Recurves: Draw Weight?
Pennsylvania
So I've found a few recurves and am thinking about buying one. It will be my first. Obviously it will be a long road until I'm able to ethically aim it at a critter but that is my goal.
I shoot my compound at 73 lbs. In my mind I think I should be starting with a 50 lb. bow. I imagine I'll keep it and get plenty of use out of it hunting deer. The thing is there's a chance I may want to take it to Alaska next fall for moose and I don't feel like that's enough energy to kill a moose quickly. I have to wonder if 60 is ideal for a big animal like that. Am I really in the market for 2 different bows??? What about a 55 pounder?
My draw length is 28"
A lot to think about. No better group to come to for some advice on trad gear than you guys though.
Mule, it is January, and a good time to pick up a bow in the 45 to 55# class. Any book you will read about getting good with trad gear will recommend starting light to develope good form and follow thru.
On poundage for really big game, I know quite a few guys who kill elk consistently with bows in the 55# weight class. As with elk, moose hunting can be a very up close and personal hunt. Shots can sometimes be at spitting distance. With a good COC broadhead and heavy arrow, I see no reason why you couldn't bury to the fletching at 60#
I shoot a 55# longbow with 640 grains of arrow and head. It will kill anything in north america with the right shot placement. Blows thru deer like butter.
I went from a 70 lb compound to a 53 lb longbow and that was pushing it at first. A bow around 45 lb would have been better to learn with... for me. Like Bowjo said, you have to develop your form, then get it ingrained, and if you struggle with the weight at all, it will be very difficult, if not impossible, to develop good form in any decent amount of time.
If you're a strong guy and you started now with a 45 lb bow, and it was comfortable for you to draw and hold, and practiced intellegently, there's no reason you shouldn't be able to handle a 55 lb bow by fall.
I'm no Olympian but I'm no 90 pound weakling either. My job is pretty physical. I carry thousands of pounds of materials a day and sling heavy nail guns around from dark to dark.
I don't want a stepping stone. I anticipated the answers I'm hearing. Hoping you'd weigh in Jeff. And I'm really glad to hear how much confidence you have in your 55 pounder Bill. I think I'll go to a shop and draw a few bows back. My hope is that I'll be comfortable starting with a 50 lb bow and keep it for a good while. But you definitely talked me out of the 55 or 60.
Thanks guys.
You will be amazed at how difficult it will be to pull a 50# bow until you develop good form. It takes a different set of muscles to draw a recurve and they need time to get it right. You may be able to horse it back but that won't do you any good long-term. You would be much better off getting a 40-45# bow cheap just to work on form with.
Anyone care to recommend a make and model of 45 pounder that's cheap to start with?
Martin Jaguar?
Any thoughts on getting a take down and then getting heavier limbs as I work my way up in weight?
Can I hunt deer with that 45 lb bow?
Craigslist is a good place to start. Martin and the older Damon Howatts are good bows for sure.
Buddy has a trad shop not but 10 miles from me with a ton of new and used bows, just say the word Joe..
I'll take you up on that for sure Roy! This week would be great.
My first recurve was 45#. Eventually I worked my way up to 65#. Not sure why, must have been an ego thing. Due to shoulder, neck, and elbow pain I am now back to shooting 45#. I'm shooting better than ever as a result.
Shoot the bow that is best suited for the game you wish to hunt, but keep a moderate weight bow for your general shooting. Your joints with thank you after a couple decades.
Good luck, and welcome to the other side!
Dave
I learned on a 60# red wing and it was ok but wore me out quick. It was still fun though. Start at 5 to 10 yards and remember form form form.
I would start out with 35lbs. Work on form, and release without injury. Also this bow should let you reach your maximum draw length with ease. Lots of guys start to heavy. Draw short, and never get the max out of their bows. My ego when I started caused me lots of problems.
Man I'm really glad I posted this thread. Lots of great perspectives. Flatlander the thought of drawing short is something I have thought about and definitely want to avoid. I should mention that I have shot recurves before so I'm not going into this completely blind. It's just been a long time.
