What if the scene was at a local bow shop and the owner and his buddy were laughing about issuing illegal hunting licenses and you were the one standing there listening to the conversation? Now we already talked about this, but I'd love to hear an honest reply to how you would feel about your actions or lack of actions being broadcast for your family and friend to see? Would you be proud or embarrassed? Maybe a bit ashamed?
We gave certain people all kinds of sh_t last year about the show Chasing Tail and how it presented bow hunters in a bad light. Did it really do that? I'm beginning to wonder if it was closer to the truth than I would like to believe.
In the scenario you described, I personally would at a minimum completely lambaste them and I sure hope anyone else here would do the same.
My brother and I just looked at each other and knew we had to intervene. We could not just watch and do nothing.
So we did. The five of us gave that drunk the beating of his life. He will never forget the night he got his ass kicked by five guys.
My old boss used to tell me, Toonces, you're a dick, but at least I don't have to worry about you stabbing me in the back, you only leave gaping chest wounds.
you're too damn funny today, thanks for the laughs!
Pat - I asked to be on Naked and Afraid but the producers said they were afraid to see me naked!! And who's Rob, Dr Deer?
Toonces - I agree with your boss! You're straight shooter, you pull no punches and I like people that speak their mind. I don't have to agree with you to say that. I don't know you well enough to agree with the dick part, so I'll leave that one hanging. :)
FYI - I stood in front of guy hunting turkey illegally and called the TIPS line. I made sure I was out of the lethal range of the shotgun first and I made sure he could hear me, I'm just crazy, not stupid. I didn't rat out anyone, I turned in a criminal stealing my birds. He was a dick!!
you sound like you hang out with the worst sort of people around! Holy cow, I don't KNOW of anyone doing any of those things, and if I did I wouldn't hesitate to call the cops! I couldn't sleep at night knowing that there were guys breaking the law and I did nothing.
When I offered to take Duncan out hunting with me I told him one thing before we ever set foot in the woods,.....I do things the right way!! If you're the type to hunt after sunset, shoot at a running deer, take a shot on private land without permission, etc than I'm not your man for showing you how to hunt. But, he agreed to every comment I made.
I guess he wouldn't have a problem finding other "hunters" to show him the ways around the laws if he wanted. Sad, very sad.
As far a consequence, I am glad my purgatory on these boards wasn't forever. Clearly, I was involved in C.T. and just saying "I had no editorial control" sounds like an excuse. There was a lot of portrayal there, but the basic personalities of the cast were actually true. One is less experienced, one is ornery, one is laid back, one is hilarious and one is highly functioning (guess that's me). But the direction it took was wrong, which is why it's not on anymore and I believe it's breathed its last. For me, that's a shame. Probably ego here, but I liked flipping channels and seeing myself on History.
You are seriously one high strung dude. You scare me a little.
Toonces - high strung?? How so? Are you referring to calling the cops on criminals? I would put that in the category of being a responsible hunter.
Do you have kids? If so, do you teach them to always do the right thing, or it's ok to ignore someone being bullied, or it's ok for them to hang out with kids that steal or drink or do drugs?
The next time you're in the car with one of your buddies and he stops to buy drugs as the cop pulls up, let me know how it works out when you tell the cop you were just ignoring the crime.
It's easy to ignore wrongs in this life, whether they're illegal,unethical or immoral. It's hard to take a stand and do the right thing, it takes balls to stand up for what's right. I think it's worth doing the right thing, that's all.
So now I have girly feelings, wear a skirt, I'm high strung and,..... fill in the blank.
Your turn.
