Court orders tribal night deer case re-o
Wisconsin
Court orders tribal night deer case re-opened
Here is a simple solution.. Eliminate hunting hours for all...
Instead of the Tribes being allowed exclusive night rights... and couple that with all the cabin shooting.. After hours hunting and flat out poaching... just eliminate hunting hours and allow hunting 24/7 for all.. at least it would be far opportunity for all ..as opposed to the big deer being stolen at night by poachers.. let everyone hunt at night... why not..??
You tolerate feeding/baiting /training deer like farm cows with a pile of corn... may as well hunt when the deer are eating the pile.. hour after dark..!!! Just think of all the big buck hunters there would be if everyone could legally hunt all night???
As opposed to just the poachers and tribes
I will only support this when the indians stop harpooning my spiritual brother the walleye.
"“All that can be said is that on the present record there is scant reason to think that safety concerns justify forbidding Indians to hunt deer at night in the thinly populated (by human beings) northern part of Wisconsin,” Judge Richard Posner wrote for the panel."
I think the (by human beings) needs to be replaced with (by deer).
"The Chippewa’s hunts would be tightly regulated with shooting plans, he said, "
Tightly regulated - like when they shot an elk two years running without permission?
This is still nothing but whining over the wolf hunt.
I understand that many do not like what rights Chippewas have. I am not saying I do either. We must also remember that the American Government in the 1837 and 1842 treaties agreed to the terms when seeking to populate the northern portions of Wisconsin. Signed and agreed to, in negotiations, the treaties that are no different than treaties we sign with other sovereign nations such as Russia, China, or Canada. We cannot just break these treaties. The United States government entered into these agreements with no limitations other that granting what was asked for when the United States government asked to negotiate. The right to hunt fish and gather as long as the sun rises and the sun sets. That the courts have placed any restrictions on the treaty rights has surprised me. The agreement is left totally open ended by the United States government as to how these rights could be executed.
The solution to this problem is to make their Casino tribal only and no tribal member can enter or rewrite the treaties to either give up the hunting/fishing rights for the rights for non-tribal members to participate in the casino enterprise. Money is the great equalizer.
So, did the treaties really say (or hint) that tribal members would have more hunting and gathering rights than white man would? I think not, so every exception that the courts grant to tribal members should apply equally to all other state residents. No more, no less.
In the treaties, the Chippewa Indians were granted the right to hunt fish and gather as long as the sun rises and the sun sets. No limitations. I have studied and taught Native American treaty rights for 23 years. The original discussion centered around that the Chippewas were entitled to 100% of all harvest. I have taken several courses dealing with these issues, taught by lawyers and Tribal members on both sides of the issue. I have even been in a course in which one of the two Chippewa Nation members that were arrested in the original spearfishing incident lectured and taught. (he is a college professor now) By the way, that original incident was a set up, in which the arresting Warden and officers were called and told what the two men were doing three times before the warden even believed them showed up with back up to arrest them. They were convicted in county court and began the appeal and rulings in the Doyle courts, then Crabb courts. And in response to your last statement, courts rule on the treaties, not whether there is equality or not, for non-Chippewa nation members. These treaties also only apply to the Chippewa nations which extend into Minnesota and Michigan. Not other states or Native American Nations. Whether there are more rights or not is not an issue. Also by the way, the Chippewas are also exploring as to whether their rights extend in Canada and northern Ontario also. A part of the Chippewa Nation.
"In 2012, Chippewa tribes in Wisconsin justified their push for night deer hunting by citing the state's use of sharpshooters at night to control chronic wasting disease in deer and the Legislature's 2012 approval of night hunting for wolves.
The next year, the Legislature made night wolf hunting illegal starting with the 2013 season. Night hunting of wolves is not legal in Wisconsin at this time."
A basic rule of hunting safety is know your target and what is beyond.
All men are created equal...unless your Indian..Latino..African.. The rest are suppose to tow the load...
Equality means equality... anyone supporting special treaty rights.. govt freebies .. etc... is promoting inequality ..
