Mentored Youth Changes, Your Opinions?
Pennsylvania
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PAGE #33 from agenda
PROPOSED RULE MAKING G. Amend 58 Pa. Code § 147.804. Commentary: The Commission has received extensive public comment regarding concern over the appropriateness of young children’s abilities to utilize high-powered firearms to harvest big game, as well as allegations of adults utilizing the harvest tags of mentored youth unlawfully. Wildlife Conservation Officers have encountered evidence of the allegations in several enforcement operations this past hunting season. The removal of eligibility for mentored youth under the age of 9 to harvest big game is intended to minimize both concerns expressed in public comment. The Commission is proposing to amend § 147.804 by removing deer and turkey from the list of species mentored youth under the age of 9 are eligible to harvest.
CHAPTER 147. SPECIAL PERMITS Subchapter X. MENTORED HUNTING PROGRAM PERMIT § 147.804. General. * * * * * 1) The hunting eligibility of a mentored youth un(c) Species limitation. (der the age of 9 is restricted to the following species: squirrel, woodchuck and coyote. (2) The hunting eligibility of a mentored youth 9 years of age or older is restricted to the following species: squirrel, woodchuck, coyote, deer and wild turkey. (3) A mentored adult’s hunting eligibility is restricted to the following species: squirrel, ruffed grouse, rabbit, pheasant, bobwhite quail, hares, porcupine, woodchuck, crow, coyote, antlerless deer and wild turkey.
I myself don't have a problem with these changes, but I don't have a child to mentor. I will not lobby either way on this one.
Opinions?
Bill,
Like you, I don't have a child to mentor, but if I did, I'd also have no problem with these changes.
Much of the way I feel about this issue stems from my youth and how I felt about hunting.
As a 12-14 year old, I remember loathing deer season. I felt it was the most boring time I ever spent in the woods. And those feelings were despite the fact that I shot a deer each of those 3 seasons. Granted, I was really excited to kill those deer (one was with a bow) but all were does, and I spent all of buck season sitting on my butt and only seeing an occasional deer.
But I absolutely loved hunting small game. I learned more about woodsmanship, hunting, and firearms safety while hunting small game than I did hunting deer.
A lot of it had to do with the fact that the weather was generally nicer, but a lot had to do with the fact that it was a more "active" way of hunting. Listening to the beagles chasing a bunny, sneaking through an oak flat trying to ambush a squirrel, or nearly crapping my pants every time a grouse came roaring out of the same grapevine pile I was in was nothing but pure pleasure - and still is.
I don't think the PGC nor adult hunters do enough to emphasize small game hunting with new hunters. I may be wrong (and probably am) but to me it seems everything is all about deer, and IMO, that's not the way to get a kid reved up about hunting.
I have a ten yr old. I have not yet introduced to a high power rifle yet. When the mentored youth program was introduced I believed it would be a catalyst for the outlaw. Guess the PGA now feels the same way. I could care less if they $@#& can the whole program. I would also like to see them add the antler restrictions into the program. Teach kids at a young age to be selective. Raise hunters not shooters! Again I don't Identify with most of you.
Think the proposed changes are IDIOTIC and the PGC will be idiots to back-track on this one.
Being a father of a 6 and 8 year old, I held off until they expressed an interest and just in the past year, they have. Both got lil sioux recurves for christmas and both want to go hunting. If they change this now, my 8 yr old will be ok because she'll be 9 this year but my 6, soon to be 7 year old son will be SOL.
Well Chuck, we're gonna have to agree to disagree on this one too! This is one of the best programs ever started by the PGC! So I don't ever "wanna see it $@#& canned! :(
I think they should keep it the way it started. Let the parent decide. Will there be abuses? I'm sure there will. But why should all the law abiding hunters be penalized for a few bad apples.
But I tend to be on the LESS REGULATIONS/SMALLER GOVERNMENT side of the argument. Seems the more regulations you put on things(to some extent), the more chances you have of screwing it up!
So I say continue to let the parent decide when the child is ready.
Perry this really has little to do with kids. This program is widely abused. We all know that! What it breeds is what concerns me. Do you have a child under the age of 10. If so have you met the parents of the children you kids go to school with? Somewhere something has been lost since I was kid. Also you brought your political view points into our conversation. I agree with u on less government. That is why this should have never been introduced. More to govern iMo
"This program is widely abused. We all know that!"
Evidence, please.??????
If anything, I think the MY program is underutilized. I have yet to see an adult with a MY hunter in the last several seasons. Granted, most of my time in the woods is on private land and during archery but, I have not seen ONE adult with a MY hunter driving by them, in the woods or anything else in the last several years in the spots I hunt in northern, southern or eastern 2B.
Schmucks are going to break the rules, no matter what the rules are. It is the PGC's job to catch the rule breakers and us hunters to report the rule breakers if we see them.
Punish the many for the misdeeds of the few. That is backwards thinking.
"Punish the many for the misdeeds of the few. That is backwards thinking."
Agree 100%! Don't care if it is largely abused, don't punish the kids and mentors that are doing things right.
If the MY program changes, my 6.5 year old will be disappointed. He's expressed interested in actually hunting next season and this will end that dream.
Typical govt' BS.
And so a criminal parent or mentor that is 'hunting' with the 9 year old, or older, child then won't poach a deer?......Huh?
Poachers were buying their wives licenses, who've NEVER hunted, and filled those for a "second buck tag" decades before the mentored youth program. Let's ban wives from buying hunting licenses, or at least not permit them to hunt unless they are, let's say, 36 yeas of age. Sound right?
Outlaws have been replacing so-called "lost hunting licenses" by buying replacements to kill a second buck for as long as I can remember. So, I guess if I lose my license next year then no replacement......that's only fair, correct?
You guys sound like the anti gun people wanting to take firearms away from legit, law abiding folks because a fraction of the people can't obey societies rules. By the way, *I AM* a parent and mentor to a hunting child, who had(and still does) the faculties to decide when mine was ready to hunt and did just that. I really don't need a bunch of pseudo psychologists to figure it all out for me.......thanks anyway.
No changes, NONE.
HSUS seeks to restrict hunting opportunity, out PGC Board of Commissioners should not do the same.
The abuses? What about the abuses of tag swapping from a junior hunter and adult when the adult shoots a spike or forky and tags it with the juniors tag? Are they proposing universal AR's for all to solve that problem?
No.
Proof??? The proof is in the proposals. CWO s are tired of dealing with derelict dads. If you want to call me a anti fine. Still think this program needs tweeked. You guys are quick to throw out that no program should ever be changed once introduced, but will fight to change the beat archery season.
Proof??? The proof is in the proposals. CWO s are tired of dealing with derelict dads. If you want to call me a anti fine. Still think this program needs tweeked. You guys are quick to throw out that no program should ever be changed once introduced, but will fight to change the beat archery season.
"I don't think the PGC nor adult hunters do enough to emphasize small game hunting with new hunters. I may be wrong (and probably am) but to me it seems everything is all about deer, and IMO, that's not the way to get a kid reved up about hunting."
This site is all about deer hunting and sitting in a boring treestand.
Last year, the PGC Commissioners voted down a September squirrel season, which would have given parents the time and daylight, to get kids out for squirrels. Surrounding states have early squirrel seasons. No problems.
When the PGC moved the pheasant season up a WEEK, bowhunters whined. When they wanted an early doe season for youth, bowhunters complained. When they had an early youth pheasant season, bowhunters complained.
Selfish.
Bowhunters???? Selfish???? Say it ain't so. :-)
From: roger ........ ....... Date: 13-Jan-15
And so a criminal parent or mentor that is 'hunting' with the 9 year old, or older, child then won't poach a deer?......Huh? Poachers were buying their wives licenses, who've NEVER hunted, and filled those for a "second buck tag" decades before the mentored youth program. Let's ban wives from buying hunting licenses, or at least not permit them to hunt unless they are, let's say, 36 yeas of age. Sound right?
