Allegheny Forrest Deer ?
Pennsylvania
Many years ago I hunted the " Allegheny Forest" and really enjoyed the hours spent in it. I have fond memories of the wonderful hunts I shared with great friends.
After the devastation of the deer herd in the forest I only returned to hunt twice. The last two time's I hunted there were late 90's and perhaps 2005? As I recall this was about the time the Head of the DNR was fired or "retired" from his post.
It was really shocking to see what the State DNR, had allowed to happen to the herd. At that time from what the "regs" said they (DNR) were going to issue another 9500 doe permits for the upcoming gun season in the small county I hunted in. It was unbelievable to me the DNR would permit this to happen.
After seeing only 8 deer including those I saw from a car after dark for a week it was my last time hunting PA.
I follow and enjoy reading through the many posts on this site that the PA. herd is beginning recover.
Hopefully this is true for the "Forest" in up-state PA.?
.
The herd was reduced, which is what they claimed the ecosystem needed in many areas. There are deer there, but you have to hunt a little to find them... that's good, right? I like to hunt.
I have a camp in Potter county with the Susquehannock S.F. all around and I see a few deer virtually every time I'm there. If it matters, the bucks have been allowed to age more due to the change in antler restrictions and I've seen some fully mature bucks... as big and healthy as anything I've seen down here.
I think many folks quit going up there because of the herd reductions, and I'm thankful for it. I haven't seen another hunter in the woods up there YET. It feels like I have the whole forest to myself :^) That's more why I got the camp anyhow... solitude... big woods. I'd still go up there and hunt small game if there wasnt a single deer in the county.
I drove through the ANF last summer between Ridgway and Sheffield.The one thing that struck me was how much a mid level understory had developed in that area.Herd reductions were sorely needed in that part of the state and the habitat is showing signs of recovery in quite a few places.
I used to hunt near Marienville in the late 70s. Too many hunters for me. Nice after opening day tho. I have read about some great bucks taken around there and up in Warren in recent years.
6 of us hunted the first day of rifle this past year in the ANF, about 6 miles east of Tidioute, Pa. Snow on the ground, not a single deer was seen, maybe 10 shots heard all day. It's really bad deer hunting in those mountains now. With the current yote population, I don't ever see the herd coming back. So there will be good habitat, because there won't be any deer to eat it.
Now all we need is a good recipe for cooking up yotes :)
I started hunting in the ANF in 1985 on German Hill, Forest County. Really, it was more like deer viewing than hunting. I'd see dozens of them on opening morning and every single one was the tiniest doe you've ever laid eyes on. In our camp we'd encounter about 1 buck for every hundred does. When someone finally shot a buck it was likely a spike and weighed 90# gutted. And I've got news for some people, the herd numbers began to decline steadily BEFORE bonus doe tags, not after. Those deer literally ate themselves out of house and home.
After the inception of liberalized doe tags and then eventually APR's, things began to steadily improve, IMHO. The browse line came back to the woods, and while there were certainly less deer, you could count on seeing more and more bucks......and bigger ones at that too. The average size of an adult doe sky rocketed also. They weren't "mountain deer" anymore, but just deer.
Those of us who continued to "go to camp" after 2000 enjoyed some of the best hunting we'd ever seen anywhere. Killing deer wasn't an issue as long as you knew how to actually hunt for them and weren't convinced a person absolutely had to hunt behind the camp, as they'd done in previous decades. We hunted where we knew the deer were.....killed a bunch of 'em too.
If you judge the quality of your hunt by the quantity of deer you see then the ANF is likely not a hotspot for you. That said, I'll take it any day of the week I can get it.......Love the mountains.
My buddy shot a huge 10 point this year in the ANF near Chapman Dam it scored in the 150's or for some that means he was real real real big.
Some of the biggest bucks brought into my buddies taxidermy shop each year are killed in the ANF.
Mike
Wow Roger, your story reminds me of the 80s in Clearfield County. We put on a drive across a laurel flat to the hillside one time and my brother had 77 doe come off the hill past him in single file!! Not a horn anywhere in the bunch!!
Think I shot 6 buck up there back in the day, 5 spikes and a 3 point...lol If someone killed a buck with 7 or 8 points, it was a big deal even though the racks were usually very small.
All of us that belonged to the camp use to take all our racks up there and hang them in the camp. I think we had around a 130 racks hanging in there before we sold it in the late 90s. The biggest buck hanging in there might have went 75 inches at best!
Ben
I've seen some nice bucks in that area during the archery bear season the last few years.
Ben, I think you and I are starting to show our age then. ;)
You'll appreciate this. At work today while on my lunch break, someone left a recent copy of the Ohio Valley Outdoors magazine, which is more like a newspaper if you've seen it. Being the nerd I am......read the whole damned thing. LOL. Anyway, at whatever Ohio's version is of their GC/public meeting regarding the condition of the deer herd in Ohio, there was an article about it in this publication. Same exact crap from their peanut gallery that we hear here. Hunters griped about "no deer here" anymore, and yada, yada, yada.
At the moment in most parts of the country,hunters are criticizing respective game agencies for what they feel is a lack of deer. So, it's not a PA issue, or an ANF issue, or a PGC issue. Mostly it's a perception and lack of education as you already know. I'm not getting in to it here though, just know from too much in the way of experience how that would go. :)
Well Roger Dodger, take Jr up there to kill a deer next year in bow season, AND JUST maybe in 10 years, he might get another deer. But hey, at least he would be hunting...
Can't Roy, no more camp and no free weekends for us to go if he wanted to. A coworker did take his grandson to camp for the archery opener this past season. The boy killed a nice buck opening morning and the buddy got one two weekends afterwards. Those guys camp about 3 miles down the road from where we used to.
I'm glad to hear the ANF herd is improving.
This post is intended as an inquiring of the dramatic reduction of a deer herd in the forest along with its current effects.
However, to have seen the effects of such an aggressive management approach was shocking to me after my previous experience of hunting there.
From the responses it does appear the antler restrictions are of great benefit in seeing larger bucks. Hopefully the increase in buck and doe numbers isn't a result of less hunter vs harvest?
When discussion is about the understory/vegetation returning. Is this also true of the deeper forest or just a lot of new growth along the roadsides?
