Lower buck limit or APR's? You decide.
West Virginia
In an attempt at having a better buck herd and overall more enjoyable experience in WV, would you support a lower buck limit or APR's? The only way for improvement is one of the two. Which one? Other input?
At first I was a one buck limit guy and actually that is what I still prefer but understand that for the majority of hunters in WV it is just too much too soon.
I have changed my mind into keeping the buck limit the same with APR's or reducing to two bucks a year but with APR's installed. This way I see as a compromise and allows the DNR/Commission to keep their precious extra buck tags.
I also like the idea of even more counties going to an earn- a second buck requirement. I like the idea of making a nonresident additional buck tag cost a lot more money but keeping their doe tags the same as before.
I hate the thought of only having exceptional years after previous year's failures. I hate the fact that the only way we manage to get bucks a year older is to have a dismal season the year before. Unfortunately, something needs to change. Let's see a deer herd where both bucks and does have varying age structures with an intense rut due to adequate buck to doe ratios.
Before anyone states that hunters like me only want pope and young deer in actuality I would like to see 16 inch eight points in the woods. I hunted all year to see five bucks, the largest was a twelve inch wide six pointer and a basket eight. I'm sure 3 or 4 of the five bucks died so some other hunter can have meat while passing up a doe. The days of eight does and a spike coming into a field so the hunter shoots the spike needs to be over.
I'm good with either or both. I will help with all the support I can. I have been going to Commission meetings for years to try and get something done, but it takes more than one person. Something like this is long past due for our state.
I agree. Someone mentioned earlier that all we needed to do was go to the commission meetings and we can get some action. The only problem I see is that most hunters are so reluctant to change. APR is a start
My solution, A one buck limit when you buy your sportsman license, You can purchase an additional "bonus Buck" tag at any time during the season to be used in your season of choice, archery, rifle or ML, for a season limit of two antlered bucks per year. This way you will lower the buck limit to two and the DNR will still get revenue through the bonus buck tags. Keep the earn a buck for the bonus buck tag and set antlerless limits based on county by county needs. What do you think?
I am sorry for being an idiot but what is APR?
I wouldn't mind both, but any improvement I'm for
I'm not sure the state or commissioners are ready for a one buck limit. However, most are ready for change in a positive direction.
Iam really not in favor of APR, Hunting regs are confusing enough as it is,However would like to see a two buck limit,WV still has a lot of ( i got my buck)hunters, so cant change to much to fast.
lower buck limit...too many of whoops, that rack doesnt qualify so ill just leave it here
I'm more worried about our overall deer herd numbers. Our deer here in Mason county is declining badly and I would guess some of you are seeing the same thing.
I would be in favor of either. I would prefer one buck. One thing that worries me is the phone in check system and the RG tags. Having been a licensed sales agent for 20 years I've been hearing alot of talk about extra buck tags for firearms. Guys are saying that they will no longer purchase them and only purchase the class N tags. In other words knowing that they dont need to take their bucks to be visualy verified,they will be checked in as does! Their exact words are "why would I spend $21.00,now it only cost $10.00." I guarantee next years buck gun harvest numbers will be way down on paper. Sad
Off topic, but our numbers are off too in Jackson Co., hookman. I've not seen nearly as many deer this summer and fall as in years past, and a local official told me today the kill report was off 36% the first week.
I lean towards lowered limits on bucks. I've found several, less than legal bucks left laying on wma'a with antler restrictions. I think antler restrictions are a great idea but unfortunatly, they're like locks and posted signs, they only apply to honest people.
APR are the way to go, they work I hunt one of the WMA with the 14inch restriction. We run cameras year round and this year we had 15 different bucks that met those restrictions in the area we hunt and we don't get them all on camera. Yes people kill small ones but, not to many. Saying it wont work because to many people kill 11/2 olds is like saying the bow hunting only counties won't work because to many people use guns.
Boy, you guys have got it going now.
lower buck limit: one and done.
I lean towards APR's at this time and give the Commission/DNR time to see the sky will not fall.
I agree that we still have the "I got my buck hunters". I hTe to say it but they rule the state.
No one looks at the deer checked in now.
Jimmy is spot on. The deer kill is way down. Don't care what they tell us in their after season harvest reports.
I prefer the APR but would like to throw in the earn the second buck with a 2 doe harvest before you can get the second buck.
