reduced scrapes and rubs?
Wisconsin
Just curious what other people are seeing for scrapes and rubs. I hunt Hunt several good good properties with lots of bucks on camera and am not seeing any rubs or scrapes in places they should be. I'm not searching for them, but when I'm walking to my stands along field edges and atv trails I'm used to seeing scrapes and rubs and haven't see any on my two best properties and very minimal rubs on the the other. I have seen a few bucks from stands but not as many as I usually do. Anyone else not finding the scrapes and rubs they normally do this time of year?
Things are on track here in Sawyer county. Seeing plenty of rubs and a few scrapes.
Few deer here after last winter and what I have on camera are young bucks or sub par antlers. It might make a good rut though.
Thanks for the info smokey. I'm in northern door county and it just bizarre to me that I'm not seeing the scrapes and rubs yet. Seeing plenty of deer each time in the stand but low buck sign. Good luck up there!!
Lots of scrapes in southern Taylor. Haven't seen rubs but have been staying out of the areas they normally show up. For the amount of scrapes though it should be a good rut. Have been lazy with the trail cameras and didn't get them where they needed to be tell last weekend so we will see. Got married late August so have been preoccupied but luckily she supports my obsession so I am back in the swing of things now.
Good luck all we are getting close now.
Bucks just starting to show up in Juneau County and found 5 scrapes yesterday. Frosty mornings might have something to do with it. Mock scrapes were visited as well. Just 2 small rubs so far.
I was amazed at how many scrapes i saw last weekend. Seemed like almost every tree that was the right height had a scrape under it. Moved a few cameras to some of the scrapes we will see how many picts i have on them. Very motivating to see.
Was out over the weekend and saw several scraps and rubs. Bucks still are not showing up on camera till at least a 1 hour after sundown though.
Hopefully things will pick up this weekend.
Florence County
No rubs or scrapes. Saw two spikes On Mon morning. Hoping the buck population isn't way down.
Been seeing tons of scrapes on our 120 lease in Green Lake County. Saw a shooter buck Friday and within two minutes two small racked bucks appeared and clashed their antlers with the other for about 20 minutes! They both freshened the same scrape just before the sparing match too! It was awesome to see for that perod of time.
Six scrapes in the last two days on my 40. All on the field edge.
Sat tonight and watched a doe just pummel her two fawns. She spent a good 45 minutes running around trying to ditch them and finally stopped not 20 yards in front of me and just beat the tar out of the doe fawn. She kicked the buck fawn but, not to the extent that she beat the doe.
10orbetter that most have been amazing to see! I have heard of this happening but never seen it in person.
It blew me away. If she would have been alone, she would have been on the dinner plate tonight. Very cool. I always have some kind of camera with me except of course tonight. Really pissed me off.
Spent the last 3 days on my 720 acres in Northern Polk county. We found ZERO scrapes or new rubs on the property, and the 3 mock scrapes I made last week, were all untouched. (I traditionally have tremendous success with my mock scrapes)
Also, my trail camera sightings of bucks older than a yearling, are only two or three bucks, compared to the normal 10-15 different bucks we see that are older than a 1.5 year old.
Wolves and Bears are everywhere, and the deer seem to have vanished. We traditionally are loaded with deer, and have no problems harvesting 4-8 does a year off the property.
Unless something changes soon, this year may be a complete bust.
I have close to 16 other bow hunters coming up in two weeks, and for the first time ever in nearly 30 years, I may not have any reason for them to be excited about hunting my land.
Plenty of scrapes but fewer rubs on our land. But its just starting up so we shall see what the season brings.
Just saw first scrapes opened up this past weekend. Only saw one rub. Langlade county area...about average for this time of year. Next week or so they should really start popping.
I am finding lots of scrapes starting last week, not much rubbing but they are apparently fighting as one of the 10pts I had on camera is now a 7pt, got his brows and a G3 broke off. Waushara County.
This was prior to him losing 3 tines....on the bright side I guess there is another big one around taking him on!
Some experts believe where deer populations are "too" high, the need for scraping is reduced, but I have no idea if that's science-based research or not.
There is plenty of anecdotal evidence, though, that there's a direct correlation between "too many does" and lack of daytime movement by older bucks. In pressured areas, breeding competition can drive daylight buck activity. But if there are numbers of adult does for every buck, there's no competition; mature bucks that have "been there, done that and survived" seem to know better and wait for darkness. Now, if the buck-to-doe ratio is closer to where it should be, there's competition and thus, more daytime movement.