Just for the record, in 44 plus years of bow hunting. I have never been called or considered a roadside hunter. Never a behind the camp hunter. "LOL" Neither have I been one to overly complain about not seeing lots of deer.
This being said, "I do realize it is hunting".
My recollections of the forest nowadays brings an immense appreciation of its beauty, fond memories of wonderful hunts and great times with friends who have passed on.
Don, I can see that it would be shocking to someone who's been away so long. It is certainly nothing like what it was in the 70's, but I guess what most thought was fun in deer viewing did put a hurting on the forest too.......something always has to give.
In so far as hunter numbers go, our deer population peeked right around 1996-1998, but by that time we had already lost 250,000 hunters. Just wanted to throw that out there because there are always some who claim the decline in hunters followed the deer........and obviously that isn't true.
Yes, APR's have lead more older bucks in our herd. Back when you were hunting here about 90% of the buck harvest was 1.5yr old deer. Today, around 50% or even more of the bucks harvested are 2.5yrs and older. I believe PA now ranks 8th in the nation for P&Y harvested bucks per sq. mile among those states with whitetail. The buck to doe ratio these days is as close to 1:1 as it's ever going to get, so while the herd is smaller, bucks represent a larger percentage of it.
The understory has come back virtually everywhere except where the forest is boreal/closed canopy. That segways in to what I feel is the ANF's biggest challenge - getting rid of ancient standing lumber. The forest could support more deer *IF* larger tracts of land were clear cut, but that likely won't happen. How we found the most deer in our part of the ANF was to visit the Tionesta Welcome Center and got maps of the latest timber cuts along the edge of the forest......That's how we found the grouse again, too - HINT!! :)
Hey, btw, I hear things are changing in Michigan's game programs too; how's that going?
The ANF was once loaded with deer because it was heavily cut.The US forest service got held up in court with tree hugger groups and most of the logging was halted for years.That more than anything impacted the habitat and deer densities.
At the last PGC meeting, a rep from the US Forest Service gave some data on the ANF.
Each year they count cars are specific places during deer season.
The vehicle counts are down about 75% compared to 1996.
That means hunter numbers on the ANF have declined drasticly.
Thanks for the input here.
I see there are mixed views regarding the herd's recovery in the "forest. The increase in deer age is great news. A near 1-1 ratio buck to doe is fantastic regardless of numbers.
I agree the deer and small game's best friend is clear cuts and regrowth. I can appreciate the need to slash or clear cut for the wild life.
Hopefully the Forest Service, will not be intimidated by a few protesting individual's and tackle this issue. IMHO if they keep the clear cut's out of sight from the roadways and general view of the public they would not catch much grief.
I also understand Brads, concern. If the hunter vehicle count is down 75%. There are certainly less hunter's in the field and fewer young hunters being introduced to our sport. This isn't good news for the future of our sport.
The hunting in Michigan is good. Per the posts, pro's and con's regarding the DNR efforts as with most opinions in other states.
Roger, oh my man! For the taste of grouse, fresh out of the frying pan :^)
yes, deer and hunters have declined in the 2f and surrounding areas. My friends in the deer processing arena tell me the same. I do believe the rampant doe extermination of 2002-2005 did as much to eradicate hunters as it did to eradicate deer in these areas. people sold camps, went to other states, hunt in the southern part of the state or in quite a few cases, just don't go anymore cause their kids don't want to go. On the other hand, that situation being what it is, there is still some good hunting in the 2f and surrounding region. I have never seen the caliber of bucks that I am seeing now and the doe population has seemed to improve to a very nice huntable herd. But one thing is for sure.....when the big timber hits the ground, quality browse explodes and the deer numbers follow. I absolutely advocate responsible timbering and will take a big patch of browse, thorns and brush for hunting anytime over anything else. The ANF must responsibly timber. Deer must be responsibly controlled in proportion, not eradicated.....and hunters will go where they see a reasonable chance of success.
"The vehicle counts are down about 75% compared to 1996."
I definitely believe that too, Brad. Any of us who've been around long enough and hunted the ANF, anywhere, remember "the orange army". Having an abundance of hunters absolutely everywhere will move deer......everywhere. Remember the shooting right at first light? LOL. What a barrage! They were good times for certain.
No matter how many deer are out there, if we only have a quarter of the guys around in those places then they aren't going to move many of them. A buddy with a camp up there told me he had like 20 different bucks on trail cam photos this past summer/early fall. When gun season came around he only saw two. My guess was with the poor mast crop they dispersed and with few hunters moving them around then not much chance of seeing many deer.......But, maybe I'm wrong about that too.
I still say if they were permitted to cut down more of that giant forest then in just several years time you'd see more deer than in a very long time.......pretty sure the grouse would come back too. Food for thought.
That means hunter numbers on the ANF have declined drastically.
And so have deer numbers...
No matter how many deer are out there, if we only have a quarter of the guys around in those places then they aren't going to move many of them. A buddy with a camp up there told me he had like 20 different bucks on trail cam photos this past summer/early fall. When gun season came around he only saw two. My guess was with the poor mast crop they dispersed and with few hunters moving them around then not much chance of seeing many deer.......But, maybe I'm wrong about that too.
That's it in a nutshell.There's more deer out there than people realize.The amount of deer someone sees during deer season is not a good indicator of how many are there.
A moderate percentage of the loss of hunters is ABSOLUTELY due to the herd's reduction, Rog. Are you kidding me? ANF? Heck I know guys that only ever hunted down HERE and quit buying Pa licenses altogether and left to hunt other states because of the herd reduction.
As was stated, camps up north were sold or just sat abandoned when nobody wanted them.... nobody wanted them because they were deer camps, and the deer just weren't there... that's how I got mine... 'my camp' turned into a 'trout camp'.... now it's more :^)
Dougell, you can sugar coat it however you want, but the deer hunting up north SUCKS NOW.........
"A moderate percentage of the loss of hunters is ABSOLUTELY due to the herd's reduction, Rog. Are you kidding me? ANF? Heck I know guys that only ever hunted down HERE and quit buying Pa licenses altogether and left to hunt other states because of the herd reduction."