I really like the whole idea of owning a super light bow that I can draw effortlessly. It just seems like a really productive way to warm up and to work on form and release. I own so much hunting crap that the idea of owning 2 or more recurves isn't a big deal. Not to mention my osage bamboo creations. I could have a "moose bow" that I only used when I had a chance. I could use it for elk too when the opportunity rolls around. I hunt them every year so it would be worth it to have a bow a bit heavier than what I really need for whitetails.
But since the majority of my deer hunting is in Pa it does seem counterproductive to use a moose bow for deer. Moose come to grunting sounds. Deer around here will be gone in a flash if they hear me grunting and farting to draw my bow back. haha
I looked at the Trout Outdoors website Roy. Closed today. But I'll be in touch and if you want you can join me over there. What days does Chris let you out of the kennel? ;-)
Thanks again guys. For the help and for a glimpse of.... the other side. :-)
Mule you couldn't ask for a nicer guy to get you started down the traditional road. RC won't steer you wrong, the old coot knows what he's doing! Well? I think he does anyway. LOL
The lighter weight bows are definitely the way to go just starting out. My 55# response was to you shooting a Moose. I feel it's more than capable of doing so. My draw length is 31" so the bows actually shooting around 60#.
A light bow can be used in most hunting situations in PA.
60# Bill? Your a brute!
Mule Power,
Have you given any thought to buying a take down recurve, and getting a couple of different sets of limbs for it.
I know a lot of guys don't like the looks or the feel of a take down, but if you're looking for some versatility and a range of draw weights while maintaining the feel of one bow, you might want to give a take down a try.
Dave... absolutely!!!! I'm pretty sure that's the route I am going to take for the lighter ones. I don't need to get anything expensive either. I was looking at Martin Jaguars and Sabers. $139 for the Jaguar and $209 for the Saber. $99 for different weight limbs. For $239 I could have the Jaguar in both 35 and 45 pound models. it will be great for practice and to try my luck at rabbits when running my beagles. I love that idea!
When the day comes that I think I want a heavier bow I could buy the 50 or 55 lb limbs or just leave that bow alone and buy a nicer one that isn't a takedown.
I see the shop Roy mentioned carries Martin bows so I'm going to call them tomorrow and see what they have to say. If they can match that price I'll be on my way there. I'm obsessed with this new bow right now. It's that time of year. Can't wait to get back to RCs and finish a bow over there that's half built too.
Yep, 60# Chuck. The arrow is normally 6" in the ground after the pass thru. I'm over bowed for whitetail a little. It really smacks um!!!
Heck Bushy, you could use mechanicals with that kind of poundage:)
Mechanicals are for "Sissy Pants Archers" LOL
Ace Standards or Magnus Snuffers for this archer!
Joe, the Martin Jaguar is junk.....trust me on that. Starting out with a #50 bow is a bad idea. You'll learn incorrect form quickly and those habits are difficult to break. Every certified recurve archery instructor in this country that I can think of would likely recommend 30-35# to break in on. My recommendation for a bow would be an ILF take down. Your limb choices are endless this way. As your form progresses then heavier limbs can be added later. In so far as hunting weight goes, well, my friend Tucker Grose kills giant bull moose with his 45# recurves and only draws 27", like me. My personal bows are hovering right around 45# also and my arrows blow through deer like they are made of paper.
Love the Magnus Buzzcuts. But I think I'm going to try their new cut on contact head when it comes out. I think it's called the Black Hornet. Looks really nice.
Just got a message from an eBay seller. $239 for a 35lb Martin Jaguar takedown and a set of 45 lb limbs and free shipping. But nothing beats working with a local shop so hopefully Roy's friend will match that.
For that price I figured it was a toy. I'll take your word on that Roger... you know... since you know Roy and all. I'll have a look at that ILF. But for this lightweight bow I don't want to spend much.
Any input on the Martin Saber takedown?
Man... a bazillion options with ILF. OK, I'll spend the money. Because all I need to make changes are new limbs. I should get plenty of use from a good riser. Can you start by recommending a riser? How about a riser length? I want a minimum 60 inch bow.
