problem with it. Heck I have done it way before it became a regulation.

JR - why do some of us season hunters want to kill more than one buck you ask - why do you go out west to kill a trophy buck? Why do you kill a spike buck? Why do you not limit yourself to just does? Of course I will go back to a point I was trying to make yesterday - why shoot a doe who may be carrying one of next year button bucks????

Again one a done is not going to work well here in WV unless you implement a lot more game management tools and want to pay a lot more money. There are other ways to achieve bigger bucks other than one and done. I have listed some....

And you could have kept one and done in PA and shot all the does you want - but without AR's allowing little bucks the chance to get bigger than the other two would have failed. Best alternative is balance the herd and let grow by implementing AR's.

This has turned into a very good debate. Everyone has pretty much been polite - we just don't quite agree on some things. I will respond to a few things in detail tomorrow - been a long day and going to hit the sack.

Just two things:

SundaynWV - if you look at most of your states that produce larger bucks there gun season is much shorter then what WV has. You are sort of taking one of my arguments there - why do you want to take away hunting opportunities by saying I cannot kill 2 bucks? And I think the shoot a doe before a second buck is great and have know problem with it. Heck I have done it way before it became a regulation.

JR - why do some of us season hunters want to kill more than one buck you ask - why do you go out west to kill a trophy buck? Why do you kill a spike buck? Why do you not limit yourself to just does? Of course I will go back to a point I was trying to make yesterday - why shoot a doe who may be carrying one of next year button bucks????

Again one a done is not going to work well here in WV unless you implement a lot more game management tools and want to pay a lot more money. There are other ways to achieve bigger bucks other than one and done. I have listed some....

And you could have kept one and done in PA and shot all the does you want - but without AR's allowing little bucks the chance to get bigger than the other two would have failed. Best alternative is balance the herd and let grow by implementing AR's.

I know many people that kill 2-3 scrub bucks a year in WV.

By letting them do it 3 times it affects those of us who would rather shoot a bigger buck. I'm not even talking 150, I'm talking 130-140.

I know they have their rights , but what about the rights of those that want more mature deer?

The difference is the majority of them wouldn't even think of picking up their bow for a small buck. She has killed several good bucks but routinely passes up 130 bucks.

The answer is so simple, but so hard to do . Just don't shoot a buck because it's a buck . Give it time to mature.

It's sad to say but I don't think the majority of hunters of WV have the will power to do it themselves. To have quality hunting the DNR will have to restrict buck hunting somehow. By numbers, size, or both.

WV mountaineer , I don't know where you go but your the only person I have ever heard from that routinely see big bucks outside of the archery only counties. I'm 57 and have seen less than a handful of 130 bucks outside of the bow counties

People in WV kill a six point because that is all they have seen their entire life of hunting.

I can think of roughly 2 deer I have seen while hunting in WV that would go over 125. I've lost count in Indiana and Ohio.

Sunday, the 150 came from Gobbler last time we had this debate. And Indiana has a great deer herd for sure. You got some great deer there so be proud of them.

I would go to 2 buck limit without much argument if it would stop there but, it will not stop there. Because the problem's causing a lot of you guys to see a lack of these deer won't be fixed by a two buck limit statewide either. So, you'll just want more.

We could go on and on. Your minds are made up. So is mine until shown it is the wrong way of thinking. God Bless you all and good hunting.

We blame the DNR for offering 3 buck tags. I agree, part of it is their fault, but we don't have to buy or use them.

Everytime I go into Rite-aid I pass by the cigarette and liquor aisle. But just because they are there for sale dosen't mean I have to buy and use them.

WVmountaineer you may be right about AR's statewide and some areas not getting enough pressure but making it statewide would make it easier to enforce and easier for hunters to know about it instead of trying to figure out which areas are and which are not. And I agree that AR's are not the only answer but I do believe it is the best choice out of all others There is nothing to say that 1 and done will allow our bucks to mature - it is even possible that 1 and done will not even reduce the buck kill - it all depends on the number of hunters and how lucky they are!

