Broadheads, Broadheads, Broadheads....
Pennsylvania
I wanted to start a new thread here about broadheads because I feel that an open discussion about them helps us all to learn. Everyone should feel free to debate about whatever head they like, love, dislike, hate, whatever, ......and do it all right here! :) The only thing I can sort of suggest to some is if these types of discussions make you emotional for some reason then I guess in those circumstances it might be best not to participate.....? Dunno, just a suggestion. So anyway, here's some of the heads I've used to kill deer and turkey here in PA. There were a number of others, but they either got pitched or lost. All of your pics, commentary, questions or whatever are welcome......
Good thread. My collection of used heads looks very similar. As far as what gives me confidence, Slick Trick is the one. This drawer full of blades that have been through deer, many of them multiple times after resharpening, is a testament to my confidence in them!
Good post, 'stick. Yep, you saw them correctly. :) Of the Rockets, the Miniblaster is the one I killed the most deer with. Although I haven't used mech's in years, The Wasp Jackhammer would be the one I'd use if I was forced to use one again.......They were the most durable mechanical that I ever used.
These days I stick with the stuff in the top row - very easy to resharpen, inexpensive, durable, and slide gently in to the bow mounted quiver on my recurve.
Steke', the Slicktrick is, IMHO, one of the most well thought designs of all time. The former owner, Gary Cooper, who is now deceased, was a real forward thinker. The 100gr Standards are now in Junior's quiver.......Sharpest blades I've ever seen.
I started out using the old Wasp cam lock and then moved up to the muzzy 130.From there,I used several different mechanicals until I found Slick tricks in 2003.I used to buy them directly from the owner of the company before they were a main stream head.I'm not saying they're the best but they do everything I want.They tune easily,penetrate well,hold a good edge and stay together.I've killed over fifty deer with them and never didn't have a passthrough.Never broke a head and every single deer has either dropped within sight or I heard them drop except for one gut shot 9 point that I recovered the next morning.I don't see how it can get much better than that.
Years earlier I killed a bunch of deer with different mechanicals.I never lost a deer because of one but broke enough blades and ferules to make me lose confidence in them.On top of that,I've tracked and help recover literally dozens of wounded deer when I was on a committee in a controlled hunt.I've seen deer shot with every mainstream BH imaginable,including most huge mechanicals.I can tell you for a fact that a bad hit is a bad hit and the size of the BH doesn't mean squat.Patience and woodsmanship recover wounded deer,not the size of the hole.
I want 4 things from a BH.They need to fly strait,penetrate well,stay together and be shaving sharp.It doesn't need to get any more complicated than that.
dougell, my first broadhead was the Wasp Cam-lock as well. Remember those goofy retention rings - what a POS! LOL
When Gary switched over to the "Mercedes Blades" on the Slicktricks it solved the blade wrinkling issue. Like you, I killed a boatload of deer with mechs and never lost an animal either. The last year I hunted with compounds, the "RAGE!" was my head of choice that season. Killed 4 or 5 deer that year with them, but 2 of the heads were completely trashed on routine shots - I gave them away. It's a myth deer die faster when killed with them. They have 2" of total cut, but so does a Muzzy 90 and I know which of those 2 heads has the durability issue.
Oh yeah, the good ole orange cam lock! Brings back memories. Mostly bad ones.
I've only used 5 different broadheads in my life. Started with the green wasp then the Orange. Then I shot muzzy 100 grain for about 18 years. I tried rage for a few years also but never got very good penatration with them. I switched to the slick trick mags 4 years ago and so far so good with those.
Ben
Never really liked pictures like this, but archery hunters are mostly consumed with blood trails and what causes a good one. I think the absolute worst myth is that you need a large head to get consistent blood on the ground......Wrong. You need a SHARP head. I shot this doe last season out of it's bed after I stalked it for about 25yd shot. The broadhead was a Delma MA-3L; it's only a 1" cutting diameter 3 blade. The blood spray was horrific - absolutely everywhere I looked there was blood.