Edit: I am learning. Learning how little I know. haha Do the ILF limb lengths stay the same and therefore the length of riser determines the overall length of the bow?
I guess the next question is limbs?
Roger, really an ILF. Is that what your shooting?
Vintage, ILF, one piece bows, you name it Chuck and I've shot it. ;)
Joe, I'm at work, but when I get home tonight I'll post up some photos and other stuff that will make a lot of sense.
JOE
You buy an ILF and you will be banned from my bow shop for life.......................................
The Samick Sage recurve is a nice takedown at an economical price. My buddy has one and it shoots great. Spare limbs can be bought pretty cheaply as well.
Twig Archery in Ohio has great deals on them.
If my rack of custom bows would suddenly disappear the Sage is the bow I would buy.
Ooooh Roger. Sounds like you'll be standing in RCs garage with an apple on your head this winter for that post. What do you hunt with these days... after shooting them all?
Red.. Where is Twig? I was looking at Samick bows on the Lancaster site. Right now I'm like Grasshopper on Kung Fu. I realize bows are like shoes. Different strokes for different folks. I think a wise first move would be to be Roy's designated driver and head over to his buddy's shop and try a few on for size. See how they feel and weigh out my options.
Lots of people tell me to go to Trad Gang and I could also stop over to the Lesatherwall but in my opinion I have enough knowledge and experience right here. At least to get started.
I won't buy from TG. Archerytalk has a lot of trad stuff. In fact probably more Trad bows sold there now than anywhere else. . Ebay and Craigslist have some. Trout outdoors should have a good selection.
Joe, ILF stands for "International Limb Fit". All that it is, as the name implies, is a universal system for attaching limbs to a riser, which Earl Hoyt invented in 1983, btw. All it really means is that any company who makes an ILF limb will fit on any company's riser that is ILF compatible. The nice part of it is you don't get stuck with proprietary limbs that you may or may not like. I don't know what Roy's or Chuck's aversion to all of it is, but you can ask them. ;^) How 'bout some pics in my next post? :)
Here, this is what they're sissy-pantsing over. You can see the dovetailed fitting in the end of the riser and the male end on the limb. You just slide them together and small detent holds them in place to string the bow. The other advantage to ILF is that you can adjust the bow's tiller. Try that with a Black Widow or some other overpriced bolt down design and it would blow up.
Here's what it looks like assembled and strung. To the right of it is another ILF bow, and again, I can flip-flop limbs from one of those bows to the other.......and often do. It's like having four bows for the price of two.
Joe, for information on learning conventional archery I highly recommend the leatherwall. You'll see me, Jeff Durnell, Phil Magistro and George Stout over there talking archery every single day. If you want information about bow building then Tradgang is the ticket. However, if you start a thread over there about shooting barebows accurately then you may well get the thread pulled by management......They are total sissy-pants on that site and I'm not kidding. I know guys who got banned there because they talked about bow companies that don't happen to sponsor the site. And, I think you actually have to pay them a fee to look at the classifieds!!......again, not joking here. Archerytalk has a tradional forum which is a wealth of knowledge, but they are more geared toward target archery like IBO 3D's and such.
Joe come on down to RC's I have some bows I can lend you range from 45# to 55# shot them and see what poundage you like ! just let me know when !
Yup Joe, ya all can buy wheel kits for them ilf-ers too.
Roger, Thanks for explaining what ILF means, I had no idea and Joe beat me to the punch asking about it. The other question I have is what is string walking, saw it on the leatherwall and have no idea what it is. Can someone please explain, sorry to hi-jack the thread for a few minutes.
I'm calling Uncle Phil right now....
http://www.stickbow.com/FEATURES/SHOOTING/walking/index.CFM
LOL you are always causing trouble, telling on me!
Harv, no problem, bud'. String walking is an aiming technique where you use the tip of the arrow as your sight. You 'walk' your fingers down the string a certain predetermined distance called a "crawl". You'll have a different crawl for all the various yardages to the target. That way no matter what distance your shooting, the tip of the arrow is always on the target. Having said that, I don't use it. The nose is too big and the string stings it on every shot. My aiming technique is called "gapping".