Your about to climb down and you notice some flash photography going off in the woods 100 yards away, on a property you know you are the only one with permission. You go over and find a joyous bow hunter, with his bow, over a great buck. He said he hunts the next property over, or the one next to that. He said he tracked this deer a good long ways, and it barely bled. It looks like a liver hit. You look for a backtrack and there isn't one to find. He's 100 yards from the property line, and `100 yards from a road. He can't give you the name of the land owner, because his partner signed the landowner up and he left his pack back at his tree stand hoping for a shorter trail. But he does't have paper for where he is at the moment, because only you have that. Do you: A Help him drag and take hero shots. B Congratulate and split. C Insist on seeing his permission form D Call DEEP and let them figure it out E Pull an arrow from your quiver, poke it in the deer and claim it. F Something else
If I discovered he was actually hunting on the land illegally, I'd discuss with land owner and let them run with it. It's their land, not mine. I dont have the right to allow access or deny it.
I have no problems with what he dose because. Every Deer harvested is tagged and paid for so the DEP get their money. No deer is wasted and many families have meat in their freezer that normally would have to choose between paying for heat or paying for meat. Because he hunts so many different properties there in no worry of wiping out all the deer from one area.
Is this guy breaking lots of laws? YUP, But he puts more money and time into whitetail management than most. He makes sure every deer shot is recovered, sometimes spending a whole day searching when he could be hunting. Turning this guy in to a game warden would do more harm to the white tail herd and leave a bunch of homes cold and hungry.
My point is "You never Know" So I just mind my own and make sure I do right by my morals. -Duncan
Since he doesn't have permission to be on the property where the deer rest I tell him that I don't the have the authority to grant him permission to remove the deer since the law requires he call the landowner.
I offer to call the landowner, inform the landowner that the hunter doesn't have ANY private permit in his possession, and that by law he should just in case he's not aware of the law. I would advise the landowner to have the hunter go to his house, show him the permit to be on his neighbors property to hunt, and then he can remove the deer from his property. Once that is done, I would offer to help him gut and drag the deer out for him. If he's a nice guy, I may even buy him lunch to celebrate. I would do this to PROTECT my landowner and show him that I'm also there to watch over his property.
If this guy is NOT legal I would be concerned for my safety. He's obviously on private land without permission shooting deer. I would be concerned walking in the woods in the dark with this guy walking around, because if he breaks one law, he'll break another, like shooting at shadows in the dark.
What's so damn hard about following the law??? I've done it for 46 years and taken several deer. Why do you have to cheat or condone cheating. It sounds like I'm in the minority and that's very disappointing.
I agree, but you asked what we would do, not what things were right or wrong with the situation, but nontheless, a good point to make!
I went out yesterday for a couple of hours and ran into a young man at local restaurant for breakfast. He said he was hunting an area I'm familar with and I asked him if many guys had asked for permits to hunt the area? He said "You don't need a permit after Dec 5th"
I told him that wasn't correct and he begin to read the reg on his phone, and said "Crap, I've been up there without a permit for muzzleloader all week"
I didn't turn him in. I told him the right thing to do and he immediately left the diner and headed to the vendor for a permit. Ignorance is no excuse in the eyes of the law, but this was a case where the reg was confusing to him, and he wanted to do the right, and he did.
I mention this only because to me there's a difference between knowinly breaking laws and doing it in error, especially a young man (just 23) who just took up hunting last year. Most of the posts around this topic have been about guys who either know someone who does it knowingly, or they do it themselves. I have no sympathy for people like that, sorry, just me.
I get a little tired of hearing "I was confused" or "I didn't know". Your friend got on his phone and discovered that you were right so it's obvious he knew where to look. It's our responsibility as hunters to "know before we go".
I agree, it's our responsibility to know the law, that's why I said ignorance is no excuse. This was just some kid I ran into at the local restaurant, and he had saved the page from the regs to his phone because he wasn't sure how to read them, he should have called the DEEP to make things clear.
In the end he did the right thing. I guess I get more upset with the guys that know the regs and decide to ignore them, they're just criminals in my mind.
I call Bulshit on this one. If he's really a humanitarian he should buy those needy families meat. He's a game hog who gives meat away to justify his illegal actions. (And maybe to get rid of evidence). Guys like that are nothing but poachers. Telling me he shoots 20 deer in a state where he only gets a couple of tags, And sounding impressed, has me wondering about your ethics. "Proxy Hunting" is a nice euphemism for lowlife poacher.