Outlaws have been replacing so-called "lost hunting licenses" by buying replacements to kill a second buck for as long as I can remember. So, I guess if I lose my license next year then no replacement......that's only fair, correct?
You guys sound like the anti gun people wanting to take firearms away from legit, law abiding folks because a fraction of the people can't obey societies rules. By the way, *I AM* a parent and mentor to a hunting child, who had(and still does) the faculties to decide when mine was ready to hunt and did just that. I really don't need a bunch of pseudo psychologists to figure it all out for me.......thanks anyway.
I CAN'T BELIEVE I'M GONNA SAY THIS, BUT....................I AGREE 100% WITH YOU ROGER! ;-)
Rut, have you totally lost your mind?:)
I see photos of kids in PA with deer and turkeys at the ages of 7 and 8 and wonder how they could handle a larger caliber/gauge weapon. Maybe some can and maybe some parents help more than they claim. Like Flatlander, I have not introduced my son to a high power rifle (.243 cal) or larger gauge shotgun and he is 8 going on 9 this year. His uncle has a crossbow and he has shot that with very good accuracy. He is a mature kid for his age but just not ready right now and as a parent I recognize this. I offered him a try a time or two and he is having too much fun with the .22 right now.
I'm not for or against this regulation. He can and will come out any time with me on a hunt for deer or turkey and he would have just as much fun with taking in the sights and sounds and watching dear ol Dad shoot.
Brad, that's the best post I've ever read on this site, and unfortunately it's 100% accurate. Not only are we our own worst enemy, but everyone else's as well. There is nothing that will please archery hunters.
Roger I agree to point but it's not just bowhunters. It's hunters in general. Most want more days to hunt. Longer seasons, liberal bag limits, more weapons etc. isn't anyone satisfied? Let's look at what change has brought over the years, some good stuff, some very bad.
toby,my 7 year old killed two deer with a .243 when he was seven.I can't give you an exact weight but I think he was 55lbs at the time.I bought him a youth model 7 and had him shoot about 200 rounds of loaded down 70gr ballistic tips.Recoil wasn't an issue.He had to overcome the muzzleblast more than anything.When it came time to hunt,I loaded up a reduced load with 95 gr ballistic tips.This year at 9,he weighs 70lbs and wanted to use the Kimber Montanna in .308 that I bought for him the day after he was born.I was hesitant to let him try it so I loaded him a slightly reduced load with 125 gr accubonds.He shot close to 200 rounds of that this past year and had no issue with recoil.A total of five deer fell to that load this past year.One was a doe he shot at a lazered 207 yards.If you spend the appropriate amount of range time with kids,they're more than capable of getting it done and doing it safely.
How is increasing opportunity bad?I haven't seen any changes that has resulted in anything very bad.The quality of hunting and the opportunities we have today don't even compare with what we had in 1980 when I started hunting.When I was 12,I hunted turkeys and never saw one.I killed a spike buck and was done deer hunting for the year.I think I killed one rabbit and a few squirrels.This past year,my 9 year old killed two turkeys,including a gobbler bigger than anything I've ever killed.He killed at least 15 woodchucks,more squirrels than I can even think of and a buck and two doe.Things are so bad you can't even keep a kid interested.Let's stop adding opprtunities before we ruin hunting forever.
Remember that picture I posted of my buddy's daughter? She is 10, but smaller than a lot of 7 or 8 year olds. My daughter out-weighes her by probably 30 lbs and is half a head taller. She would be lucky to hit 60 lbs soaking wet! She has been shooting HER .243 for years and is probably a better shot than I am with a rifle. That's her pink/purple .243 in the pic.
For God's sake,let's keep the kids out of the woods and on the x-box's.They may just kill some adult's buck.
I will concede,if a kid can't handle a .243,they probably aren't ready to hunt but that should be up to the parent to decide.I bought my son a .243 for his 7th birthday much to my wife's dismay.Everytime he'd shoot it,she'd throw a fit,like I was abusing him or something.I had a deer target set up at 80 yards.One day after her rant,I had her go down and look at it.Every shot was clustered into the vitals.She never said a word after that.Kids are far more capable than people give them credit.
Great job with your son Doug!!
How is the mentored youth a catalyst for the out laws?It's the exact opposite since most of the tags are transferred from the mentor.I gladly transferred my doe tag,dmap tag and fall turkey tag to my son.A MY gets a buck tag and a spring gobbler tag.Since you can buy a second spring tag,I don't see how that increased the amount of turkey harvesting done by adults.So they have a buck tag.How many extra bucks does anyone really think were shot by outlaws using a MY tag?It would tough to explain what a guy would be doing with a sub legal buck if the kid wasn't present.How many poachers do you think successfully killed a buck while dragging a 5 year old out there?It's pure insanity to think it increased illegal activity.
The MY PROGRAM has changed my life,my son's life and I know a few of my buddy's who have hunted with us look at hunting differently now.My kid lives to be in the woods 12 months of the year.He plays football,baseball and wrestles and also run's in rodeo's.When he's not doing that,he's in the woods or doing something related to hunting.I'm not a very emotional guy but it chokes me up every time I look at him in the woods and see that determined look on his face.I know for a fact that there's nowhere else that kid wants to be at that moment.I can't believe there are actually adults that want to take that away.
I've had so many unforgettable memories in the past three years.One of my favorite people to hunt with is Mike Foust and we got to share one of the best hunts of all time on the first saturday of 2013.He sat with Jordan and I took a rifle with me to put a drive on through an area that was cut about 5 years earlier.I made a big circle to get the wind right.I was just getting ready to start driving when I heard a single shot,followed by two more pretty quick shots.I only put three rounds in his gun and gave them two more just in case.I started my push when a doe stood up from her bed.One shot ended that.I had just gotten done tagging the deer when two more shots rang out.Five shot's from an 8 year old kid didn't sound promising.Knowing they were out of ammo,I just headed their way.As I approached them,I started to make out their orange when I spotted a pretty good blood trail and a small barely legal buck laying there.Jordan approached,with a big smile,exclaiming that he had just killed a "huge' three point.I looked down and said it doesn't look like a 3 point to me.He said,No Mike killed that one,mine's over here.Mike had a big grin when we got over to the other buck.This was about the third time he'd hunted with us and I think the second time he was on hand when Jordan killed a deer.It was the first time he actually got to be the mentor when there was shooting.We had three deer down on one quick drive.We had a long drag out and we just took our time savoring the moment.I think all three of learned a lot that day and we talk about it all the time.It's good to have a friend willing to help and share in those memories.It just bugs me that there's hunters out there with no actual practical experience who want that to stop for no good reason.
This past year on the first saturday I woke up to rain pounding on my windows and siding.I didn't have a good feeling so I went down to feed the horses without waking my son.It was still dark so I took a ride up the road to a dmap area to see if anyone was dumb enouhg to be out.Not a soul was around so I figured I'd just go home and back to bed and see what the afternoon looked like.When I walked in the door,Jordan was already up,getting dressed.I tried discouraging him but he said he was going with or without me.I figured we'd give it a shot by still hunting some ravines,chokes with pine.We didn't see any deer til about 10:00am.We had two close calls,including one with a pretty nice buck that I could have shot but he was gone by the time I got the rifle to Jordan and got on it.Around 2:30,I decided to sneak along an old cut that was bordered by more pines.We had the wind when we got to the top and I told Jordan to just sit tight and scan every piece of cover.After about 5 minutes he whispered that he thiugh he just saw a deer move it's head.When I handed him the rifle,the buck stood up but stayed there long enough for Jordan to shoot,I never even saw the deer until he shot.It ended up being a half rack Y.It wasn't the biggest buck but it was a pretty satisfying day.I got done tagging and gutting him and when I went to put my coat back on it weighed about 60lbs.I was was happy and just started the long drag out around 3:00pm.Jordan asked me what I was doing.He said you didn't get one yet,lets stay out.I was more than content leaving but he still wanted to stay out in that crap.An hour later I killed a doe.It took us until well after dark to get those deer out.By the time we got them home,hung and skinned,we were beat.The next morning,I feel someone shaking me and I look up to see him dressed in camo with his face painted.He wanted to go hunting crows lol.I told him to put the crack pipe away and go back to bed.True story.