We have too many hunters in this state to make one and done be possible to work. And some of you say "no that isn't so"! Let me explain why I think this - Just because one hunter shoots a young buck and then is out of commission and should not shoot another - on most of our WMA here in the eastern part of WV - there are so many hunters that the next young buck that the hunter who is now out of contention to shoot - well there is another hunter just down the ridge who will now shoot that young buck - that young buck has not learned enough to basically not get shot. One of the reasons I prefer AR's over 1 and done.

Speaking of shooting young deer - I hate the early doe seasons and to be honest with you I hate the early bow season. I would have preferred if we were going to lengthen the bow season to do it at the end of the season. I have only hunted one day so far this bow season - the first day and could have shot a 6 or 7 different does but each one had fawns still with spots! I don't know - can we not let momma stay with the fawns thru till the end of Thanksgiving Week? Plus I hate hunting in the heat. Let momma deer do a little teaching to the fawns that first week of rifle season - then go at them the second week.

I do like the idea of being able to shoot two deer in one day now. I think it would allow the state to get the over-populated areas back to a better carrying capacity. Those of us who do shoot does - then could buy an extra doe or two and use them in one if we only have one day to hunt during that season.

JR we are not wasting our breath here - I have heard several people state on here that there are DNR people who check this site out so you never know an idea might be heard and received at some point - and from my take on most on here I don't think there are any who shoot 3 spikes each season. Just those of us who like the chance at 2nd buck with our choice of weapon.

As a kid my father and i backpacked 5 miles into cranberry wilderness and would rarely see a deer hunting a whole week. That scenario leads one to think totally different than where i live and hunt today in mid ohio valley.

But that's not really the point. It's OK to do something legal, but wish it were different. Back when the national speed limit was 55, I drove 55 but wished it were higher.

Plus this is getting to the point that I was making that it will have to be the state to make the change. Even if 10% of the hunters by self control only kill 1 buck, you still have the other 90 % not doing it and statistically it really dosen't matter. You may have a farm or small region that's big enough it might help but statewide it dosen't make a difference.

I've also never killed more than 1 buck a year but can't really say it is because I wouldn't if I had the opportunity. I was just curious who might be placing personal limits on themselves.

You proved my point with that 5 year trial. 5 years isn't long enough to get viable, dependable results, statewide. And when it doesn't, you'll just scream one and done. God Bless

1. If you remember I said a one buck limit would be best, but I thought a 2 was reasonable.

2. I put out 5 years because I have been told and have read multiple times that 5 years is the minimum amount of time that would be required to obtain any useful data. If you want to make it 10 then that is fine.

My main objection is that you are putting words in my mouth as to what my opinion would be after obtaining that data.

I know as bowhunters we don't like the early rifle season but it has pretty much been proven it's better for the herd. Taking a doe in Oct. Rather than Dec. leaves 2 months more food in the woods for other deer. Plus less does during the rut leads to bucks having to travel more to find does making th more huntable.

I can see the point of shooting does early will improve rutting behavior and make it easier on the herd. I can also see shooting does earlier will promote better habitat and in theory make winter survival rate better.

Also read that shooting does earlier will promote more competition between bucks causing fight injuries and higher mortatily rates of buck or injuries. LOL Confusing isn't it?

I think the earlier season will promote higher turn out of hunters could be bogus with a lot of hunters. I really don't know of many guys who have been hunting because of the high temps here lately. And I know several guys who shot does there several years ago during the early bow and muzzleloading seasons - who said they would never hunt for does early again because of not only the heat but they had fawns running around bawling because momma was shot. One guy said he even had a fawn come in and try to nurse the dead mom!

Gobbler I saw several bioligist say buck fawns staying in home range was not bad but another said it was not good. I sort of think this way of thinking is still in a very early stage and only time will tell. I won't put anyone down for hunting early or shooting does with fawns - for me I will wait until later in the fall to shoot a doe with fawn. May shoot one without fawns here early if I get the chance at one.