Jeff, I can't disagree with that, and no, I'm trying to kid anyone, or myself for that matter. But, why didn't you and I quit buying licenses in PA? Why didn't it deter you from buying a camp? When a lot of those guys pulled up stakes and said "no deer here!", why didn't we buy in to that? How did me and my buds continue killing deer up there when there supposedly weren't any more?.....I know, lotsa questions. ;)
Let's tell the whole story though. In 1982 when the steel industry collapsed in Western PA and *EVERY MAN* on my block lost his high paying job, most of those camps I knew of went belly up for financial reasons too. Folks lost all their vacation and expendable income through the 80's and even well in to the 90's too, and there were still PLENTY of deer up there yet and they said so.
We can blame the PGC for all the state's many problems to include deer, I suppose, but I still don't think it begins to tell "the whole story". One other thing, how is it possible to keep a deer herd artificially low through bonus alotments, by killing off all the deer each and every year if they aren't there to begin with? I just think there's more to it than some are willing to admit.....but whatever.
roger, true story. Had a guy tell me he hunted the Hoffman place in rifle season and there was almost zero deer sign on Buffalo Mountain. That is where you and I hunted in bow season. By the way, my neighbor killed a 160 class buck not a mile from there on the Wills Mountain side.
"Just wanted to throw that out there because there are always some who claim the decline in hunters followed the deer........and obviously that isn't true."
Hmmm.
Well, I claim it's true.. the decline in hunters followed the decline in deer numbers... to some extent at least. Seems obvious... since they told me so.
Anyhow... I bought my camp for reasons beyond deer, way, waaay beyond deer. Guess how many deer I've killed up there since I got it several years ago.... nadda.
I can't speak for you, but I didn't quit buying a license in Pa because of the coincidental timing of my camp purchase and because deer are a small part of my hunting.
I'm not going to argue with the martyr metality.... pgc to blame for all the state's problems? Really? ~sigh~
Yes, there IS more there than some are willing to admit.
I would not hunt deer on the part of the ANF I know! Although I know those that do. I believe it is like any other place in Potter , Mckean, Forest, etc. You have to do your homework, hunt harder, and stay out longer. There are deer to be killed. The bucks are getting bigger and smarter, and the woods will be yours in bow/inline/crossbow season. Even though I think RC was joking in his posts I believe predation plays a large part in controlling the deer numbers where I hunt, and more than likely on the ANF.
The yote population is increasing and the deer population is decreasing. The yotes love eating young fawns. Black bear love eating young fawns too. The problem of too few deer is only going to get worse.
RC,I guess it's all just a matter of perspective.I live up north so I have a pretty good idea what the area holds.There is less deer but there's more than most hunters realize.I only hunt dmap area's that most people say have no deer.I have no problems finding them.
Jeff,of course less deer decreased the number of hunters in the northern tier.So did,higher gas prices and more deer in less traditional areas.Any way you want to cut it,the northern tier needed drastic herd reductions.If a hunter understands what deer need at different times of the year,the hunting is better up here now than it's ever been.The habitat is recovering,the deer are getting bigger and you can virtually have an entire area to yourself on public land.You no longer can expect to sit on top of a wide open draw 100 yards from a road and have 2 dozen deer bee bop past you all day.However,if a person plans,puts a little effort into and hunts where deer should be instead of where a person wants them to be,the hunting is better than ever.There's nothing to sugar coat.We needed less deer and that's what we got.As a result,the plan is working exactly as intended.The habitat is recovering,the deer are healthier and if you accept hunting as the challenge it should be,it's more rewarding now than at any other time.For the past three years,I've been hunting with my son starting at 7 years old.We scout year round,shoot several times a week and we hunt from dusk til dark every time we go.We work a plan every day and every year he's killed three deer in areas where there's supposedly no deer.Seeing a young kid's enthusiasm when a plan comes together and he ties a tag on a deer up here is priceless.It very rarely comes easy and that's the way it should be.
Jeff, we lost a quarter million hunters before the end of the 90's when the deer herd was on the rise. There's what now, 900,000+ hunters? Since the decline in the herd starting in the 2000's it's just been a trickle. So, I'm sure there are some, but I don't see how the numbers are lying.
George, I guess your buddy knew where the coyotes were driving deer that day. ;)
I guess us hunters don't like any competition for fawns because we kill far more of them than bears and coyotes could ever dream of.
Personally Roger, I do not like to see fawns killed. But I bend my rule for some folks.
"I guess us hunters don't like any competition for fawns because we kill far more of them than bears and coyotes could ever dream of"
Roger could you please show me some proof of this statement. I am having a hard grasping it! Every year I witness a doe or two being stalked by a bear or yotes. Every pile of yote scat I find has DEER hair in it. I'm just wondering where and how you came up with that theory.
Lets keep in mind what a predator does for living! How many fawns/deer do you guys think it takes one coyote to survive for a year?? I know for a fact that one wolf can consume 11 to 16 elk a year. The PGC knows how many deer a mature coyote can consume in one year. Problem is none of us know how many yotes are in this state.
RC I agree! If deer hunting was closed for one year I doubt we would see any drastic increases in the deer herd up north. Of course I believed that for many years, but it's just my belief as Roger believes hunters kill more fawns than predators.
Close to 50% of the antlerless kill is made up of fawns every year.If coyotes were killing a higher percentage of fawns,there would be less fawns for hunters to harvest and it would show up as a lower percentage.
That's how. Time to start reading fellas.
"Close to 50% of the antlerless kill is made up of fawns every year."
With check stations, that percentage would be a gross estimate.
Without check stations, that percentage is nothing more than a WAG.
I would really like to see where the PGC is getting that percentage. (which I'm sure they've equated to a total of 47,693 fawns. :^))
They check between 25k-30k deer at processors each year.The percent of fawns in the harvest hasn't gone done so the percent of fawns hasn't gone down.
file:///C:/Users/Doug/Downloads/2013-14%20Harvest%20Estimates%20Report%20(6).pdf
http://www.portal.state.pa.us/portal/server.pt/document/1404192/2013-14_harvest_estimates_report_pdf
file:///C:/Users/Doug/Downloads/2013-14%20Harvest%20Estimates%20Report%20(7).pdf
Well,I'm obviously not doing something right Dave.Go to the PGC website and click on the deer picture on the first page.From there go to the 2013-2014 report.There are several charts showing how mnay deer they checked and aged in each WMU.They checks over 15000 antlerless deer in 2013.
