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These numbers are exactly trending like MI. The real numbers will be with the percentage of the harvest is with a crossbow and success rate. Right now it appears it's trending about 33-35% of total harvest.

As success rates increase and crossbow expand, the percentage of bucks killed will move towards the xbow and archery season. When it does, how do you think the 400,000 gun only hunters will react?

This trend was shown in NJ when eventually the archery season harvest eclipsed the gun harvest. This line is getting closer and closer in MI.

When push comes to shove, who will have more weight when WI trends this way? 225,000 archery and crossbow hunters or 400k gun hunters?

Simply put, the crossbow lobby lied. There is really no seen increase in hunter recruitment. Success rates are as we predicted. All they have done is switch the season which the deer was harvested.

But at what cost? Success rates for gun and archery hunters have remained constant for decades. Now there is a switch in harvest between seasons due to crossbow. When we trend like MI and NJ, we will be able to argue our success rates and harvest are not the problem vs. with full inclusion, we are grouped into the problem.

Allowing a separate license/season to be regulated by the DNR, we have a fighting chance to keep our archery season as is and reduction of the crossbow season. Thankfully, the DNR is already seeing the this problem after the first year.

65

Just asking here - do you think the DNR sees this as a problem or they are thankful for the revenue from the added licenses?

Just asking here - do you think the DNR sees this as a problem or they are thankful for the revenue from the added licenses?

Sorry Ronny, but this question is not off topic at all. It is 100% pertinent. Now, we'd heard your insults and blather multiple times already. Please get over "hearing yourself talk" and let Geitz opine. It is you who once again went off topic. You piss in everyone's cereal in any thread you don't start. PLEASE let Geitz reply. We've heard you already.

Or are we thrown out in the weeds never to be counted?

As for simply subtracted the disabled permits from the total, not so fast. You're forgetting a potentially very large segment of "archers" that were actually crossbow-shooting 65 and over folks. I know many just in my small area. Extrapolate that over the whole state.

Crossbows are very likely here to stay no matter what some might wish.

Exactly. That is why the DNR does not care at all that xbow licenses will climb and vertical bow might decline. As long as they get their $$$$, nothing will change.

But, and just in case they ever do think it is being impacted, some forward thinking individuals took the time to fight and put measures in place that will isolate the archery hunters from the crossbow hunters.

For this season and next only correct? And as Wallenfang responded to me in quotes about the xbow "probation period" Ha ha, it becomes business as usual. The 2 year tracking separate weapons will be the least impactful as other states have shown the xbow grows years 3,4,5,ect. The 2 year period was window dressing to placate the hardcore vertical crowd. Nothing of substance will come of the tracking. I hope all the forward thinking folks don't dislocate their shoulder patting themselves on the back as it is meaningless anyway.

Here in MI we have Xbow season included in archery season and they run at the same time and as of now there is almost a 50/50 split in harvest numbers between archery/crossbow and gun hunters with the gun hunters holding only a 2% harvest edge overall but a bigger edge in hunter numbers overall. The DNR expects that edge to close even more after a few more years but they do not predict it to ever pass 50/50 and doubt it will reach 50/50. If it did wouldn't that be the best of all worlds where all hunters regardless of weapon have the same odds of a harvest? I am not a Xbow advocate but trying to understand the resistance and big point behind the data?

If your seasons have string (archery and Xbow) kills at X and gun kills at X then what difference does it make if the season is separate or the numbers are separate for each? The kills all come from the same pool.

From page 9 of the regulations -

Conservation Patron and Conservation Patron Junior Privileges include: small game, spring and fall turkey licenses and stamp, pheasant stamp, deer firearm, archer, crossbow, general fishing, trapping (proof of trapper education certification or exemption is required), state fishing and waterfowl stamps, and most permit fees. Additionally, Conservation Patron license holders receive a subscription to the DNR magazine and vehicle admission to state parks and related areas, including a state trail pass. Note: The Junior Conservation Patron License does not include the DNR magazine, state park sticker and state trail pass.

My question is do I get counted for both, one or the other or neither?

Seems odd that they wouldn't publish this information.

