How many of you practice quality deer management? I’m not talking about putting out some plots or feeders to draw deer to small property like we have to do. I’m asking, about parcels big enough to manage for a balanced ratio of does and bucks, and allowing bucks to mature.
A few questions:
How many acres?
How many people are involved?
How long have you done it?
What are the harvest restrictions on the hunters?
What kind of progress are you having? Read that as how much bigger are the bucks now compared to the beginning?
Gobbler, tell all to all. Come on.
JR - it has not gone un-notice that your past couple of spikes have been true hogs! LOL we all have to admit there is some good entertainment on this site at times!
Ill also add that hunting is in a very fragile state because of declining participation nationwide.....thats a whole different thread topic. This forum has provided me a lot of benefit throughout the years because i feel connected to fellow WV hunters. Recently the discussions have become very edgy to say the least....me to blame as well as many others. Lets not forget that we have to stay united even though we disagree...(note to self). Debate is a great thing and having differing opinions is healthy.
I've always suspected it would take much larger parcels for a "total management" program. Your 1,000 acres figure is probably spot on. But.... that won't be applicable to virtually any of us. So... smaller parcels like yours and perhaps even less, will make for some good information for us.
Is your property farmland? Cattle, etc.? What percentage woods, fields?
Sounds to me like a really small amount of plots for 290 acres.
You said you noticed a difference--in what? Number of bucks? Age/size of bucks?
I found a plan between the USDA and previous landowners dated in the 1950s to convert all the fields/meadows into woodlands. Guess they werent into QDM back then. LOL
I have noticed improvement to maturity and number of bucks. I have kept trail camera pics since 2008 and there is a big difference between then and now. I now have multiple 3 plus year old bucks hanging out on property.
Many 3 year old deer are taken off that farm now, but only a few 140 to 150 class deer in the last 20 years.
When you think about, that's pretty restrictive for this part of the country, and yet only a handful of deer get to 4 or 5 years old.
This thread is about growing bigger bucks and thoughts about how to do it. Those that don't care, don't need to play. :^)
To answer your question.... I don't have a clue. The obvious answer would seem to be, they just don't live. But they surely aren't killing all of them.
It would be interesting to see what would happen if he'd change his restrictions and tell the neighbors, no more 100" to 115" deer. From now on, we're only shooting deer over 120".
On second thought... those boys probably wouldn't know what he was talking about.
So, my wife and I own 560 acres. About 85% woods and 15% pasture. I have 12 food plots from .5 acres to 3 acres.
Just my wife and I buck hunt, then get several friends to doe hunt for meat. We had been taking 2-3 bucks a year. They had to be 15 inch 8s or better. We always killed 3-4 does per buck.
Last year and this year we decided not to take any bucks. Last year we took 10 doe and will probably do same this year.
I have a series of ridges and valleys, most plots are on the ridges. During deer season probably 90% is treated as sanctuary, only go in to retrieve a deer if needed. I do go into during gobbler season and late summer to bushhog trails. My habitat ranges from open woods to thickets a rabbit has trouble getting thru. I do supplement feed from Sept. Thru March.
The last few years we were only trying to kill 3.5 year old deer. Now I'm trying to get a few older bucks, that's why we've taken a 2 year break from killing any bucks.
Now, I know some are going to wander off and get shot. But if I provide food, water, cover, and does that's all I can do.
This summer on camera I had 4 good 8s, a 9, 2 -10s, and an 11. Nothing huge but all between115- low 120s.
If they stay they should be nice next year.
That's one thing you'll NEVER, EVER, have be concerned about with me.
Glad you decided to participate.
A bit curious, and I expect WVM&M will be too. With all that land, all that time, expense and effort, why in the world are you needing to take the deer to the next level? Why aren't they already there?
Seems to me, you should have 160+ bucks running all over the place.
That is why I feel( and this isn't said to stoke any flames seriously) that people that kill multiple small bucks affects the ability of other hunters that want a chance at just 1 mature buck.
Edit: Looks like you answered my question in your previous post. We must have been on at the same time.
Wow - I would have thought you would have had a little better success with older bucks - with keeping 90% of it as a sanctuary. It sounds like you work at pretty darn hard. Certainly sounds like you are doing everything right....