And don't worry about hijacking, I know Joe(Mule Power) and he's every bit as off topic as even me and 'Ol RC......You should see when the 3 of us get to drankin'. :)
Ok, never tried that. I would imagine you would have to shoot 3 fingers under? How does the arrow nock- NOT come off the string? I have a buddy who gap shoots, I seem to think that I'm instinctive as much as that can be.... I know I don't look at the arrow and only pick a spot/hair. And as far as "drankin" I'm almost at a year alcohol free! I had 6 rods and 12 screws put in the old back and figured I'd pause until I was off the meds, but ended up just not having another... lost 55 lbs also. Now I can climb hills like I did when I was 30..... can't wait till next year, going to visit some hunting spots I haven't been too in years. Even planning on taking my Dream Catcher with me, Mule I originally started with a 55lb Mamba but ended up having to "lighten" up to my 45 lb Dream Catcher which back in the day I could hold my own with most anybody. If I can get back to that accuracy I will hunt with it again this year.
Mule
Be carefull getting too involved with aiming methods right now, you have lots of time for that later. That kind of stuff will mess with your head. Trust me.
Start out establishing repeatable form and just looking at the spot you want to hit (probably a couple thousand shots). You can then experiment with various methods for aiming. Some are better suited for target, some for hunting. Only after you have a foundation will you know what works best for you.
Personally, I look at what I want to hit and nothing else. It's been working well for me for a long time. It's all fun regardless how you aim.
I think Twig Archery is in Conesville????? They have a website.
Ilf limbs, gapping, walking the string. What's going on with these guys Roy? Aiming? What the heck is that?
Mule, you need to go purely on instinct! You ever throw a football?
...and I almost forgot. Split finger as well!
Yes, by all means shoot instinctively. Anybody know anyone that can repeatedly hit a 3" target at 25 yards with a football?......I don't. :) Oh, and Howard Hill was once quoted as saying that he knew lots of instinctive shooters, but never knew a good one. :) And, we need to tell all those native Americans they were doing it wrong shooting 3 under. :)
A 3" target with an arrow is very obtainable at 25 yards. I normally practice at about 20 yards, shoot at ping pong balls.
Yes, it is "obtainable", Bill, can you do it with consistency? If so, you'd be among the elite archers of the day shooting instinctively. I never tell guys how they should shoot to become consistently accurate. Having said that, every top IBO 3D pro that I can think of shoots 3 under.......and they will all tell you why. Tough to put a ping-pong ball behind a deer's shoulder before killing it, and probably just as tough for 98% of archery hunters to consistently see an individual hair on a deer's chest to give an aiming reference. I always just thought the point of launching an arrow was to hit the intended target, but I might be wrong about that. ;^)
It won't help, Jeff, that's part of my point. Then again, I wasn't the one who told anyone how they should shoot and shouldn't have to defend my preferences either.......but I will.
Mule, back to the question, everyone here pretty much gave the same advice as a starting point, to develop good form, start light. And, like golf, rather than pick up a club and just start swinging, it's best to get some one on one instructions so you can skip that step of having to break bad habits. But where you end up will be up to you. If you can handle the extra horsepower, why not? Just never at the cost of compromised form. Your joints will talk to you. LISTEN :)
If anyone misread my post go back and read it again.
Starting with simple look and shoot is a solid beginners foundation builder. Only when repeatable form is established should one experiment with alternative aiming methods. How else would one know or understand the difference?
No one here is claiming one method is superior over another. Personal preferences have been mentioned, nothing more.
"Ok, never tried that. I would imagine you would have to shoot 3 fingers under? How does the arrow nock- NOT come off the string?"
Harv, you need a nock point above and below the arrow nock, that way there is no way for the arrow to move down the string. Whether or not I was shooting split or three under, I always tied in a nock set below and right up against the bottom of the arrow nock......It works like a charm. Only using a nocking point above and not one below, does allow the arrow to move down the string on the shot using either method of hooking the string's serving. You could mitigate that issue to some degree by using thicker serving material, but eventually it wears over time and becomes loose,......or looser.