"some forward thinking individuals took the time to fight and put measures in place that will isolate the archery hunters from the crossbow hunters. "

To what end? What difference does it make to overall harvest and how does it being separate impact archery in any way other than less hunters in the woods with you at the same time which is likely all it is about to start with? I understand some have a hate of the weapon itself but if it was inferior would we see the same resistance and how would it impact archery if it was included in the archery season if it was inferior? Other than more bodies messing up your hunt I don't get the point on why the data separation is the be all and end all since the seasons are separate right?

Since I have not hunted in WI since 2007 confirm Xbow hunters hunt 1st or 2nd or at the same time as archery?

The lie that always rubbed me wrong, we should see more hunter recruitment because of crossbows. Whenever that claim was stated I always took issue with it. Hasn't happened in any other state and doesn't even pass the common sense test.

I'm somewhat surprised by the high number of crossbow users. The gains will follow Michigan soon to outnumber archers. I'm glad there is a split in the license - forward thinking individuals came up with this. Thanks again Rancid! BC

Everyone is entitled to their ignorance but do all sportsmen a favor and don't continue to spread that ignorance to those who are uninformed but would really like to know the facts.

To the immediate harvest it will mean nothing. Maybe never amount to anything more than that. But, what it might mean to harvest should game managers see a sharp change is that each weapon and its' relevant impact can be managed independently from each other.

Next he asked; "I understand some have a hate of the weapon itself but if it was inferior would we see the same resistance and how would it impact archery if it was included in the archery season if it was inferior?

The answer is probably not as WI already had lessor weapon laws in place and they were generally well accepted by the hunting public.

Lastly, he said "Other than more bodies messing up your hunt I don't get the point on why the data separation is the be all and end all since the seasons are separate right?

That is probably the simplest answer. Having separate seasons would be a moot point if there was not separate data associated with each weapon. How could any scientific decision be made without corroborating data for each weapon/season?

Currently, crossbow hunters and archery hunters share the exact same season structure. That was set by law for the first two seasons. After the initial first two years, the crossbow season can be altered should the department choose to do so.

Goal of dept and legislatures apparently is to sell million plus license's. Seems to me it should be renamed DLS....Department of license sales. Getting old and idiotic when all we keep hearing is the need to create more hunters and opportunities.

It is and will always be about the money. The naïve will always be naïve. A blind man can see this one from miles away.

It may be different there cuz u r a few years behind us but our hunter retention and recruitment has changed. We just had a big debate on this recently and reg changes and weapon changes and Apr's all have had an impact in those areas. To say otherwise is to deny reality IMO.

Oh by the way....I have no problem with a xbow being used w/o a scope. With a scope and I dispise them in archery.

Whining on the internet carries very little impact to those lawmakers when they have the NRA and other groups telling them to their face that sportsmen want crossbows. Of course whining on the internet is much easier than actually making any real effort.

So you are stating the educated big game biologists with great pressure from hunters about lack of deer still over issued all these units by 100,000 tags? Remember, virtually no tags have been issued north of hwy 8. You also really believe hunters concerned about lack of deer will show constraint if tags are available? They killed 28,000 antlerless north of hwy 8 last year while complaining about lack of deer.

Why even have the votes at the spring hearings? The voters were not listened to. I don't care if 1,000,000 hunters were there; the 96-0 vote tells it all. Money won. The mark was not missed.

"Whining on the internet carries very little impact to those lawmakers when they have the NRA and other groups telling them to their face that sportsmen want crossbows. Of course whining on the internet is much easier than actually making any real effort. "

You call it whining. I call it discussion. That is what blogs are all about right? Wouldn't matter what hunters told the Legislature. They were clearing room in their pockets.

Now, break out he popcorn, cause that riled up the hornet's nest.

Matrix, I like your enthusiasm! Keep in mind that those same groups fought hard to not allow in xbows at all except for age 65 and the disabled. SCI took out the full page ad in WON. Those groups did not even want them for age 55. The votes went against xbows yet out of nowhere the Legislature landed a 96-0 vote for them and poof full-inclusion. What makes you really think the Legislature would change the xbow season now that even more money is flowing into the industry, via license sales, and probably still into the government's coffers? I'm not buying that at all. It sounds good on paper but it really is lipstick on the pig.

I still want to know how MN and IL have been able to fight off the NRA and not cave to full inclusion.

I believe you are questioning why Patron holders received tags good for both crossbow and bow.

