Martone Gone
Pennsylvania
Commissioner Ralph Martone, was removed by the Governor today.
The changes to the Mentored youth program will probably now go thru, and bowhunters have a good chance of going back to a 4 week season.
This board is full of anti-hunter, hunters. Hell, one of them doesn't even hunt!
Get ready folks.
Brad- what's the logic behind going back to a 4 week season. Don't understand what they are gaining from that?
Yeah I don't understand either Amos? The board has always been full of anti ' s what's changed. I also doubt that we will see any changes to archery season or the misguided youth program, My wife will be happy if we go back to a 4 week season:)
WHAT?????!!!!! That is CRAZY! On the Board Of Commissioners for the PGC and they're not a hunter???!!!!
I didn;t like Corbett much, but I knew when THIS guy got elected we were in trouble! :(
Looks like Ohio will be getting more money from Pa hunters if this happens.
I'm thinking about West Virginia.
I'd be back to Ohio that's for sure!
Yeah Chuck, WV too! I hunted WV for about 8 years straight along with Pa and OH till I got married and had kids. Had to cut back a little so now just Pa and OH:)
Count me in as one of the "dumbfounded" too... what reason would they possibly have to reduce the archery season back to four weeks? Pressure from disgruntled rifle hunters? Are the deer harvest numbers significantly lower than expected this year?
Very suspicious timing to let Martone go, to say the least. If they axe the first two weeks of November from archery, I'll be buying a Maryland hunting license this year, for sure.
Sh*t !!! What the %&#* !!
Man I don't like this Brad Gehman guy, he just ruined my day.. :)
Man do "We" have our work cut out for "US" now.
Times sure have changed from 20 years ago.. If it keeps going like this. We are going to see realtor signs on "OUR" game lands..
I remember when I didn't worried about hunting and enjoyed all my thoughts about it.. Now thinking about hunting and where it's going is stressful,, And I mean that!!!
Respectfully Ed R
I had NO idea,the last 2 wks. of Archery was in the mix!!! Heck,I was hoping to get an extension,up to rifle season. lol
Ed don't think about it! just hunt! No use in being stressed over Amos's and his sky is falling post. I will say now is the time to adapt. Many are smart in considering other states.
I'm gonna buy me a new deer rifle if that happens... And get me some mechanical rage bullets, heard they really open up a hole.
Ah heck RC I think I'm just gonna move out west. PA is doomed.
Well, I'm gonna stay right here and fight for our hunting herritage! Too many folks don;t care that much, or just take their $$ to another state. We need to STAND UP and make our voices heard!
Don't worry Perry PA will still get my money as long as I am a resident here.
It's about time we gave those two weeks back to the small game and turkey guys; we basically stole it from them anyway. And thank God we're getting kids out of hunting now. It was making me way too emotional seeing them in the woods shooting at everything from 4 wheelers anyway. Everyone knows taking kids hunting just turns adults in to poachers. Enough is enough.
OK, who are you and what did you do with Roger? Not that I care, just curious...
Tom Corbett relieved Martone unexpectedly, while at the same time nominating Daley from Butler whom has ties with the oil and gas industry. Sounds like more of a little "going away present" to the oil and gas lobby to me.
I doubt we will loose two weeks of bow in November. As for the youth hunt I would not have a problem if it was pushed back to 8-9 years old. I have a 5 and a 6 year old boys and I did not plan on taking them hunting till 9 or 10. They can come along with me now if they want but I don't think they need to be there just to pull a trigger. I have friends who's kids have taken deer at 6 and 7. The story usually goes something like this the kid plays video games on a phone in the blind untill he/she falls asleep then the father wakes the kid up to shoot a deer that stepped into the food plot. If your kids are ready to hunt at 6 or 7 then fine but I just don't see my boys being ready to hunt that young.
Mike
Daley had already been nominated on Nov 6th.
Removing Martone, before the end of his term extension and confirmation of his replacement was VERY out of the ordinary.
Funny how it came before crucial votes.
It changes the vote count. The MY program probably would have been a 4-4 tie, now it will be 4 in favor, 3 against?
There is a great deal of anti-bowhunter sentiment on this board, led by Delaney from Wilkes Barre. He pointed out that 29% of the archery buck harvest comes the last week of the season? Connect the dots.
Just reiterates what I already knew... about deer, trophy hunters, crossbows, and non-bowhunters.
Brad, Where does the anti-bowhunting sentiment come from? What does this board have against us, and why? Just curious to know what insight you might have...
Met and spoke to Martone a few times. He really seemed like a strait shooter, and a commissioner that would listen to your views. Probably the reason they got rid of him.
I've met and spoke to Ralph Martone a number of times. Like me, he's from New Castle. Not only does he care a great deal about hunting, but just as important, all hunters. Firing that guy is not a good thing. We can joke around all we want, but having him ousted is a bad sign of things to come.
Roger, you are SO right. Altho his term was actually up, he was serving the 6 month extension, but taking him out now is huge.
I'd give up the first 3 weeks of bow season before the last 2. That would seriously suck bad.
So often I look out the window and see the Ohio line just over the horizon. It's looking closer every day!
If only all hunters could shed their selfishness, we'd give up nothing. In the end we'll lose and it will be own our faults. I won't be one of the one's standing around scratching his head wondering why it all went down the wrong way.
Never gonna happen Rodger! We will do ourselves in! You and I at our age will see hunting as we knew it disappear. Selfishness is the problem. I can agree with you on that 100%.
Chuck, we only agree to disagree and disagree to agree. :) At the end of the day, all will lay in the collective bed we've made. It's uncomfortable, stiff, awkward, stupid, and I have the sinking feeling Roy will change the sheets and call us "sissy pants", every single time it happens. We had the chance to learn and act on it all, but it just didn't happen.......Inward and downward, ya'll. Suck it up, ladies.
Roger what exactly could we act on? I feel hunters have been given everything in my lifetime. I actually would have been happy if not one thing had changed since 1982 when I started hunting. Now Look at how things have changed to please the masses. What could we have done. Heck we supported and applauded most of the changes. Now we face more change. IMO most of it will bring more bad than good. I'm a firm believer in KISS. I think we have got off track.