I think I would like to see WV or any state do some research - maybe do a couple of different deer management plans in several regions and see what produces the best results instead of going by on just theory. Not cutting the DNR down here - just saying try several different plans and get the research in.

Less does would help most of WV. We had a late doe season. It didn't work. Biologist made changes and we ahve an earlier one. I applaud them.

And I would not be so quick to say the late season did not work - maybe it was how it was implemented in the whole scheme of things....

Gobbler I know you will know this and I guess I am just to lazy to look it up - when were the majority of does harvested in WV last year?

JR - I really don't think you are wasting your breath - I think you will see a 2 buck limit here in WV. I also think we will see crossbows allowed to be used during bow season soon. I just wish that we could get a crossbow season and not included it with bowseason. JMO

But anytime they have a new season or change seasons it takes hunters a year or two to adjust. We'll know in the next couple of years which one they prefer.

5 years wasn't long enough in PA to see major changes. I read a poll somewhere along that time that a vast majority of PA hunters were dismally supportive of their changes by then. By year ten, it was the majority that was supportive of the changes. Just speculating about it here but, see no reason it would be different, given the variables that are causing it here are a lot of the same, in the heavily hunted areas of that state.

Once again, I apologize if I offended you. Speculation is being thrown around by everyone here. Including you. So, I saw no harm in doing the same to you. God Bless

No problem, I don't mind being questioned in the here and now, just not 5 years in the future! LOL we're good!

In an ideal area, the buck to doe ratio should be 1:1 or ever 2 does:1 buck....Now i think we could all agree that is not the case here in WV.....At best mayb 4-5 does per buck...

Now you can legally kill 3 bucks and some parts 3 does....That makes no sense, you want to shoot 2-3 does per buck to improve the herd?

1 buck and done would help that out...1 buck, then shoot your limits on does....bigger, healthier herd, not mention bigger buck...

I just dont see it...I know when i was a younger hunter, i would always kill my limit of young bucks and i thought that was something.....But to do it now in my 40's, i just dont get it...

Now if you are killing 3 big, mature bucks.....You the man...

BUt i still say 1 and done will work, to me its just simple math....more buck living another year only get bigger

Yes, to kids a buck is a buck. However, when a child goes fishing and catches his first little 3 inch sunfish, do you put it on a stringer because its his first fish or do you explain that their are larger fish out their for harvesting?

One and done did not work in PA - again PA producing bigger bucks now is because of better population management and the dreaded AR's!

I know this will get a few of you stirred up but as to AR's - why not say 15 years old and younger can harvest a younger buck - if we are so concerned about them getting a buck and all over 15 have to shoot a more mature buck (however the requirement would be)?

LOL gobbler you better be glad I don't wear my emotions on my sleeve or I might have gotten irritated over your comment! ROFL I still think it would be a blast to sit around a campfire with ya, buddy!

I have seen what one and done does when you do not implement the other policies that are need to go along with it. So you guys will not convince me that implementing one and done will work in WV without putting in other policies that will protect young bucks from being shot - it just won't work guys - you all need to read more than just the first couple of chapters in the wildlife management books. LOL

FYI, if the herd was so balanced down there in the 4 county area, you guys would be killing more big bucks. But, unless you don't post them here, your not. Either that or the big bucks are eluding you there. You choose. I personally believe it is a combination of both but, I'm just one of those guys. :^)

In 2012, gun hunters shot more bucks than does in WV. However, it must be noted that the deficiency in doe harvest came from districts that did not have doe days. Meaning, the areas does could be shot, they were shot in Equal numbers. Cited here.

"http://www.deerharvestresults.com/wvirginia.htm"

Archery and muzzleloader harvests are not broken down by sex. So we are just guessing. So we will leave it out. What's the correct statewide management tool to implement based on these numbers? BTW, it was the latest info available.

God Bless

Why? because they dont want the attention draw to their specific area....

Big antlers are the symptom of a healthier deer herd.

