I trap and I enjoy it. I think trapping has a valid place in game management. Removing excess predators help game species survive.
However, while only about 10% of the general population hunt a much smaller percentage trap. Trapping has been outlawed in several states because the majority of people consider it cruel.
We also have to remember that bowhunters are not the only people that view web sites such as bowsite. In fact, anti-hunters review sites like this to look for material against us.
While posting pictures of our bow kills, rifle kills, or even trapped animals are one thing, posting pictures of live animals still in the trap while obviously experiencing pain and suffering is another thing on a different level. While I can understand how pictures such as those can be viewed one way by like minded trappers, they can be viewed a completely different way by non-trappers. I fear that that in the long term they may cause more problems than good.
Just my opinion, and it's open for debate if you want, if not that's fine also.
I can see your point but I feel that has gotten us to where we are today in this country --- everyone needs to be politically correct - which I feel is just a bunch of liberal B.S. or it is some of us conservatives bending over to them or being ashamed at what we do.
I understand some may not like to see it - then just skip over it - if it bothers you - its is like changing the channel on the TV. Maybe the poster should state the pictures are graphic.
I know this is a bow hunting site but how many times do we get off subject??? What will be next - will the next time one of us who ask for prayers be accused of offending someone?
I think the world of Dr. Dave Samuel - but he sort of lost my ear at some event I went to listen to him (this was many moons ago) - he was talking how we as hunters should think of the general public and maybe not wear our camo in to walmart or the local Sheetz - to me that kind of thinking is saying we need to hide what we do. Now do I wear my hunting gear to those places - no I don't but it is because of scent control not because I am afraid I will offend someone!
I don't know to me it sort of seems like the continuing wussifcation and/or dumbing down of America. JMO
Gobbler - this ought to be an interesting subject! I hope we all can look at this and give our opinions and not get offended or upset at others points of views.
But every year I see attacks and losses in different states. While I'm not ashamed of what I do and don't feel like I have to hide it, I also don't think we should stick it in their face also.
We have to remember that we are in the minority and how we act is going to determine what happens in our future.
Maine just had to fight off another attack on their bear hunting this fall. The WVBA sent money to help th fight the anti hunters. The anti hunters are well funded and orginized. However it's the non hunting 80% that is going to determine our future. The more we do to keep from alienating them the better we will be.
The pictures in the other thread were good realistic pictures of trapped animals. Its not offensive to me unlike some of the images shown on tv these days that is pushed on society as normal. But that's a whole other topic and not for this site.
I say trapping is a close cousin of hunting and those who hate hunting will be offended of trapping too. If a person really uses their head they will realize it is not as bad as it is reported and not be offended
We can pretend and do all the little things that we think will appease them and it just won't work until the see the complete abolishment of whatever it is they are against. They will continue fighting for their stupid causes.
I am at the point now where I think we need to just tell them they are idiots and to mind their own business. I am tired of having to change because something offends them. You know maybe it offends me that my kids are not allow to pray in school but yet when I go to LA or Alaska I get to see all of these same-sex couples doing whatever they want to do and now we must accept it. Don't get me wrong to each their own - but I don't want to see anyone making out all over each other in public (man and women or woman and woman or man and man). But yet we have hunting forums and we need to watch what we post because it might offend - I am sorry it just sickens me anymore...... LOL man Gobbler you know how to stir the embers.
I agree with you about the anti-hunters, they are a lost cause and will oppose us no matter what and I don't really care what they think other than keeping an eye and ear open to what they are doing.
They say that there are 10% hunters, 10% antihunters, and 80% that don't hunt but understand why hunting is needed. Out of the 80% more understand hunting for food than understand or support trophy hunting. This 80% is going to dictate the future of hunting and trapping. That 80% is what I'm concerned about.
When we start doing things to decease the 80% is when we start having problems.
Ron Miller, Bowhunter, Hunter, Fisherman and Yes---A Trapper and proud of it
If you read my post I have NOTHING against trapping and I trap myself and enjoy doing it. It has a valid place in game management.
My concern, and I feel that you won't believe this was not directed at you, but it was precipitated by your posting of pictures of live animals still in traps. Although, we as trappers and hunters know that is a part of trapping. Even though I trap and support trapping I do have to admit that there is a degree of suffering that goes along with it that while I understand that can't be helped, It still bothers me. The same way that I am bothered when I hit a deer that I can't find.