Awesome Doug and congrats to your son. Same to you Rut with your buddy's daughter. I agree with the memories as I have a few of them myself with my nephew and now my son. I'm glad to hear the younger ones out there getting it done. My son likes the .22 so much he shakes off anything else right now. I'm fine with that and it has giving me a new found respect for squirrel hunting now. He jumps at every opportunity to be out there in the woods with me so its a win all around. Keep up the great work.
Toby,kids just want to be included and you're right,they can have fun just observing.My son tagged along til he was seven and I think they need that.However,when the focus shifts to them being the hunter,everything changes and you'll know when they're ready.The first time they feel that adrenaline rush when they have a close call but fail to seal the deal,they're hooked.It's tough to explain without experiencing it.All of the sudden,your priorities changes as well.I'm not afraid to admit that I like shooting deer.Now that my son hunt's,I could care less.I get 10 times the rush watching him than I do when I'm the shooter.
Nothing wrong with hunting squirrels.We do it all the time and it's great practice and a pile of fun.
Hunting is dying a slow death and we need to recruit kids.I honesty thought my daughter would hunt but she never has.She was in the woods with me all the time when she was small but never showed an interest until last year.She fed of my son't enthusiasm and wanted to go.I didn't take her last year because she wasn't competent with a firearm.She shot quite a bit this past year so I took her to HTE and bought her a lisence and a doe tag.Something was always going on or the weather was crap so she never did make it out.I encouraged her but never pushed it.I think she'll make it out this coming year but she'll also be more prepared if she does.
My 7yr old son has taken two deer with two heart shots in the previous two seasons using a "high powered rifle"....not a prouder moment in my life...my son cried with excitement!! What the heck do I now tell him when he can't hunt next season? they changed the rules becuase they thought your were not ready to hunt.....BS. Proper supervision and instruction by responsible adults is all that is needed. I am sick and tired of always making new law and legistlation based on the 5% of the population/scumbags wrongdoing. Always end up penalizing the honest person!
My .02...PaLongshank
Longshank,my kid will be 10 next year so it won't impact me.I can tell you this though.I've never been an outlaw before but my kid would still be hunting.
Great pic palongshank!! Congrats to your son!
Great story's Doug! I hope to do the same with my little ones real soon.
My daughter is gonna be 7 this spring. I'm not sure yet if she will hunt or not. Some days she says she wants to hunt, other days she says she don't want to. She did tell me she wants me to get her a bow so she can shoot out in the yard with me. Guess I'll start there and see where it goes. Gonna try to get her out this spring for turkeys also and see how it go's.
Ben,my daughter never hunted but and I can't help but think if they had the MY back then,maybe she would have.By the time she turned 12,she was already distracted.Back then it was horses.Now it's boys.As long as you can instill a respect for hunting,you did ok.
Dougell SOUNDS like you utilize the mentored youth program the way it was intended to be used. However I still believe you to be the exception, not the standard. I don't care that the program is abused. Apparently the PGC is concerned. I agree with the proposals. I don't see where it degrades a parents ability to teach a child how to hunt, respect wildlife and be a good steward of the land. YOu don't need a weapon or hunting license to any of this! They are taking little away and concerned about what many hunters and CWO's are seeing in the field. I am concerned about young CHILDREN with high powered rifles and in their hands and a irresponsible adult beside them.
I have a hard time believing the program is being abused.Once again,get caught with a sub-legal buck or an extra one with a mentored tag,you have a lot of explaining to do without the kid present.I also have a hard time believing that anyone would drag a young kid out just to kill an illegal deer.If I wanted to be an outlaw,it would be much easier to just buy my wife a lisence.It would also be easier to get away with.Most of the deer my kid shoots will have my tag on it.Look at it this way,a doe or dmap tag has to be transferred.I get a pile of them every year and if I'm the one hunting,they all have a pretty good chance of getting filled.If I'm letting my kid be the trigger man,how many less will be killed?
I see more of a problem with an inexperienced 12 year old with an irresponsible adult.The 12 year old can carry the weapon.Ever go to a PGC range the day before deer season and see guys teaching their 12 year olds how to load and shoot?I have and it's scary.
To be honest,I don't know more than a handful of guys that really take advantage of the MY program.My kid doesn't have one friend in school that actually hunts,even though their fathers do.The handful that I do know,have the right intentions.I don't know how serious they all take it,but they aren't out to skirt any laws.I only personally know one guy who's really taken it serious.This guy wouldn't break a law under any circumstances and his kid,now 13 is an absolute predator.
They are taking something away.I take hunting pretty serious and I'm generally more than reasonably successful.The last three years my own kills have decreased but these have been by far the best three years of my life as far as hunting is concerned.It's hard to describe the bond I have with my son and the MY program has a lot to do with it.It's not about the kill or the success.It's about the year long mission and all the work that goes into it.When you work all year with a kid with the same goals and finally achieve what you set out to do,there's nothing in the world like that.I could set my kid in my field just about any evening and let him snipe a deer.That's not hunting to me and that accomplishes very little.When you go out with a plan and as a team,nothing compares to that feeling when it all comes together and the kid is tying his tag on a deer or turkey.I truly feel sorry for any father that never gets a chance to experience that.Sometimes when we're out there,I catch myself just staring at him.It's still hard for me grasp that a kid that age just gets it.I get all choked up just thinking about.Why anyone would want to deny any father and son that opportunity is beyond me.I couldn't imagine not having the memories we've shared over the past three seasons.
Chuck, he's not the exception to the rule, neither am I, neither are all the others here and other places who's kids have thrived under the Mentored Youth Program. We are the norm and that's all there is to it. Because you've heard some stories and other 3rd hand 'information' doesn't mean that a program has been widely abused. There is no evidence, whatsoever, to support your claims and if there is I want to know about it......show proof, not opinion.
You know everything I wrote in my post above is true about poachers. They buy licenses for spouses, recycle tags and buy bogus replacement licenses. Having said that, and in all fairness to law abiding adults and their children, how do you propose that the PGC remediate those issues? After all, you have no issues at all with limiting kids to fight poachers.
Lastly, can you offer any verified reports of young children involved with Mentored Youth Hunting that have injured themselves or anyone else with a firearm?
It would be far easier to recycle a tag than go through the hassle of using a mentored tag.
I agree Roger,the vast majority of guys taking their kids out,are doing so for the right reasons.It's a lot of work mentoring kids.Way too much work if doing it for the wrong reasons.
" Wildlife Conservation Officers have encountered evidence of the allegations in several enforcement operations this past hunting season" So the PGC and these Officers are lying????
No Chuck, they're not lying and I have great respect for the PGC. Ask them how many violators they've actually caught. Hell, even ask them how many credible allegations they've encountered with supportive evidence. Then compare those combined numbers to the number of mentored hunting pairs. If you do then you'll realize an incredibly staggering disparity between actual violators/poachers and hunters. This is no different an issue than the other means of poaching that I listed for you in my above posts. The difference is your totally willing to allow tens of thousands of law abiding children and parents to suffer for the sins of some fraction of a percentage of the hunting populace. Can you think of any other venue in life where this type of rationale would make sense?.......I certainly can't
If the pgc is complaining that there are to many issues with this program than they need to get new jobs! There is just as much tag abuse and poaching going on with everything else. LAME excuse sorry they are forced to do the job they were hired to do.
I helped 2 junior hunters get their first turkeys this year and it was one of the best hunting experiences I've ever had!
"The difference is your totally willing to allow tens of thousands of law abiding children and parents to suffer for the sins of some fraction of a percentage of the hunting populace."
