antler restrictions
Pennsylvania
Now that AR have been in place and we are all use to them Has any ones opinion changed in the subject? If you were once against it are you now for it, or if you were for out are you now against it?
APR's simply allowed more bucks to live another year, so obviously we kill more older deer now than at any other time. Some will argue that it limits opportunities, but the numbers show that's not the case. The biggest/largest/oldest bucks I've killed all came after the inception of APR's and that's not coincidence. I thought it would be a positive change when we first heard of it here and now still feel the same way..........Cons? Yep, there are a few, namely more land leased/posted for the purpose of head hunting, and likewise we've emerged in to a counter culture "trophy" deer and deer hunter mindset as a group. I don't target specific or "hit list" deer, but at the same time don't mind a bit killing BIG deer. :)
I will say this , I have limited my "shooters" top 100"=/- since the introduction of AR's. I'm not complaining because I believe the some of the best hunting in the state is in 2D. I really believe that since they reduced the antler restrictions to "3 Up" that the number of surviving "100 in." bucks have dropped at least in my area. I'm sure this could be area specific and not as noticeable in some areas but if you think about it, if there are 3 or 4 basket rack 7's or 8's killed in a small area since no one has to look fro the "brow tine", that will significantly reduce the number of those 100" carry over prospects. Just Say'in!. In my camera surveys, I used to be able to come up with ten or eleven shooters a year - the last couple years I've been struggling to come up with a half doz. I would really like to see them go beck to the "4 to a side w/ 1'brow" in the western part of the state and go to the current "3 up" in the rest of the state.
I kind of agree with Steve.
AR doesn't bother me at all. If I see a buck and feel like killing it, I do. Heck no ones going to know and ya don't even haft to send in a report card. Piece of cake.
I agree with x-master on the three up rule change as far as seeing fewer larger rack deer in the western zones.First few years of the 4 per side/brow rule I saw bigger racked bucks and the last few years have seen less and smaller rack deer.Not that I am a rack hunter.I hunt public land and have to hunt hard and have taken small rack deer the last couple of years and just as proud.I also hunt in the eastern areas that have fewer deer on public land and it is hard to even find one let alone one with 3 on a side.so it could be frustrating to a person that has little time to hunt and have to pass on smaller bucks.
I'm All for a new state wide 5 point rule..:)
But really, I would of loved if it was state wide 4 point just to see how it would of worked. I'm from 3c eD
I just enjoy knowing the bigger bucks are there. May as well forget about killing them. LOL
The last buck I killed was 4.5 years old. My brother's before that one was 6.5 years old.
Doesn't matter so much what size the rack is, a 4.5 year old 120 inch buck is just as hard to kill as a 4.5 year old 160 inch buck.
Age matters, not the size.
Agreed, Brad......that's my mindset.
That said, the change from "4 to a side" to "3 up" in the western part of the state was just plain stupid, IMHO. I discussed this with our new WCO at my kid's hunter safety course a few years back. He completely agreed that it made no sense, and was done for no other reason than hunters complaining that they couldn't count to 4.......I wish that were a joke, but it wasn't. They bastardized a good thing.
I was all for AR when it came out, but all the loop holes, "3 up change" and herd reductions have made this effort have an over all very disappointing result from my lifetime of hunting observations.
I used to see many 6 point and even 8 point 1st year bucks in 2A, now that we have shot out those genetics for the past 10 years it's now hard to find a 2 yr old 6 or 8 point. Through all the theory you want at me, I see what I see.
I think the best way to get older class deer with better genetics is with season length and weapon class restrictions, like Ohio.
To get PA's deer hunting back up to snuff, it would take a year of no deer hunting, and then only allowing buck hunting every other year for 4 years to get hunting decent again.
Buck hunting in PA now is Poor.
I liked the 4 pt rule better also. I saw nicer bucks before they went to the 3 up rule.
Always', sorry bro', but I DON'T agree with that.
My area of southern 2C has seen some larger bucks, not much more than before, but they are there.
Remember what went hand in hand with the point restrictions? Massive anterless deer reduction! We had to "make room" for all those monster bucks we would get with antler restrictions. Unfortunetly, the button buck (tomorrows branch antlered buck) is not making it to adulthood.
What is very evident is the lack of the immature or "safe" bucks with less than 3 on a side. Spikes and forkies are more rare than the legal bucks.
Overall deer numbers are down and the new legal buck numbers are way way down. Yes we are seeing bigger bucks, just not very many. My friend is a taxidermist, his records confirm that the bucks brought to him are much bigger but he is only getting a fraction of the number of bucks he used to get.