I've met guys like that, they say they need the meatt to justify poaching, yet they shoot old bucks and bulls. Just pathetic. I'm with BBB, I'd be the first guy to call the authorities on that guy.
What the hell happened to knowing right from wrong?
my BIGGEST fear with all of the guys that justify breaking the laws or acting unethical is simple - If they break one law, they'll break another. I don't want to be anywhere near these guys in the woods, because who knows what they'll shoot at and when. One of my biggest reasons for staying away from gun hunting is these kinds of slobs! At least with a bow and arrow the lethal range is much shorter.
As far as breaking one law so you'll break another. How many time dose one try and beat a yellow light while driving. everyone dose it, the law is if the light is yellow and you can safely stop your suppose to stop. how many people roll thru stop signs? or answer their cell while driving? Because these people are breaking one law we should all be afraid they will also rob a bank or mug me while walking down the street. After all they have no respect for the law since they stepped on the gas when the light turned yellow when the law clearly says stop at yellow lights.
"Let he who is with out sin cast the first stone." -Duncan
Your example is absurd, and frankly embarrassing.
If a guy robs you at gun point and gives the money to the poor, is that ok because you'd have paid taxes anyway and the government would have given the money to the needy anyway?
I suggest you look in your heart and think about what you said. Defending poachers and criminals hardly seems to be in keeping with good Sportsmanship principals. I'm very happy to say that in all my years, I've run into very few people like your friend and even fewer apologists for people like that.
here's what's wrong with it,...it's against the law!! End of story, no debates, it's against the law.
I'll cast the first stone when it comes to hunting legally. I have NEVER broken any hunting regulation in 46 years of hunting, and I never will. When I agreed to help you with hunting, what was the first thing I said? I go by the book. I don't hunt after sunset. I don't trespass. I don't take unethical shots. I said to you, if you can't agree with this then I'm not your guy.
Condoning a criminal's actions is the same as committing the crime yourself. The criminal justifies his actions and so do you. I've hunted by myself for most of my 46 years because other "friends" that came hunting with me wanted to justify illegal actions, and I refused.
2 incidence are still clear in my mind. My friend and I were leaving the Colebrook River Lake damn and just before old RT 8 there was a huge buck bedded down not more than 30 yards from the road in a no hunting zone. I stopped the truck to look at him and my buddy immediately says "Shoot him Bob, you're a better shot than me." I said no way, it's a no hunting zone and as we got back in the truck a cop in an unmarked car pulled up from Rt 8 and said he thought for sure we were going to try to shoot the buck.
Another time we were walking out of the Wangum Lake area on private land that we permission to cross and a doe was standing 10 ft from the dirt road. Again, same buddy says, shoot him. I stopped hunting with him right after the 2nd instance.
So I paid for my license and my tags, and both times I mentioned above no would get hurt and the deer would be eaten. No harm, a victimless crime as others have called them. But for me there's one big problem. I would have to look in the mirror and admit that both times I wasn't a hunter. I was poacher who just wanted to KILL a deer at any cost. There's no challenge to killing, it's easy sometimes. Doing the right thing is hard, but I feel good when I get a buck like I got this year, done the right way. Was it worth waiting 16 years, without a doubt.
Hard to imagine BBB isn't cringing every time you add a post to this thread.
How about this, tell your buddy to use some of his considerable wealth to hunt in other states, where he can kill more deer. Then he can 1) be legal 2) continue to provide meat to the needy 3) keep pounding his chest so you both can be impressed.
He's had run ins with the wardens already huh? Do you think that surprises us?
Dr Deer did what he did legally and in an area that needed deer reduction. To equate what your friend does to Dr Deer's hunts is again telling us more about you and your make up.
You really should quit while you're behind.
Instead a complete stranger stepped up and volunteered his time, and his spots because of his goodness, and his desire for you to learn things the right way.