Really children an parents suffering?? OH my God it's the end of the freaking world if junior can't wack a deer next year cause he's only eight. You guys are something else. You act like im against hunting because my views are different than yours. Remember I have a child that is ten who hunts. Not with a high power rifle yet, but soon! My decision, my beliefs! I guess I'm not as liberal when it comes to putting a rifle in child's hand. Maybe part of it is because I listen to dozens of people every year discuss hunting and explain in detail how they have broke game laws. The worst part is they don't even know they broke the law! These same people mentor kids. I guess in the long run none it really matters cause these kids will be taught the same no matter what their age.
S&S the PGC isn't telling anyone to sit at home. just wanting to change the ages for a kid to hunt. If there wasn't a Mentored youth program my kid would have still been out with me at the age of 6 hunting. Not shooting but hunting. There is so much you can teach a kid about the outdoors without a weapon in his hand. If your sitting at home that is your own fault.
Killing is not a necessity to becoming a good woodsman, and a kid can certainly learn how to use a weapon (at any age)without killing anything. YES taking animals is large part of becoming a hunter, but not the most important. So if the proposals become law are you guys going to throw your hands up in the air and quit?
"children and parents to suffer for the sins" Damn that was good Roger:)
Heck I doubt if any kid will notice the difference if the law changes, and I'm sure most hunters won't know that it changed!
S&S I missed your post about me being the Minority. I'm fully aware of that! I don't have a slice of pie.I'm surely not asking anyone to rule in my favor! I ain't asking the state for anything more than what we have. If they took the last week of Nov away from the bow/crossbow hunter I would not make a peep. I would hunt around it. Heck I've gotten used to losing in this state when it comes to hunting! At first I was bitter about Inline season. I haven't bowhunted that week for several years now. Don't miss it don't care. Still get plenty of opportunity to hunt. The crossbow introduction has not affected my hunting at all! I hold no ill will against them or the law. Although I will never include a X bow in a conversation about archery! Could care less about Sunday hunting. If they pass it I will hunt, but I have no concerns about it. I'm passionate about the outdoors! All aspects! Heck my life revolves around seasons, tags, bonus points, etc. I have done more work in the area of hunting in the last three weeks than most hunters will do in several years. My son and I backpacked several miles tonight in preparation for backwoods camping trips this summer. In reality I'm sure that I could fit in to just about any group of hunters, but yes I often keep my viewpoints to myself because I realize they most likely won't be share by the majority of the group. Im cool with that!
"OH my God it's the end of the freaking world if junior can't wack a deer next year cause he's only eight...."
Again, no Chuck, it's not the end of the world, but then again, your the only one who said that it was. If what your saying is true, then it's also true that if we do only permit 9+ yr. old kids to hunt, then it *IS* the "end of the world" if he/she hunts and doesn't "whack a deer". Dude, does that make sense? All that your telling anyone is that if they hunt then it is all about killing. Chuck, this makes no logical sense.
Your still refusing to answer the questions posed about adults poaching deer where there are no children of any age, whatsoever, involved. How does prohibiting kids under the age of nine stop poaching?
"Heck I doubt if any kid will notice the difference if the law changes, and I'm sure most hunters won't know that it changed!"
I would like to see you rationalize this to a kid who's already been hunting these last few years and hasn't reached the age of nine. Or, a kid who's been watching and waiting his/her turn to hunt as an older sibling has done before them. For all this rhetoric you still haven't provided any compelling reason for any of us to oppose the current standing the way you have.
"The 10 people I know who don't know the laws" that's funny? I wish it was 10. You must not get out much. I seen more than 10 people the first day of rifle season driving 4 wheelers/ATV on land where it's prohibited. Some of the ten had children with them. You guys must not get out much or hunt private land. Roger I don't understand where I stated hunting was all about killing, but I feel that is the general thought here. So I don't care for the mentored youth program. How would I explain to my son that he couldn't hunt if the law changed to let's say 12 years old to hunt big game. Very simple. You can't hunt big game this year! We will focus on other game animals. Maybe fish a little more this year. Whatever we ain't going to cry over it.
Let me ask you two how you feel about a youth hunter killing any buck. Then tell me how you feel about antler restrictions.
I started going with my grandfather training dogs in August and hunting small game when I was 8. We hunted squirrels and rabbits. Shot my first rabbit when I was 10. Still, my dad didn't allow me to go hunting on the first day of deer season until I was 14. I could go other days just not the first day. He felt is wasn't safe for me to be out there.
I followed a similar path with my son - getting him in the woods during hunting season at an early age but I let him hunt deer when he was 12.
Truthfully I don't know how I feel about mentored youth hunting. While I totally support getting kids interested in hunting I just don't see giving a rifle to a kid who is 10 years old and having him/her with me in the style I hunt. Maybe if I used a blind it would be different. Plus, there are fewer deer today than when I started in the 60s and I remember well it helps maintain the interest if you see deer from time to time.
The lawbreakers will always be there. That should be no excuse for changing the program. I would welcome changes to improve the program and do as much as possible to get kids more involved. Should youth have antler restrictions? IMHO, not if you want to generate and keep interest. Let them have some exemptions to peak their interest and get them hooked. Antler restrictions can follow.
Manny issues and views to be discussed here, and many valid points, and although I don't have a "dog in the fight", I'll give my view. My youngest boy is 24, and like me and many others here, he had to wait until he was 12 to legally hunt. That did not stop him from accompanying me at an earlier age with his BB gun or sling shot. My son was nuts about hunting when he was a tike, I think most are. Guns, bows, ATV's, camo, decoys, that stuff is just cool!
The problem with MY that I see, and I have seen it many times is that to many times it is used to stroke dad's ego. "Look at the big buck my 9 year old shot at 60 yards with his crossgun". Do they realize how that could have gone horribly wrong??? An unrealistic shot and a wounded and lost animal could very well result in a lost future hunter. Ever see that parent on the sideline yelling at his kid to be a better football / soccer / baseball player? Some parents want to live vicariously through their children, and sadly, I've seen it in the field. Our children are very much into social media and TV, and I think the whole "horn porn" thing is a terrible influence. Our children are raise Quicker, faster and easier, when the lifestyle of hunting is actually, simpler, slower and patient.
I read the posts of some of you regulars on here, and the experiences with your young kids, and my hat is off to you guys. You are doing a great job! The future of our tradition depends on it. My son hunted small game, waterfowl deer and turkeys with me for several years, and even shot a nice eight point at age 15. At sixteen, he told me he did not want to hunt anymore. At the time, it broke my heart.
Chuck, I'm fine with mentored kids killing any buck, the same way I'm fine with a 13 yr old kid killing any buck. My kid and all of his buddies who hunt fully realize they will have to abide by AR's when they buy the adult license. We have had no issues it. By the way, I'm answering your questions, but still not getting any answers from you on mine.
I'm fine with mentored kids hunting too. It's those old coots that scare me, hell some of them don't have enough hair on their head to make a fake rabbits foot:)
I see some people are worried about a kid with a gun. Thought the MY law was the kid wasn't allowed to carry the gun around, thought the mentor was supposed to give the child the gun when it was time to shoot??
My daughter is gonna be 7 and if she wants to hunt, there is NO WAY she will be handling the gun till it is time to shoot! Plus, I'll be right beside her to make sure of what she is doing!
In my mind, I think doing it that way would be safer then a 12 year old carrying his/her own gun.
Ben
WHoa! Now your making it personal S+S. I never said my son couldn't hunt with a high power rifle. I'm just saying its no great loss IMO if he couldn't.
Roger the AR program directly contradicts it's own intentions. Would either of you agree that AR's have taken and or restricted opportunities for hunters?? Can you see that teaching a child at an early age that he can only harvest mature animals would build better hunters in the long run. Maybe even eliminate or curb the "I gotta kill a deer" mentality over a period of time. Just for the record I like AR's but feel this program also need further tweeking. I wish they would implement a program like this into turkey hunting. I would love to see it illegal to shoot a jake! (cant wait to see where that goes)
Bowjo you said a mouthful with your statement "to stroke dads ego"!
I started hunting in 1965, the year I turned 12. That was the law.
I started killing in 82 when I was 12. That was the law. Started hunting way before that!