Deer population trends and fawn-to-doe ratios are stable in Pennsylvania The effect of predators on deer populations typically is observed in fawn-to-doe ratios or overall population declines. In studies in Alabama and Georgia, declining or low fawn-to-doe ratios were observed. In the South Carolina study, the deer population was declining. Declines in fawn-to-doe ratios and overall population raised questions about the influence of predators on the deer population. In each case, predators were shown to be an important factor affecting the composition and size of the deer population. Deer populations in Pennsylvania do not show predation-caused effects. In recent years, deer management objectives to stabilize deer populations have been successful. Deer populations in all WMUs have stable population trends. Since 2002, percent of fawns in WMU harvests has not changed and averages about 41 percent which is similar to statewide levels in the early 1980s (i.e., 1981-1983: 42-43 percent). If fawns were being removed by predators at an unsustainable rate, they would not show up in the harvest or ‘pre-hunt’ populations. Unlike the southeastern studies, no declines in population trends or harvest fawn-to-doe ratios are currently observed in Pennsylvania. CONCLUSIONS & RECOMMENDATIONS Current levels of antlerless license allocations are producing stable ‘pre-hunt’ deer population trends. Also, fawn-to-doe ratios in the harvest are stable. Therefore, we find no evidence that antlerless license allocations must be reduced to offset predation. Predation is not ignored in deer management recommendations. The ‘pre-hunt’ population includes fawns that have survived their most vulnerable period. For a WMU-level deer management program, accounting for these survivors in the ‘pre-hunt’ population trends is the most effective and efficient method. If predation losses increase, the ‘pre-hunt’ population would decrease. This decrease would then be observed in the ‘pre-hunt’ population trend. If the population trend objective was to maintain a stable population and we observed a decline, we would recommend a reduction in the antlerless allocation to return the deer population to objective. Attempts to directly account for predator losses in the antlerless allocation would result in duplicate removals. Because fawns killed by predators in the summer are not a part of the ‘pre-hunt’ population (i.e., they have already been removed from the population), attempting to subtract these same animals from the ‘pre-hunt’ population or antlerless allocation is not necessary and inappropriate.
I know.We ought to just hand it over to the legislators.They'll fix all the problems and then give themselves a big raise for doing such a good job.
"I would really like to see where the PGC is getting that percentage. (which I'm sure they've equated to a total of 47,693 fawns. :^))"
I'm surprised you didn't know about this information. The PGC only goes in to very great detail about how they arrive at that mathematical conclusion......But, I'm sure they just made it all up, right guys? :)
Out of 1500 radio collared deer 6mo. and older the mortality rate is less than 1% due to predation. Hardly sounds like the coyote are having a field day to me. And if half of the doe harvest is comprised of fawns, which it basically always is, then how are the coyotes and bears killing off all these fawns you guys claim they are? Fawns can't show up every fall if they're killed in the spring, fellas. They also can't go on to become breeding adults the next year if they're dead either.
Like Roy, I don't put much faith in politicians, but when teams of real scientists come to undeniable conclusions by using sound data then my ears open up real quick.
Question......for those who decry the PGC and their decisions, have you actually read the few hundred pages of material that make up the Deer Management Program, or is it easier not to and just have your best guess at it?
Let's see all your data there Mr. Perfect...
I generally just drive around and ask the guys who are sitting within sight of the road,how many deer they're seeing.I don't need any snot nosed,college graduates who never step foot in the woods telling me anything.Besides,you know the insurance companies are just paying those guys off.
About time you see the light... Now if you would just toss those rage broadheads away....
I don't know how many fawns coyotes get, but I do know there is a bunch of coyotes where I hunt in Ohio. Two years ago, we saw 13 coyotes from our stands in a week between 3 of us. Went out last winter to scout and the property was polluted with coyote tracks. This past summer I got piles of does and fawns on camera along with a bunch of coyote pics again.
Certainly no shortage of deer where I hunt in Ohio.
I don't use rage broadheads.I just throw an ax through them.It expands my kill zone.
Ben, several year back NY, OH and PA's agencies conducted a tri-state collective study on coyotes. Mostly what they were looking to find was genetic information leading to the origins of the eastern subspecies this region shares. Anyway, in over 700 individual coyote scat samples, again between three states, only a couple contained any deer DNA in them. And those could have been road kills, dead deer from natural and other unnatural causes, or whatever. At any rate, those findings sure don't support claims that coyotes are killing an inordinate number of 'our deer', either.
I remember the study they did on fawns and they found that bears kill a lot more fawns then coyotes do.
I suspect coyotes kill a thousand times more rodents and other little critters than deer. I've watched them hunt and kill mice, groundhogs, bugs, and have near misses on turkeys and squirrels, but have yet to see one pursue a deer. In fact, I once watched (and videod) a coyote in Ohio hunting mice in a pasture field just yards from me while a doe and fawn fed about 75-80 yards away in plain sight... the doe would stop and snort at the coyote on occasion, but the coyote couldn't have cared less and just kept mousing. When it left the area, a herd of cattle, including calves, was grazing by and the coyote walked right between and amongst them, and out of the pasture, and not one so much as lifted its head to give him a good look. They're opportunistic hunters and scavengers and sure they kill an occasional deer, as they should, especially wounded or weak or when fawns are first born, but their diet is really quite varied.
I think coyotes and foxes are ingriguing and very entertaining to be around.
I think it's almost even now between bear and coyote, Ben. Sat in on a seminar last year at Laurel Sportsman's Night Out with Cal Dubrock, accompanied by a wildlife biologist, as the guest speaker(s). Bobcats are also predators obviously, but there aren't many of them to speak of. The insurance companies didn't send a rep though'......LOL. :) You'd think they would with all our vehicles killing deer too. ;)
Roy, what did ya buy a license for if you bought a farm? Landowners don't need a license if you hunt your own ground:)
Now ya tell me...........
Ben, unfortunately if you live in PA you still need a non resident license even if you own a farm in Ohio, unless you are changing your residency status..... they changed that law a year before I bought my farm! I'm always a day late and a dollar short.