My opinion on AR has not changed because I didn't care then and I don't care now. I do care about killing off a formerly healthy herd for their own good.
I am still all for them. I live and hunt in 3C.
I believe what they're doing is unnatural and unhealthy for the herd in the long run, not to mention forces me to hunt unnaturally, but have no 'selfish' opinion on how antler size is affected in my hunting areas because I don't care.
stick n string
Yes, that's what I'm saying. Concurrent antlered/antlerless gun seasons and way too many tags have been detrimental to the so called "balanced" herd. The result has been an absence of young bucks.
Back before all this started rifle buck season ran two weeks, then doe for two or maybe three days. You were lucky to get a doe tag, let alone find an antlerless deer to kill. They were still in hiding from the buck season. There were a whole lot of those button bucks that survived to become next years juvenile bucks.
I only mention the gun season because all meaningful harvests ocurr during the firearm season.
There were always big bucks that made the papers, but most bucks killed were forkies and spikes. Now, we see a few more real monsters but far fewer young bucks. Overall, I would say our herd is less balanced now than it ever was.
Hunters cryed for trophies and they got them. I believe the deer herd itself paid the price.
You mentioned in your post that AR's protect the young buck with fewer points, and it does that well. AR's in themselves are fine, nothing wrong with them. It's the rest of the package we swallowed that I'm not too sure was a good thing.
Allwayslearning, you cannot shoot out the genetics, the doe carries the genetics also, ask a Whitetail Biologist, your entitled to your opinion but facts are factts. PA used to harvest 90% yearling bucks, using your theory the genetics were shot out decades ago.... Yes? My brother is a Biologist and we have had this discussion with others many times, he is very knowledgable on the subject of genetics he could tell you better than I could but rest assured the genetics are not being shot out of the PA herd.
Jeff, what do you consider "natural" ? 90 % of the buck harvest 1 1/2 year olds? 10% of the bucks living to maturity? It's not 1537, nothing is "natural" anymore or very little is "natural" not saying you or me have to like it but thems the facts.
I like AR's because I like to hunt mature bucks, it's great for me but I don't think I should tell others not to shoot young bucks, AR's are not fair to everyone IMO so it would not bother me if they stopped it all together.
Mike
On a more serious note here. I love the AR's. In my area here in SW Pa, I have noticed a big increase in the number of 8 and 10 points in the 2.5 years old bracket. And have seen some pretty awesome 3.5 year old bucks. Way more than before AR! And there were too many deer here years ago, now with the increase in doe tags the past few years, the herd here appears very healthy and the rut is much better now.
I think it's been successful in my part of the state. Can't say I've seen an increase in larger antlered deer, but there does seem to be more 2.5 & 3.5 year old bucks and that's what's important. Occasionally someone shoots a slammer locally as well.
Haven't seen much difference with AR and really haven't seen any increase in numbers as far as big bucks go. I hunt Mercer Co. and there were always big bucks.
"Jeff, what do you consider "natural" ?"
Hunting as all other predators do... simply pusuing prey without bias regarding antler size, age, gender, or even species, etc.
"90 % of the buck harvest 1 1/2 year olds? 10% of the bucks living to maturity?"
Seriously? No. That's not what I meant at all. And besides, with natural-type predation, that would certainly never be the case. Name ONE other species that is affected as such by natural predation. Only the skewed values of modern man causes such imbalance.
"It's not 1537, nothing is "natural" anymore or very little is "natural" not saying you or me have to like it but thems the facts."
Those AREN'T the facts. But one fact is, the overwhealming majority of everything IS natural, works naturally... and perfectly.
Some berry interesting comments. Let me run with what Mike said. Now if we did away with the AR do you think the majority of Hunters would go back to shooting the first spike they saw or would they be more likely to hold out for something bigger? I guess practice qdm on their own?
""Jeff, what do you consider "natural" ?"
Hunting as all other predators do... simply pusuing prey without bias regarding antler size, age, gender, or even species, etc."
Jeff,
Agreed - except that I would have omitted age from the equation. If we hunters preyed upon whitetails like their natural predators do, then the bulk of the deer being killed would be young of the year or the old and infirm. Plus the ones suffering from maladies such as wounds, injuries, etc. which of course, are age-independent.
Your statement, "Only the skewed values of modern man causes such imbalance." says it all, and is very, very true.