The other thing is if I shoot one as a 120 then he isn't going to get any bigger either. If you notice in the second picture I posted of the 2 deer, the one on the right has a shed hanging below it. That is a shed from him from the previous year. He made a huge jump from a 2.5 to a 3.5, and would have probably done the same between 3.5 to 4.5 if I hadn't shot him. That's why we're holding off for a couple years in order to see what happens.
Over the years I've seen 3 or 4 140-150 bucks but never got a shot and never saw them again.
Another thing in my plan is to try and convert some of my pasture from cool season grasses into warm season grasses. It's much better for wildlife like Turkey and quail( if you have any), and makes one of the best fawn habitat there is. The price is based on acerage, but is reasonable. I think mine run 2 or 3 hundred. Learning about those trees was worth that much even if it saves one good oak tree.
Because of my one neighbors need to kill every buck they see I want to keep as many doe as I can till rifle season is over.
If the group of the 4 or 5 of them from that farm didn't shoot every buck they see, I would have more taken during the Oct doe season.
Seems every answer leads to a dozen more questions.
Looks like gobbler is doing every right on 500+ acres, yet his results are ... well.... what may be considered, modest(?).
Maybe WV just isn't conducive to (real) trophy potential... then again, there's southern WV, and those occasional huge bucks that get killed in every county.
GEE WHIZ! My head's beginning to spin.
I don't think we would ever have the 170+ deer as common as they do in the Midwest. But a deer dosen't reach its potential til 5.5-6.5. In most rifle counties with liberal buck limits it's hard to get deer past 3.5. Yes, an occasional one will pop up but on average that's about tops. If we could get a higher percentage of 4.5 -5.5 deer we would probably be talking 130-150, which would please 99% of the hunters.
The deer in the bow counties have a lot of Midwestern genes in them as most were restocked from Michigan, plus most of those big ones they kill that are 160+ are in that 5.5-6.5 range.
JayD....thanks for the sanctuary advice. I have over half of my property in sanctuary....not to say i never enter some of it but i stay out of it post august. It probably helps but the boundary gets gun hunted hard. This time of year bucks dont stay put.....as you already know.....many meet their waterloo. My property just isnt big enough to consistently have 4.5 year old deer. There are a couple hundred acres bordering me that is hunted by a large group from holmes county ohio.
Jim, I too am in strong favor of a one and done. However I would also support a one buck archery limit and a one buck gun limit rather than a two buck limit any weapon. I do not agree with the current three buck limit.
And I come in and find one of the best, most civil threads about wv hunting and qdma I Have ever seen
I grew up hunting the mountain state, both parents from there, and hunted, owned land and managed it up until about 5 years ago.
And then I just said I'm done.. Went and bought a farm in Ohio.
All of things you mentioned I was up against. But the biggest thing for me was the multiple buck limit. Its the mindset that it brings on.
Thanks everyone for the compliments .
1) Bow season comes in Sept 1st and goes out Dec 31st. 2) 2 Buck limit one with bow and one with firearm. 3) Doe harvest set by game biologist that is county or region specific. 4) Gun season starts Monday before Thanksgiving and last 2 weeks, then black powder/ muzzleloader for one week. That is the end of gun hunting for deer. 5) You can kill your doe all the first day of archery or the last day of muzzleloader. I don't care if your county wants 5 doe per hunter or 2 its up to you how and when to get them.
This would make much simpler regulations I think. I would think within a year or two we would be surprised by the amount of bigger bucks and a healthier more balanced deer herd would could have. What do you think fellows?
jwc3: Excellent. I'd vote for that--if I could. :^) It allows the state to sell extra tags and makes region/county antlerless limits much simpler. Heck, you could have a one buck limit, but then, sell a second buck tag. EVERYONE would buy that second buck tag. Can you imagine how much revenue that would generate? Antlerless season becomes concurrent rather than a separate season. Yes sir... I like it.
CGBowhunter: I agree completely with your entire post. It's human nature to stretch the limits of what's legal. If a hunter can take a certain bag limit, many of them try their best to take the maximum. Freedom of choice is uniquely... well... AMERICAN. As long as they stay within the rules, I'm fine with it.
We (humans) aren't very good at self-control. :^) That's why I believe the control mechanisms "have" to be mandated to us by the rules (legislation, regulations, etc.)
2. If we get an elk herd established, then set up a bonus point system like western states do. That would provide a huge revenue stream. You could take it a step further and make it like AZ and NV does, and that is to make everyone buy a base hunting license to participate in bonus point system, residents and nonresidents alike.