Screwball, thanks for the information that is fact based instead of emmotion based. One thing though is that the USA, and other countries, break treaties all the time. When a treaty is outdated one of the signers will often not honor it anymore.
Zinger thank you, I am not disagreeing with any of the statements above trust me. The one difference with this treaty though is it is with a nation inside our own country. Thus it is to be settled in the courts. In dealing with foreign countries (out of the US)they really cannot sue us within our own court systems. In this treaty the current result is due to negotiations in which both sides did give up things, though the nonnatives gave up way more to receive 1/2 of the allowable harvest.
Antler whore I understand your frustration but since we recognize Native Americans (of which most of us are born here) as sovereign nations they have dual citizenship. Thus we are all created equal, but we are not equal under the law. Equal does not mean fair.
Apparently equal does not mean equal either.
It was said by the founding fathers: All men are CREATED equal. After that they are changing and not necessarily equal. In other words, equal at birth but not forever. This is in much of their writings and can be found if you read history.
"One thing though is that the USA, and other countries, break treaties all the time"
I believe Tom Maulson even said "agreements are broken all the time" when the Indians shot the first elk against our DNR's wishes. Of course, they shot another one this year too.
Our native American friends have been hunting ay night for a long time. Prefered caliber is 22 magnum.
Let'em hunt at night, they 'll be too busy to spear 40 yeat old Muskies.
One such "hunter" as he calls himself baits and shoots with a lights at night. Has several Boone and Crockets with this method. Due to as he claims noone hunts on the res but me. He gained his tribal roll membership in the past ten years.
I seem to remember there being something in those treaties about the president being able to change the terms at their will. Maybe it was just one of those I read it on the internet so it must be true things.
"Let'em hunt at night, they 'll be too busy to spear 40 year old Muskies. "
If only it was that simple. They spear Muskies through the ice and as part of their annual Walleye slaughter. As an avid Musky fisherman who has practiced C&R for 40+ years with the exception of 1 Musky I could not successfully release as a kid, that one (Musky spearing) really draws my ire.
Even on private open MFL lands
The list of restrictions, IF followed, means it's pretty unlikely many deer will fall to a tribal member's bullet at night.
In fact, poachers — non-tribal and tribal — likely shoot far more deer at night than this "hunt" will take. That said, I don't like it either. But the drama over this is really overkill.
"""But the drama over this is really overkill.""" REALLY!!!!!!!! Naz you are a writer why don't you take a drive up to the Springstead area and interview some of the residents and report if they think its "" drama over this is really overkill"". They have been putting up with night hunting for years. Even when caught there are no or very little consequences and now it is getting worse since this has been brought back to the lime lite. Drive up and ask !!! The residences of northern Wis. are second rate citizens.
Well, it's something to think about when your walking out of your bow stand to your truck at night. I know it happens illegally, but if made legal, your chances will go up of having an incident.
they speared a lake in oneida county sunday nite. anyone hear what they got? i heard they had not reached their quota this spring so they were going to try fall spearing.
Arrow, knew that comment would draw a response. My point is this: did you read the list of restrictions? IF those are followed — and they should be, or it's poaching (which already happens with both tribal and non-tribal hunters) — why is that any more of a big deal than poaching? How many deer do you think they'll kill? Right now, they kill far less than one percent of the number of deer shot each year in Wisconsin, and only about three percent of the northern harvest many years. Is that significant? I said I didn't like it. But again, a dead deer is a dead deer. Is a deer shot with a rifle and light in the field at night by a tribal member any deader than one shot with a crossbow at a lighted, baited site behind a cabin by a white man? For that matter, how many deer do archers arrow after legal hours each year? We can hear the gun shots well after hours come the nine-day, so we know that's real. We can't hear the arrow shots, but it happens.
"" why is that any more of a big deal than poaching?"" No one said poaching wasn't as big of deal. And yes your liberal comment should draw a response. Its just another right given to a group of US citizens that others can't have.