I think that most humans don't like to see an animal suffer. That's why we try to kill in a quick and ethical way as possible.
The general population for the most part understands that the chicken or beef they buy in a grocery store was alive, but was killed and processed for them to eat. They just don't want to see it being done or hear how it's done. Is that naive? Yes, but it's just the way it is.
Ron, these are the same people that will determine our future to be able to hunt and trap. While we as trappers see pictures like that we understand what is going on. When the general population sees it, they don't understand and see a an animal that has been and is suffering in a leg hold trap. That is going to leave a negative impression on a certain percentage of them.
When and not if the antis ever try to pass no trapping laws in WV, as they have successfully done in other states the general population is going to determine our fate. If enough of them have a negative opinion of trapping then we may loose that priveledge .
In short, I support trapping and congratulate you on your trapping skills. I have no problem with the red fox photo, in fact I think it's a good photo. While I'd would like to see the bobcat and coyote photos in a private setting, I'm just not sure putting them on a public forum is the right thing to do.
Again, that's just my opinion and it really isn't anything personal, but out of concern for our priveledge of trapping in the future. I can assure you that if those live photos were taken and put in an anti- trapping advertisement the general population would not like seeing them and could help form a negative sentiment towards trapping.
Ron, I don't know how good your sense of humor is but I believe if I remember right any comment about that football player was sarcasm.
gobbler's Link
We can huff and puff and strut around and stick it in their face, or we can be smart, keep track of what they are doing and don't give them ammunition to use against us.
The choice is ours.
I'm amazed you didn't see fit to target very young predators too. Post a pic of a freshly weined bobcat for trolling bait.
For those of you puffing your chest out saying who cares what anybody thinks: I challenge you to take those pics and show your wives or daughters. I bet many will react in a negative way.
A few years ago a picture of a live bobcat in a trap similar to Ron's was put in the local newspaper. Local meaning small town WV....as conservative as it gets. The feedback was overwhelmingly negative. Then a back and forth ensued in the form of letters to the editor. It wasn't pretty and at the end of it I'm sure that many people were turned off of trapping.
Instead of hiding or keeping what we do under wraps with them - we should be educating them to what can happen to our wildlife if left to go uncheck. Also need to explain to them that it can seem to be cruel as to how we go about our means but mother-nature and other predators would be much much worse. Now that is not to say that we need to show blood and gore all over the place but seriously the pics I have seen have been perfectly fine.
We need to take the kids gloves off like we have being doing to protect our image and just educate! I think the same can be said with gun safety - maybe if we start educating our children within the school system - just maybe it might help with the school shootings.
Where this theory of trying to protect our children by not letting them see things and letting them believe things are like what they see in a Disney movie is doing more harm then good! In all avenues of life anymore we try to hide and protect the harsh realities of life. Well - guess what little Johnny or Little Suzie need to realize that we need to keep score of ballgames because there are winners and losers. Need to teach them to win gracefully and to lose and keep your chin up and try harder next time.
Again Gobbler - I felt the same as you (need to protect our image) - I think educating our children and the public would be a much better way to go. I don't think a majority of Americans know exactly how they get their steak, ground beef, chicken or pork chop!
Again the past 20 years or so has been basically the wussification of America and we must do everything to protect or hide the truth of what really goes on. I am just tired of it.
Seriously - we cannot have these pictures on a hunting site! How sad!!!! Then someone harvest a perfectly legal deer and gets blasted over it because it does not meet someone else's criteria --- Anymore we are - our own worse enemy. Do you realize that it was not that long ago the DNR felt like a spike was a inferior deer! Wildlife and Deer management is always evolving - what is good today or yesterday - will more then likely be deemed wrong tomorrow.....
As defined by Wikipedia:
"In Internet slang, a troll is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion."
I have been passing up small bucks for several years now. Killed a few decent ones in that time. I am sure the ones I killed were the ones that could have been studs the next year... I am sure most here would not have shot some of those deer that I chose to. Even though I don't intend to kill a small buck , I wouldn't condemn someone who chooses to.
If it had been posted there with no comment about ranking it there would not have been the discussion about it.
There's multiple deer and bear posted on the meat pole thread and I have never seen anyone asking for a ranking on their game. In fact, I can't ever remember seeing it anywhere before. If it's just about killing a deer with a bow what is the reason to ask people to rank it?