Years ago I was angry like many guys here are right now. I made phone calls, wrote letters and watched my anger grow as felt wronged by "my" archery season being picked apart. It was a hard to almost impossible pill to swallow when the liberal seasons and bag limits eliminated the deer from the area I hunted. I almost gave up on hunting pa. I let my emotions cloud my judgment. Now after some years, beers and some good advice from friends I am happy with hunting. Excuse me for not caring or showing the concern as you guys do. It's really not healthy for me:) Don't get me wrong there are things I will stand up and fight for but my battles are chosen carefully.
Not here we sit with bear proposals, changes to the MY program. Flintlock hunters wanting in on our season. Good officials being released, etc. If history proves itself true we (meaning all hunters not just bowhunters) will all get what want at a cost.
From: Brad Gehman ........ Date: 16-Jan-15
There is a great deal of anti-bowhunter sentiment on this board, led by Delaney from Wilkes Barre. He pointed out that 29% of the archery buck harvest comes the last week of the season? Connect the dots.
That's very disappointing to hear, Brad. I had a lot of correspondence with Jay a few years ago before the Archery Bear Season went statewide. Always thought he was one of the "good guys".
I refuse to lay in a collective bed with any of you guys....especially if it is stiff, awkward, stupid, and uncomfortable. :-/
Really? You guys haven't figured out how this works yet? Martone was hand picked for his "special" qualities when he was initially appointed. How soon we forget.
The way the incentives are currently flowing the archery season change will never transpire. That's just "The Sky is Falling" BS. Not much lobbying power yet behind the mentored youth programs. They may take hit.
As I read through these posts, I'm led to believe I should list all my hunting gear on EBay. Color me stupid, but I still don't understand what the fuss is all about. After all, they can't just eliminate two weeks from archery season without sound reason, years worth of compiled data, and a scientific explanation...can they? I mean, everything else from the two week concurrent rifle season, antler restrictions, and the implementation of crossbows into archery were put into place in the same manner, right?
Besides, many of you are just looking at this the wrong way. I didn't know this before, but we (bowhunters), don't have just 6 weeks to hunt. We can hunt all year round. Any schmoe can shoot a deer during the month of October. What really gets my heart racing, is hunting groundhogs with my Hoyt....and I can do that ALL YEAR LONG!! Perfect shooting whistle pigs with arrows, and you can try your luck with crows too. If you can't fill your freezers full of woodchuck and crow, you're not really worth you salt...maybe even a sissy pants. You can always look forward to shooting the occasional squirrel or rabbit, but have found them to be less wary...and less of a challenge to make palatable.
I guess if we lose the two magical weeks in November, it will just separate us men from the boys. I've always been proud to call myself a bowhunter (PAbowhunter1064, to be exact), but I'm a regular Hunter as well. I didn't realize I was being selfish by having a six week long "deer season" in which to hunt with a bow. I will apologize to each and every one of you, for I see now, that I was part of the problem. Moving forward, I think we all should concentrate on becoming better small game hunters. I'm looking forward to the 2015 MeatPole thread already. The new 5C doe hunt t-shirts will read "Camp Whack-a-Mole". I'm gonna have to stop shooting Rages too...they're waaayy too expensive to chase down a groundhog hole when the blades don't deploy. :)
Good post pa bow! you have to admit it's pretty darn fun hunting deer the second week if November.
Funny stuff there, Pabowhunter. I can appreciate your sense of humor.
Flatlander, I'm with you. I tried hard to motivate bowhunters to help themselves on some important issues over the years and got almost no participation whatsoever. Now, I just worry about doing my own thing. If the laws that affect me change, I will too... like changing direction on a stillhunt when the wind shifts... keep moving forward. I pick my battles with discretion and they are few. Low/no stress is a key to health and happiness.
Brad's view may be pessimistic but it is worth taking notice. Commissioners can do whatever they want for their own reasons. If they want to eliminate two weeks from archery season they don't need a sound reason, they only need to convince enough other commissioners to get the votes they need. We've seen examples of how they go against the biologists in the past.
The concern about shortening the season was started years ago when the buck kill began to escalate. There may be valid reasons but it only takes one vocal group to get one Commissioner's ear. From there we have no idea of the backroom deals that take place.
It would be goof for everyone to at least send an email to the PGC showing support for the existing season.
Not worried about losing the Nov season.By including crossbows, they grew the ranks of archery hunters.As much as bowhunters don't like the crossbow,I think that they will actually help in saving those dates.I don't know the data but I'm sure someone on here does about how many more archery licenses they sell now as compared to pre-crossbow days.
Just Hunt!! Another Pa. site they are saying that they are going to remove crossbow season. January and everyone has cabin fever already.
mixed bag, crossbows didn't grow archery season. It's more that many compound bow hunters merely switched to crossbows. This wasn't something that surprised me at all, given that most participating in archery deer season really never considered themselves archers to begin with. They are just deer hunters hunting with whatever legal weapon the season happens to call for. And before anyone decides to interpret what I just wrote there, don't. Those are just facts and I couldn't care less.
Phil is correct. The PGC can do what it wants sans our approval, so if I were you PAbowhunter, I wouldn't go around telling people that the PGC can't do something........That could get embarrassing real quick. Send them email and let them know how you feel no matter what your stance is. Like you, however, my life doesn't revolve around the first two weeks of November like it does for so many on this forum. Hell, most guys don't even touch their bows until a week or two before the opener.
I sincerely believe Brad isn't naturally a "sky is falling" type person either, as some have labeled him. But, should we be concerned about anti-archery hunting hunters and non hunters on the board? We'd be crazy not to, IMHO. And we already know there is a push to severely limit the "MY" program. With regards to that, it astonishes how many say that it doesn't affect them or theirs directly, so they really don't care what happens to it. That's what never ceases to amaze me - hunters not caring about the rest losing something because it doesn't affect them. I just don't get that type of selfishness.
"That's what never ceases to amaze me - hunters not caring about the rest losing something because it doesn't affect them. I just don't get that type of selfishness." - Roger
I agree Roger. Right now, it doesn't effect me either if they knocked off the 2 weeks in November. I've only shot one deer with a bow in my life in November in Pa. I think it was the first year they extended our season into November back in the early 90s. Besides that, Ive been in Ohio for those weeks every year since 97.
With that said, I would hate to see them cut our bow season back to 4 weeks! We already have one of the shortest early bow seasons in the country at 6 weeks.
Ben
Ah news flash. We have a late season as well. We also have two weeks in Dec we can bowhunt. Jesus Roger it was only a matter of time before something had go given the lengthy seasons, bag limits, introductions of weapons, etc. How long did you think bow season as we knew it would withstand all this? Now most of you want to throw bear in the mix. He'll I bet if they wanted to implement an additional buck tag for archers you guys would be writing and ringing phones off the hooks. Again be careful what ya ask for.