If night hunting isn't dangerous then why do we have hunting hours at all and our ending hours are ridiculous ? We can't night hunt wolves ? Lets all be given the right to hunt at night if its no big deal and safe in your opinion. There is a saying in the hunting safety world of " Knowing what's beyond your target" You can't tell me those that are allowed to at night and drive around to find a deer to shine and shoot know what's beyond the beam of the light. Lets have your family be the first to camp just out of the beam of the light and have those that are above us shoot in your families camp direction. What are the odds of the bullet hitting them. No big deal in your opinion.
""and only about three percent of the northern harvest many years"" That is significant in the north. I have talked to a significant # of hunters this year that have very few (1 or 2) deer on camera and many with NO bucks in the north. Now take the guys that scout out a decent buck (which are very few up here) only to have it shot at night off the road at night by the privileged.
There is no GOOD reason to allow night hunting !!!
Drive up here and do a story I'll give you some contacts.
Any deer taken in this manner right now to the north is tough for people in the north to swallow given the low population - ESPECIALLY does. The point of the matter is that they are only pushing for this as whining over the wolf hunt. That is also why they shot elk 2 years running without WDNR approval.
Arrow, I'm not disagreeing with you, only trying to point out the many other ways deer die and the small percentage this harvest will be (and yes I think it stinks, esp. if they target trophy bucks or even does in areas with "few" deer).
Night hunting is done for coyotes and raccoons, and done safely, by far more "regular" hunters than tribal hunters. And, Wisconsin was going to allow night hunting for wolves but pulled it when the tribes started their campaign for this opportunity.
The only way to deal with this, especially considering our leftist activist courts, is by casino. If we can not limit or tax casinos on their "sovereign land", then we need to permit new casinos for ALL races and creeds. Limit them, but let private entities build casinos nearby that will run these night poachers out of business. They MIGHT have the right to build casinos, but there is no reason others shouldn't have the right too.
I am not disagreeing you, but as I recall the settlements negotiated with the tribes for casino's etc. are set to on a time limit unlike the treaties. If these lapse safe harvest limits can be executed to the fullest amount leaving little for us non-Indian folks.
Trax …… Im with you stay out of their casinos and build private ones !!!!
"stay out of their casinos "
All outdoorsmen and outdoorswomen should abide by that.
Build state owned casinos, hire some good management out of Vegas and that could generate enough revenue to make a difference on taxes.
Competition for the casinos and closing will only lead to more harvest for the Chippewas which they have negotiated away for the right to casinos. Without the casinos there is no leverage to give up any harvest levels. The key is come up a real option or using casinos but limiting harvest. How do we do that, then we are accomplishing something. Not just complaining uselessly.
Naz, I know you are a good guy and a pretty damn good writer. But you have to get out of your little bubble to have some objectivity.
Screwball, the Indians will increase their harvest casinos or not. Notice the quotas set on Eyes the last 2 years since the wolf hunt was announced. The saving grace was that ice remained on the lakes into May and the spearing numbers were down. Many lakes were set to 1 Eye in advance and changed when the ice prevented the Indians from reaching their increased quotas. Watch out the next mild spring.
I stay out of the casinos. That is part of my part.
The Indians can "declare" any quota they want. What they declare, and what they harvest are two very different things. But the bag limits need to be planned out before season starts based on what the Indians declare.
"The privilege of hunting, fishing, and gathering the wild rice, upon the lands, the rivers and the lakes included in the territory ceded, is guarantied to the Indians, during the pleasure of the President of the United States." Treaty of 1837. Treaty of 1842 has similar language.
Congress also has the authority to abrogate the treaties. That being said, the LCO series of cases did establish that there are limits to those rights. Shooting at night and its inherent risks might very well fall outside the definition of those rights. We'll see.
Rut , give Naz a break . You have to remember he voted for Obama and has a picture of Nancy Pelosi on his bedroom ceiling . :>]
Ruger, false and false; Rut, objectivity means a lack of bias, or being fair-minded. I believe I was fair in my assessment of how deer die and night hunting, and I don't like what the tribes are seeking to do — just as I don't like poaching and shooting after hours by any hunter.
"There is already a case for night hunting that we as hunters support."