Don't get me wrong, I like the antler restrictions, but what It has created is a hell'uva lot of posted land that used to be open to the public, just by asking permission. Not so any more! I believe it has also created a more determined, 'if it's brown it's down' hunter, especially with 55k or so doe license issued in 2a. Most of the ppl that hunted private land are now on the Game lands and are killing, just about everything in sight. Bow or rifle, doesn't seem to matter, especially,the does. I'm just glad that Pa had the foresight, to buy so much hunt able land, and the 'brown its down' crowd, can't be everywhere, at the same time.
Since the AR is in place , I have seen less big bucks then before. I killed my biggest buck before AR was put in place.
It's easy to think that your personal experiences are a microcosm for the state on the whole, but they simply aren't and the numbers bear that out. In so far as the claims that APR's don't produce older bucks, that is erroneous. Everyone here knows I don't care for deer scoring and such, but The Pope and Young Club has proven that it does in fact work in PA. In the decade following the inception of APR's, PA has DOUBLED the amount of bucks entered in to the record books verses the decade prior to APR's. Likewise, PA is now 8th in the nation in producing P&Y bucks per square mile, which puts us ahead of even Kansas.....You can have you opinions, but you can't have your own facts.
The theory that claims we've "shot off too many deer" doesn't hold any water either. In 1A basically anyone who wants 3 doe tags per year can get them and we shoot a gang of deer up here every year and have been for a very long time.......You can't keep killing deer if there aren't an abundance of them to begin with........Think about that - it's not a difficult concept.
Then there's this inane theory that says we're killing all the better 1.5yr old bucks, thus altering desirable genetics.......Dude, really? 75% of ALL BUCKS are killed every year *AFTER* the breeding season is over, so obviously that makes no sense whatsoever. That said, deer are genetically superior animals to begin with; it's why they've been around centuries before we set foot here. Genetically inferior animals are statistical anomalies, not the norm as some claim. It is very difficult to pass down substandard genes in the animal kingdom - nature just doesn't let it happen.
Because a buck has a spike or 4 pt rack his first season has no bearing, whatsoever, on what his rack will look like by the time he reaches maturity at the age of 4.5 yrs. In fact, science can't distinguish between average rack size of a deer starting at 1.5yr with an 8 pt rack, verses the spike or 4........In the end they will all look alike. As mentioned previously, some of you aren't recognizing the doe's contribution to the male offspring's genetics.
If you live in an area void of proper deer habitat then you won't see many deer and that is all there is to it. Without it they just won't be there in large numbers and it can't be any other way. I've driven through the eastern part of this state and noted vast expanses of nothing more than closed canopy/boreal forest - BAD HABITAT. How some come to blame the game commission for this is beyond me though. This state was extensively logged for a number of decades, which eventually drove deer numbers through the roof. That's over now and it's a whole different ballgame. No matter where you live hunters are killing deer all around you even if you aren't........Sorry, but that is another inalienable truth.
I like AR's. I've killed my 2 biggest bucks since they began, both in the 140's and others that I consider very respectable.
I understand why they went to the "3-up" rule here in 2D. Gun hunters like to take shots at running bucks and while you can make out 3 tines, its tough to see that brow tine when he's hauling butt across a field.
I can think of a few times where while sitting with my Dad, I've had to really look for those brow tines to give him the OK to shoot.
Dave, I agree completely about natural predation taking advantage of the inexperience, undeveloped physical capabilities, and such of the young. That's natural. That's healthy for the species. Passing countless such opportunities while targeting the strongest, most wary, antlered, mature, etc isn't.
Much surrounding deer hunting and management today goes directly against the laws of nature... survival of the fittest, natural selection, etc. The way deer are managed and targeted by many of today's hunters is beyond unnatural and not done with the best interest of the herd in mind... but rather, rooted in almost complete selfishness.
Just how I see it from here.
Jeff, once again I miss understands you, go figure ; ) AR's may not be natural and I was just trying to say the old management practices were not natural either. And when I say little is natural I was making a generalization, yes the act of pursuing game and killing and utilizing it is natural, but to me the game laws and the fact that we do not hunt to survive is not natural, I can go on and on about what is natural and not natural and I see no point in it.
Mike
Very, very well said Roger! Dito
Mike
Mike, gotcha. We probably agree more than not on a lot of this stuff. That's why I try not to jump right into an argument with you, as tempting as it is sometimes :^)
Man's mastery over nature has always been just an illusion.
Mike and Jeff, I remember a time when the three of us couldn't agree on the time of day, let alone deer and hunting them, among other things. It does my heart and mind a bunch of good to see those days have gone,.....well,.....almost. ;^)
It's important to embrace philosophical differences. A relative of mine, who is probably a bit smarter than I, once said to me "....Rog', you'll never learn anything by hanging out with people just like you, and that's why I like hanging out with YOU!" I'll never forget that.