Chuck, I don't know that anything "had to go", rather you get the 'right' hunters, like the majority - rifle only guys complaining, and panic can, and does, sometimes ensue. Then add in apathy, selfishness, ignorance and a generalized lack of solidarity among hunters, and there's little to no chance of doing good. Like some others here, I've really given up on hunters anyway. If they aren't smart enough to see what's clearly in front of their faces after all these years, then why should I keep the faith that they'll wakeup?
As soon as the weather breaks I'm going hunting for fish with my fishing rod, take the kid turkey hunting, then go do more fishing......I mean hunting for more fish. In fact, did just that out on the ice the other day for my birthday. :) In the interims I'll shoot my bow in the back yard for the pure joy of it. Didn't shoot a deer with the bow this year; must've been the first time that happened in I don't know how many years. In the end 'though it turned out be something else that couldn't have mattered less. My days of having to have a deer are in the rearview mirror now. It just concerns me what the future may hold for the coming generations.
Oh btw, Chuck, your not going to goad me by playing the contrarian......I'm at least smart enough not to participate in those silly games.......anymore. ;^)
In all seriousness, I can't fathom any bowhunter willing to give up the first two weeks of November. My observations have been that the major leith of deer activity starts around Halloween. In the last five years, all but one of my archery deer was taken during those two weeks. Like others here, I would hesitantly give up the first three weeks, before giving up the last two.
This is a serious setback for everyone who posts here, whether you're willing to admit it or not. However, I feel strongly that there will be no change to our current seasons or bag limits....Fall 2015 will be business as usual. Maybe the NRA will help back all of us "bowhunters" to keep "our" six week season...just like they helped out with getting crossbows included.
Roger- I think maybe you missed a hint of sarcasm in my last post in regards to the PGC. It's unfortunate, but what you say is very true....decisions are based moreso on emotion, politics, and money. In a perfect world, they would based on facts and general consensus. Btw...happy belated birthday...turning 50 is s pretty big deal!! ;)
lol...some guys just love trying to be a smart arse. Yeah Chuck, already knew we had a late season in Pa. That kinda why I said EARLY bow season in my post above.
Hey, but thanks for the news flash anyway:)
Lol Ben. I see that some of you have figured me out. Well at least the less emotional of yunz.
Hey Josh, I guess if they take away the 2 weeks in Nov. we'll just have to go out and "hunt" like Flatlander did when he was under 12 years old. He says it's great! ;-)
It was great Perry. What did I know? All I wanted to do was kill a deer. Any deer, and have my own story to share with the guys at camp. I can't think of any more pure form of hunting. My mind wasn't clouded with the politics behind every arrow I shot. I had one tag, be it a doe or buck it was my choice. I cherish those days! I've been trying real hard to get back to that time. Unfortunately those days are gone. Hunter's have made sure of it.
Chuck, I was the exact same way. But what changed wasn't due to other hunters, it was all on me. For a long while I made mistakes and learned. Then I started to put more of a challenge in it. I started shooting bucks instead of does. Then I held out for decent bucks. In addition to bows I started using pistols and muzzleloaders because it was more challenging than rifles.
Now I'm back full circle. I enjoy hunting with no pressure to keep up with anyone. Does are fine, bucks are fine. When I feel like it I'll let something walk. Maybe it's the been there, done that thing or maybe it's just getting older but I have nothing to prove to anyone but myself now and no other hunter can influence that.
Phil, you've written a lot here over the years that appeals to me, but that was as concise as it gets.......really hits home. Well said.
Nah Phil it's the evolution of a hunter. Been discussed here a million times. Sounds like your fully evolved:) I fully understand the process but i am also on the tail end of my trail. Noting to prove anymore. Not trying to out hunt, hike, or shoot anyone. Just happy to do what I do. Anymore things look good to me. I'm happy with every outdoor experience I get these days.
Roger you have to stop using those big words. I can't understand half of what u say. Sorry I was hunting when I should of been in school:)
"No pressure to keep up with anyone" I hear that a lot from hunters, that they feel pressured to kill bucks or just deer in general, I also here guys talking about all the competition in hunting. That is all self induced indeed. I don't feel pressured I am highly Driven but not pressured. The only competition I have is with the deer, I love to do this, if I ever started to feel pressured I guess I would just quit hunting all together. I guess I just don't understand how you could have ever enjoyed something if you felt pressure that you had to kill a certain size or gender deer.
I hear this a lot on here from many of you how it no longer matters if you kill deer, it's not important, or the old reliable been there done that, I can't wrap my head around that mindset at all. I hope it never happens to me because I TRUELY do what I do because I find it a challenge and I enjoy it, I more than enjoy it, it's a huge part of my life and it defines me. It's work done all year with a purpose, done willingly and with great enthusiasm. The end result is always venison in the freezer for the family. Could not think of anything I would rather be doing with my time other than being with family. Pressure? No pressure here, no regret.
Mike
It's been a wonderful journey so far, this hunting life, and to be honest, my favorite bowhunting (deer) memories are from back when we had the shorter season. To this day, I've shot more deer with a bow around the third week of October than any other time, and it's still my favorite time of year to hunt.
I too feel like my hunting life has seasoned or 'mellowed', with no need to validate or compete, even with wildlife... yep, and a 'been there done that' vibe... a humble one. I still love to be out there, and killing animals is a part of why I'm there, when that's what I'm there for :^) but I'm also aware of the subtle and not-so-subtle influences of the media, the industry, competitiveness, and other hunters that could and would have an adverse effect on my journey and values, and so I'm very careful not to allow it.
Mike, folks can be impressionable and can still enjoy something that they're 'pressured' or influenced to believe should be done a certain way or for certain reasons. In fact that's LARGELY how our civilization works, so I don't know why it would be hard to believe it would be any different with hunting.
"I hear this a lot on here from many of you how it no longer matters if you kill deer, it's not important, or the old reliable been there done that, I can't wrap my head around that mindset at all. I hope it never happens to me because I TRUELY do what I do because I find it a challenge and I enjoy it, I more than enjoy it, it's a huge part of my life and it defines me....."
Mike, well, I can only tell you how things changed for me. It happened 4 years ago when I started taking my own son hunting and that's all there is to it. Killing a deer for myself really plummeted down the priority totem. What I found was that it was so much more enjoyable to watch it all unfold for him and to once again see hunting through the eyes of a child, than it was to kill a deer.