Do I have to point out which person is worth looking up to, and which one is a low life poacher?
Choose wisely those you put on a pedestal.
I've never taken a buck in the five years I've been hunting, and if a buck were to present itself before first legal light, as badly as I want that buck, I will not shoot him before legal light, regardless of the circumstances. We are entrusted with a great responsibility and our image is already tarnished because of stereotypes more than anything else, so we have to conduct ourselves in such a fashion as to show we have respect for the animals we harvest, the environment and the laws set forth regulating hunting, whether we agree with them or not. By me not deciding to illegally take a deer, even though no one else is around, it comes down to two things, as BBB stated, "you have to look yourself in the mirror" and for me, I wanna feel good about the man looking back at me. Secondly, when you do certain things right, especially harvesting a magnificent buck legally, that's the feeling of pride and accomplishment I want to feel.
By no means am I morally superior, I've made my share of mistakes and I will continue to, that's all a part of being human and living life. But when it comes to hunting, I will always do my best to do the right thing, because more than "me" is at stake, I represent thousands of unseen individuals just like me and I want to leave a good impression on those who think differently about hunters, so that when they encounter another hunter, they'll know we're just normal men and women enjoying a passion.
As for your swipe at Dr. Deer, I don't know the man personally, but based on what I've read on this thread from him, he's a damn good humble man who offers excellent advice and I've never seen him speak ill of anyone on this thread.
Nothing personal Duncan, but as hunters, we all have a responsibility to do the right thing, because true character is revealed when you can do the right thing when no one is watching.
"one person kills 20+ deer he is a hero, while my made up Proxy hunter kills 20+ deer he is a poacher."
This has been typed numerous times: -One guy did it legally and one guy broke the law- Do you not see the difference?
Mr Smith Steals a million dollars and Mr Jones earns a million dollars. They both have a million dollars. Do you see them as moral equivalents?
But I will say that if anybody kills 20+ deer a year I find it disgusting but if no laws a broken there is really nothing you can do. The guy in your made up story was violating every law in the books. Even if you kill 2 deer like that, that makes it worst than killing 20+.
Mr. Smith is a bigger asshole now. I bet Mr jones wants to move out of CT too.
Back a few posts.
Having a bow is not Per Se evidence of hunting. Having a knocked arrow is. Big difference. If having a bow is Per Se evidence, none of us could ever hike out of the woods past legal shooting time.
I can take my bow cross public land that is closed to hunting to access land that is open to hunt or I have permission to hunt.
It seems more and more that consistencies between what is legal and what is moral/ethical are accidental rather than by design.
we agree on another point. A few years back I asked the DEEP if I could carry my bow on the blue trail to access a land locked section of state land. They had to get 2 people on the phone and at first they said no. I then posed the same question to them that you stated. If my bow is not "loaded" and I'm merely transporting it on a public right of way, just like a road, then it can't be considered hunting because I'm no more in pursuit of game as I would be in my car.
They reconsidered and agreed!! They recommended I call the game warden in the area to alert him to my plans, which I did, and I never had a problem. They did admit that if I did it in another area without contacting the resident warden, and I was charged, it would need to be resolved in court because the statutes don't clearly spell it out.
So when we going to deer camp?
Not true, it could have harmed a law-abiding and ethical hunter by taking that resouce away that otherwise would have been available to him...maybe this guy needed deer for his family as well...hypothetically of course.
For example only, so take no offense BBB...Say BBB was illegally proxy hunting for you this year and he shoots his big buck, one that I was after all season. Didn't he just take this resource from me by his illegal action.
come on admit it, you're starting to like me a little bit, right?
Just of it, I'm going to let all of the doe and small bucks walk to you during the hunt, who else would do that for you??
I walked away and muttered to myself, that will really help when you have a chest full of bird shot.
and that will be the same guy that takes a shot at another hunter who kinda, sorta, if you squint your eyes real hard, looks like a deer, kinda sorta.