That's all well and good but remember that the judge that will hear this case will likely be uninterested and unswayed by what hunters "support." This is a treaty issue. Indians used shining as a hunting method, so if the court determines that the safety issues are manageable, then I would expect a reversal of the 1991 ruling. Interestingly, the same judge that declared night hunting to be too dangerous will now rehear the arguments. This should be interesting.
In either event, I am quite certain that this will not amount much of an issue in the long run. It is merely a middle finger to the State because of the wolf hunt.
Kevin , we go back a long ways , just having some fun . And I still read your articles when they reach our local papers .
"Without the casinos there is no leverage to give up any harvest levels"
Wrong, by premise. If we would permit all races and creeds to build casinos it would crush their "profit" margin. It could mean the end of many of their casinos. That's tremendous leverage. Negotiate rights that give them the same "rights" as us along with the same game laws or we do this very thing. In addition we no longer should stock so much as 1 walleye or musky (or any fish) in the ceded areas while this racial unbalance exists. Let's plant that many more out of the ceded areas. I would also suggest our State Troopers and County Mounties be very vigilant when patrolling. Drunk driving is a serious crime, except on the reservation of course. There we have nothing to say about it.
Trax, each of the tribes in Wisconsin runs a sophisticated fish hatchery and tens of millions of walleye fry and fingerlings are released each year and many if not most of those go into non-reservation waters. They have worked in partnership with the DNR's hatchery program for decades.
I understand that the tribes hatch some fry. A Band-Aid to treat cancer. We never did (in modern memory) have the walleye fishing in our lakes that Minnesota, the Dakotas and Canada have overall but our walleye fishery has been decimated. Some of our best musky lakes now also being affected noticeably by spearing.
I say we pull all support of them. They can build and manage their own hatcheries. The state should support the lakes in the state that do not see spearing. We have now witnessed with experience what their "hatch and stock" program produces in relation to what they rape.
Again, our leverage are the casinos. Not that we can shut down theirs, although they should have always been taxed like any business. Do not make idle threats about this. The tribes do not want equal rights, they want special rights. In a time when those agreements held far different meaning with far different technologies. ALLOW the permitting and building of casinos by ALL races and creeds. Let them have their ceded "reservations" if they so choose. They soon will have nothing with the way they manage the wild.
Trax the people here in Kenosha and surrounding area are ticked off that the Govenor wont make a desicion and feel he is doing it for political reasons on the huge Casino planned. It is very well supported and most want it down here. I dont do Casinos but many many do unfortuntley.
The tribal spearing harvest does not negatively impact the overall quality of any given fishery. The DNR does their population samples and determines the maximum safe harvest from every lake in the ceded territory. The tribes then declare which lakes they're spearing and, within the confines of the DNR safe harvest limits, declare how many fish they will harvest. The DNR then uses the remaining number to determine bag limits for hook and line fisherman.
The tribes, although not required to do so, always restock lakes on which they've speared and rarely if ever spearfish a lake in consecutive years. The ribes usually end up spearing only about half of their declared limit. Last year they took a total of 28,000 walleye out of the ceded territory (most of Northern Wisconsin).
The casino issue is unrelated to spearing issue, so I won't address that, but as it relates to hunting and fishing, the Indians don't WANT special rights; they HAVE special rights. Rather than exterminating the Indians, the US government decided to negotiate the end of hostilities. The rights rise directly out of those negotiations and are the law of the land second only to the US Constitution. And as far as the change in circumstances and technologies, those were addressed exhaustively in the long series of LCO cases.
"The casino issue is unrelated to spearing issue, so I won't address that,"
Wrong. It is related since indirectly it is the only leverage that we have. It is leverage that we should have used all along, and need to now.
" And as far as the change in circumstances and technologies, those were addressed exhaustively in the long series of LCO cases. "
Ahhh, they were addressed. Thanks to our liberal activist courts they were not addressed correctly.
Taking spawning walleye and musky is a very bad idea, both common sense and science tells us that. What they have done is to devastate a fishery, what they "put back" is nothing more than token when you consider the adult spawners that they take.