Equal numbers of buck/doe kill doesnt fix the lopsided ratio. It will eventually, but in districts 1 and 6 there should be more does killed than bucks.....like 40-60% more. That is according to our very own DNR:

http://www.wvdnr.gov/Hunting/FundDeerMan.shtm

I see no evidence in my observation that suggest the herd is anywhere near balanced or better than surrounding county's. Of course, mileage will vary. But, when in the woods cruising, or driving to and fro, I see about 10 does to every little buck. I rarely see a big buck down there until mid November on. Honestly, I wasn't looking to get into that. I was just wandering how you make the statement the herd is balanced based on the pics you have posted.

My point is all but the truly dedicated aren't going to kill them regularly anywhere, even in the largest, longest running big buck management area in the lower 48. They are proven to be WILEY no matter where they live. God Bless

For me I would love to see:

1- 2 and thru for residents and one and done for NR 2- AR's for at the very least the 2nd buck 3- a doe b4 second buck 4- and b4 it gets lumped in with bow season - a crossbow season for a week or two just like with the muzzleloader.

wish list would be for a few more bow only counties or at least some trophy zones put in places through out the whole state - so we all would not have to head to one of the 4 only counties. As you can tell I am a home-body! LOL

But this thread was about who would limit themselves to one and done...so I don't want to get off topic

If you have 100 does

10 bucks

Your ratio is 10:1.

Hunting season comes. You kill 55 does and 8 bucks. By the fawn dropping time you lost and additional 5 does and 1 buck. You are left with:

40 does

1 buck

You birth 60 fawns at a 1:1 sex ratio (30 does, 30 bucks)

You now have:

70 does

31 bucks

2:1 for practical purposes.

A much better ratio and it only takes a few seasons of dutiful doe harvests, to get it back in line really well.

The answer to our problems are good habitat and adequate doe harvests. Those are personal decisions. How do you regulate that?

God Bless

How do you regulate personal decisions? Good question. To kill 7:1 doe to buck ratio takes time and effort and most people are not wildlife managers.....they just want to go out and shoot a buck.

How do you regulate the personal decision to wear a seatbelt? How do you regulate personal decision to not text while driving? You can have ad campaigns stating the reason why you should wear a seatbelt or not text while driving, but nothing is more effective than law: click it or ticket.

I am in no way comparing someone killing three bucks to texting while driving. Im just making the point that if the dnr is wanting to change the doe to buck ratio then they need to change the regulations. They increased the doe limit for some time now....they now need to lower the buck limit.

Ok so I do not get to shoot a second buck - what prevents my neighbor who was unsuccessful up to this point from not shooting that buck? Isn't the buck hunter success rate still well below 20 or 30%? So with one and done - what keeps bucks protected from being killed by the unsuccessful hunters up to that part of the season?

I just read a report commissioned by the WV DNR in 2010 - that 50% of WV deer hunters go home empty handed. Now that is deer hunters not buck hunters because the study went on does and bucks harvested - so I would think that the percentage of buck hunters that went home empty handed is even higher. The percentage of hunters taking 2 deer (again not bucks - but deer) was 13% and the number taking 3 deer was 6% (again how much of the 6% were all bucks?). I saw where in 2012 someone said there were more bucks killed than does but from what I saw 2013 it was pretty much even I believe there were 300+ more does killed than bucks.

So once again - how can implementing a one and done be such a big buck protection plan? Ok so 19% of our hunters are killing more than one deer - how much of the 19% are bucks? I would say it would be a safe bet to say it is 9.5% or less are extra bucks being killed. And this would not even account for those bucks saved by not being killed by an extra tag of one hunter but would still get killed by an unsuccessful hunter up to that point of the season and to be truthful I think that would be high (like 50 to 70 percent likely that the buck would still get killed one way or another but that is just a guess)!

I believe I read that the buck kill during the buck season was 57000 - so I am sure there were several thousand more bucks killed during the bow and muzzleloading seasons - so probably 65000 to 67000 bucks total were killed last year would be a good guess? I don't know - guess we can never know for sure of the exact number - so if we go by 10% of hunters harvest an extra buck that is 6500 to 6700 bucks were killed by the extra tag. That just does not seem like a big number to me. So again - I ask how does implementing a one and done allow for a ton more bigger bucks or heck even more bucks of any size????? Once again - this doesn't even factor in the bucks saved from a one buck limit but would be shot anyways by another hunter.