The two of you are emblematic of passionate, ethical hunters - something else I won't forget any time soon.
stick', the hard part is reading between the lines sometimes. I'm a deer hunting nut just like you. It's just that I have a hard time comprehending the mindsets of those who look the gift horse in the mouth, like some here and other places tend to do. I grew up hunting deer in a strip mine, sans any real bowhunting mentors.......it was tough sailing to say the least. There wasn't much,.......scratch that,.....there wasn't ANY success for years. I pressed on. For some, if there isn't a "trophy" behind every other tree then it's time to blame everyone else. There's no way for me to live life that way and in my world excuses just don't exist.......won't tolerate them from others either. We have it pretty darn good, not perfect, but is THAT what really want anyway?
Roger it is very good to find common ground and you are right you do learn more from people who are not exactly like you. Growing up and working In an environment with a bunch of wise asses who do not always think before they speak and often say things to bust chops and tick you off I am sometimes guilty of being a pain in people's arses. I'm glad that you guys can get past such childish crap, being able to admit your faults makes me one step closer recovery ; )
Mike
Mike, I'm the same way... and while I'm much better than I used to be, it can be tough sometimes to tone that down enough for the uninitiated. But the fact that you and I are similar in that regard is likely why we've been able to have such 'lively' yet civil conversations over the years.
Roger, I agree, it helps to embrace our differences. And yep, we've come a ways, aye?
"... being able to admit YOUR faults makes me one step closer to recovery."
That there's funny. I like funny.
one thought line here. Humans are the only 'predator' that breeds in the quantity of a prey species. way back when, when we were, for the most part, predators...we acted like them...taking food with more attention to 'economics'(energy expended, time, the simple things :) than we do now. Since prey species and predators theoretically 'evolved' simultaneously, whitetail ecology 'provided for'..a so called " indiscrimenant harvest". Jeff is correct in a manner, in saying antler restrictions are not 'natural'. On the other foot, with the opposable thumb, as hard as it is for a me bets significant number of yaz....are gonna bristle at my close here :) Ain't too many hooman beans out are really much 'natural' any more ;)
Whew..
I'm glad I'm damn near perfect as they come.. Glad I'm not a smart ass like Treebrat either.. :)
Nice deer, Mike.. :)
Hehe...hey RC, it's hell to be perfect!! LOL
Ya got that right Brother Ed. And you wrote it better, than I could have said it!! Lol
Rules are rules and we are supposed to follow them. I will admit I hated when they first started the AR's but what can you do. Hopefully it better'd the herds.
lazer, admire your 'take' on it. A lot :) You wanna see sometime how good it's done...you come see me. Door's always open.
ed
AR, greatest thing since rock"n" roll. One mount in my man cave, pre AR, now there's six, mostly my sons!
I like ARs because I have always passed on smaller bucks and I hated when it was gun season and I'd let one walk and as soon as it got over the hill BANG, it was dead. If you just want to kill something or need meat kill a doe. A doe.... not a dozen of them that you give away!
Pretty simple... I like shooting bigger bucks and they can't get bigger if we kill them before they mature. I have never had private land to hunt so the quality of the bucks I hunt has always revolved around what got whacked in gun season. Thank God for ARs! yes, I'm aware that there are some down sides to it though.
I hate the doe slaughter. I know guys that kill 6 or 8 does a year and 3/4 of them are button bucks. That sucks. Even if they weren't those does are our breeders. Every one that gets killed means less bucks, and less deer in general.
Always learning.... what? lol Are you hunting the same Pennsylvania as the rest of us?
Joe ( mule power ), you are right ,and i agree with everything, you've said. And the, doe slaughter,continues!!!
Mule Power you are my kind of man !!! :):) No one should shoot more than they can eat. You said it better than I could.
I think it's due to ignorance, but here the folks come for deer season from the city to hunt (they don't live here) and have no knowledge of the doe count or survival rate of the fawns. We are in a country subdivision with 10-50 acre places surrounded by multi-thousand acre places. Most of these folks have a 10 acre place, and between them and their guests, will take 20 deer per place!!! Mostly young bucks, does and nubbin's. Over and over and over. (The limit here is 5 deer no more than two bucks.)
Three years ago, at the height of our drought, we had 22 does on a feeder in the front yard. One fawn survived. Doesn't take too many years like that to really down the herd.
Texas rant over :)::)