There was an error discovered early when the license sales started. This error has been acknowledged by the Dept and next year it will be changed. They are surveying patron license holder to see what weapon they chose to use. Number will be skewed the first year but harvest figures should still be accurate.

Old Hunter, there were no other SCI chapters other than the Bowhunters that appeared at any of the hearings, so to say they were involved would be incorrect.

It was driven by the NRA and the WI Bear Hunters, along with a number of legislators who were too ignorant to understand what was being attempted and proposed.

What you are not grasping is that it is no longer up to the legislature to make changes. The law that was passed firmly puts that ability solely with the DNR.

"It was driven by the NRA and the WI Bear Hunters, along with a number of legislators who were too ignorant to understand what was being attempted and proposed. "

If the part about the legislators being ignorant on the matter is true, shouldn't the Governor, who is a hunter and for the sportsmen, have stepped in and not signed the bill into law?

Your question about the governor stopping it is not easy, as the people who pushed for the crossbow season are also sportsmen, just sportsmen with a different perspective. Unfortunately, we as bow hunters are a minority among the ranks of sportsmen.

I find it very interesting that the Legislature could not override any decision the DNR makes on the xbow season. I actually have a hard time believing that. Looks like lots of hope out there for the anti-xbow crowd.

There was no way the Governor would have not signed the bill. The bill was passed unanimously in the Assembly and all but one vote in the Senate. The bill had support of WCC, WWF, WBHA, NRA and others. If the bill had not been amended to separate season/license, it would still have passed as full inclusion with the same 4 orgs listed above supporting.

The DNR has the power to regulate the crossbow season as it regulates all other seasons. Any changes will go through the "process" beginning with public input, WCC, DNR, NRB, etc...

The crossbow lobby stated there would be know seen effect on crossbows being fully included. Based on this, they should have no reason to believe the season will ever be shortened. If it doesn't, it will always remain concurrent.

The amendment allows the DNR to regulate the season separately if harvest/success rates differ greatly. If the numbers affect other user groups, the Dept has the ability to regulate the season and shorten it if necessary.

If the statute was passed as full inclusion or concurrent seasons, it would affect all user groups( bowhunters, crossbow hunters, disabled and over 65 hunters). Personally, I know a few disabled hunter orgs who were concerned about this. By allowing the Dept to regulate vs. set in statute, the diabled and over 65 crowd still can be address if the crossbow season is shortened. I would very highly doubt the DNR or Administration would ever support a reduction of opportunity for these hunters.

There are very few legislators who hunt. When a powerful organization like the NRA supports something and them, it typically will be listened to.

Any idea why the NRA picked on WI but has not pushed MN and IL into full inclusion/concurrent seasons?

They found a couple of allies in the WI Bear Hunters and a certain new female representative. Add in a shady wanna-be lobbyist and the rest is history.

The entire issue is BS

10% more pre gun season is not significant?? Ya 10% of nearly zero bucks in buck only counties is a disaster... far from insignificant..and is the reason now the DNR no longer gets my jing either... not supporting worse hunting when in most counties in the north it was crappy before the xgunners.. now it's 10% at a minimum worse... I have better things to do then fight over deer with another 10% of the hunters..

And apparently so do a lot of other guys...according to sales..LOL..

When the Senate Natural Resources Committee approved an amendment to establish the crossbow hunting season to run concurrently with the deer bowhunting seasons in late summer, 2013, 16 people testified in favor of AB 194 and four individuals filled out slips in support of it. Nobody testified or filled out a slip against the bill. Senators Kedzie, Moulton, Tiffany and Wirch voted for the bill, while Sen. Miller opposed it.

Groups testifying in support of the bill included the Wisconsin Bowhunters Association, Wisconsin Crossbow Federation, Wisconsin Wildlife Federation, United Sportsmen of Wisconsin, National Rifle Association and two Wisconsin chapters of Safari Club International.

Naz, you are baiting out of season. The two people you mention never promoted the crossbow season, and as a matter of fact, are largely responsible for the separate licenses/season.

I would venture a guess that they, along with all other retailers of crossbows, sold many.

What is your agenda in only mentioning those two??