Like you, I'd spent the previous decades chasing the deer and man did I kill tons of 'em - no freakin' clue how many. And the satisfaction was still certainly there, but some other things were really missing that didn't quite make sense, until that is, Jr. started hunting.
Where I work we all were all hired in at the same time a little over 15 years ago. And at that time the demographic was late twenties through the thirties. There was a gang of us archery hunters and all were basically alike. Everyone was chasing the whitetail, from Alberta all the way down in to the Heartland, and then back over to PA for the home game. :)All that any of us thought about, talked about, or wanted to do, absolutely revolved around deer hunting. Now, fast forward to present day and the same group at work are all at least in their forties with hunting age kids and some even have grandchildren too. Basically everyone else's mindset there pretty much mirrors mine.......Hunting became something much more satisfying without having the urge to actually kill anything.
Whether or not it all goes down that way for you sometime in the near future, really I wouldn't have a clue. But, for me anyway, it's the antithesis of disappointment actually.......and something much, much better than I could have ever imagined. Nope, don't feel bad for me, 'cause it's better now than it's ever been.
Not everyone goes through the same evolution. I know older guys, some who have already mentored their hunting children, nearing the end of their hunting careers who were always, and are still obsessed with antlers and 'gotta get that buck' every year. To each their own.
I'm 66 now, started hunting when I was 12, that's 54 years of hunting. Yes in the early years I had to kill a buck, now in my later years I could care less if I ever kill another deer. But I love seeing the youngsters getting deer.
Lol....I know just a few of those guys too, Jeff, and to be frank, yes, there is no way you could honestly call them evolved. :)
Anymore, I'd rather throw empty Coors light cans up in the air and shoot at them... I wanna see them shorten that season:)
"Basically everyone else's mindset there pretty much mirrors mine......." Boy I doubt that:)
Roger,very very well stated.That's pretty much exactly the way I feel.
Roger I see your point. I have been teaching my two little boy's how I hunt 365, they have been in the woods with me scouting checking cameras lookng for shed's, shooting their bows at deer targets sitting with me looking at trail camera photos, and maps on the Internet. I take them to ask for permission also. I do not see my process changing. When they are ready to hunt and are able to go with me thst day will be all about them but the days they are not hunting with me I will still want to harvest a deer for me. But I see what you mean and I understand what you mean when you say things changed for you.
Jeff as far as pressure goes for ME and I'm talking ME here not pointing figures at anyone but I feel like if I felt pressured to kill a deer or to keep up with anyone else then I would be hunting for the wrong reason. There is no written rule that I have to "evolve" or change the reasons why and how I hunt because I've already been there and done that? Like you I have been there and done that and I want to continue to do it. I didn't get into hunting so I could one day say it's time to slow down, it's not Inportant to for me to kill deer anymore because I've been there and done that. I'm going to continue to enjoy do what I do and enjoy the heck out of it. I'll leave the evolving for others to do.
Mike
I never said you had to do anything, but you're evolving whether you want to believe it or not :^)
Man! It must suck to be locked into being a deer only bowhunter. I feel bad for some of you girls.
Bob, for several years anyway I resembled that remark. ;^) The funny thing is the 'bow only, deer only' mentality wasn't my roots in hunting, but at some point it did devolve in to just that. When we were kids it was groundhogs in the summer with double deuces and the same weapon for the opener of squirrels. Bowhunting deer in October for some of us lucky to have a bow, then bunnies chased by beagles, ringnecks in rye fields and grouse through the grapevines all through November. "Buck Season" was a big deal, of course, and we all sent out for that one coveted doe tag. Flintlocks ruled the roost after Christmas........Wait, I forgot dove season way back there. :) Oh, and we did some goose huntin' in Pymatuning too - man was that fun!
I loved every bit of it. Lots of reasons why it all changed, too many to be certain. The culture is different now and there's no going back. Going forward appears to be a challenge as well, but for the most part that's our own faults......Just going to do my own thing for the time being and LMAO while some of these guys cry over the milk they spilled on themselves.
And he'll evolve a lot more when his boys start dating, go off to college, get married and move to another state. :)
"Man! It must suck to be locked into being a deer only bowhunter. I feel bad for some of you girls."
Bobby and I have a SC hog hunt to plan for, there's lots of small game to chase, and I saw Walmart has the turkey hunting crap out already. There's lots of things to keep a hunter busy other than the almighty deer.
I'm pretty happy with a longbow in my hand hunting whatever is "in" that day. Adapt and be glad you woke up this morning. Take a kid hunting, try something new, it's all good!
Just last week I was checking on groundhog holes to see if there was any breeding activity going on yet. I didn't see anything but I swear I could hear some Barry White down in one of the dens. I can't wait 'til the G-hogs start popping out. That's some pretty exciting hunting! Every bowhunter should give it a try.
Not that I think anything will happen to the two weeks in Nov, but I always prefered Oct hunting while there was still some ground cover and I have time to hunt after work. Besides, the so called rut is not as apparent around here as it is in other areas. Just saying.
From: Flatlander ....... Date: 18-Jan-15
It was great Perry. What did I know? All I wanted to do was kill a deer. Any deer, and have my own story to share with the guys at camp. I can't think of any more pure form of hunting. My mind wasn't clouded with the politics behind every arrow I shot. I had one tag, be it a doe or buck it was my choice. I cherish those days! I've been trying real hard to get back to that time. Unfortunately those days are gone. Hunter's have made sure of it.
Chuck, I think you missed my point. I said BEFORE you were 12- meaning before you had a tag. You know, just like those 7 and 8 y/o mentored youth that would not be able to hunt if the proposal passes. ;-)
And he'll evolve a lot more when his boys start dating, go off to college, get married and move to another state. :)
I pray to God they never leave the nest Phil, heck I wish I could keep them 5 & 6 they are big enough that I don't have to carry them everywhere we go in the woods but still small enough to cuddle with on the couch and watch cartoons, yeah I do a lot of that to.