Said the so called hunter who has not harvested a deer in working on 3 seasons now. I could have shot a small 4 pointer but he was young. a small 8 pt was about 20 yards further than I am comfy shooting. and well the alpha doe... Yeah that was my fault I screwed that up and kinda missed. I have the arrow on my dash as a reminder. it has a clump of hair where it grazed the back. I will kick myself for years to come for that ...
lower buck limits not apr. Ask yourself what was your first buck? Mine was a 4 point and I was tickled to death. Now tell a young kid that they can't shoot that buck because it is too small and see how long they want to continue hunting. Give us one or two buck limit and then the hunter can choose. Sure it is easy for us as older (experienced) hunters to say that we need to see bigger bucks but we need to think about younger and even senior hunters. We have enough rules in America today without adding some more on it
APR's do not apply to youth or seniors.
I don't like APR's for the same reason bownut points out, plus the ground checking that occurs. I also think with electronic checking it would be easy to say the 4pt was an 8pt. making it look like the age structure is much improved.
Off topic but interestingly enough, WVBA is going to be conducting a membership survey on a lot of these important issues to make sure the Board is representing the views and desires of the membership at the Commission meetings. If you are a member you'll be getting a survey soon.
some good points. My first deer was a 4 point also. See? You will not be able to satisfy everyone. Doing a survey is good but only gets opinions from a small sample of bowhunters. The DNR could do the survey to all licensed hunters. But I feel that most people do not want a reduction or APR. They just want to kill a buck. Any buck. I would like to see bigger deer as well but most just want to see a deer.
The DNR has the sectional meetings that is well advertised ahead of time. But they can't make people go to them.
Just like voting, only a small percentage of people vote, but then they are vocal about the results .
And if only 30% of the people vote in the elction, well that's still considered an election. We don't throw the results out.
If you only get 5% of sportsman to fill out a questionaire then maybe you needto try a different way.
I hope the next Commission meeting is well attended.
By the way, I hate the earn a 2nd buck rule! I think it makes the regs totally confusing because it is different depending the county your are in, not to mention it applies to archery season and then again to gun season.
I think if you paid for the tag you should be entitled to use it and this rule forces someone to buy a doe tag.
Notice I said "I think" - all my personal opinions.
"APR's do not apply to youth or seniors" What about the people who don't start hunting until later on in life. How long would they stay interested if we had APR? Lower your buck limit and let them shoot the size they want. The size should not matter as much as the excitement of the hunt.
Well the DNR will go by what they think the masses want obviously because there are a few people that attend those meetings and they never pass what those guys propose.
I disagree , the enhanced penalties started after I went to a couple of meetings complaining about the low fines for trophy deer. I was the only person to complain about it. It got them to start thinking. Next, I was put into contact with a Senator and it took off from there.
I know sometimes it feels like no one is listening but, that's one example where one voice changed the system.
It may take more people and more persistance to change some things like buck limits but it can be done.
Tom, I understand what you are saying , and agree for the most part. However, if we did have APR, it wouldn't be like it is now. In just a few years there would be more "legal" bucks running around. You wouldn't be taking their chance away specifically, you would just be advancing the age of the buck they would have a chance at by a year or two.
^^^ Boom^^^
What about the people who don't start hunting until later on in life. How long would they stay interested if we had APR?
As an adult, I think we can show enough restraint to wait on a buck that meets APR's. I have no idea why we as a state cling to our option to kill spikes and three points.
Littlebear,
Making class N stamps able to be filled in any season takes away the discrepancy in cost between a bowhunter and a gunhunter filling the doe tag before the second buck.Class N stamps should be able to be filled in bow, gun, or muzzleloader season.
ITS NOT ABOUT WHAT THEY THINK THE MASSES WANT. They currently have little communication between sportsmen and the DNR. Not enough sportsmen attend meetings and the DNR/Commission hasn't looked for other ways to reach sportsmen. When we have 300k+ sportsmen and they get under 2,000 replies to regulation changes a different approach is needed.
^^^ Boom^^^
What about the people who don't start hunting until later on in life. How long would they stay interested if we had APR?
As an adult, I think we can show enough restraint to wait on a buck that meets APR's. I have no idea why we as a state cling to our option to kill spikes and three points.