Mouldy's Archery website:

"and we are one of the largest Crossbow dealers in Wisconsin"

Buck Rub Archery website:

"Introducing The Crossbow Loft! Buck Rub has dedicated 1,600 square feet just to crossbows! Complete with a test range so you can try before you buy. A full service workshop and the largest selection of models and accessories in the Mid-West!"

I'm not a big fan but not opposed either, even though I won't be using one unless physically unable to draw bow. if you recall I stated last year that I don't care what my neighboring hunter uses to kill deer on his land, as long as it's legally done. There are very likely more whitetails shot illegally with firearm and bow each year than what we'll see with the crossbow harvest. How many guys hear shots well before and well after legal hours opening weekend of gun, for example? How many archers have you heard of that shoot baited sites after hours, or in non-bait counties, or use another's tag (etc.)? Yes, far more of us "do the right thing," but the number who don't is not minor, either.

According to what Capt. Mike said ("What you are not grasping is that it is no longer up to the legislature to make changes. The law that was passed firmly puts that ability solely with the DNR."), the DNR has complete control and therefore, could actually cancel the xbow season.

Of course they are now selling crossbows. Why wouldn't they? It is their business. If you are trying to suggest that they supported this issue for their financial gain I will tell you that are as far from correct as possible. I hope this post opens some eyes.

Konk, they will never be merged into one season unless the legislature changes the existing law. They very well might continue to run concurrently but they are set up as separate seasons and not even the DNR can merge them into one season.

I don't have an agenda Mike, not one horse in this race. Just pointing out some facts and sharing my opinions in this moment in time, as any hunter here can. You on the other hand have always opposed my posts. Maybe an agenda there?

Naz, while I usually do not agree with you, there have been times that I did. I guess that is because I am more interested in knowing impartial facts and not a personal agenda that is window dressed in "facts." Because I was present for much of the hearings, meetings and visits with senators and representatives, I have to question where you got your facts for this? Obviously it was at least second hand.

In either event, this whole issue is now water over the dam. Moulton and Kaz are enjoying crossbow sales, as they should, instead of allowing potential profits to go to others.

Pasq- yes, they both were well aware that there most definitely would be some sort of crossbow season. That was inevitable. I could go on and on about the many months that Kaz, our SCI chapter and the Bowhunters (Geitz) spent on fighting this issue. In the end, with all representatives and all but one senator in favor of the season, that there would be a season was handwriting on the wall that Stevie Wonder could have read.

At that point, we chose to fight for the separate seasons, something that at least left a possible open door if things went awry, and is also something that no other state has had the vision to do.

I will add that it was the archery manufacturers and not the individual shops that pushed this issue, along with all the other groups that have been named before.

What Naz terms "lipstick on a pig" is the only potential remedy available that will differentiate between the crossbow effort and the archery effort. Personally the only dressing I do to animals is field dressing but apparently some here have other likes. What the heck, we are all entitled to our opinions and likes.

Hunting was crappy before... and in need of serious management changes to improve it in 75% of the state... now in those regions it is at least 10% worse... I can't imagine future sales ever going back for Bow hunters... it's over...as bowhunters leave... they loose the power of a vote...and strength they once had... every year their voice will grow weaker and weaker... and at some point all there will be is gun hunting... you will shorten up the season... other states start Oct 1 for bow season... look for that loss next... then next you will loose days on the end as well...it's is a down hill ride for bowhunters never to recover... that's what other states need to take from this... that they will eventually loose hunters.. at first they will see excitement ...but in 10 years... good luck..lol

This is the first time I have seen someone who is in-the-know admit that. Many others have stated it was about money (me included) only to have those claims always refuted, and typically by people in-the-know. Even Howatt/Ronny said "LOL that its all about the money".

After one more year, we'll see how much money impacts what the WDNR decides to do.

Bowhunting is dying and will continue to die, how do you guys not grasp the concept????

Ya don't have the time..LOL.. but still had time to run illegal baits for his poor elderly father as he claimed for his BS excuse.. LOL..take RCs word for what you want..I can smell BS when ever he posts regardless which of the 4 handles he uses... but for guy who can't follow a simple baiting ban...complete ban.. pretty simple.. no grey area... but out right violated the laws on the books??? It's no wonder he thinks everything is fine... he has a different set of rules then the rest of us..... What a DB...