Ben the gun really isn't the issue, Its the parents and what age does a kid understand the difference between right and wrong in the woods. To what length will the parent go to ensure success?
Phil,you don't give kids enough credit.During rifle season I'm a still hunter and that's how I taught my son.We don't use treestands and I don't own a blind or even know where a foodplot is.I do put some small drives on from time to time however.I bought my son a bi-pod that he can use sitting or standing.When we walk,he carries the Bi-pod entended and I carry the rifle.When we see a deer,it literally takes me a second to get the rifle to him and for him to get on the deer.To date,he's killed 4 deer still in their beds and the first was when he was seven.When we sit,I have a gorilla tree seat that straps on the tree.It's light enough to carry that you don't even know it's there.I set it high enough that he can stand and shoot.That way he can maneuver better at a deer that comes in from a different angle.We don't hunt with areas that have a high deer density.Every area I hunt is dmap'd and either pubic land or open to anyone.The most deer we've ever seen in a day has been 10.We usually do see some and we capitalize on those opportunities.We both shoot thousands of rounds each year and from field positions.I'm not saying this to boast but here's our record the last three years just in rifle season hunting the first day and both saturdays.I'm only saying this point out that it can be done with a young kid,actually hunting and doing it at today's deer densities.Three years ago he killed a doe and I killed an 11 point the first day.The next saturday we killed a double that ware bedded down.On the last day,I killed two more.Last year,he killed a doe on the first day.He killed a buck and I killed a doe on the first saturday.On the last day,we doubled on doe and I killed another one later that afternoon.This year,he killed a doe on the first day and buck the first saturday in the pouring ran and I killed a doe.On the last day,I killed two doe and he killed a doe.The last nine times he been out with a rifle,he's killed deer 8 of those times.Again we aren't seeing piles of deer either.These are dmap'd properties in two different counties where most people claim there's no deer.I hunt where I expect deer to be.We go in before first light and come out after dark.If we kill a deer,we just keep hunting.You may say well,he spoiled with that kind of success.That isn't the case.We don't see many deer,which taught him patience.Never once has he ever complained about being bored or asked to leave early,never.If you teach a kid how to still hunt,there's so much to see and so much to earn about everything,there's no way they can be bored.You may not believe me and I honesty would expect anyone to.However,Mike Foust has been with us almost every day during rifle season the past 3 years and he'll tell you the same thing I just did.
"I started killing in 82 when I was 12. That was the law. Started hunting way before that! "
Chuck, I don't understand what you meant by that statement.
Bowjo.... He'll be back:)
Dave I was hunting with my dad well before the age of 12. No weapon, just a spectator. When I turned 12 I could now kill the animals we were hunting.
Doug it sounds like you have dedicated young hunter. Your lucky. Most of the kids I hunt with don't last long in the cold and have zero patience. Now I am intrigued as to how you taught your son patience. I struggle with this teaching this aspect of hunting.
Gotcha. I was doing the same, except I didn't consider it hunting. I was the dog. :^)
From: Ben Farmer ........ ....... Date: 15-Jan-15
I see some people are worried about a kid with a gun. Thought the MY law was the kid wasn't allowed to carry the gun around, thought the mentor was supposed to give the child the gun when it was time to shoot??
Yeah Ben- that is how it is supposed to work!
Dogs are great hunters:)
Funny you should mention that, it brought back some great memories:)
I see that the US SPortsmen's Alliance has gotten involved! Got this e-mail from them yesterday:
Pa. Game Commission Proposal Attacks Mentored Hunting Contact Your Commissioner Today! A proposal before the Pennsylvania Game Commission would make the state the first in the nation to eliminate opportunities for young people to hunt. In 2006, Pennsylvania became the first state to adopt a mentored hunting season, which allows an experienced mentor to take a newcomer hunting under close supervision. The program has since swept the nation, with 34 additional states joining and more than 1.2 million mentored hunting licenses sold. Now, due to concerns about a few law breakers, commissioners will hear a proposal at their meeting scheduled for Jan. 25-27 that would eliminate hunting for deer and turkey for mentored hunters under age 9. In 2012, nearly 10,000 youths under age 9 experienced hunting for the first time under this program, the vast majority of which hunted deer and turkey. In total, more than 30,000 new hunters took part in the mentored hunting program in 2012. This proposal would eliminate one-third of those youth hunters. There simply has not been a demonstrated need or evidence provided to make such draconian changes to the mentored youth hunting program. In fact, data shows that mentored hunters are significantly safer than the regularly licensed hunting public. “This proposal treats mentored hunting with the same broad brush that anti-hunting groups view all hunting,” said Evan Heusinkveld, vice president of government affairs for the U.S. Sportsmen’s Alliance, which champions mentored hunting across the country. “We don’t ban all hunting due to a few trespassers or poachers. Instead, law enforcement should be able to deal with problem individuals without dismantling part of the most successful hunting recruitment program in the United States.” Sportsmen and women expect members of the Pennsylvania Game Commission to be pro-hunting, and to make decisions based on solid research and data, and not unconfirmed allegations or the occasional bad actor. Pennsylvania sportsmen and women do not deserve to be blindsided by last-minute proposals that drastically restrict hunting rights with no justification. This proposal should not be approved, especially since there has been no public discussion of evidence and facts to support such a restriction. Calls and emails opposing this proposal should immediately be sent to members of the Pennsylvania Game Commission. Here is contact information for Commissioners: Jay Delaney Jr District 7 - Carbon, Luzerne, Lackawanna, Monroe, Pike, Susquehanna, Wayne and Wyoming counties Phone: 570-592-1073 E-mail: [email protected]
Charles E. Fox District 5 - Bradford, Columbia, Lycoming, Montour, Northumberland, Sullivan, Tioga, and Union counties Phone: 570-266-0921 E-mail: [email protected]
Brian H. Hoover District 8 - Schuylkill, Berks, Chester, Northampton, Lehigh, Bucks, Montgomery, Philadelphia and Delaware counties Phone: 610-212-8817 E-mail: [email protected]
Timothy S. Layton District 4 - Bedford, Blair, Cambria, Fulton, Huntingdon and Somerset counties Phone: 814-691-3192 E-mail: [email protected]
Ralph A. Martone District 1 - Erie, Crawford, Mercer, Lawrence, Venango, Butler, Warren, Forest and Clarion counties Phone: 724-674-8450 E-mail: [email protected]
David J. Putnam District 3 - Cameron, Centre, Clearfield, Clinton, Elk, Jefferson, McKean, and Potter counties Phone: 717-480-2283 E-mail: [email protected]
Robert W. Schlemmer District 2 - Allegheny, Armstrong, Beaver, Fayette, Greene, Indiana, Washington and Westmoreland counties Phone: 724-610-8575 E-Mail: [email protected]
Ronald A. Weaner District 6 - Adams, Cumberland, Dauphin, Franklin, Juniata, Lancaster, Lebanon, Mifflin, Perry, Snyder and York counties Phone: 717-357-7874 E-mail: [email protected]
WOW US sportsmen's alliance involved! Must be more important to many than I thought!
Chuck,I'm not sure if you can teach a kid patience or not.I think it's something they either have or they don't.I will tell you this,if I ever tried sticking him in a blind and told him to look out a little window,he's tear the thing down.I started out by just taking him in the woods when he was small.We never saw anything but he was just interested in everything that was out there.It's easy for us because we live in the middle of no where.I just had him out every chance we had.I started letting him tag along on some quick hunts when he was 5 and 6 but we never saw much.The most action he ever saw was me whiffing on a doe in the early muzzleloader season one year.I never put the thought in his head they we were going to see much of anything.If we saw a deer,it was a bonus.When he stared hunting,we almost strictly still hunted.There's just so much to teach a kid when you move around,they can't get bored.He has learned that if we hunt fresh sign that we recently scouted,use the wind,walk quiet,use cover to our advantage glass more than we walk,we'll eventually see something.I don't know if I'd really call that patience.I would have a hard time believing that I could get 4 or 5 hours out of him on stand so I wouldn't call him patient as much as I would call it just confidence.I have a hard time believing that you have a good chance turning a kid into a hunter by sticking him in a blind with an ipod and make him freeze his butt off.I try and make every hunt an adventure.We generally lay a plan out based on the wind and where we expect deer to be.I let him give me input so it's our plan.when it works out,there's nothing like it.