Littlebear,
Making class N stamps able to be filled in any season takes away the discrepancy in cost between a bowhunter and a gunhunter filling the doe tag before the second buck.Class N stamps should be able to be filled in bow, gun, or muzzleloader season.
ITS NOT ABOUT WHAT THEY THINK THE MASSES WANT. They currently have little communication between sportsmen and the DNR. Not enough sportsmen attend meetings and the DNR/Commission hasn't looked for other ways to reach sportsmen. When we have 300k+ sportsmen and they get under 2,000 replies to regulation changes a different approach is needed.
So you think the DNR will reduce the buck limit or implement APR just because a few of us want it?
And getting them to raise penalty fees for illegal deer is way different than reducing the buck limit. That is money in their pocket.
so if they are not listening to the masses in making their decisions does that mean they are listening to the few that want changes? Or is there another reason for allowing the huge deer limits we have now? I am missing something. If it is because of money I can not see them reducing anything.
The WVDNR/Commission does NOT know what the masses want because they have ineffective ways of communicating with sportsmen. 300 thousand plus sportsmen and get under 2,000 comments back? Wouldn't work in the private sector.
However, if the people with a voice want something then the voice should be heard. If we have 20% turn out at an election that is what we go with no matter what the 80% wanted that the had no interest in showing.
I advocated for the N tag use in any season for the four years I was President of the WVBA.
Just about the only thing the Commission ever did that I requested was put a crossbow bubble on the check tag so that Xbow weapon kills could be counted seperate from archery kills.
Well, that and the early start to the archery season.
Both of those took a long time and patience for it to finally happen and the later had been requested long before my term started.
I would support either one, but would prefer one and done. If APR were to happen I would rather not see the spread of the antlers in the regulations. I agree that something needs to be done. This is the fourth year I have hunted my neighbors farm. The first year I thought I was in deer heaven. Deer everywhere. I let at least 8-12 bucks go and finally harvested the buck I was after. The past three years have been a total opposite. I have not seen or have had any pictures of a buck I would even think about shooting. The does are not even around now. I believe the coyotes are becoming a problem and the amount of deer we are allowed to take. I see a lot of people on here say that it is about the money to the DNR and I agree, but another driving force that is not talked about is Insurance Companies. I know a guy who owns his own insurance company and is also an avid turkey and bow hunter. He has said many time that insurance companies want the deer gone and but pressure on the DNR. I am not saying this is true, but I have heard this by a person who owns an insurance company. I also think if Sunday hunting was allowed state wide it would bring in more money.
I am in favor of lowering the limit to 2 bucks AND APR. The APR would be easier to enforce and lowering the buck limit would also help our buck herd. You could then stop the earn a buck program because hunters would kill a doe or two to lengthen their season. Also I feel the earn a buck program is just confusing to the not so die hard hunters who don't live eat and breath hunting like several people I know. I don't like earn a buck restrictions on a RG tag you have buy in advance.
You still would not stop your good ole poacher or common everyday rogue hunter but with APRs they may just have a harder time sneaking one out. I despise those who trespass and kill over the limits so I say triple the fines and make them think if its worth the crime
2 buck limit for me with AR's for both bucks. Just like Gobbler said even for the younger hunter it would only be a matter of a few years until an increase in nicer bucks would be seen. Maybe have a waiver for the first year or 2 for anyone 17 or younger for the AR's.
I would like to see it passed that if you shoot a doe during the early doe season on a N tag that it can be used as your doe to earn a buck instead of having to use RB tag.
And I would like to see Sunday hunting allowed on the Sunday b4 rifle season starts in the 4 bow only counties or change the wording in the Sunday hunting part of the regs that says Sunday hunting is not allowed in ALL COUNTIES on a Sunday preceding a Monday opening of a Big Game season.
Also would like to see a 1 buck limit for non-residents with a reciprocal element that would allow a maximum of 2 bucks if their state allows multiple buck harvest for non-residents.
Also besides meetings - remember we have social media to contact officials and email that we can use to contact all of these people and then attend the meetings when they are close to you. Plus fill out your bow season surveys and put a note on them as to changes you would like. And remember be polite but just do it. Remember these two things though - squeaky wheel gets the most attention and you catch more flies with honey than vinegar.
