Bowsite.com

We need your phone calls again! House Bill 2144 will add crossbow to the definition of a bow and allow anyone to use a crossbow during the regular archery season.

As bowhunters, we know the crossbow provides a distinct advantage to the hunter over the game animal by requiring very little if any movement before the shot. The majority of the delegates do not understand this distinction and need to be educated.

We need as many calls as possible to the Delegate Shott at 304-340-3252 starting tomorrow and Thursday or until the Chairman gives his word he will not run this bill.

Tell him you are against expanding the use of crossbows in the archery season and to keep House Bill 2144 off the agenda.

Delegate Shott can be reached at 304-340-3252 or e-mail: [email protected]

Other committee members can be reached by going to this link to get their names and phone numbers. http://www.legis.state.wv.us/committees/house/HouseCommittee.cfm?Chart=jud

With thousands of crossbow hunters in Maryland, Ohio & Pennsylvania surrounding our state, not to mention gun hunters who would want to use a gun-like device in archery season, your archery season will never be the same.

Do your part to keep House Bill 2144 off the agenda. Make some calls and send some e-mails!

It will protect against people that are just too lazy to learn and become proficient enough to bowhunt from invading archery season which could lead to season cutbacks that have been fought hard for throughout the years. If it does become law it will be impossible to reverse.

James

We already have provisions for handicapped hunters to obtain a crossbow permit--and it is abused. They just have to get their family doc to sign off on it and that sure isn't hard. Most docs don't hunt, don't know squat about archery, and don't want to offend an established patient.

Put them in the gun season or muzzleloader season and I have no issue with it. But of course that won't be acceptable because they are not as "easy" to kill something with as a gun. So there you go.

I made the call this morning to oppose the x-gun bill for the general archery season.

WVAbowhunter, you won't have to give up hunting if/when your health will not permit it. As stated, you can already get a permit for a crossbow.

Please explain to me that because I use a rifle during rifle season , but not wanting crossbows legal for everyone during bow season makes me a hypocrite ? I'm salivating waiting for that debate !!

I admit that I don't know that much about VA but as far an Ohio and PA they have a one buck limit total for all weapons. Because of that the impact of crossbows during bow season will not have the impact to the herd that it will in a state with a multiple buck limit.

I know other states like Wyoming allow crossbows during archery season, but you have to remember they have quotas on a unit by unit basis. It is determined ahead of time how many licenses are going to be given out for that year, then they determine what the average success rate is based on past data. After that they don't care how the game is shot, because they know that the number of animals going to be killed will not affect the herd. Contrast that to WV with a multiple buck limit and no way to determine how many tags are going to be sold nor where they will be used until after the fact.

Let's switch this over to fishing and use the same logic that would allow people to use any "weapon" they want. Then is it ok to use bait in a fly fishing only zone?

What if I were just too lazy to take the time and effort to buy a fishing boat and have to deal with all those rods and reels not to mention all those lures and bait. It would be easier to just toss a stick of dynamite into the water and get my fish that way. After all, it would be my "weapon" of choice.

For all of you people that think the crossbow should be allowed in archery season; look at it like this.

Lets allow center fire weapons in muzzel loader season. Those two are a lot closer the same equipment than a crossbow and a long bow.

The ONLY reason a person w/o a disabilty would rather hunt with a crossbow instead of a long bow is because it is easier; no drawing, shot from any position, can use a rest.

Anyone can take a any crossbow that is zeroed in and be spot on accurate. As WE all know that does not happen with a long bow.

Allow crossbows in their own season.

Please explain why I shouldn't be able to use hand grenades, missles, or tanks if I chose to?

like i said before, your either a hunter or a nature lover. there are some opportunities where a cross bow might be better suited for the game in which you pursue, how dare i tell you what you can and cant use. like it or not a crossbow falls into the bow category much like a cva optima elite falls into the muzzle gun category. as for fishing, i dont always agree that some places are made for flyfishing only, but in the end im not gonna fight for my right to bait fish and get him kicked off the stream because im too greedy to share the method in which i use to catch fish. im the type that will embrace the fact that hes out there for the same reason and together we will look over our diffrences on how we like to catch fish and work towards establishing a future for our children.