You can find more information about Proxy Fishing or Proxy Hunting. We encourage you to contact your local Fish and Game office for the proxy hunting or fishing authorization form and current restrictions to proxy hunting or fishing.
It is LEGAL!, my made up friend would be just fine -Duncan
Tell your "made up" friend good luck...LOL
One thing, killing lots of deer has given me lots of experience. Equipment, techniques, tracking, observing. I will probably write a book eventually. Being on a TV show was something I did to support a man who is like a brother to me. Mike and I were basically raised together. I don't regret that move, although I wish I had some, or any control of the shows content. Looking back, I am positive about it. Does it make me a target to some? Sure, but I am not easily offended. I like lot's of posters here, they don't have to agree with me. Some of the feuds are entertaining, but I don't partake. Life has plenty of drama, so I don't need to look for it here.
I do appreciate when someone has my back. Thanks.
seriously...he takes a lot of deer...but I can attest that he works hard at it, over the years has put in countless time, and helped many many people out (homeless, landowners, and hunters alike).
he gets a thumbs up in my book.
I wouldn't call it immoral. It's not illegal either. So, if that floats your boat by all means. You have every right to do so. I Just wouldn't do it.
I hope you are (and I have no inclination to believe you're not) using the resources wisely. If doubt anybody can eat that much deer so i hope you are donating it.
One thing that upsets me is that if you are shooting 20 deer a year, you have 40 deer knee bones going to the garbage and you have not saved ONE for me.
Save me the ones from elk next year.
They only have them in the hind legs.
where do you go elk hunting? I'm planning another trip to New Mexico in 2016 (my wife and I are going to Italy in 2015 to celebrate 40 years of marriage, so next year is out).
I been told that the San Francisco River Outfitters are one of the best. They hunt Gila and sections in Arizona as well. The only problem with NM is the lottery, so I was even considering doing an over the counter hunt is Colorado. A couple of guys on that forum gave me some tips on where go.
Not sure how long you've been elk hunting, but my first encounter a couple of years ago was with a 380 bull that came in screaming, snot dripping from his nose, stinking to high heaven, his eyes bugging out of his head, and talk about exciting!! Man oh Man it was crazy fun. I NEED to get one, just NEED to.
BTW - yeah I missed at 33 yards. The arrow flew dead on his shoulder but went an inch over his back. I'm convinced I placed my pin on his main beam, not the heart/lungs. First time in years that I was so excited over an animal that I blew my pre-shot routine. Pick a spot, pick a spot.
I went with James Provencio the first time I hunted elk,...small world. I was a bit disappointed because he didn't tell me that I'd be hunting with his brother Jerome, not him. We hunted Cibola, unit 13.
There was a pro hunter for Sitka in the camp next to ours, his name is Kiviok Hight from Colorado, he was the one that told Jerome where the elk were coming from and going to, that's when I got off a shot the next morning. I did everything right except aiming at the main beam.
Jerome did things like, walk away from a bull that was answering our calls?? One evening we had a bull with cows coming off the hill and their direction of travel was taking them off to our right, but Jerome wanted to stay put, even after I said we should move. Then I could hear the bull raking the trees and Jerome asked when it was all over, why didn't you walk in on him when he was raking? They hardly ever notice you then. I said, why didn't you tell me that before, not after??
I wasn't real happy with Jerome, so I'm looking for another outfitter. No way I can hunt elk by myself.
The very first time Jerome was calling and having a bull answer, the bull came into the open at 75 yds and was walking towards us, when it stopped, looked right in the direction of Jerome (he was off to my right a bit) and then ran off. I was stone still, so I knew it wasn't me. Jerome admitted he moved and the elk saw him. It was a smallish bull, so I wasn't too disappointed. My distance limit on elk is 65 yards. I practiced at Bristol F&G all summer at that distance I was hitting the kill zone 8 out of 10 times, but 75 was not a distance I would shoot!
They are fun!
They only have them in the hind knee so, no. Just 40 of the ones I collect.