The 14 inch width on APR virtually assures that a buck is at least a 2.5 year old buck. In WV it's kinda rare but a 1.5 year old deer can have 8 or even 10 Pts. That is why the 14 inch rule was implemented on the older age management hunting areas. By shooting a 12 inch 10 pt you are killing off a genetically superior deer. They wanted to protect those deer until they got older.
How many hunters need to attend these DNR meetings before they will make changes. I have attended they give you a couple of minutes to talk then move on. What needs to happen to make a change?????????
I agree that changes are needed. I am not a big fan of APR because your younger bucks that are going to make your biggest older bucks get killed and the smaller older bucks get the pass. I know that is a minority of the buck population but it is how I think. I like the idea of limiting the bucks to 1 or possibly 2 if earned through shooting does. No matter what, I want to see changes. It is time the state does a better job managing the deer herd for quality, not just the deer numbers. That will increase an interest in hunting and exciting hunting experiences. Hunting yearling bucks versus a more mature age class is a different sport all in itself and one that a majority of hunters would prefer no matter what they want to preach.
wvmule - what prevents the buck you are speaking of from getting shot under a 1 buck limit? Also I have seen a ton of times when a smaller kid or average kid have hit a growth spurt and surpass the kid who was bigger at a younger age. I just don't put much faith in that high grade theory that it makes as big of deal as they say. Would love to know if there is research out there that shows a 1.5 year old 8 point will always turn out to be the biggest buck.
Under a somewhat controlled environment type of hunting situation - I can see this high grade theory be used with possibly some good results. In a public hunting situation that 1.5 year old 8 or 10 point gets killed no matter what the limits are. And seriously how many 8 or 10 point 1.5 years olds are running around on public land?
But we each have our opinions and get to express them here.
2 buck limit, your choice of seasons. No to the APR. The 7 point I took this year in Clay Co. I had one opportunity to see he was a decent racked buck and I made a decision to shoot. I did not see his rack again till he cleared the tree in front of me as I was sitting the edge of a tram road on the side of a steep mountain and he was walking towards me right at the edge so he could see down the side. and all the timber had him covered. When he cleared the tree I was already at anchor and pin was settled on where he was going to step. I didn't have time to count points, or verify he was 14" wide or anything else.
Once I make the decision to shoot, I DO NOT look at the headgear.
How many hunters need to attend these DNR meetings before they will make changes. I have attended they give you a couple of minutes to talk then move on. What needs to happen to make a change?????????
IF WE ARE NOT BEING LOUD ENOUGH TO BE HEARD BY THE DNR/COMMISSION THEN WE NEED TO BE LOUDER.
wvmule - what prevents the buck you are speaking of from getting shot under a 1 buck limit?
BOTH APR'S AND A ONE BUCK LIMIT WILL EVENTUALLY LEAD TO HUNTERS BEING MORE SELECTIVE. BOTH WILL PROTECT YOUNG BUCKS BECAUSE LESS HUNTERS WILL FEEL THE NEED TO BLAST AN Immature BUCK WHEN THEY HAVE A REALISTIC EXPECTATION OF SEEING A LARGER, MATURE BUCK DURING THE SEASON. GIVE TWON YEARS OF A ONE BUCK LIMIT AND THE Occasional 1.5 YEAR OLD EIGHT POINTER WILL BE MORE LIKELY TO BE PASSED UPON BECAUSE HUNTERS WILL SEE 16 INCH EIGHT POINTERS WITH MORE REGULARITY.
I would love for something to happen to increase ya chances of seeing more rack bucks that's for sure rather it be a lower limit or point restriction it's got to help in some way I know when I'm out hunting and all I see is does and small bucks it gets harder to stay excited about being out there but when you are seeing rack bucks more often you have more get up and go and the more racks you see the more tags people will want to buy because they believe the odds are better but what is the best way to do that?
How many hunters need to attend the DNR meetings before they make changes?
I don't know, but when 100+ arrived in buses, vans and cars at Flatwoods to protest the rumor of a gun season in the bow only counties a few years ago - that certainly sent a message and those rumors died very quickly.
It's being talked about now , stay tuned.
How do you find scheduled DNR commissioner meetings for mext year. Im looking for a schedule and cant find one. The information is probably out there but it isnt really obvious.
They already gun hunt in the bow only counties. Lol
They already gun hunt in the bow only counties. Lol
The next meeting is usually scheduled for Feb. But I haven't heard a date yet.