Bottom line is that deer are the most important food source for coyote. I have noticed that most of the yote scat I find in the woods has deer hair in it, especially after the fawns drop and after or during late rifle season. I have also noted that most if not all bear scat I find in the late spring also has deer hair in it. Since no one knows exactly how many coyotes we have living Per square mile in the Northern tier I find it hard to believe any report that states the coyote population doesnt impact the deer herd.
It will only take a novice hunter a few minutes in the woods I hunt to realize that the only animal that comes to a "bleet" are yotes, and believe me they ain't there to see What all the noise is about.
Now I'm not saying that the deer population in PA isn't stable. Nor am I complaining about the number of deer where I hunt. I believe that if we didn't have the amount of predation that we have that our deer numbers would increase! Possible increase drastically!
So my hats off to the great folks at the PGC for finding a way to stabilize deer numbers:)
Chuck,I have no data on coyote numbers in the northern tier.All I know is what I see when I'm out there and what I hear from some buddies who are serious trappers and are in the woods a lot.We have coyotes but I'm convinced that there's less today in this part of the state than 10-15 years ago.I used to see coyote tracks in the snow in just about every place I went.There's about 1500 acres behind my house and I used to see as many coyote tracks as deer tracks.This past year,I saw a coyote on the first day of bear and some sign in one relatively small area.We had snow the last two weekends of deer season and I covered several miles every day,putting small drives on all over the place and I never cut a single coyote track.None of the trappers that I know are catching any either.Most aren't even finding sign.My BIL traps them pretty hard.Ten tears ago he was catching 6-8 every year.He hasn't caught one in three years.Coyotes get hit pretty hard by disease,especially mange and it doesn't take long for the population to plummet.I just talked to a buddy of mine that spent a week and a half at his camp in Sinnemahoning.He brought up to me the lack of coyote sign that they saw up there.We have some coyotes but there hasn't been a population explosion in recent years around here.
Never one time have I found deer hair in a pile of bear crap,not saying they don't get some fawns.A good amount of the coyote crap I see has deer hair in it.It doesn't mean they killed the deer though.Less than 1% of the collared doe succumb to predation and they have over 1500 collared.They most certainly get some fawns though.I was mowing my yard this past spring and came upon a mangled fawn.There wasn't much left of it so it's impossible to say how it died or what ate it.
Regardless of the deer population, it is nice to see the forest regenerating as it should. Have you noticed any particular plants, trees, etc which are making a better than average recovery?
My son has been obsessed with killing a coyote for about the past year.I wouldn't say we hunt them hard but we'll do a couple sets right before dark several times a month.In the spring and summer we,mainly use a fawn in distress.Last summer we never called a coyote in but we had deer charge in almost 100% of the time,which is cool for a kid to see.One night last June,we walked back to a place called Finnley Hollow.We set up on a big rock just before dark and within a minute,a big bear came crashing in.It came within 20 yards and just stared at up with a dumbfounded look.I had no flashight,it was getting pretty dark so we just stood up and backed out.I expected the bear to bolt but it just stood there and never moved.No coyotes but a cool experience none the less.
It depends on the area and over story RC.Oak regeneration is doing very well in certain places but there's a pile of factors that go into that.Red maple,sassafras, yellow polplar,tulip popular are coming up in other places.The big thing I'm starting to see is black berry and green briar.You never used to see that.We still have a problems with non preferred species like beech,black birch and striped maple but that's another problem altogther.DCNR hasn't fenced a timber sale in this district in about 6 years and they took every one of their units out of dmap because their browse impact surveys are showing possitive results.It's a complicated problem but there has been progress in many areas.
Ten years ago the deer would hammer the beech and striped maple because there was nothing else to eat.When they browse on that stuff and nothing preferred is growing,you have too many deer,regardless of how many are there.That's what we were faced with and that's why I never felt any guilt filling 8-9 tags each year.It is starting to recover but now isn't the time to let the herd grow by a large amount.We have less tags,way less hunters and less time to kill them.The deer herd is starting to grow even though t's not evident by how mnay you see while hunting.The deer have more food,better cover so they don't have to move much and nobody is pushing them around.It's still easy to think there's no deer but they're out there.You just have to hunt them different.Archery isn't so bad if you find a food source because the deer will be on their feet during daylight.However,we get hammered in bear season by huge groups driving everything.The deer go nocturnal in a hurry right before rifle season.My son and I still hunt during rifle season the vast majority of the time.I honestly can't remember the last time I was just sitting there and someone bumped some deer to me.There's two of us and it's twice the noise when you have a kid.It also takes a little time to get the gun to a kid.We miss opportunities and move deer that we never see.However,deer have evolved.They're more likely to lay still and let you walk past them with less pressure.We may see an average of 2-10 deer per day.Ten is the most we've ever seen.In the last three years,we've killed 18 deer on dmap'd lands just hunting the first day and both saturdays.I have no special skill and I have a punk kid with me every time I go.If we can do it with that type of consistancy,the hunting can't be too bad.Mike Foust came up and hunted with us the first day and the last day.He had a broken leg so he couldn't walk around and get in on my small one man drives.In two days hunting from dark til dark,he saw one deer.My son and I hit three different dmap areas those two days and killed 4 deer between the two of us.I only know of one other deer in any of those areas getting killed.
Cool, sounds like a side arm might be a good idea:)
When that bear came in,he had the rifle and whispered if a .223 would kill a bear.I whispered back,yeah,if you shoot it between the eyes.He paused,handed me the rifle and stood up to get out of there lol.
I'll also add this.The best recovery that I've seen has been on state land where they know how to manage the timber.We have huge tracts of land owned by timber companies and investment corporations.Some of the timber companies do well but the investment corporations rape and pillage the timber and nothing but garbage regenerates.There's 1200 acres up the road from my house that turned into nothing but a beech whip jungle.Other than cover,it's completely useless habitat.A company called the conservation fund just got it and it will probably eventually be handed over to the state.I'm curious what they plan on doing.Last year they had have someone go in and wipe out hundreds of acres of junk.I'm interested to see what comes up now.