Went for a walk this afternoon and found 6 scrapes that were not there on Sunday. Still little to no rubs. This is Ozaukee county.
Naz Macbook - interesting post. I have long believed that my property is way too doe heavy, and have tried for over a decade to get more of the hunters to harvest does. Unfortunately, the older and thus most "powerful" members of my group, remember hunting in the 60's and 70's when no one saw an deer, and the bias against ever shooting a doe.
I cannot get them to change their mind, and now they ae spoiled about seeing 20-30 deer a day, so when they have a bad season, they blame it on my harvesting too many does.
Based on trail camera pictures, and detailed gun season sightings records, the Buck to doe ratio on my property is a horrible 1:12
However, over the last 10 years are B/D ratio is actually getting better, as it was closer to 1:20 when I first started taking detailed records, and that was in 1997. And even then, we had tons of scrapes and rubs. This is the first year I can EVER remember not having any scrapes/rubs found on the property by October 15th. I am really scared that the winter and predators just decimated my buck population.
Thanks for the nice write up damp land I just don't get it!!!!! I hunting one of my best stands this evening and took the long mile walk along a prime field edge that normally has scrapes under every tree, and I didn't see a single one and I know there are bucks in the area. Just can't find a good explanation why they aren't making scraps. Shined the field last night and there were 4 small bucks out in it.
Found the first 3 scrapes on Sunday morning and 2 spots where bucks did battle with willow clumps, today. Miles apart so probably different bucks. So it's just getting started in Oneida county. Scrapes were only a couple hundred yards apart. Course there aren't many deer here either.
Damp, wow, that's a lot of deer! Yes, very hard to change minds of the anti-doe-shoot crowd. I've read about possible reduced scraping (and reduced need to "use" or check scrapes once set up) with ratios half of yours, so maybe that has something to do with it.
1:12 ratio is not possible. 1:5 is about the worst you can get in nature.
It's more than possible post-hunt. I would agree though that it would be very rare to have anything higher than 5- or 6-to-1 in fall (pre-hunt) unless there was a very poor fawn crop the year prior. If the fawn crop was even fair, there should always be a bunch of yearling bucks.
Tri-County,
Every year during the gun season, I record what each hunter in my group saw that day. We have an average of 16 hunters each year for both weekends, and 6 hunters during the week; and we only hunt our private 720 acres.
Our neighbors on 3 sides are aggressive private land hunters, and the other side heavily hunted county land.
My group has actually been recording our daily gun season sightings since 1972, and we only count legal bucks as bucks (no nubbins)
You are welcome to do the math based on the numbers below, but I stand by my statement that out buck:doe ratio is around 1:12.
I agree that in UNhunted nature, it should be closer to 1:1 or 1:2; but our area is hunted hard, thus creating an out of whack ratio.
YEAR BUCK DOE 1972 2 63 1973 2 90 1974 5 123 1975 4 202 1976 9 189 1977 14 429 1978 4 327 1979 9 283 1980 10 467 1981 10 290 1982 15 318 1983 6 133 1984 10 371 1985 26 388 1986 29 703 1987 20 938 1988 38 897 1989 35 1115 1990 28 936 1991 23 895 1992 36 837 1993 28 702 1994 12 figures lost for season 1995 22 857 1996 33 804 1997 34 figures lost for season 1998 28 793 1999 44 773 2000 38 848 2001 39 593 2002 60 823 2003 52 869 2004 51 623 2005 71 761 2006 115 951 2007 96 616 2008 60 564 2009 69 621 2010 61 934 2011 60 553 2012 29 627 2013 54 634
I believe Naz is right on this one. To many does and not enough bucks for those does reduces competition thus rut sign is not as noticeable. I am experiencing this very issue this year on my small property. The amount of sign is way behind normal.
well crap, my numbers copied and pasted from my spreadsheet looked much better when I was reviewing it, but now they are no longer in columns, and look messy, sorry.
Damp, try taking a "screen shot" and then turn that into a jpeg and post it. That's what I often do with charts and such. If on a Mac, it's "shift, Apple & 3" at the same time … not sure on any other.