Now I will take it a step farther - lets implement AR's - just for turds and giggles - lets say it is 4 points to one side. How many of those 65000 or 67000 bucks killed last year had 4 points on one side. I am going to say 50% had less than 4 points on one side but my mind says it was probably even higher that there was more than 50% being smaller bucks. But lets use 50%, so now 50% of 65000 to 67000 - if my math serves me right that would be 32,500 to 33,500 additional bucks running around. Now I know my figures are not perfect by any means but I don't think they are ludicrous either....

Now I am not saying that AR's only for bigger bucks - I am saying that to me AR's seems like a better alternative to go with then a one buck limit to increase the percentage of bucks making it to the next season.... if I am wrong someone please explain how..... I am all ears

An unsuccessful hunter is that, an unsuccessful hunter. You can't just make them successful to add to your argument.

The one and done is a self-fulfilling act. Once people see larger bucks, they are more willing to pass on even the basket racked eight pointers.

The fact is that a one buck limit is a silent AR for many people. Having that one buck limit puts your spikes, three points, and four points off limits to many hunters who would otherwise shoot them.

The truth is, either a one buck limit or ARs, or APRs will benefit the herd of West Virginia. It is impossible to say that going from three to one buck a year will not help WV.

Sundaywv - I totally agree with what someone else stated on here that one and done would reduce some of the bucks being killed because there are guys who shoot a small buck first and then go after a nicer buck - years ago I did that - I would like to say I have matured some. So now if one and done goes into effect some of those hunters may not shoot the young deer and hold out for the bigger - but I am here to tell you that yes that younger buck will continue to make a foolish mistake and walk by another hunter who will shoot him. And if you don't understand that then you do not know wv hunters very well!

One and done will not work alone and it will not work all that great with population control. Because there will still be a majority of young bucks being killed. Go look at some of the studies PA has put out. When they had just one deer and done in place - 80% of their buck harvest was yearling bucks! After AR's were put in place the survival rate of young buck hugely increased and those young deer became edcucated.

JR - you are right it is simple math - go look at the surveys and research done by both WV on multiple tag kills and PA's one and done on one and done before AR's were put in place. 80% of the buck harvest was yearlings with one and done!!!!!!!

Guys there is a bigger picture out there. You have to look at the whole pie instead of just a piece of it.

I will be the first to admit AR's are not the sole answer but it does not take a brick to fall on my head to realize that one and done is not the only answer. And if you look at the numbers there are not a whole bunch of people who make use of the extra tags so you one and doner's are looking at a drop in the buck if you think you will see a major difference.

It will never be possible but I would bet that if you have one area where you implement one and done and another area you have a 2 buck limit with AR's (heck I will even say a 3 buck limit with AR's) then the multiple buck area with AR's will produce more and better bucks every single time!

So you say well make it one and done with AR's - I say once again if you look at the number of deer killed with the multiple tags the harvest number is just a drop in the bucket and won't make an extreme difference. So allow the hunter to get two bucks which gives more hunting opportunity and more revenue to the dnr and the whole local economy....

So one and done may amount to allowing a couple thousand bucks to survive but AR's has the potential to allow for 35,000 to 40,000 yearling bucks to make it to their 2nd birthday!!! That is according to PA and I think our numbers follow pretty close to theirs... Me - I like that 35,000 to 40,000 additional bucks running around for the next season over a couple thousand any day of the week! And I would still get to shoot a second buck if I would choose to do so in my home state and not get more frequent flier miles like you and gobbler! Rofl but in your alls favor you get to see some beautiful country!

Where are you getting your numbers? I am fairly good at internet research and am not finding anything on additional stamp usage, multiple buck kills by a single hunter, etc.

Just got home and I will search again for it.