The issue here is shooting deer by high powered spot light or street light above a corn pile. Real hunters these guys are. The whole idea is laughably stupid, until you realize that they are serious. What does this accomplish for them? What an embarrassment they have become, a once proud people. Their ancestors would be ashamed.
Easy guys, they need the venison to eat. They have no food $ after spending their large monthly checks on new trucks, ATV's, snowmobiles, boats, drugs, booze, partying etc...
Easy guys, they need the venison to eat. They have no food $ after spending their large monthly checks on new trucks, ATV's, snowmobiles, boats, drugs, booze, partying etc...
"The tribes, although not required to do so, always restock lakes on which they've speared and rarely if ever spearfish a lake in consecutive years. The ribes usually end up spearing only about half of their declared limit. Last year they took a total of 28,000 walleye out of the ceded territory (most of Northern Wisconsin)."
this is false on many lakes! they spear most lakes every year! And many lakes they reach their quote yearly. I don't know where you get your info buts its wrong!
As I stated earlier, if this is the direction we are going, this current dialogue is accomplishing nothing. Can the President end treaties of course, NO President is going to do this so accept that, and accept that they are here to stay. We can blame judges, not accomplishing anything. Casinos are not going to be used in any way other than what they have. So can we find another angle, is there some way that the issue can be solved. Since the 80's no one has come up with an option. If Casinos is our only option then we have no solution to this issue. I have been studying this for years and cannot come up with a solution.
"If Casinos is our only option then we have no solution to this issue."
Solution? It depends on how you define solution in respect to this issue. We might presently have an agreement with them regarding they having casinos, and I don not know when that agreement expires but we need to rethink that.
In the meantime by allowing any citizen or company to operate casinos we will drive many of theirs out of business, or in the least greatly affect their profit margins. At the same time we should discontinue any stocking of lakes in the ceded territory, stock those fish in the rest of the state. Don't threaten to do it, do it. Let them role in their own stink.
Let them use the same pine knot torches and long bows they used when the 1837 and 1842 treaties were signed and they can walk or ride the horse from the Reservation too.
Realdeal, he was correct. Most years they don't even come anywhere close to their declarations, thus the long list of "one-fish" lakes that suddenly get upgraded so sport anglers can keep more if they so choose (and if they're good enough/lucky enough/spend enough time).
Guys, all over this board are threads that say we need crossbows to recruit more hunters into the woods, as if this is a good thing. If that line of thinking is correct, then more deer will be harvested. Therefore, I see no issue with the tribal members increasing their kill by night hunting. And, night hunting deer is no different than night hunting predators, same risks.
Normally I would have been against anything that took more advantage of game and increased the harvest, but the white man got greedy with his laziness and crossbows are becoming the norm,... all in the pretense that we need more hunters, and therefore more harvest. How dumb can hunters be?
"The tribes, although not required to do so, always restock lakes on which they've speared and rarely if ever spearfish a lake in consecutive years. The ribes usually end up spearing only about half of their declared limit. Last year they took a total of 28,000 walleye out of the ceded territory (most of Northern Wisconsin). "
Please show me the recent stockings in the last 5 years.
The ONLY reason the Indians did not meet and exceed their increased quotas the last 2 years is because ice remained on the lakes late and they were simply not as successful. Watch out the next time we get a mild spring.
Everything they are doing from shooting elk 2 years running against the WDNR wishes, pushing for shooting deer off the reservations at night and increasing their spearing quotas (not to mention the Musky Spearing Tournament in 2013) is due to them whining over the wolf hunt.
Happy, do you know when the last year was when the tribes hit their walleye quota? I can't remember any in recent memory.
My online records on this only go back a decade, but walleye harvests the past 10 years have ranged from 26,877 to 34,156, and muskie harvests from 201 to 335, all well below what they could have taken (and far below what walleye anglers take; data on muskies kept is sparse, but a number of studies have found some pretty significant delayed mortality on deep-hooked sport angler fish that were released).
As for stocking, here's 2012, for example. Fingerlings from that year class should be catchable size in 2015. Fry are stocked in much higher numbers, but many simply disappear — food for many other predators, including walleyes.