Thanks Naz, see if this works.
if your counting nubs/buck fawns as "doe" that is not a true "sex" or buck to doe ratio. You are talking more about a "shooter" to "deer with no visible antlers" ratio. You may indeed have a poor 5:1 or 6:1 doe/buck ratio and you probably due if your hunting party does not practice good doe harvest but 12:1 or 20:1 is not possible.
Here is a good article regarding the topic
"I often hear hunters, outdoor writers, and even biologists refer to 10:1 or 15:1 doe:buck ratios. These cannot be pre-hunt adult ratios because as long as the deer herd is reproducing and recruiting fawns, the ratio cannot become more skewed than about five does per buck. The biological maximum is roughly 5:1 because even in the absence of doe harvest, a certain percentage of adult does in the population will die each year from old age, vehicle collisions, disease, predators, etc. Also, about 50 percent of fawns born each year are bucks, thus the sex ratio gets an annual correction when fawns are recruited."
50% of fawns are bucks...no way. I have always read that shooting the older bigger does, if they have buck fawns, helps to keep the bucks fawns in the area but that has not stood true either in my area. The other thing that is a popular read is that younger does produce more buck fawns. Got to love science and theories..... :)
Our woods is filled with does. Yet we're seeing lots and lots of scrapes. Most may be made by inferior bucks but the big boys will take them over as the pre-rut shifts into the chase stage. Where the does are the bucks will soon be. Its only gonna get better from here on out brothers.
I saw my first scrape about 3 weeks ago already. Thought things were looking up sign wise. To date that's still the only one I have seen. I guess I just won't rely on sign this season. I have seen 2 chase sequences already, though. Yesterday pm was more than just harassment, with the buck grunting & flat out running the doe all over the woods. Both times the buck was a youngster. Things appear to be heating up, despite what lack of sign says.
I am working on fixing my deer to freezer ratio hoping to have it at 3:1 by the end of the season!
Do the ones I make count?
I spent 3 days in Washburn county and walked a lot of miles (all public land) in areas where I typically see some decent sign. I didn't see a single rub and found a half dozen scrapes. The sign in general looked way down (not many droppings, trails looking very faint compared to past years, etc). Between my brother and I, we logged about 18 hours in the tree and I saw a doe and fawn, which were the only sightings. My bro did see 2 bears about 8 miles apart off of blacktop roads....
Speaking of droppings, I found an area that looks like the deer are feeding around in the oak leaves looking for acorns, but, there are no droppings. I'm thinking of putting some Metamucil out there. Actually most of my spots around Eau Claire have no droppings.
Tri County,
You are correct that I should be saying my Anterled Buck: anterless deer ratio is 1:12, as we do count nubbins and any unidentified sex deer as a doe/anterless.
Bottom line, we have too many does in a ratio to antlered bucks.
Dbl, why don't you believe 50 percent of fawns are buck fawns? Antlerless deer are even shot in a similar percentage as they are on the landscape: roughly half adult does, and one-quarter buck fawns and one-quarter doe fawns. Decades of aging data shows that to be the case. That's science. The barstool talk, though, often is that "all the baldies shot were nubbins."
Spent the last 5 days in Bayfield County, put miles on walking and hours on stand. O sightings and NO rubs or scrapes in areas that have always had them. The acorn crop is tremendous. All a deer would have to do is stand still and the food drops from trees like manna from heaven. Population has been on decline for years here since the wolves moved in (good news is for the first time in 5 years never heard a howl). Very, very strange lack of sign. Also saw a monster buck at a registration station in Ashland (another reason to keep them)and the hunter said the buck was out cruising when he took him and his tarsals were getting dark.
Dampland, that chart has got to be one of the most amazing things I've seen on this site. Wow, awesome record keeping. Have you ever shown that to a group of biologist to see what conclusions they could come up with? Or what questions it answers or leaves unanswered? BC
Damp, glad the chart worked. However, and this is just my opinion, far easier to count (and recount) antlerless deer because mature bucks that aren't shot right away (and many are) are very, very good at "disappearing" after opening day. I say that because many times in bow season, I actually see as many (sometimes more) bucks per sit than antlerless. It's the opposite for me during gun, yet I know most of those bucks are still around (got 'em on cameras or see 'em after season, etc.). I just can't see how cumulative countings by multiple hunters would work. For example, the same doe and two fawns could be seen by four hunters, and only one sees a buck that day. It goes down as 12-1.
Pop sickle stick antlers don't make much of a rub... and you rarely see nub bucks ope ING a scrape...