Another thing,the majority of the really good regeneration is high up on the ridgtops.The deer move into lower elevations when the snow gets deep.They're starting to do that right now.Since most of the damage occurs this time of the year,there's no deer on the ridgtops to impact that regeneration.When we have a mild winter that isn't the case but it's the case this year and last year for sure.
Dougell, go in the woods right now. Find a snowmobile trail and you will find yote tracks and yote scat full of deer hair. they love to run any manmade trail. I agree They are hard to hunt and trap. IF there are less I can't tell. Maybe Roger can tell us:)
I'm not saying you can't find tracks.I'm just saying that there's no where near the tracks today that there was 10-15 years ago.We hear them several times a week during the summer for a while and they seem to go away.A couple weeks later,you'll hear them again.I agree that most of the scat you find will have deer hair in it.It still doesn't mean they killed the deer.It used to seem like we had quite a few of them.Every muddle puddle would have tracks during the summer and there were tracks everywhere in the snow.I had more time to hunt back then and spent countless hours in a tree.Never once have I had one come by me in archery season.I've gotten a few glimpses of them over the years when I had a gun in my hands but never got a good shot.Every year I'd be on hand when one was killed during deer or bear season but it's been probably 6 years since I've seen a dead one.Like I said,I know they're out there but I see no evidence of an increasing population in this part of the state.
I know how he feels.I've never left a message board but I don't partcipate as deeply into these kinds of discussions like I used to.I was once heavily involved with a couple different projects concerning bowhunting and hunting in general.It's easy to get burned out and it's easier to just hunt.The older I get the more I try to just focus on what I can do and ignore the rest.That's probably a poor attitude but,oh well.
I wouldn;t call it poor by any means, doug! HEALTHY is more like it- I try to do the same! ;-)
Look at the UBP.I'm not criticizing any current board members but there were bunch that put a pile of energy into quite a few issues over the years.They're probably burned out at this point but where would we be if it weren't for their efforts?
Can I have a vote in this??? :)
Kill all the deer and import more ELK !!!!!
And.
Clear cut some of the steepest hills(if any) and transplant some mountain goats.
Bill V.
LMBO Bill! I would support the MORE ELK, as long as you spread them over into the Poconos like many years ago! ;-)
From: dougell ........ ....... Date: 11-Feb-15
Look at the UBP.I'm not criticizing any current board members but there were bunch that put a pile of energy into quite a few issues over the years.They're probably burned out at this point but where would we be if it weren't for their efforts?
Fortunately DOug, new people tend to "step up" over the years as some get older and step back. As others have said, it's a good thing. ;-)
Jeff Durnell gets it. You boys need to take some traps and learn something about yotes. More deer are killed by man than any Predators in Pa. Need to stop driving and feeding all the yotes. I usally catch 6-8 yotes a yr in my traps in Erie and Crawford co. and the last 2 yrs something has changed, Just a hunch but I'm thinking Parvo put a hurt on the young yotes.
Well,I've been out of the loop for a while just trying to deal with my own life so I don't know what's going on.I'm sure there are good guys in charge,which is why I said I'm not criticizing anyone.
I don't know squat about up north but here in the SW, There are as many yote tracks as deer tracks in the snow. I've been chasing the devils for a few weeks now.
Nice, Bob. Congratulations on those coyotes. I haven't trapped for years, but I still have all my traps and wouldn't mind getting back into it. Maybe next year. My brother has trapped every year since we were kids. That's his thing.
I think trapping teaches more about animals and nature in general than any type of hunting. I wouldn't mind going up to camp next year on my vacation and doing a combo hike/camp/trap/bowhunt expedition on the state forest. Just a couple traps to give me a few to check each day. I miss that anticipation. I saw a nice grey fox up there last year, a red the year before, and there are a few coyotes around too. Hmmmm... we'll see.
Doug are you a forester? I didn't realize that beech were really not a prefered species? Can you explain why? Reason I ask is I have a good number of them on my property and thought they were a benefit to the habitat. I don't have very many red or white oak but lots of pin oak and beech.
Nature doesn't allow for one species to exterminate another as that would be a contradiction to how nature works. Only man, in his infinite wisdom has the capability to exterminate a species without himself being taken out of the chain.
The problem isn't with the coyotes or bears. Sure they take what they can when the opportunity arises, but that is not as often as the bar room talk would have you believe.
If you can't find deer, it's not because there are no deer. I don't know what you guys would have done if you lived during the 20's and before, when the deer were just about wiped out by man's commercial hunting. Had it not been for the establishment of the Pa. Game Commission and strict hunting regulations, including closed seasons, you would be crying more in your beer than your are now. The coyote is competition, and that pisses people off. There is game for those who want to find it.
LOL! That's pretty cool, whatever it is! ;-)
Back in 1968 a deer was sighted a mile outside of Latrobe Pa. This was in the area I hunt today. The local paper sent a photographer he got a pic and it was front page news. Potter had ALL the deer, no bigger than a German shepherd,:) and camps. The lowlands of Pa had the best habitat fer small game, bunnies, ringneck,squirrels. We didn't complain about no deers.
How's come those folks that hunted Potter and big forest werent complaining about the lack of deer here in the SW flatlands?
We had to go to the mts. around Ligonier to SEE a deer. When I started hunting in 1973, I remember counting 52 deer in a field watching us walk down a farm road. None wore antlers. They weren't scared but we're aware of us.
I thought it was the dumbest idea in the world to look at deer, but not be able to shoot 'em. I began to hate deer hunting and took up squirrel hunting.. Btw I despised Bowhunters cuznthey was in the woods messin up my squirrel hunting.:)
Harv,I'm not a forester.I've just spent countless hours with foresters doing browse impact surveys and studying the habitat and the effects deer have on it.Beech is actually considered an "indicator species".It's not preferred browse and if the deer are hitting it,they likley have nothing else to eat.Beech root sprouts and quickly takes over an area,competing with the preferred species.If that's happening to your area,I'll willing to bet that you have very poor habitat with a very low carrying capacity.
I have also been told beech holds no nutritional value.