But if they do move to another state I hope it's Iowa or Illinois or Kansas well Southern Ohio would be cool but maybe Eastern Calorado or Missouri OK anywhere where they have Big Whitetails ; )
Mike
"Bob, for several years anyway I resembled that remark. ;^) The funny thing is the 'bow only, deer only' mentality wasn't my roots in hunting, but at some point it did devolve in to just that. When we were kids it was groundhogs in the summer with double deuces and the same weapon for the opener of squirrels. Bowhunting deer in October for some of us lucky to have a bow, then bunnies chased by beagles, ringnecks in rye fields and grouse through the grapevines all through November. "Buck Season" was a big deal, of course, and we all sent out for that one coveted doe tag. Flintlocks ruled the roost after Christmas........Wait, I forgot dove season way back there. :) Oh, and we did some goose huntin' in Pymatuning too - man was that fun!"... Roger
Roger, that use to be me to a T!! I hunted everything that was in season. Now I deer hunt and turkey hunt only with the occasional coyote hunt thrown in there. Really though, the turkey are not that important either anymore to me.
I think about deer year round now days. With two small kids, I don't have the time I use to, so now when I get time to myself, I do something for deer hunting.
Since bow season ended, when I have time this winter I will be scouting for deer for next season. I would much rather do that then shoot a bunny or squirrel. Then in the summer, I will be checking fields in the evenings, putting out and checking cameras, hanging stands, and trimming shooting lanes. I would rather do that then shoot a whistle pig any day.
In all honesty though, even if I wasn't married with small kids, I probably wouldn't hunt small game anymore. It just doesn't do anything for me anymore. Some of you say you could care less if you ever kill another deer. Well, I could care less if I ever kill another squirrel or rabbit!
You're a man after my own heart, Red. Stalking groundhogs with a longbow is a beautiful thing.
I have a lot of new area to check out since I moved. Kinda starting all over, in more ways than one. I have to build a bow shop, have to get permission to hunt places, find groundhogs, turkey, squirrels, mushrooms, deer, everything all over again.... gotta adapt and overcome, gotta HUNT.
Good, that's my favorite part :^)
Already found a budding bowyer up here that needs help... another beautiful thing :^)
Red, you're checking ground hog holes for breeding activity? I sometimes wonder about you boys from up on the mountain. LMFAO
Perry you are totally missing my point. I don't give a chit what the state decides to do with the mentored youth program in regards to big game. I will work around whatever they do with my kid. Not being able to hunt deer under the age of 12 somewhat appeals to me. As stated above there is more to the outdoors than killing deer.
Another place we disagree is for some reason you feel that if passed a 7 or 8 year old will no longer be able to hunt. They will be able to hunt. Just not big game, and who says they still can't hunt those animals? They just won't be able to kill them.
I think some of you guys need to get out of the deer stand and see what the rest of the woods has to offer.
What's wrong with teaching a kid to have good woodsman skills prior to learning to kill. I think we have things backwards here. Lets place a youngster in a stand and shoot the first deer that walks by, gut it for them, and then drag it out. What was learned? The focus is to great on shooting and killing. Not enough on the process.
Red was just "venting". Red why were there handlebars on the back of that 3D turkey target Ithat I borrowed? :)
"Red was just "venting". Red why were there handlebars on the back of that 3D turkey target Ithat I borrowed? :)"
What do you think they're for? My groundhog target has ape hangers, streamers, and a little horn. Man, I love archery.
Chuck- I hear what you are saying and actually agree to some extent. But my issue is with starting this program with no age limit, then all of a sudden imposing an arbitrary age limit years later. Like mixed bag's son, and others, this could really disapoint a lot of kids that would be caught in the middle, where they were legal to hunt one year and not the next!
Ed- where's a pic of that pemmican?
Red- Ape hangers huh? You can be assured I thought of those when searching for an Internet pic of a turkey with handlebars lol
Perry- I couldn't agree more. Because it doesn't affect some directly, they don't care how this proposal will affect others. That selfish, too. It's a kick in the teeth for the kids who have flourished under the mentored youth program, and the adults who made the time, effort, and sacrifices necessary to pass along a hunting tradition.
Everyone here likes to talk about "adapting" and "evolving", and how much time has changed things. It's harder now than ever to get kids involved in an outdoor/hunting life. If sitting next to a kid in a deer stand, and letting him shoot the first deer that came along influenced a future generation of hunters, then this mentored youth program was worth it. I'm willing to bet most of these kids willingly took part in the gutting process, and were extremely proud to help drag their first deer out of the woods.
Like Perry, I feel sorry for the kids that will have to be sat down, and told that they won't be able to do it this year, because the "bad guys" ruined it for them. In reality, maybe it's just because there aren't enough "good guys" willing to fight for them.
WHY is harder now than ever. THAT'S is a bold statement. I think the state has gone above and beyond. With relaxed regs and youth seasons. I would say it's much easier now. I am compassionate towards the kids that will be caught in the middle of this if passed. Maybe the use grandfather clause and this will only effect future hunters.
Josh, you should see the litany of commentary at the HUSH website that Brad put up on Facebook. It amazes me in depth and breadth the level of sheer stupidity among hunters. There are guys there who want 10 to be the minimum starting age, because after all that's the age their kid started, so it must be the right age for everyone to start. Other yet who want 11, 7, 9, 13, whatever age and for the same reason. Then there are those who claim that they "know for a fact", at what age kids they've never met need to be to appreciate hunting......Oh, the safety 'issue' got brought up and I reminded them the program is 100% "safe" so far. Yes, stupidity. Folks just love their ignorance.
You are also correct in stating that it is more difficult now for kids to get involved than ever before, and that's just because of all the other activities they have available. Hunting has lots in the way of competition. Having said all that, there is no way you will get a pro kids type consensus here and guys have told you why in a direct way - it doesn't affect them and theirs, so the don't care.
That's what leads us to evolving/adapting. We're going to have to do it whether we like it or not. But wait......you wanna hear some real bitchin' and moanin'? Yep, me too, can't wait. That's going to happen, just as soon as some here lose something that is important to them. Gonna be a lot of big fish to catch in that river of tears. :)
Well...the Wolfe/Rendell administration is back in business! Get ready is right...We will see how much courage our state legislators have or do not have.
Isn't this a form of government telling us what is good for us again?
Personally, I don't want to hear any more bitchin and moanin than we have here now. I'm already past my limit :^)
Ed, your artwork on that bow came out really nice. Took some time I bet. Great job, as usual.
Because of all the other activities??? Are there some new activities that weren't around when I was a kid? Now I think your making stuff up Roger?
Roger has an imaginary fetish, Chuck!