3. Make landowners buy a "landowner" license for a small amount like they did for the senior license, something like 25 dollars for 10 years . That way the DNR can get Federal matching funds from the PR fund. That is the federal tax on all sporting equipment sold. It's money we have already paid in taxes on our sporting equipment.
The Feds give it to states based on the # of licenses sold. If a landowner would pay 25 dollars for a 10 year license, then the DNR could collect 10 years of funds( that we have already paid as a tax). Right now , the DNR dosen't collect a penny on landowner tags because they weren't sold. I, personally don't think 2.50 a year would be a huge burden, and it would allow the DNR to collect hundreds of thousands of Fed money. Again, tax money we have already paid.
These are just a couple of ideas to increase revenue stream to help offset buck tag sales.
As a bonus, the income allowed me to pay off the farm and build the cabin .
QDMA is a change in mindset and a long term plan. It's not a one year project. But it can be fun and rewarding .
Land is a great investment, plus by keeping quality trees like oaks, hickory , and cherry is like having money in the bank gaining interest for every year they get bigger.
Deer female herds need 60 to 70% kill rate to hold the population in check, in good habitat. No where is that accomplished. No where. It is simply a full time job to kill the does at a rate necessary if you implement good habitat management. And then you aren't going to accomplish it. Deer that have the nutrients they need, to be the best they can be, are all but nonexistent in their world during daylight. Minus the rut. So, QDMA is a term that describes a practice not a condition.
You need lots of land. Lots of good habitat. The kind where deer sightings are very infrequent and nearly nonexistent. Deer are individuals. All you can do is the best you can for what you got and, shoot does like it is your job. Put out trail cams on something besides corn piles, once you do this, and your education to what truly exists will begin once the rut starts. God Bless
I know 560 acres is not a complete home range for deer - but good gracious making 90% of it a sanctuary - the big boys should be sticking to your place like a fly to a glue trap!
It sounds like you are doing everything perfect -- and the best part is you are having fun doing it! I am not as fortunate to have the acreage you do but I am going to completely redo all of my foodplots next year - I am really liking what I am hearing and seeing about the Eagle Forage soybean mix and then overseeding some brassicas and wheats or oats in August. Really leaning towards more protein for them here.
Right in between the plots - I have an area that gets a little swampy during wet weather - just damp during the summer time though - - been really trying to figure out what to do with it. I was sort of wondering if I mounded areas up a bit and made a little orchard out it - what it would do. The area does not get completely water covered just pockets unless we have a pretty big flood - the creek is about 100 yards away. I started planting sawtooth oaks here and some chestnuts several years ago - which will make sure I have hard mast each year and I fertilize them - best part is they produce every year and do so at a young age. The deer and turkey seem to really go for them before the original oaks here on my land.
Most of my plots are clover. I have 2-3acre plots that I plant buckwheat , soybeans , and peas in during the spring. That provides a lot of high protein forage plus the turkey slam the buckwheat when it goes to seed. Then in the fall I till them under and plant a 50/50 mix of buck forage oats and winter wheat. I occasionally will plant brassicas but they shouldn't be planted more than a couple years in a row in the same plot cause they really suck the nutrients out of the soil(which is good for deer) plus there's a nematode in the soil that will destroy the root if numbers get built up.
I have apple trees, chestnut, and sawtooth oak that are about 15-20 years old but the trouble I have is when they produce well the bears tear them up. They climb up high enough to break or chew off the limbs. Then it takes a year or two for the trees to recover enough to produce again then they repeat the process. Kinda frustrating!
I've planted some of the eagle forage soybeans the last year or two and have been pleased. I think next summer I may try a whole 3 acre plot with them.
I know we probably have a new state record , but overall this wasn't a great year for antler growth state wide. Last year we had a bad mast failure and a bad winter. That takes a lot out of a buck especially after rutting. It takes longer to rebuild his body in the spring which will cut into antler development.
Gobbler did you plow the eagle soybeans under this year - was talking to a guy in Maryland who said they are really hammering the pods right now on his.
I don't think the eagle forage beans produce many pods. It is a strain developed to produce more leaves and forage at expense of producing many pods. I may be wrong since I've just started using some?
When did you plant yours and how did it grow?