The scrapping has been better than ever around the north eastern part of Manitowoc, County. I just for kicks made a scrap and peed in it, in less than a week that think is now about three times bigger. I'm going to have to try this again but I'll put a trail camera out next time. I read where this works but never believed it until I tried it.
A couple of things to keep in mind here. While Solunar experts would have us looking at moon phases till we are blue in the face- I'm sure there is something to activity connected, I don't buy into the breeding part of the equation. Basically, the rut occurs within days of each other every year in my opinion. Give or take 4-5 days. That is not to say that annual rut cycles are different and are dictated by weather/ temperature etc. last year we saw a short trickle rut early, then a secondary flare up in my area. That said, where I am seeing scrapes is the same area each year that are the first ones...about a week later I will see them popping up all over the woods. So I am not sure they are reduced or if it is just a little early. if you're getting pics on your cameras at night as most are, you know you have deer in your area. Peter fiduccia (sp?) says when you see your first scrpaes, count forward 28-32 days and that is peek breeding. If that's the case, that puts peak breeding somewhere around the 15th, which I say is normal. My take-away from all of this is doesn't matter be in the woods as much as you can from Halloween through the 15th and you'll see action. My big days this year will be Nov 6-9th.
The problem I've had in my area is that the sighting activity drops the more into Nov I go. I've always felt it is because of lockdowns. I've always had the most action the last week of Oct to a few day's into Nov.
Bow crazy,
Since 1971, my hunting group has marked all of our gun season deer sightings and harvest on a yearly map of our property. (see example)
Green circle = antlerless sighting Filled in Green circle = harvested doe/anterless deer Red circle = Antlered Buck sighting Filled in Red Circle = Harvested antlered Buck Blue/Black "W"= wolf sighting Blue/Black "B" = Bear sighting
We also have kept a journal, that is now over 150 pages long.
Since 1997, I have kept a database of each individuals deer sightings during the gun season. (every night after the hunt, I mark it all down)
It has been interesting to see the trends over the years.
Naz, when we count the deer sightings, if two or more people are together and see deer, then we only count those as 1 sighting. While I agree that it is likely that the same antlerless deer might be seen by different hunters on the same day in different parts of the property, the numbers and results are at least "directionally correct".
and here is the database sample
Dampland, that is amazing.
I've kept a journal with all my deer kills, my kids and my brothers as well. My info goes back to 1978. For the last 15 years or so I've kept a daily log of my hunts and kids hunts as well. Good Stuff.
Over the weekend I placed one trail camera over a large tree that gets rubbed every year. It was only slightly touched. I had another camera on a clover plot edge next to a overhanging branch that is perfect for a scrape. I moved a third to a scrape along a logging road. My hope is that this week the scrapes and rub really pick up. I'll post photos. BC
heading back up Sat. am, really hope to finally see some scrapes.
Praise to the heavens!!!!!!!!!! Just got back from a weekend at the shack. The Scrapes have returned!!, more than two weeks later than normal, but late is better than not at all. On top of that, I checked two of my trail cameras, and got a different 10-pointer on each camera. one of them is at least 4 inches outside his ears on both sides, and appears to have good mass as well. Not super tall, but there is no doubt in my mind that I wouldn't hesitate to send a Rage thru his cage.
Wow - 24+ inch spread?! That would be an awesome buck to have in the hunt area. Had one of those around for a few years that ended up being a Booner; it was shot midweek gun 2010 — the first and only time Kewaunee County had the state's highest-scoring typical in a season.
Here's a shot of it on the hoof (blurry, taken at dawn with point and shoot super zoom)
Not as big as the buck in the photo above. But in the photo (can't post it now, as I left the card in the camera) the buck is staring straight at the camera, it it appears that both ears are fully extended out to the side. It then looks like the base of the antler reach out 3-4 inches past the tips of the ears.
But he is not very tall, looked like maybe 6-8 inch tines at most.
For me, and my area, he is a wall hanger, but he is nothing like that monster shown above.
Was happy to see the sign really has picked up. Lots of little scrapes & a few rubs (none very big.) I didn't see squat each morning, but did in the evening. No bucks larger than a spike, however.
Naz,
After further review, the buck I was talking about seems to have a young face, so maybe not as big as originally thought, but I still think it is 20 inches wide.
What do you think? (left side of picture)