Oh good, an emotion-free broadhead thread... hey wait... aren't 'like, dislike, love, and hate' emotions? :^)
I've used solid cut-on-contact heads like those in the top row, mechanicals like in the middle row, and replaceable blade broadheads like those in the bottom row... many of the exact models displayed and others.
In my experience, with very few exceptions, the types of heads in the top row have proven the most durable, reliable, reusable, resharpenable, and enter and cut easiest, wasting the least energy and momentum due to their superior designs. There are other benefits we can discuss as well. Just LOOK at em, it should be obvious.
My favorite is the 4th from the left, Magnus II, the glue-on model, and they're in my quiver now. They sharpen easily by various means, are quite tough and I've used them over and over again... the only thing I don't like about them is that I don't have to make them :^) I've got a couple dozen of them in various weights, probably have enough of them to last the rest of my life. To their testiment, they have a lifetime guarantee against ANY broadhead failure... and I've never had to send one back.
I've done testing on various heads to compare the pressure they require to enter and/or begin cutting and cut-on-contact heads win hands down... sometimes by incredible margins. Some mechanicals, like the Rocket Sidewinder in the middle row far right, can take over TEN TIMES as much pressure to begin a hole in the hide as a cut-on-contact head.(in my practical experience, this can create a few different negative effects on live animals). The Miniblaster on the far left was a little better. I believe I can predict from what my testing revealed about mechanical broadhead design that those two would likely fare the worst in that middle row... and certainly the entire picture.
Anyone remember the original Satalites and Kolpins? LOL, there's a couple a winners, aye?
Roger, is that a worse myth than, a large head makes up for poor shot placement?
"Roger, is that a worse myth than, a large head makes up for poor shot placement?"
Uhhhhh, good point. :) We'll call it a subset to the same myth......or theory.
Jeff, those Magnus' are in my quiver as we speak. Last night I sharpened them with a cheap carbide sharpener, finished with a Jewelstick. You can not gently run your thumb along the length of the blade without it catching skin and digging in. While I really like the Zwickeys, they just won't get as sharp; the Rockwell rating is just that much higher.
Yep, had both the Satalites and Kolpins.......Wasn't all that long ago they were still showing up on Walmart's shelves. They were among the worst of the worst in the replaceable blade category, IMHO.
It is very, VERY difficult to beat the 2 blade cut on contact for overall performance. The one caveat that I will throw out there is that in most circumstances it just needs to be wide enough. The Zwickey Eskilite and Magnus Buzzcut that are pictured in the top row are both only 1 1/16" wide. In my experiences(and Junior's) they can kill quickly, but just don't put much blood on the ground. The Magnus II is 1 1/4" wide and believe it or not that makes a difference.....a huge one really. It's still not what I consider a "wide" head, but is certainly wide enough.
Here are some examples of inexpensive broadhead sharpeners.......You can save a bunch of money by using cut on contact heads.
I found three more yellar packs of those exact heads in a box yesterday when I was searching for tools in the shop. That's a good feeling, knowing ya got a few extras :^)
I generally use a Lansky sharpener on them with diamond stones and then finish them with a few passes of a homemade ceramic 'steel' that I made with some nice leftover Kingwood for the handle. It gets em scary sharp too... but less 'portable' than what you have in that last picture.
I got that package of heads and it's twin in a trade from a fellow Leatherwaller, who happens to be a native Alaskan........Tucker Grose. You might have seen some of the pictures he puts up there of some whopper moose and other critters he's taken. The man is a hunting machine.
Yep, I have a Gatco system which is basically the same as your Lansky rig. They do a fine job as well.
Really hope Ed sees this thread and dissertates about the virtues of his knapped heads. They are amazing for a number of reasons.
Actually, I told a fib... mine is a Gatco too... I just don't expect folks to recognize the name/type like they do with the Lansky name, so sometimes use it for clarity's sake. Figures, you'd have one too :^)
Yep, Ed's stone heads are superb. I have a couple here. If I could knap heads like that, I'd never use anything else.