Are you guys talking about the American Beech? If so, I can think of a whole lot more trees I'd rather not see in the woods than a beech.
http://www.qdma.com/articles/know-your-deer-plants-american-beech
Just about anything will eat beech nuts including deer.The problem is,the mast crop is not reliable from year to year and it drops early.I'm not talking about the mast though.I'm talking about beech as browse.The deer won't eat it unless there's nothing else to eat.Because of that and the fact that it root sprouts,it will quickly take over an area and provide little benefit to deer.
Understand Doug. But the reliability of mast, and that goes for all mast, depends on a lot of factors, and not just the type of mast it is.
In reality, a bigger issue with browse - both quality and quantity - is the maturity of the forest. And that's where we as hunters and land stewards come into play. Select cutting, select replanting, and even hinge cutting all go a long way to improving the habitat for all game animals - and not just for deer.
Quite frankly, I strongly advocate mast since it's a tremendous source of nutrition for animals to get them through tough winters (fat reserves) whereas browse is a food source that needs to be continuously ingested to be of benefit. It doesn't contribute significantly to fat reserves.
I disagree.First mast is not reliable from year to year.Yes it can put fat reserves on deer but they still need several lbs of browse each day to sustain themselves through winter.Deer can live without mast.They can't live without browse.
Doug,
What in my post do you disagree with.
I noted that mast wasn't reliable, and that lack of reliability depended on a number of factors. All the more reasons to have several different types of mast available - a variety of oaks, both red and white and of various types, as well as beechnuts, a variety of types of hickories, and various fruits.
And the only way you're going to have several pounds of browse per day available (short of major fires) are through timbering in conjunction with replanting. But cutting has to be done wisely or you're going to end up with nothing but junk that doesn't provide quality browse.
Face it- browse isn't the total answer, just like mast alone isn't the total answer.
But in all honesty, I'll take a 20 acre white oak ridge over a twenty acres of clearcut that has grown to nice thick browse. I'll bet my 20 acres of white oaks will provide a whole lot more years of food source than that 20 acre clearcut will.
I disagree 100%.Deer need browse,especially during winter.If you don't have sufficient browse,you have too many deer for that area,regardless of how many are there.
We had a huge mast crop this year.Last year we had none.Last year we had a terrible winter and the deer depended on that browse.In areas without sufficient browse,we lost deer and fawn recruitment was impacted heavily.I witnessed it.This year the deer went into winter in better shape but without browse,recruitment will suffer again.Once a doe loses 20%-25% of her body weight,the chance of her fawns surviving decreases by as much as 95%.Deer aren't digging for acorns around here right now.they can't.They need browse.Mast is good but it's worthless without browse when you have a moderate to severe winter.Mast production is heavily impacted by frosts in the spring.A good late frost will wipe out a good mast production more years than not.I'll take a regenerating clearcut over a mature canopy of oak any day.Also,you don't need a clearcut.There should be a mid level understory beneath a mature canopy.If you don'thave that,you most likely have too many deer.
Deer have lived on this planet for over 3,000,000 years. How long have we been timbering and replanting?
Nature maintains balance in spite of us, not because of us.
Doug, I got what you're saying now, no good as far as "browse" missed that part. Is there a favorite or "preferred" browse? Something that can be planted or promoted to grow? I have been hinge cutting black gum, elm, maple, basically anything that doesn't produce a nut on my property for the last 2 years, I do have an area approximately 1.5 - 2 acres that is coming in nice with what grows (some sumac, some green briar) but still working on it to create a larger area of thicket. I can't compete with acres and acres of corn and soybean but if I can make a nice thick area on my place maybe I'll be able to convince some deer to stay on my place a little more. I have planted some service berry and rodosier dogwood reading they do somewhat well in shaded areas and are prone to creating thickets....
Sorry to hi-jack this thread but I did notice especially last year, that with the thick area I created I personally saw 2 hen turkeys nesting there this past spring. This area was formally open maple woods so I happy with that.
Thanks for your input.
You do need to timber wisely but you don't have to replant.You also have to manage the number of deer with the habitat.
Stick, my clover plot is about 1/2 acre. I planted durano and an annual clover. I spread an annual on it every spring and fertilize it too. I don't hunt over it, I just like helping out the critters. I know they will survive without it, but it just feels good seeing them in there in the middle of winter, digging through the snow to get some clover. And they sure love it all spring through fall. I shot my last deer 4 years ago and I could care less if I ever shoot another one.
Nice, that's what I see here.
That's great but you won't find that in the northern tier right now.We have at least 18 inches of heavy packed snow.My son and I went hunting crows this past sunday and the snow was over my knees and past his waste.It was too much effort to walk more than 100 yards.Now it's frozen and I can walk over the top without sinking in more than a couple of inches.There's no way way the deer will be digging through that stuff.We have deer and I haven't seen a track crossing any of my fields or any of the fields within two miles of my house in several weeks.Last week,I started seeing quite a few deer filtering into the bottoms where the they can get at food by walking the creek bottoms.Deer need browse in these areas,regardless of how much fat they have.They come into these valleys up here once the snow starts to pile up and if you have a couple bad winters in a row,they'll wipe out the browse in these lower elevations.Once that happens,they'll be screwed if there's another bad winter after that.That's the cycle in the northern tier and it's why we'll never have high deer numbers.
RC and Stick & Stirng, You folks better be foregoing the clover, brassica, alfalfa and other highly nutritious food sources and start planting browse.
Them deers absolutely, positively need it, whether they're in ketosis or not.
So will a shot of Wild Turkey:)
A new study out of Wisconsin on coyote found that Coyote feed more on fawns and deer in general in more timbered mountainous areas and less in agricultural areas. As per DR Grant Woods in a recent interview on the Wired to hunt podcast.
That may explain why Jeff sees little evidence of coyote feeding on deer where he hunts and Flatlander see more where he is. Regardless deer biologists seem to worry little about the effects of predators on deer. If predation is up we simply need to cut back on harvest to keep the herd where we want it. The problem is when that hunter pulls the trigger or releases that arrow THEY are now making a management decision, if it's done without thinking of the effects on the herd then we are all in trouble. According to Woods.
I agree, to me it's simple, you see less deer then shoot less you see more shoot more...now just figure out how to get EVERYONE on the same page and then you've accomplished something.
Mike
It will never happen Mike. We instill it on our young hunters that they have to kill to have a successful hunt. A mindset change???