A big thing is shooting,shot placement and anatomy.3D shoots are great for that.Unfortunately,they're pretty much a thing of the past these days.Again,I have a range right outside my kitchen door.He literally shoots thousands of rounds every year.If a deer stops and gives him a clear shot,even for a second,it's pretty much dead.
Doug, you do have a dedicated young hunter. Unfortunately I'm betting you and your son are in the minority. But good for you.
Chuck, I understand your argument that ARs may make a better hunter but I disagree 100%. Kids need to be brought along a process. I completely agree with having the goal be ARs but along the way kids need to keep their enthusiasm and learn. In all of life we build up to a child becoming an adult. Some get there quicker than others but I see nothing wrong with relaxing rules to allow kids to learn and grow their excitement and expectations.
Glad they are on board. I get email updates from them regularly.
Hopefully the majority of Commissioners feel as Martone does. I got a semi-personalized email response from him saying he is adamantly opposed to any changes to the MY program.
I believe my son probably has more enthusiasm for hunting and probably had more consistent success than most kids his age.I take hunting pretty serious,to the point that it's probably a sickness.I think he has that in his DNA as well because he's more obsessed about it than I ever was.His enthusiasm drives me so we work pretty hard at it because it's fun.I realize I'm lucky and I never take it for granted.The truth is,hunting isn't that important to most people who hunt.I think most guys do try to teach their kids the right way.I just think some think only about the success and feel kids need early success and have to see a lot of game.I don't believe that at all.I think kids just need to realize that it's fun being outdoors.If they just like being out there,it really doesn't matter what they see or kill.That has to start way before they ever carry a weapon.My son likes being out there.I really don't think it has anything to do with him being patient.I feel that making it easy for them is a huge mistake.I won't let my kid hunt out of a blind,over a foodplot and I won't take him to a youth pheasant hunt with stocked birds either.I make him earn it.When they earn anything,it builds confidence and gives them satisfaction.I believe there's a difference between hunting and killing and I want him to believe that as well.At this point,I believe he does.Right or wrong,that's just the way I look at it and I'm not criticizing the way others do it.I may put more into than some but I don't believe I'm actually in the minority.I think the majority of guys who take young kids out are doing it for the right reasons.They may go about it different but their hearts and intentions are in the right place.Spending one on one time with you kid with no distraction is priceless.I'm not sure if there's a wrong way to do that.
"Would either of you agree that AR's have taken and or restricted opportunities for hunters??"
In fact I would not say that at all. You only need to look at hunter success rates on antlered deer pre and post APR's to find that overall they are nearly identical. Factor in Mentored Youth, antlerless bonus tags, lengthened archery seasons and other additions, and we have far many more opportunities to hunt for does and bucks than ever before.
"Can you see that teaching a child at an early age that he can only harvest mature animals would build better hunters in the long run. Maybe even eliminate or curb the "I gotta kill a deer" mentality over a period of time."
First, adhering to the APR's does not ensure the harvest of "mature animals" - it never did. Most of the deer that adults kill now that are APR compliant aren't mature deer. The overwhelming majority are 1.5 - 2.5 yr. old deer. And, I do not know one single kid, or teenager for that matter, that I would characterize as a "I gotta kill a deer" type hunter......Absolutely none. Your making stuff up now.
I realize there are those who think that the "MY" program is detrimental to kids and/or hunting. I also find it ironic that none of them have actually taken children eligible to participate and hunted with them. That says a lot. There are also those who concede that while my kid has flourished under the system, we are actually "in the minority". Really?......Show some proof once and for all. At my kid's high school, his outdoor's club host's "Laurel Sportsman Night Out". We get to talk to hundreds of parents and kids each year, many of whom are involved in mentored hunting. Every single anything that all of them say about the child's experience in doing so is 100% positive. Talk to those very young kids and they are ecstatic about their hunting experiences. All that it is doing is leaving a positive impact on children at an impressionable age - something every parent desires for their kids throughout childhood.
I know some people here don't bother reading regulations, but they should force themselves to do so. Mentored Youth *ARE NOT* permitted to carry firearms. Period. The weapon may only be handed to the child by the adult at a stationary location. I have never once seen an eight year old kid walking through the woods with a deer rifle and neither have you. That sort of conjecture and innuendo is total bs......No one is that stupid. There are no safety concerns with mentored youth and the proof is in the statistics. It is the absolute safest form of hunting. If it wasn't we'd have a slew of incidents and accidents. You are entitled an opinion, but not your own facts. Making things up doesn't make it unsafe or the wrong thing to do.
"Would either of you agree that AR's have taken and or restricted opportunities for hunters??"
No matter where one personally stands on the issue, the only objective, honest way to answer that question is... Without a single doubt.
As one who would have been perfectly content with any one of many animals I've had to pass that did not meet their guidelines, there's no other way for me to answer with any degree of honesty.
MARTONE WAS REMOVED TODAY BY THE GOVERNOR.
There are VERY few under the age of 6 using MY tags. I have the stats.
Something like 12-20 in the 2-3 year old range, and I bet a heck of a lot of that are grandpa's buying their grandkids their first "license".
There are NO safety issues. None.
What is being employed here is EMOTION. Now, who uses emotion against hunters?
ANTI HUNTERS.
Now, lets also use the emotional argument that there should be 4 weeks of archery season.
See where this is going?
Your bow season is in their sights and for the same reason the MY program is, EMOTION.....
Some here can't see the forest for the trees.
What's the story on Martone?
Roger you should be a politician! Without a doubt AR's have decreased opportunity for many hunters. You post is so far off it's almost comical. I'm not making anything up. We might just travel in different circles. I never said the program was detrimental to kids. Only that I can see the need for some adjusts based on what I have encountered, and seen with my own eyes. Nothing fictitious here. Just my own opinion.
Also I really don't appreciate you call me liar!
Here ya go Phil.
here is one VERY vindictive commissioner that was out to get Carl Roe, Ralph Martone and Joe Neville. Looks like he got all three now.
BTW, the governors office has lied. The guy they said they just placed in nomination, was actually placed there on November 6th, not yesterday.
This is sounding like one of those mechanical head fight threads... Just another day on the bowfight forum.
Hmmmmmm. That's interesting
Interesting Brad.
Man! I wish someone would hire me in Ohio!
Ben
Roger how can you possibly known what I've seen? I have never seen a kid with a rifle walking but I have seen one with a rifle sling over his back one the back of a ATV that his mentor was driving. Also I have learned from my experience what people say when in a group and what do in the field are often different, but I agree that most children under the age of 10 would consider a day of hunting a positive experience. Probably just because they got to spend time with dad.
Roger thanks for explaining to me the characteristics of a mature deer, I never knew. However I meant what I said teach these kids to be selective and hunt mature deer. Which according to masses here there are plenty of.
Just so everyone here knows none of my statement is "made up" just my own experience. No statistics, just several accounts I've seen with my own eyes.
Phil I agree with the progression but why not start out with doe and progress to Mature deer(to clarify for Roger I mean a deer with at least 4 point on one side, not a 4 year old deer) while adhering to ARs?
Wow Brad- WAY more going on here than apparently most of us had a clue about! :(
Before we drag politics into this the incoming governor didn't do this. The sitting one did.
Chuck, I think starting out with a doe is fine. I also think that kids need time to learn. Letting them shoot any buck won't damage the deer herd and may help keep them interested enough to make hunting a lifetime passion. There's a lot to learn about deer hunting. Even more about killing an older buck. Let's give kids a chance to learn that before holding them to the same standards as those of us that have hunted for years.
Ok Phil it's really not that deep of an issue for me. IMO opinion the AR program is more abused and flawed than the MY program. I just like to see how people defend it.