Here's what that looks like on the string's serving, Harv.
Gotcha, I didn't think of that. Thanks
Yepper.....You can do the same thing using two brass crimp-on nocks; then when it's all tuned, mark the 2 locations, remove the brass and tie on using nylon serving or even string material. After that's accomplished, I place a half drop of Super Glue on each to make it all permanent. Rock solid it is.
I shoot instinctively. I know I'm not as accurate as a gap shooter or string walker at over 20 yards. In my 40 plus years of hunting with a bow, probably 90% of the deer I've taken were at 15yds or less. If the shot feels like I can make it, I take it. That's the beauty of the stick bow.
If I have to know my yardage to make the shot, I would simply mount a sight on my bow and be done with it.
Haha. You guys. I feel like I threw a live salmon in the brown bear pit at the Pittsburgh zoo. It's all good. I learn from all of it. Roger is a good dude and has taught me a lot. Bill too and he has always offered to help including turn me on to his hunting spots. RC taught me how to poke a hole in the bottom of a beer can to be able to down it in 3 seconds. Oh, and tons about building and shooting trad bows too. My kind of guy. I enjoy the ball busting. Regardless of how Roger and Roy shoot they both do pretty darn good in my opinion and I'll be pretty happy when I get to their level.
My plan is to shoot instinctive. Keeping it simple. Otherwise I'd just keep shooting the compound. Once I am consistent with that I may look at other techniques.
Roger... did a Native American Indian tell you they ALL shoot 3 under or did you make that part up? Are you sure the didn't sit around and argue about string walking and gap shooting..... or Rage broadheads?
Jeff you are way too level headed for this crowd.
Mule, I've got a 45# longbow you can use if you like. It's the longbow I learned on, and I never shoot it anymore.
Your draw is pretty long Bushy... 45# at what draw length?
Joe, today's Born Again Trads(BATS) are actually direct descendants of the Apache, I'm told. Apparently, you are still "traditional" when sitting 17' up in a sissy-pants treestand while wearing a cute matching camo outfit, just as long as your shooting split finger/"instinctive", then it's ok and your "one of them". :)
@28" Mule. If you pull past that you gain #'s.
Roger, Can I shoot a ping pong ball of your head please? :)
Yes Bill, but you'll need to buy me a few beers first......chased by a shot of Knob Creek Bourbon, of course. ;)
Hey Joe, was thinking here, if we can hook up at the old man's place soon enough, I'll bring a few recurves down for ya' to try. I buy and sell a fair amount of them and who knows, you might like one enough to hang on to it, or at least give you more ideas.
Work is slow now Geronimo. Any day but Saturdays... I hunt then whether it's deer or running the beagles for rabbits. Talk to Roy and give me the word and I'll be there.
Then it is settled, Kimosabe. We shall gather at He Who Dances With Coors Light, under the next full moon, and hopefully celebrate in union with The Split Fingered Warriors.......my brother.
I would post, but Phil would delete it anyway.. Geeze......... Must be on his 28 day cycle again...
What a bunch of degenerates. I agree with Red! A good foundation! Point and shoot! ETC!
Ya otta ask the ole man if it's ok to come over:)
Roger, I'll actually try and hit the ping pong ball, I promise! I might want to join you guys at this get together. I'll come down and school you on the fine art of shooting. :)
Why Roy? Just leave the door open and stock the cooler. Tell Chris she is always welcome to come out and hang out with us while you're making chili. You taught us everything you know so we don't need you anymore. Unless you've been with holding information.
I just wanted to see his new puppy, anyway. :)
I want a crack at the ping pong ball on Rogers head. I'll use blunts:)
trying to remember which club has the ping pong balls that hovered over air tubes?? Maybe I drank to much that day? Anyway that was the first time I hit a ping pong ball. Only took me several tries, you should be alright Roger????
:) Caint find the goat head....
Dale Hajas, that has to be the funniest pic I ever saw posted here on the PA forum.