WHY is harder now than ever. THAT'S is a bold statement.- Flatlander
Chuck, Im willing to bet the majority of hunters over the age of 30 here, came from a strong hunting family and had friends that did the same. When I was a kid, I couldn't wait to be like my dad, my grandfather, my brother, my cousins, my aunts and uncles, who were hunting. I grew up in a hunting family and from a very early age hunting was a large part of my life. Most of my friends were hunters too. We would tell stories from the field, and dream of the coming Fall. You could tell when "buck season" was in, because most of them were absent from school...along with a few teachers, too. Fast forward to present day, and there are stark differences. My son is one of a few kids in his middle school that hunt. He was once ridiculed by his classmates because he named "squirrel" as one of his favorite things to eat. He defended himself by explaining that he hunts for them, and that he is providing meat for his family. The teacher brought it up at a parent-teacher conference, and offered her opinion that "hunting doesn't really belong in class room discussions". I sincerely hope your children go to a more hunter friendly school, but the fact is that most don't condone our lifestyle...most actually teach against it. He is now 12, and four months away from becoming a teenager. If I would have waited until now to introduce him to hunting, I'm sure he would be willing to give up video games, iPods, weird music, sports, good grades, time with friends, and oh yeah...girls, to sitting in the woods with dad.
This generation of children is being raised in a world that is much different from the last generation...and that generation was much different from the previous generation. Another thing I would like to point out, is that it is not only parents taking kids out hunting. How many grandparents, uncles/aunts, family friends, etc., have been able to take a grandkid/nephew/friend out and expose them to hunting because of the MY program? Many of those kids would never have had the chance, until adulthood, to take an interest in hunting.
So with all due respect Chuck, it is much harder now than it has ever been.
Nice paint choice for the wall Ed!
"Because of all the other activities??? Are there some new activities that weren't around when I was a kid? Now I think your making stuff up Roger?"
I have no idea about your childhood, Chuck. But, with regards to mine, yes absolutely, my kids have far more available to them in the way of sports and other activities than I ever had......It's not even close. And more kids as a percentage of the total are involved in them too. Btw, that's not an opinion either.
Thumbs up Pabowhunter.I agree completely.My son doesn't have one friend who hunts or has any interest in hunting and we live in a very rural area with a deep hunting heritage.Years ago,I'd go to 3D shoots and there would be two pages of kids on the pee wee sign ups.The last 4 shoots we went to,my kid won first place because he was the only kid on the sheet.Taking him to 3D shoots is one of my favorite ways to spend a sunday morning.Unfortunately,we can't hardly find them anymore.Hunting is dying a slow death and without youngsters out there,it will die much faster.The earlier you get them started,the better.Last spring he killed a big gobbler.I asked him if he wanted to take a picture toschool and he said "No,nobody would care."That's flippin sad.
There are more activities in the way of sports than when I was a kid,We didn't start playing football until middle school.Today they play football at 6 and soccer and even youner ages.When I was a kid,soccer didn't even exist.
It's not just the sports,it's technology.Cell phones,ipads and the video games of today make kids far less productive and lazy.Today a kid can just strap a head phone on and play with his friends without ever leaving his room.That's scary and sad in my opinion.I'll take any reason to get my kid outside.Once a kid falls into that trap,it's hard getting them out.
Here is hunting's competition. According to the Sports and Fitness Industry Association(SFIA), in grades 3-5(think mentored youth here) 89% of boys living in suburban areas play at least one "sport" and 69% for boys living in rural areas. For girls it's 81% and 73%, respectively. Sports participation in kids has grown exponentially since Title IX in 1972-73.
Someone show me the stats in PA for the percentage of kids that hunt. I'm certain the disparity between hunting and "sports" is staggering, but what do I know.
The other thing with the youth sports today that is different from when I played is, kids do their sport year round in a lot of cases. When I was growing up playing summer baseball, it started in April and ended in July. Now days, these kids play in fall and winter leauges and go to these in-door facility's year round!
My buddies daughter plays girls fast pitch softball in these fall and winter leauges. They have tournaments all year and travel to Ohio, Maryland, Virginia, and a few other states as well as Pa. She is only 14 and has been doing this for years.
Advice..worth...exactly what yer payin' for it..from a gettin' older far*.......
Spend a lot more time with Kids, Dogs, and Wood. Not nessicarily on that order.........
You'll live longer than I will.........
Yupper, just got me a new female chocolate lab puppy.. 10 weeks old and 15 pounds..
Love it Roy, LOVE it. What a FACE! Love me some chocolate puppies!
I'm working on getting a puppy now too, for my daughter.
Got two of my three keepin' my feet warm right now... adults and the biggest one is 15 pounds... squirrel dogs :^)
Kids, dogs, and wood. Nice.
Ha, good lookin pup! Enjoy
My britt is 6 months now and still gives me that face, cept he's usually got a pair of dirty socks in his mouth:)
That's Annie.....can't wait to meet her. What a face. :) I'ma sucker for dawgs too, Jeff. Thank God I didn't see that "puppy in the window".
Far more in the way of sports? Like What? Did they come up with some new sports since I was in school? We had the same stuff when I was I kid, well maybe more. I don't think my school has a hockey team anymore?? I could be wrong.
You guys will say anything to justify your point! Switch up from how much your kids love to hunt, and that it will scar them for life if they lose a season of deer hunting. Then you say that its almost impossible to get kids out in the woods due to activities and technology. I don't understand and I'm glad I don't have the problem that apparently most of society has.
Unreal! Is this a hunting site or henhouse?
Chuck, we're not going to continue with this. Yes, they certainly did "come up with more sports". Most of us did NOT have half of the sports available that our own kids do now. Apparently, your school system was ahead of it's time. Not only are there more sports in total, but on average, kids spend more time and more of the year doing them than ever before. That's not our opinion either, it's a fact that is easily researched, which you obviously refuse to do. It's easy to use your experiences in life as microcasm for everyone else's experiences, but it's also dangerous thinking too. Look, it's great to bust chops, but you've taken it to a silly stupid level with all this.......Have the floor, I'm done.
Martone who? I quit deer hunting. Going to start hurting ducks, hence the lab.
Roger I don't have the time or inclination to do research on the activities of kids today and those of 35 years ago, and I feel sorry for the guy that does. Isn't this site based on our experiences and our opinions? Guess my opinion and thoughts are just silly stupid.
Also if what you state is true (sorry I didn't do a study) about kids playing more sports these days, GOOD. There is more to life than killing a deer. Sports are probably better for them.
Roy, that's a cute dog.