Naz, can you provide the numbers of fish stocked into each lake that is speared. I am not aware of any Indian stocking into the chain of lakes I have a place on. Those numbers above just show fish reared in the hatcheries but don't show the restocking by lake.
I'm sure that's available somewhere, but I don't have it and am working on a couple other pieces right now so no extra time to dig. Perhaps you could check with GLIFWC for the lakes you're interested in? Phone number is on the bottom of linked page.
If our lakes were properly managed we would have a 5 walleye limit on every one of them. In reality the two fish limit on many of the speared lakes is too high. The walleye fishing in this state is a joke, and what would you expect when in our best waters the spawning fish are removed at a critical time. The limits posted at these boat landing tell the story.
But this issue is shooting deer at night. They can't drive around and shoot enough during the day so they want to shoot them at night. Then why wouldn't they want to hunt deer and turkeys and elk and bald eagles 24/7 365 days a year? Let's let them do that too. Like I said, let's let them roll in their own stink. But let's become a casino state, let's become the new Las Vegas. Unless we think we can soon eliminate their casinos, let's permit a limited number of big Vegas style casinos to come in at choice locations. Let's let ALL races and creeds operate casinos. The great part of this is these new casinos would actually have to pay taxes! Don't talk about it Scott Walker, do it and do it now.
How about this one, taken from the website Naz noted above.
"SWAN SEASON INFORMATION
For the first time this fall, tribal members hunting off-reservation in the 1837 and 1842 ceded territories can harvest tundra and trumpeter swans. These two species can be difficult to tell apart in the field. While either species can be harvested, the season is designed to place harvest emphasis on migrant tundra swans, which are much more plentiful than the locally nesting trumpeter swans. As such, the swan season will not begin until November 1st, after migrant tundra swans have typically arrived in the area in appreciable numbers. There is a daily and seasonal possession limit of 2 swans."
Swans? Really?
Or how about this one from the same link.
"Tribal Deer Hunt to Follow Tribal Rules – Including Harvests of Antlerless Deer
Tribal deer hunting will proceed in 2014 just like it did in 2013. Unfortunately, the Sawyer County Record published an article on June 4 entitled: “No Does Allowed in 2014 Northern Deer Hunt.” What this article failed to mention is that the zero quotas established for all counties and reservation units in the north only applies to state-licensed gun and bow hunters. It does not apply to tribal members hunting either on or off the reservations. There are no limits on the harvest of antlerless deer by tribal members during the 2014 hunting season."
Yep, these Indians really care about the future of the deer population. Not really fair that the White man cannot shoot a doe due to protecting the specie for the future but the Indians can decimate the herd as they wish WITH NO LIMIT.
Yes, they have defined themselves and this is likely just the beginning. They are willing to embrace parasite status in terms of the environment, in terms of game management. It is a much deeper issue but this is what happens when you provide an existence with free government money to any people.
Again, let them have their ceded territory. Stock nothing there. No elk, no fish. Open the season on wolves. Permit new casinos to be owned (and taxed) by any race or company right along side some of their finest. We'll go from there.
Naz,
I contacted Kia White who is the Fisheries Database Manager (the website called her the Inland Lakes Fish Manager) of the Great Lakes Indian Fish & Wildlife Commission. She was not aware of any existing breakout of fish planted by lake. She passed me to Sue Erickson who is a Fisheries Biologist with GLIFWC. She produced the same chart you showed which only shows the fish reared at each plant. She told me she was not aware of any of the data I was looking for. She said I’d have to contact each tribe that manages the plants to see if they have that information.
I’m taken aback that this information is not available and public for everyone to see. It seems like it would be a very good story for the tribes to tell. I’m thinking that either all or the vast majority of those fish reared are being planted in the lakes on the reservations only. I could be wrong there but signs sure point that way. I believe you might be well connected with the tribes and I’m surprised you would not have that data if it existed.
Not connected, but have met a couple of the folks at various Learn To Hunt and Hunting Future conferences. I'd keep asking. I'm sure the individual hatchery managers have that info and you're right, I'd bet they'd be happy to tell that story.