I'm glad I got to see it before ol' you-know-who. :^)
Now I gotta go stand in front of the hand dryer in the restroom. :^(
You did notice Bushy sleeping in the background?:)
Chuck, I got a hard head......let 'em rip! :)
Bushy, curiously, who is your bed buddy in that photo? ;^)
Now that is funny! Dale you managed to dig up every horrible pic from the old days and make a, well I don't know how to describe it. Anyway that is freakin funny. My son just asked my why I was crying:)
PS. just wish you could have included the clock. Old bushy aint no early riser:)
Who's the prima donna flexing?
Hmmmmm.....This looks to be the poor man's version of a scene from Brokeback Mountain. Remind me never to get drunk with you guys. :)
pssssst....I always said Roy was a voyeur. :)
Don't worry Roger if you get drunk with me and Bushy we will take good care of you:)
You know boys... I spend a lot of time on the big game forums. Have friends from Alaska to Africa. But this Pa forum is hands down the best. Must be something in the water around here. That or the hops and barley yinz put in it.
My learning curve just flatlined! Freakin hilarious.
Damn Dale? Really a bigfoot? Then ya got me eating varmint. No wonder I avoid yinz:)
Varmint? ROFLMAO! I think the "varmint" actually posted that 1st many moons ago
ROFLMFAO
Those bring back memories.
I don't care what ya think! Dem dare pics are the funniest I've ever seen! Roy you've been out done!
In my defense, Roy and Chuck Rouffied me! Took me damn near a weak to walk straight again!
They where scared I'd shoot all the bears! LOL
...and by the way, I won the Pumpkin shoot the next day! :)
LOL Bushy, they are my old pictures:)
Oh my, not the pumpkin shoot:) forgot about that. I thought Roy won. He always was the best shooter in the group:) rouffied? Is that slang for drinking yourself into a stupor?
Dang I wish my old computer didn't crash. Lost some great pics.
I have videos of Chuck shooting, but I'll be good here:)
I never called Chuck fatlander lol but that pic was passed around 3 or 4 times. I put chucks head on Sasquatch. Roy put me and my Oscar Meyer weiner tools on next so I pt Roy's head on spit lol. I'm still lmao
I was drunk Chuck, maybe he did win! LOL
Member dem turkeys we set up on to close?
Way to close:) where was Roy that day?
I was throwing out corn trying to lure them away from you two's trusty arrows:)
Poor Joe all he wanted was some info and we dug up 10 years of dirt. I hope the guy never picks up a stick, he will be better off:)
We could pitch in money and buy him a crossgun..
Wise guy! If I wanted a cross gun I'd come over to your place and build one. They are trad gear RC. The Mongolians used them centuries ago.
Now Roger the historian is going to tell me they shot them 3 under.
Roy makes some of the finest bamboo backed crossguns I've ever seen.
He made them for the Mongols 1000 years ago.
Mule Power,
The Mongol warriors used a short, recurve style bow that they could shoot from virtually any position on their horse.
The Mongols didn't start using the crossbow until they began invading China, and then the crossbow they used wasn't a hand-held bow, but a siege weapon. The "Mongol Triple Crossbow" was actually stolen from the Chinese and the Mongols began using it when they started to run into the fortified castles that the Chinese had.
The Mongols modified their type of warfare which was typically hit-and-run attacks on unprotected villages or settlements to include siege warfare where they would set up camp outside a fortified castle and essentially starve the inhabitants into surrendering or burn them out be lobbing flaming arrows from the triple crossbow into the enclosures - similar to a modern day mortar attack. They also used a small trebuchet for this purpose.
Sorry for the long-winded bit of history.
There's a series of 5 novels by Conn Iggulden call the Conqueror series that depicts the span of Mongul rule.
Granted, it's fictional, but Iggulden did a tremendous amount of research in this subject and his stories are strongly archery related.
Good winter-time reading, if you're into that sort of stuff.
Here's what a Mongol' crossbow build looks like.....
......note the traditional tools pictured.
Carrying on the tradition is hard work.
You guys better not mess with me or I'll bring this fella....he'll whoop yunz all.