CHARLESTON, W.Va. -- In West Virginia, hunters who kill a second turkey or bear in a single season are said to be "tagged out," meaning they've reached the legal bag limit and can't kill any more.

Deer hunters face a much more daunting task. To tag out, they'd have to kill 10 deer, a number so large most hunters don't try to approach it.

A survey commissioned by the state Division of Natural Resources showed that only 1 percent of state-resident deer hunters - roughly 1,580 people - kill as many as six whitetails in a season. Percentages of hunters who kill seven to 10 deer are so low they don't even register, although the DNR's Chris Ryan believes they might exist.

"There likely were a few people [who kill that many], but not enough to show up in the percentages," said Ryan, the agency's game management services supervisor.

The survey showed that in 2010, the year in which the survey was conducted, 49 percent of all deer hunters went home empty-handed. Twenty-seven percent killed one whitetail, 13 percent killed two, 6 percent killed three, and 2 percent killed four or five.

On average, a West Virginia deer yields about 35 pounds of venison. A hunter who managed to fill all 10 of his license tags would end up with roughly 350 pounds of meat.

Ryan said it's possible - highly unlikely, but theoretically possible - for a hunter to put in the freezer even more venison than that.

"The 10-deer limit is only for the major West Virginia deer seasons," he explained. "Our season regulations allow hunters to take three deer during the archery season, three during the antlerless season, two during the buck season and two during the muzzleloader season.

"But the season regulations don't take into account special 'managed' hunts such as urban deer hunts, hunts on state parks, hunts on the National Radio Astronomy Observatory, or the youth/handicap season."

- See more at: http://www.wvgazette.com/Outdoors/201311020095?page=2#sthash.BIu6Yc7V.dpuf

I think I did see where it said that there were slight increases from the several years previous to 2010 - so I guess wv hunters are getting better at harvesting more than one deer per year.

Again - from the research and personal observation - one and done just does not seem worth it to me and there seems to be much better ways to have more bucks make to the next the season.

I mean, I could take a survey and show you just the opposite...

I cant believe that you think that very few people kill that many deer. Think of all the deer that aren't checked in..for every buck killed, I would hate to even guess how many are killed and not checked..I guess they cant afford the $20 tag

Guess you don't believe PA research that said 80 % of the buck harvest was yearling bucks when they had one and done but no AR's. AR's reduced that number because it actually protects young bucks from being harvested.

I know one year isn't scientific. I know a count other than total tags could be flawed. But, are we to believe all the three buck killers just didn't participate?

A formal freedom of info request could provide enough info to make it scientific. HUMMMMMM? I think I have a new task to tackle. I'll see if it is possible tomorrow. God Bless

However, the percentages are based on the number of hunters....not on the number of bucks killed. You said the survey and one and done would only have the opportunity of saving 6,500 bucks....that is incorrect.

The article states 1%, or ~1,580 hunters....so using 158,000 deer hunters in calculation:

13% of hunters killing 2 deer result 20,540 ADDITIONAL deer 6% of hunters killing 3 deer result 18,960 ADDITIONAL deer 2% of hunters killing 4.5 deer result 11,060 ADDITIONAL deer killed 1% of hunters killing 6 deer result 7,900 ADDITIONAL deer killed Totals 58,460 ADDITIONAL deer that are killed after hunters have killed one deer.

Assuming 50% of the ADDITIONAL deer are bucks, then that is 29,230 bucks that walk.

I don't understand why you have so much heartburn when folks say they know people who kill three bucks....just because you don't know anyone. The data to me says differently.

And I disagree with those who say that the yearling or small buck that the now selective hunter under 1 and done is going to go easily through the rest of the season and won't get shot by another hunter - just because we have so many hunters in WV.

I know we say that it is just not right to require young hunters to abide by AR's but why can we not say not for 15 years old and younger?

Thanks for pointing that out. I will be the first to admit when I am wrong - but now I am really confused by the numbers.

1- Only 158,000 hunters? I went back and searched and most others put the number of people who hunt WV at anywhere from 250,000 to 400,000. I forget the exact numbers but they had it broken down between resident Licenses, resident landowners and NR licenses. So I have no clue on the number. I may try to call DNR myself here soon to see what they think the numbers are.