Chuck, it doesn't take a study. Kids today are non-stop with sports. Plus the sports are much more intense. Lots of traveling teams, longer seasons and more sports. Kids around here can play organized sports all year. It's not the baseball, football and basketball it was when I was younger.
Chuck,My son plays baseball.football and wrestles.He's fairly serious about all three but throws a fit when he has a game on saturday during hunting season.Wrestling at his age is more or less voluntary.You practice every night with a team and just go to tournaments when you want.We go somewhere every weekend but he won't go until after hunting season.I'm not sure that would be the case if he didn't get the hunting bug as early as he did.
Yeah I did all that too. Plus I shot archery competitively, shot trap, reloaded, shells everyweek. Etc etc etc. I doubt I was any less busy than today's kid and I still had time to hunt. Not as much as I would have liked, but a more than sufficient amount. Guess what I went to school with several other kids like me. I don't care what u do with your children but if you want them to involved in hunting then this should be their primary activity. Sports and other stuff secondary. If you want your child to be a pro athlete the this is where the focus should be. No one can have it all, but I'm learning that this kind of thinking is not shared by many hunters.
I chose to support my son in whatever he chose to do. For quite a few years - from when he was 8 to when he went to college - he was interested in archery and hunting. We did several shoots during the summer and hunted multiple seasons in the fall. He learned to make bows, tan hides, knap heads, start fires with flint and steel...from many good-hearted folks. I honestly thought he would focus on hunting the rest of his life. Then in college his focus changed to climbing, kayaking, hiking. He hunted occasionally but not with a bow for years. His free time is spent traveling the world to climb mountains. He still has interest in hunting but it's not a high priority. Someday perhaps we'll hunt together again.
Phil, sounds like you did a good job. Sounds like your son found his path in the outdoors. Climbing is a challenging sport. One i respect greatly. You should be proud. Do you think he would have traveled that path without your influence?
I hope you and him hunt together again too, Phil. I feel bad it's been so long since you had any venison to eat..:)
Who knows? When he was a teen he could write websites using code, no tools. Thought for sure he would go into computers. Not a chance. You just never know. We (that's a general we) give our kids so many opportunities that it is hard for them to choose. I'm sure everything influences them but not sure what in particular makes them take a certain path.
I am proud. Nervous because his passion puts him in dangerous places, but thrilled that he's happy.
What a bunch of wishy washy old saps.....:)
Phil I believe our life experiences mold us. My father has always been a leisurely hunter. Never put much effort into hunting, but loves to hunt. He planted the seed. I know I wouldn't be involved in the outdoors without his influence. I think his approach to teaching me was appropriate. He pushed hunting but didn't smother me with it. The end result was a driven hunter. I guess my point is things have changed but even if kids are more busy today there are also more opportunities in hunting for them to take advantage of. I think it balances out. I know some don't agree and want more but I'm pretty happy with what PA has done for youth hunters. If they change the ages to hunt big game it won't effect my methods, and I really can't see a reason to be upset. However I know I'm the minority here.
Chuck- there really is a big difference with the sports these days. They are starting the kids younger and putting them thru alot more than when we were kids. I know- I have a daughter that is an age group swimmer. We limit her to 4 days per week(3 practices and 1 meet), but some programs want the kids in the pool 5-6 days/wk. And we are talking 9/10 year olds here, not high schoolers. I hear similar stories from friends whose kids play soccer, football, lacrosse etc...... And we're not talking pro sports material here either, most of these kids will be lucky to get a college scholarship out of it. Just the way the world is these days- very competitive/demanding.
You wait Dale. You're time's a coming.
Cute pup, RC. Congrats to you and give my condolences to Chris - the quicker picker-upper. :^)
Chuck, when I grew up in the late 60's and early 70's, we had no sports on weekends.
Our baseball was on week nights, that's it.
The other day, I was talking to a father who has boys that hunt. The one boy is in some sort of baseball thing and has 100 games scheduled this year!
Let me see, major leagues play 162 or so?
I live across the street from a linear park. Sat and Sunday, it's non stop soccer games........
Well,I still can't figure out why any hunter would support anything that would keep a father from hunting with his kid,regardless of the age.My kid doesn't need to hunt but then again,neither do I.It sure is a cool way to spend a saturday though.
Doug, I don't think anyone is saying to keep kids from hunting. Rather to support them and guide them to find what they really want to do including hunting.
I think the point is to try to remove as many obstacles as we can that would keep kids from hunting! In other words, do EVERYTHING we can to help get kids into the woods HUNTING!
"The other day, I was talking to a father who has boys that hunt. The one boy is in some sort of baseball thing and has 100 games scheduled this year!"- Brad
This is what I was saying in my last post above. The baseball and girls softball is huge anymore!! These kids that are serious about it do it year round now days
My cousin and I are actually looking into starting up a indoor facility for baseball/softball. We both have the baseball background to do it and he also has the business background. Just doing some research right now but this stuff is defiantly big now days!
Phil,you should read some of the comments on different boards.By the way,I truly hope you get to hunt with your son more.When my son is old enough to move,I'm afraid that I may just wither away and die.
Doug, Thanks. If your son moves you won't wither away, you may just not enjoy the hunting as much. And you'll have lots of good memories. Plus you'll have to get yourself in shape to start the grandkids out hunting.
Well,I sure as heck wouldn't have anything to talk to my wife about lol.
I used to live for hunting and I liked shooting deer.Today I could care less if I ever kill another deer.It's way more fun watching it all unfold when a kid is doing the hunting.I don't know if it will ever come back.
In today's world there are many parents who simply pawn their kids off by getting them into multiple activities.
I think that others feel they are not being good parents if they don't have their kids into everything that Johnny next door is doing.
My kids did the things that most other kids did, but they were steered more to the outdoors and as they grew into their teens that is what they gravitated to.
It is the parents who tend to be the problem by not parenting.
As far as the "MY" gig. Can any or you truly say that a five year old truly understands the significance of ending an animal's life? Or is that not part of your equation?
"Can any or you truly say that a five year old truly understands the significance of ending an animal's life?"
Can you truly say that they don't? My "equation" for my kid was to start him when he was interested and ready. Kids develop at different rates. Having an arbitrary minimum age takes those differences and tosses them out the window. At the end of the day these goofy hypotheticals are a waste of time and thought. We now have years and tens of thousands of anecdotes, seemingly all positive, and yet the naysayers would rather just dream things up and talk about that.
"Can any or you truly say that a five year old truly understands the significance of ending an animal's life?"