If we are talking Satellites and Kolpins, we can't leave out Savoras and Razorbacks.
Magnus II's were always one of my favorite glue ons. I also really like the original Eclipse glue on.
I started using WASP 3 blade and then switched to Slick Trick Standard 4 blades and have been happy with the accuracy and toughness. I also re-sharpen before the blades get so dinged up they become practice heads. Just don't see any reason to change.
Perhaps, but if considering such an occasion for a large head to offer such a benefit, to be fair, we should consider the occasions that they can be a detriment. In broadheads, bigger isn't always better. There are several more important design factors than width and some of the widest heads lack sorely there.
Very good, guys!.....This is what I was looking for.
When I 'compounded' my arrows though', I never found arrow velocity to be a limiting factor with regards to which head would make it to the mark and which wouldn't, when broadhead width/profile was the isolated factor.
As IBO rated bows began to break the 300fps barrier in the 1990's, everyone told me it was ridiculous because "broadheads would never fly right from them". Never found that to be the case. What ballisticians have instead proved is that as velocity increases so does stability.......The mitigating factor, guys, is and has always been, "tune". Yep that's it. A perfectly concentric arrow-to-insert-to-broadhead relationship has to provide a perfectly flying delivery system no matter what.........This is why I'm always preaching "TUNE!".......More on that later. :)
Yeah, I saw the thread, yesterday when I was trying to get out of here at 4:30. It isn't the same anymore...always had stuff all ready to go out the door......
Recognize a few of the heads in the first photo. The Delta has served me very well for a very long time. I still file sharpens 'em? ;) Cept fer bears and pigs...then I'll go the razor strop and all ;(
Stone points? Yeah, they're great..if done right..and that's not all that hard, really.
It's kinda hard jumpin' in here though, diplomatically speaking:)...as I'm about as old school as it gets. Back when I was shootin' Shultz's Hunters Heads, I was a deadly sucker out to about, oh, umm, never mind :)
When I went to the Deltas and wasn't quite as happy with the flight characteristics out yonder...I simply went to bigger fletch..and waited fer closer shots. Not too 'technical' there, on my part, huh??
Do put lil leather covers on my broadheads, if they're going in a quiver. Been more than a couple occasions when first few seconds on stand, I've needed yank a shaft...and had to laugh at myself 'cuz the cover was still on the bidness end..and had to pass one of those close encounters......
'course then more than a couple times I just went home cuz I forgot my arrows entirely.....
yep. I'm the raging epitome of the consummate predator. I don't even believe my own history anymore....
:)
...who needs a blood trail...when ya got crows and ravens trained to go find 'em ;)
Thanks, Ed......Are you actually getting some hunting done?
Roger, did go out yesterday. My B-day...see that thread:) First 'hunt' this year for me..other than a couple duck squats fer an hour or so first light. I'm desperate to get IN at our own place. (REALLY DESPERATE!!! :) :) My internal predator is driving me insane...but so is impending cold weather and some odd few tasks just had to be done so as not to need fret and worry all winter about my sloth ;)(hope none of yaz have a 'pet sloth' like I do :) Really, I guess I get about as much done as one kin get done..suffering with all nature of clinically recognized mental quirks:) I'd like to believe there may be an archery hunt or tow in my schedule this next week...but I've got a shoulder injury, common sense tells me not to 'push'. Least ways if I hope to avoid another trip under the knife for a spell??
I am not above going though, with no ability to actually 'shoot' :) Just 'seeing' is sometimes plenty. :) Consider myself fairly fortunate in the viewpoint this Life owes me nothing anymore, anything from here on out..is Gravy:)
Atta boy, Ed. That is what we've all always admired about you and what I wanted to hear, sans the shoulder thing of course. For a period of a couple years about a decade or a little more ago, I injured the shoulder/neck and was forced to put the recurve down......It's a bummer, but taught me much. Congrats on the birthday birdy too! :)
Stick...so good for me to see you gettin' wise at yer fairly early years :) I've done my best to see to it that the coming generations have every chance I had...to just love it like there's no tomorrow :) From yer posts...yer already there :) Looks like you've got yer own plate pretty full :) Dat's the good stuff!!