I hunt timber company and ANF about 50% of the time. My experience mirrors what has been stated here. Less deer. Bigger healthier fawns, does and bucks. Less rifle hunters. Many more archery hunters. Too many bears. More understory and not enough logging.
Seems everyone is hung up on yotes killing deer. You would be wise to study the impact of bear predation on fawns as well. Bear numbers are at an all time high around here. I feel they don't get the credit they deserve for killing fawns.
I love hunting the ANF. If a guy wants to stretch his legs, chances are he won't have alot of competition.
Also, quit telling people there are big bucks on public land. Everyone knows the deer are all dead and its Gary Alts fault!
Brett I'm sure someone here will find a study to prove that bear don't eat deer. Then they will tell you that bobcats are vegetarians.
There are just too many volunteer deer bawlogists.
I see what you did there lol
From: RC ........ ....... Date: 12-Feb-15
Don't ya just love how almost every thread on here turns into a pissing match? We need another fixed blade versus mechanical thread. Long live the Rage Mechanical Sissy Pants thing ah ma jig. Can't call IT A BROAD HEAD.. But hey, all those wheel bow boys swear by them. Are they really considered bow hunting stuff?
Dang Roy! You gotta get into ice-fishin'! Then you wouldn't have to come on the BOWSITE and do it (this time of year! ;-)
Mike, ILF stands for International Limb Fitting... basically a standard in how limbs attach to risers... with which some have been adapting old compound risers to work with those limbs as well. Many view it as the high tech side of traditional archery... and the old coot is using it for chum.... since Roger shoots an ILF bow.
Mule Power,
Gettin' kinda personal there ain't ya. LOL!
LOL! I think that's his grandson, stick! ;-)
Ok Jeff in that case ILF is for trad tech junkie sissy pants and everyone I know who use them say they are junk LOL!
Mike
I grew up in Ridgway. I still hunt the ANF. Love those woods. Potential to see anything. The deer herd is way down for sure. But coming back slowly. Seeing some nice bucks on my cams. But mostly at night. We've had groups of guys hunting and have never seen a deer. Then go back to the same spot by myself and see several. They move. Its a big woods.
I had to think about that for a while. One. We live in Armstrong County, Our camp is just outside of Marienville. Once archery season arrives My son and I normally have about 6 stands all on property that is adjacent to ours (most of which is open to hunting). We normally have enough action around the house that camp tends to keep getting put off. But we tend to let the smaller ones walk. My son who did not shoot a buck this year saw three the first day of rifle when I got the one pictured above. One half rack and a small six that is legal in 2F he passed on. The 3rd he said he couldn't see the horns and a vital body part at the same time he couldn't get a shot at. He thinks it could have been the one that I shot. We normally will do a week at camp the last week or two but you have to do your scouting and locate them. The majority of our bucks are with a bow around our house.
Lots of guys are doing that now. They bowhunt where they live and go to their camps for a few days to a week for gun season.
...which I think is an awesome idea :^)
Flatlander, I have a question. Some of our conversation was deleted along with the pics I posted. Was something wrong?
You can't post pictures of gun kills on the Bowsite unless they are deer killed by kids. some slip through the cracks but someone usually will point it out to Phil or he sees it and he deletes them, he's just enforcing the rules.
Mike
Wasn't aware of that...... Back with our conversation... Flatlander...my son and I were on our week long archery hunt at camp in Marienville in November hunting the morning, returning to camp for a late breakfast then resting before going out for an evening hunt is our normal routine. One evening we decided to hunt an area called Stoney Point that I like. They normally take 6 or more bears out of this area each year, lots of laurel. There is an area with a oak filled ridge with a point I like to hunt when the acorns are plentiful it's a hot spot. I put my son there he set up on the ground. I had a climber and went to the other side of the trail, we have walkie talkies and communicate as to the goings on. As the evening developed my son radios me that there is a bear meandering around coming up the slope toward his position. I say "wow, that's neat" stay still see how close he gets til he winds you." A while later he says the bear is still closing, it's big and he's concerned. My son was like 27 at the time 6'4" 240 lbs I said how big can the bear be. If you stand up the bear will likely spook. He said the bear was a lot bigger than he, he stood when the bear was at 25 yards and it continued to move toward him. He then yelled and waved his arms the bruin then spooked and set off in another direction. My son told me later that his concern was the bear was a sow and he didn't see any cubs. If they were around he didn't want to be between a sow and her cubs when she finally spotted him. I told him he had a valid point. There is more to the story............... The next morning we decide to hunt behind camp probably 5+ miles from the previous evenings happenings. We are both using treestands and in the middle of the morning I hear something closing in on me from behind. Sure enough strolling right under me at 5 yards is another Black Bear, good size probably 200 or so lbs at 5yds. That's what I love about archery hunting. It's not what I get or could shoot, it's what I get to see and experience. Last season my son had another close encounter with a fair sized unknown critter. He was all excited telling me what it did and where it went and it was 10 yards away. I asked how it could be 10 yards away and he not know what it was? Back at camp we went on the internet and it was a Fisher. I've seen a lot but I have yet to run into a Fisher. I think a smart move would be to make the sixth and final week of archery deer season archery deer/bear season. It would make sense and they would sell additional bear tags. The PGC will come up with a list of problems like check stations but in a couple hours with some thought I could come up with a workable scenerio.
So you are seeing lots of bear in the Mt laural? You fail to mention the number of deer sightings you had that week. This thread is mostly about opportunities for deer on the ANF. I'm sure an added bear season would be great for most but I don't think it would be a good idea overall. Just my opinion.
A friend of mine sent me a video pertaining to bow hunting the National Forest last season. Really good, the link is below.
https://vimeo.com/121876040
Archer..That video was excellent..best I've seen in years. No selling of any products and nobody telling us how great they are. Just good hard,long hours of Pa bowhunting in their production...Hope these guys continue this type of "blue collar" approach to bowhunting.Sure made the juices flow for this coming November.
I thought it was well done also. I have had the opinion for quite a while that there are a lot of good hunting opportunities close to home that I fail to take advantage of.
Archer,
Thanks for the link. The video is really well produced. It shows the beauty of the forest the solitude of being there and a nice harvest.
Brings back fond memories for sure.