I have a different take on that. A five year old probably does not understand the significance of ending an animal's life. Doesn't matter if they are a hunter or live on a farm all five year olds had to learn that. If the process is handled well the five year old will not only understand but appreciate the process.
How about we start letting 12 year olds go drinking with their dad? Ole dad could mentor them as to how to drink....
Any farm kid at 5 years old understands it. We let them kill fish, and thats ok. But then, fish are cold and slimey. It's ok to kill fish.
22 degrees outside this evening in Eastern Pa with a blowing snow. After all these years, there's nothing like a fresh gut pile to warm your hands. You guys are worried about getting kids out there hunting; I know of a bunch of grumpy old men that could use some time in the woods and away from the keyboard.
What we could use around here is a little more bowhunting and a lot less bowshitn :)
"My "equation" for my kid was to start him when he was interested and ready."
Roger....my kids accompanied me a multitude of times before the then required age of twelve.
In your "non-hypothetical world", does a kid have to be able to to kill something in order to gain an understanding and love of the outdoors?
Gehman is right on (unless you think he is being hypothetical) when he talks of farm kids. But if you think that most 5 year olds get it, you would be a fool. Heck....half their parents don't get it.
Note!!! I agreed with Brad on something:^)
Bowjo, don't the wheels on your bow need waxed or oiled or something?:) XO
"In your "non-hypothetical world", does a kid have to be able to to kill something in order to gain an understanding and love of the outdoors?"
No, but it works the same for adults, Bob. One of the interesting themes throughout the anti-mentored youth faction is that for some reason when we take a kid hunting under the age of 12, we are teaching them the kill is the most important factor in hunting. But, if they start at 12 then they're being taught that factors other than killing are what's most important. It makes no sense.
"But if you think that most 5 year olds get it, you would be a fool. Heck....half their parents don't get it".
Bob, I have a friend who works as a grievance counselor for very young children, just like the 5 year olds you reference. The biggest mistake he says that adults make with kids after the loss of a loved one is that they assume the child doesn't have a grasp of death. Basically, they become neglected through the process because of what adults don't understand. I'm not a child psychologist, but know enough to listen to those who are. Not really certain if that makes me a "fool" or not though.
One thing is for certain here. If you don't know a kid and their parents, then you aren't going to have more insight to the kid's cognitive skills than the parents will. That's why I support the parents current right to choose the age the kid starts, in favor of course over someone else's arbitrary age minimum.
Roger.... I can respect your opinions as far as and your kids. Not all are as level headed as you.
Being a kind of "err on the side of caution" guy, I tend to believe that more as opposed to less are being brought into the sport for the wrong reasons.
As in most other actions we pursue in daily life, parameters must be set for the betterment of the larger group. Again, I'll err on the side of caution.
And...yes I do indeed feel a degree of remorse every time I hook a fish badly enough to have to put it in my creel. But they still cook up nice:^)
How bout that Martone thingy eh?:)
There are age restrictions on everything. Driving, Voting, Drinking, even getting an AARP card, Huh Roy?
I'm not anti MY, because I agree with 9 year old restriction.
YOU CANT HAVE IT ALL! Sacrifices will/should be made! Sorry I upset you Stick and string! I will try to be more credible for you because I really care:)
Phil call me next time you're over this way, and stop and see the bear.
Hey Bushy, shoot three fingers under.
S &S don't be so quick to judge. I'm NOT disappointed with anyone's opinion here. I respect it. I don't agree with it but respect it. I take it your a young guy. I'll bet your opinions on hunting will go through several changes before you reach my age.
I won't retype them here, but use the link to find the actual MY permit sales, by age, and also the reported buck kill by age group.
Here are MY permit sales figures and reported buck harvest.
Age
1-5 976 12 reported kills
5-6 1470 44
7-8 7278 74
9-10 14821 578
11 8548 506
Total 33093 1214
Even you Roy, they make those heated sleeping bag suits so even your scrawny, antique, eighty- five year old body would be toasty warm :)
Ah Joe, and to think I used to like you:)
Bowjo- some of these old guys would rather stay warm and go fishin' on the internet, than freeze their butts off outside tryin' to get a deer! ;-)
From: Bob Hildenbrand ........ ....... Date: 21-Jan-15
In today's world there are many parents who simply pawn their kids off by getting them into multiple activities. I think that others feel they are not being good parents if they don't have their kids into everything that Johnny next door is doing.
My kids did the things that most other kids did, but they were steered more to the outdoors and as they grew into their teens that is what they gravitated to.
It is the parents who tend to be the problem by not parenting.
Bob- I hear what you are saying, but think this is more the exception than the rule. Most of the parents I see are involved in their kids activities(even if just sitting on the "sidelines" and observing practice) as opposed to dropping the kids at practice and then going to do something for themselves.
And I think most of us let the kids be the driving force. In fact, with our daughter we actually have to put the reigns on from time to time and set limits. Otherwise she would be swimming, and competing in gymnastics, playing soccer, lacrosse, softball, drama club, youth group, etc....etc........ There has to be a healthy mix and still have some "down time"......................and above all else- let the child be the one to initiate!
Well, there you have it. At a success rate of about 1% in the 1-5 yr age bracket, absolutely yes, I was wrong, indeed it's "all about killing". Those kindergarten kids are whacking, packing and stacking them there deer.
LOL Roger.
This is the data the Commissioners don't want you to see.
TWELVE REPORTED KILLS FOR 5 AND UNDER...... Yet, one commissioner says he's tired of seeing all the 4 and 5 year olds in the papers with bucks.
Yep, Brad, some of the commissioners are no better than some here. If they don't know, care, or understand the facts, then they will just fabricate bogus stories and express "concerns" based on them.
Last year they said it was "unsafe" to have an early squirrel season.
Imagine that, we participate in one of THE safest outdoor sports, and the people that direct our PGC say that hunting is unsafe.
They evidently talked about it this week on WNEP. Last night's TALKBACK was all about how we shouldn't be taking 7 and 8 year olds out to hunt animals.
I guess it's OK for them to pick up guns and shoot each other, just don't take them HUNTING! :(
I just read a comment that a WCO is tired of seeing 3 year olds out there hunting.
I took my daughter groundhog hunting at 18 months. Guess I wasn't supposed to do that?? LOL
..."who has time for reasearch and/or real statistics?? Lets just argue based on what we want to believe..."
Hmm, I wonder how religion fares within the same conundrum?