I presently am using Ace Standards in 125 grain. They fly great and are tough. I sometimes shoot Magnus Snuffers as well.
Bushy, the "Ace" is the oldest broadhead that I know of currently still manufactured.....late 30's I'm thinking/remembering. In fact, I think it's the FIRST broadhead manufactured. Prior to that guys made broadheads from whatever they had laying around, usually used saw blades. Anyway, it's interlocking ferrule and laminated center section to-the-tip makes it about the strongest anything I've ever seen anyway. In my book it's an A++ head. The metallurgy makes it silly simple to resharpen - among the sharpest heads out there. The compound guys can take this head and insert a 25 grain adapter to make the baddest 150gr broadhead on the planet, IMHO........Best of the best. :)
I've killed near all my deer with Bear Razorheads, but don't know exactly how many. Doesn't take a monstrosity to kill a whitetail; a groundhog is harder to kill than a deer.
I've also used Ribtek, Hi-Precision and even a Super-S by Savora..back in 1979. This year I'm using MA-3L and expect no less of an outcome. Easiest way to kill deer is hit em in the right spot...that takes accuracy...something most folks should aspire to more than anything else.
Anyway, There is a plethora of good broadheads out there. I've never used mechanicals since I always figured if something can go wrong, it will. This week I'll be out looking for deer with cedar arrows, MA-3 heads, and a Dave Mims hickory selfbow. Plenty enough potency for the wiley whitetails.
The first two deer I took were with Hilbre broadheads. But that was because that was what was attached to the Feline Archery fiberglass shafts that I bought.
The next handful were taken with Bear Razorheads, sans the bleeder blades.
Since then, it's been a pretty wide assortment, mostly dictated by arrow shaft - glue-on Zwickey Eskimos or Deltas for wood or Thunderheads or Muzzys for aluminum shafts.
Boy it'd be nice to see a pic of that Mims selfbow:)
I sure miss that fella... one of the most knowledgeable bowyers I've ever had the privilege to converse with. All the best with his bow, George.
.......and I got to handle that bow. :) It is VERY cool.
George is one of my favorite photographers :) I'd sure like to know the cross section of those limbs?? Appears to be deep core narrow limbed?? Not an easy route with hick.
Ed, I can take some elementary measurements for you...don't have a micrometer to get exacting. Here's some more photos.
That helps a lot George, Thank You. :) Yep, pretty narrah fer hickory. Man knew what he was doin'!! Simply, Beautiful Bow!! Is yer Grin as wide as nock to nock..when you're carrying it ??
Yeah Ed. It was an honor beyond measure when Dave wanted to give me the bow. There is a bit of the man in each one and he meant for them to be used. Here's an apt photo that I took a month or so after I got the bow in 2008.
Posted to Rog's thread, re: yer times on the mountain together. It is, alive and well. Thank you guys. Much.
George....
rabbit...
DCM bow...
awesome...
Congrats...
big THANK YOU... for carrying torches.
Jeff, that bow is extraordinary. Hard to believe it's handcrafted. That man knew what he was doing.
I'm sure it is, and yes he DID. It still do searches for specific bow design and tillering vagaries, invatiably get linked to message board threads of days gone by, harboring posts by David that he really invested/revealed himself in, and study them, foresaking others, looking for the hint of a trail I may have overlooked the last time. Occasionally, I do searches for his handle only too.. He was a free thinker and had a thorough, deep, comprehensive understanding and I have a lot respect for that and try to absorb and incorporate as much of his theory and experience as possible into my own bowmaking. Actually, there was never much we parted ways on... he just always seemed to be a step or three ahead :^)
Jeff, the overall profile, tillering, finishing, string notches......and I couldn't believe how dead nuts straight those limbs are.....George has a real treasure there for a bunch of reasons. Sad to see someone like that have to go.....