2- I actually have higher numbers then what you have for multiple deer killed. If you go by 1 percent = 1580 hunters then I have 13% = 20,540 hunters who killed 2 deer which would be 41,010 deer. Then 6% hunters = 9,480 X3(deer) = 28,440 and then 2% hunter = 3160x4(deer) = 12,640 deer killed. Then when you add in the 27% who killed one deer 27x1580=42660 hunters and deer. The total number of deer killed comes to almost 135,000 deer total. only problem with this is the DNR in their deer harvest numbers says that there were only 105,000 deer killed in 2010... LOL

Again it has become too confusing now that I delve into it and not look at things on my phone. I plan to call the DNR and see if I can get numbers and percentages from them directly.

Again thank you for pointing out they said percentage was based on hunters - I looked at the numbers and just assumed it had to be deer kills because I have always heard the number of hunters is much higher than 158,000 - I will be interested in finding out how many people actually hunt in WV. Heck whenever I hunted up on Sleepy Creek during rifle season I would have bet there was 150,000 hunters just there! LOL

As to having heartburn - no I don't have it - to me it is just shocking that there are that many killing 3 bucks and they are mainly spikes and small deer.

To your number 1 point: I struggled with that too. Most references to number of deer hunters in WV are 300,000 to 325,000. The article states "state resident" deer hunters. But if the number was 325,000, the number of deer being killed is too many after using the percentages for success....even for the early 1990's.

Number 2 point: I took away the first deer that the hunters would harvest (one and done assumption). So for the hunters that killed two, I only counted their second. For hunters killing 3, I counted their 2nd and 3rd deer...etc.

If you get a chance to talk to DNR, please share what you find out. We have a more serious problem than deer herd ratio IF we only have 158,000 deer hunters. thnx

Yes, I agree that if PA allowed 2 bucks more bucks would probably get killed but would the number be extreme? I don't know for certain if it would be very many because it would be older bucks that would have to be killed because you have protected younger buck.

I know you guys feel one and done is the answer - it is not the answer if it is just one and done. All I am saying is AR's could possibly appease a majority of hunters because we could possibly still harvest two bucks and protect our young bucks.

I don't know if 80% of the wv buck harvest is yearlings or not - but I bet it is pretty darn close to that. So I believe the number of bucks killed with the gun was something like 57,000 in 2013 and that does not take into account bucks killed with bow or muzzleloaders. I think in another post I said lets say 67,000 and I am sure it is probably more than that. If you use the same percentage as PA (the reason I use PA is I think it compares more to WV then any other state) 67000 x .80 = 53,600 young bucks not being killed! Lets lower the percentage to 60% - 67000 X .60 = 40,200. I don't know that seems like a lot of bucks making it to their second birthday now.

To me - AR's sound so much better with a 2 buck limit. You protect alot of young bucks for the following year and you do not take away hunting opportunity. And again - if we say 15 years old or younger hunters can shoot any buck - how many would that amount to? I would think not a large percentage.

Maybe my way of thinking is not right but I just think that with AR's and a 2 buck limit - there will not be as many people killing a second buck because: 1- the buck has to be an older buck and 2- quite a few would place a limit for the second to be bigger than the first (not all hunters would but I think some would. But in return with one and done only - you will still have a ton of wv hunters that will shoot a spike or younger buck just to kill a buck. Call me crazy but that is the way I see it. Again explain how this way of thinking is wrong? And yes I agree you put AR's and one and done together and there would be more bigger bucks running around - when I weigh what the figures would be I just don't think it would save a ton of big bucks from being killed and it just limits hunting opportunity. That is why I say allow 2 bucks but make it with AR's for both bucks with an exception for young hunters.

After going to DNR Commission meetings for about 5 years I think there is a chance to reduce the limit to 2 in the near future. I don't think AR would have a snowballs chance in xxxx of passing.

Just my opinion based on listening to the Commission meetings for several years.