It's really not that deep for me either. I raised my kids a long time ago. :)
Oh boy I can see a pic coming......:)
Post it Dale. I've been threatened with dismissal if I post it again...:)
Can't be a pic coming - they didn't have cameras back then.
Thought I saw that pic on the wall of a cave somewheres. "^)
From: Phil Magistro ........ ....... Date: 16-Jan-15
Before we drag politics into this the incoming governor didn't do this. The sitting one did.
OK Phil, thanks for the clarification. I read that quickly and thought when they said "governor" they meant the new one! ;-)So I guess it was the OLD one that wanted Martone gone to influence the vote? If not, why not wait til AFTER the meeting next week?
Quote from Brad's link:
"Not at all," he replied, when asked if Martone was removed before the Jan. 25-27 meeting because of his support for the commission's mentored youth hunting program, which has been maintained in its current form at some recent commissioner meetings because of a split vote of 4-4 with Martone being a primary supporter of the program.
The mentored youth hunting program allows youngsters under 12 – the age at which a young hunter can receive his or her first junior hunting license – to hunt some species with the direct supervision of an adult. The agenda for the upcoming meeting includes proposed changes to bring new limitations to the program. "To have an empty chair" at the commissioners' table "will definitely affect the outcome" of the vote on the program, Martone said.
Well if they are that worried about a kid having their own tag for a buck or turkey, why not let the parent transfer their buck and turkey tag to the kid?
I'd give up my tags to let my kids shoot any day! In fact, may just to that no matter what these idiots say!!
Well said Ben, isn't that the way it started out???
HEY PHIL, did ya miss me?
Ill tell ya why Ben, most guys won't give up their tags. It's just not fair to many? I'm with you, I would gladly give my kid my tags. Hell some of the best hunting seasons I've ever had were without punching a tag!
No Chuck.When it started they actually just made up their own tag.
I would gladly transfer every tag to my kid as well.I'm sure most mentors would do the same.Heck,I'd give my tag to your kid.
Heck, I'll give my tag to Doug or Chuck's kid, or anybody else's kid for that matter, and it's an expensive tag. :^)
Hell some of the best hunting seasons I've ever had were without punching a tag!
You have had quite a few best seasons, Chuck.. LMAO
Chuck, I'll do it you ya...
Pot meet kettle...:^)
Well, I just sent another e-mail to the PGC. Let's see if I get any response this time.
My buddy has 2 sons, both MY, how would he transfer his one and only buck tag to them????
This past gun season I am waken by a barrage of gunshots on the property next to my 20 acres. I look outside and see a car parked just past my driveway. I go down to check it out there is a kid prolly 7 and two chicks in their 20's in the car all with orange hats and vests on. I drive around the square and see a truck parked around the corner. I pull back in my driveway and am greeted by my brother who was hunting behind the house. He said two guys opened up on a group of doe and killed at least two that he saw go down from his stand on the boarder of my property.
We are in my driveway talking and the guys come out the girls and the kid get out they are talking you can hear everything they are saying pretty much and the last thing the girl yells to the one guy is " YOU NEED OUR TAGS DONT YOU" now I know the kid does not have his own doe tag so they prolly used the girls tags but I would bet that if a illegal buck would have presented a shot those guys would have killed it and brought the kid over to tag it. These guys are known outlaws in the neighborhood I've told the warden about all the poachers around here. Hard to catch them red handed. They have to be there when it happens, advantage poachers.
Mike
Chuck, I wasn't shooting at you. I never miss. :)
Mike I see the scenario you explained more often than not. The ATV abuse is hard to believe where I hunt. Signs everywhere on timber Co property's that clearly state closed to motorized vehicle. They are just ignored. Why? Well my guess is one CWO per county. Very hard to get caught. These outlaws commonly teach their kids its ok to ride on these properties. law breaking passed from generation to generation. Wish that was the worst of it, it's not. For those of you that think it's only a handful of people. I believe you are mistaken.
Ah I was waiting for someone to say that, I thought that Roger would be the first. I'm not here to police the world. I paid my debt to society and this country 10 times over in my life. I agree that failure to report these violators does nothing, but snitching can cause more problems than it's worth especially in the small community where I hunt. This is the reason we pay taxes and vote. So someone else can get paid to deal with those outlaws, and I have over the years suggested or solicited the PGC to hire more CWO's. Judge my character as you wish. I don't care! Those who know me best know they can trust me with anything!
OH BTW Im not the one "complaining" about the possible changes in the law. I never complain about not being able to hunt on Sunday (stupid law though). Heck I've even embraced the crossbow and inline hunter. I wouldn't call being concerned, bitching. Heck if that were the case then all that would ever go on here is bitching:)
"The law will be what I will be" Man that was deep! Sorry I misjudged you man:)
Told my 8 yr old about the change last night and he was bummed out.He got his first deer last year with a 20 gauge.Last year was the 1st time he told me he wanted to go and try and get a deer and turkey.He's spent hours with me scouting and can pick up sign better then most adults I know.I practiced with him on the gun and also used a 22 to get him use to using a scope.He missed his first few chances by not being able to get on the deer for a good shot quick enough.He hung in there and in time he got his chance and connected.He told the butcher exactly how he wanted his deer done and it was all gone pretty quick.I get that some people don't obey laws but some/most do.Believe it should be up to the parent.I spend 90% of my Pa hunting helping my boys,and that's made it a lot more exciting for me to watch them get their deer,turkey or small game or my oldests first bear this season.My youngest daughter has now been asking to go and she's 6.She's too little for the gun,but was thinking about getting her a crossbow to join along with us.I know that's a dirty word,but the only weapon she can handle at this time.And I have to add she has a bow and pretty good with it.Just can't pull the weight it takes to hunt deer
The change has not been voted on, yet.
This Sunday is public comment at the PGC in Harrisburg, we need people to show up, with kids, to tell these arses how we feel.
The PGC Commissioners took the proposal for a SGL permit for non hunters off the agenda today after getting "hundreds" of emails objecting to it.
The MY proposal is still on the agenda....
Anti-hunter Commissioners bending to hikers, but not recognizing HUNTERS and their issues.
Again, I'm asking, under this new proposal, why is it ok for a 6 year old to hunt groundhogs with a 243, but not a deer with the same gun?
It's all about DEER!
I don't know what THEY are thinking Brad, but common sense offers that it could be due to the different situations often existing between the two?
I know I was selective of the hunts I exposed my kids to in the beginning depending on the circumstances likely to surround them. I took them with me on hunts that were likely to be slower paced and more 'deliberate' or 'controllable', like groundhog hunting years before I'd consider taking them out deer hunting(both prior to them carrying guns and when they did), especially the first day of deer season when it was like a war zone out there. Not all hunting is equally appropriate for 6 year olds... or inexperienced hunters of ANY age, imo. For instance, I wouldn't want a very young and/or inexperienced hunter swinging on a running rabbit with my dog in hot pursuit, or a grouse(or deer) that flushed between us out the back door. Just sayin'.
"It's all about DEER!"
Yep, it sure is. If Mentored Youth hunting were limited to only Squirrels for instance then NO ONE would oppose it. Likewise, you wouldn't hear a peep from those exclaiming it's "a safety issue", or "6 year olds don't comprehend killing", or "why does it have to be about the kill?". Start to intrude a bit on someone else's deer hunting, however, then they open flood gates.
Yep. Good point. Well, sorta.
Deer Schmeer. I'm down wit dat... but I may oppose 'it' based on what I said in the previous post about safety and readiness, Roger. It has nothing to do with deer, or 'my deer', or 'my squirrel or rabbit', etc. In fact, as noted previously, the parent SHOULD be able to deduce whether the child was 'safe and ready'... should.
I'm jumpin outta here before I get sucked in too...
c-ya.
I'd like to see a youth ONLY deer hunt here like they do in Ohio! There would really be a lot of crying then!
In Ohio, kids of any age up to 16 get to hunt buck or doe the weekend before the regular shot gun season. This is usually around the 20th of November when the bucks are still looking for those last a available does. Should see some of the huge bucks these kids take!
I agree, Jethro, and sorry if ya' thought that was aimed at you because it definitely wasn't. Just wanted to support Brad's point, which is valid; that this discussion doesn't happen if the almighty, all consuming, all world game animal isn't involved.......I'm actually surprised the legions of followers in PA haven't constructed a colossal step side pyramid in honor of THE WHITETAIL, the likes of which would have made Imohotep himself enraged with jealousy.
I take it Ohio game commission knows what they are doing, compared to Pa's zoo commission.
Zero safety issues with MY. Safety is not a major concern, moreso and emotional response.
Fight for hunting using facts and data, not emotion.
Last year we lost a September start to squirrel season due to COMMISSIONERS using "safety" as an issue.
Squirrel season starts September 1st in Ohio and runs till January 31st:))
Guess they do know what they are doing in Ohio RC:))
I've just read the entire thread, same topic, same theme, same rhetoric, same logics and lacks thereof on another site. (one of only two I visit now, and rarely at that) Believe it or not..I'm speechless.
I'm so glad I decided to return to my mountains in NC PA to live out my remaining days....doing my best to do right by ALL people...simply by examining the depths of how patient, caring, understanding, tolerant, sharing, and loving I can really be.
The 'project' is still in 'progress'...but so far the results have been it was a good plan.
Have at it though. I guess yer all having fun, right?
ed
Glad to hear there is still progress with the project, Ed! Keep up the good work! : )
30ftup- I just pulled this from the PGC site:
NO MINIMUM AGE PLACED ON MENTORED YOUTH HUNTERS All could continue to hunt deer and turkey, but only those 7 and older would be issued harvest tags.
There still is no minimum age to participate in Pennsylvania’s Mentored Youth Hunting Program.
And there is no minimum age for Mentored Youth to hunt deer and turkey.
However, the Pennsylvania Board of Game Commissioners today gave preliminary approval to a measure that would require any antlered deer or turkey harvested by a Mentored Youth hunter younger than 7 to be taken with valid harvest tags provided by his or her adult mentor.
Antlered deer and spring harvest tags would be issued only as part of the Mentored Youth Hunting Permits issued to Mentored Youth ages 7 through 11.
The transfer of an adult mentor’s tag to a Mentored Youth hunter is not new to the Mentored Youth Hunting Program. Under existing regulations, any harvests of antlerless deer or fall turkeys by Mentored Youth hunters must be taken with valid harvest tags provided by an adult mentor.
The proposal moved forward by the commissioners is an extension of those rules.
In voting to preliminarily approve the measure, the commissioners noted their continuing concerns over purported harvests by extremely young Mentored Youth that, in actuality, are unlawful harvests by their adult mentors.
The proposal addresses that concern, while continuing to give parents the opportunity to introduce their children to hunting at ages they consider appropriate.
The Mentored Youth Hunting Program was established in 2009 to give children 11 and younger the opportunity to experience hunting in a tightly controlled setting.
At present, Mentored Youth may only hunt deer, turkeys, squirrels, woodchucks and coyotes. And the Mentored Youth and adult mentor, together, may only possess one sporting arm between them while hunting. The adult mentor also must carry the sporting arm at all times while moving.
All Mentored Youth hunters must obtain a $2.70 permit that is valid during the license year in which they hunt. If the proposal that passed preliminarily gains final approval, deer and spring turkey harvest tags would continue to be issued for Mentored Youth ages 7 and older.
NEW ONLINE OPTION FOR HUNTER EDUCATION APPROVED
Traditional, instructor-led courses to remain unaltered.
New hunters and trappers soon will be able to become certified to purchase their first licenses without ever having to leave their homes.
The Pennsylvania Board of Game Commissioners today gave final approval to a measure that allows for the development and implementation of a new Hunter-Trapper Education course to be offered wholly online.
The approval will not impact traditional, instructor-led Hunter-Trapper Education courses, which will continue unaltered.
As it is now, nearly 1,000 traditional Hunter-Trapper Education courses are taught each year in Pennsylvania by a dedicated team of volunteer instructors. Nearly a decade ago, the Game Commission also implemented an independent-study course, the majority of which can be completed online. Those enrolled in the independent-study course, however, must arrange to take the test in person after finishing their online study.
With the fully online course, students will be able to start and finish the test at home.
There will be a cost associated with the online course, which will be routed to the company that makes the course available online.
A legislative mandate requires Hunter-Trapper Education courses be offered free of charge, and all traditional courses would continue to be offered free of charge.
The measure approved by the Board of Commissioners allows for an online-course fee to be established, but the fee will go to the private entity that administers the course.
Hunter-Trapper Education is a requirement for first-time buyers of hunting or furtaker licenses in Pennsylvania. Those who pass the course must then buy a license to hunt or trap.
While many no doubt will continue to prefer the traditional Hunter-Trapper Education courses, the online course figures to be more convenient for some, and will remove a barrier for students who might not be able to take a traditional class.
Sounds like the sky didn't fall...:)
I just don't see how 'the great compromise' did anything but provide a solution to a problem that never existed. All that this does is placate people not bright enough to understand that the overwhelming majority follow the law. And for the minority who won't follow the law, this will change absolutely nothing; they'll still poach deer.......but whatever.
You got it Roger. They publicized a problem that didn't exist and then "fixed" it.
NO MINIMUM AGE PLACED ON MENTORED YOUTH HUNTERS
That's the bottom line. No minimum age. Would have been nice if they woulda left it alone, but it could have been a whole lot worse!
Your right about that, Perry....it could've been worse. I just don't understand the need to penalize parents by "transferring tags", i.e., surrendering tags, in order to please those who don't comprehend what it is that actually goes on. As per usual, the wrong people pay the bill for those who dine and dash.
I think they did well.
At least they didn't take away the two weeks of bow season in November like Amos Full Of It predicted:)
I hear you Roger, but I really don;t think that is much of an issue. I think those that are taking out kids under 7 will GLADLY give their tags to those kids to get them out in the woods. This will only affect kids UNDER 7 and only for Deer and Turkey. And remember, you can;t be hunting anyway when you are guiding a mentored youth. I think most of the adult's time will be used getting that youth out and hunting when they are under 7- not used for hunting themselves. I really don't see this as a big issue!
I also don't see any problems with the changes. Roger is just a big cry baby...
Give them time Roy. 29% of the archery buck harvest comes in the last week......
The concurrent archery bear/deer season didn't fly. Ya'll noticed that, right?
Yep, I saw that. But they STILL have extended bear season the first week of rifle deer in 3A,3B,3C and 3D.
Roy, go play with your new dog, old man. Btw, Chris just emailed me and said Annie tore up your box of fluorescent orange depends, so no hunting, again, this year for you, 'ol codger. Who's crying now, baby? :) And, I paid a group of ATV riding kindergarten kids in your neighborhood to turn your deer "Field Of Dreams", in the 'holler, in to a demolition pit. Sleep tight, crossbow shooter. ;)
So goes Jr.s honey hole then..
Sacrifices must be made for 'the greater good'. :) No more kids and hunting. I'm on board with "The New Deal" now.
1. Always Keep The Muzzle Pointed In A Safe Direction
When I was a young lad you were lucky to get a doe license and was only allowed one deer a year. Poaching was going on, does being shot in archery season and not tagged so you could buck hunt. Why would you have to poach with doe tags being available for youths and adults. I've been getting three doe tags a year for the last couple years even though I'd only kill one doe. Sure I'd let a kid use a doe tag, why not. Why in the world would you poach when you can buy legal tags for a couple dollars????
Now that you can buy two tags for spring turkey letting a youth shoot a bird during the season is not a problem. I don't know a veteran turkey hunter who wouldn't give up a tag to see a kid shoot a Gobbler. As far as fathers shooting deer or turkey instead of letting their kids shoot, I don't see that happening very often.
I'd gladly transfer every tag to my kid but I only have one kid.What do you do if you have more than one?It was a solution to a problem that never existed.