To those like mudflap who does not like the WVBA and will not support, join or give another dime to the WVBA,I just want to say that the West Virginia Bowhunters Association has been fighting for Bowhunters for 35 years now. They not only follow legislation issues like crossbows, deer farming Sunday hunting and such, they also are involved in the archery in schools program. The WVBA sets up spike camp for future hunters and aid schools in setting up archery programs. The WVBA donate to Hunters helping the hungry, Women in the outdoors and work with the DNR with their programs ,all for the good of bowhunting. The WVBA has been a voice for bowhunter for 35 years.

If you don't want to give another dime to this organization then that's your call. The WVBA will still be out there fighting for Bowhunting and bowhunters. I do not agree 100% with every decision they make, but I will join, help and support the WVBA for the good that they do. Who else is fighting the fight for allowing you to hunt 7 days a week during our long archery season they helped establish. When our 4 archery only counties were in jeopardy of getting a gun season the WVBA was leading the fight to keep it archery only. For those who don't give a dime to the WVBA, you were still represented. The WVBA is for the greater good of bowhunting even if you do not agree with ALL they do and they will continue to do so. Just remember they are stronger and have more say if we do have a larger membership.

Now, I said all of this as a personal opinion. This is what I believe the WVBA is about and if I am wrong about any of my statements then I apologize. If I offended anyone who are haters or do not like what the WVBA stands for then I could care less you are offended.

But I can guarantee that dosen't happen unless a person puts hours and hours and hours into practice with the compound bow. On the other hand a person can be handed a crossbow that has been sighted in by someone else and be proficient out to 30 yards immediately.

One time that I was elk hunting in Arizona I met a guy in camp that could shoot 6 inch groups at 110 yards with his compound. I'm sure that is farther than a cross bow can be that accurate.

The difference was he hunted coues deer with his bow and told me that he practiced 2-3 hours a day, 7 days a week. He said that if something happenned and he couldn't shoot for a couple of weeks he couldn't just pick up his bow and shoot like that. He had to start about 50 yards and build back up. Muscle tone, reflexes , hand eye coordination changes and he has to practice and build things back up.

Now, contrast that with a scope sighted crossbow where you could probably put it up at the end of one season then pick it up the first day of next years season and still hit the circle at 30 yards.

There is a distinct difference between drawing a bow and shooting within sight of the animal vs. pulling a trigger of a weapon that is already drawn and loaded.

LOL, Tell your dad I said hi

Smokey

my father says hi and to get your head out of the gutter and just take advantage of technology and give the guy a ct scan instead of tryin to be dr house and end up getting sued for malpractice

Consider me old fashion but I trust the official State record books more than Facebook , and that is with knowing not everyone turns their buck in for scoring.

I don't know what to think now. One of you guys are telling me to take advantage of new technology, while another is saying the crossbow is ancient technology. LOL

mt william, yes that is my priority. I just want to be able to blow deer up into tiny pieces. After all that is my right. If I but a license and tags I can take my 416 Remington and shoot a deer a hundred times, then if I then determine it is in fact dead and I feel safe enough to approach it without subjecting myself or others to harm then by law I have to use the EDIBLE meat and not discard it.

by the way, where was the cry when the state put in an early gun season in at the end of oct as well as the youth day...and more importantly, who here that is complaining about xbows in archery season took advantage of those two gun early seasons?

Just because someone can do something dosen't mean that it is a good idea to do it.

They don't shoot as far as a modern compound, they are cumbersome, loud, heavy, difficult to maneuver in trees. They are a market driven fallacy. They are their own limiting factor.

One thing I've learned on this site is most everyone basis their opinion on their emotion's in subjects that affect other people or the deer herd. No real facts in it. From buck harvest's to what weapons are to be considered bows. Compounds are no farther from a real bow than a crossbow. So why anyone that hunts with a more lethal version of a bow, can and will claim that crossbows are too easy is beyond my comprehension. I just don't get emotional opinions on topics that shouldn't be determined by emotions.

I have nothing against anyone who hunts with a compound so, I'm not being an elitist towards anyone. I could care less how you decide to do it as long as it's legal. And when I see other men who only object on emotions, it becomes obvious that clear thought involving facts isn't what is driving their opinions. That is fine. I just question how well you intend to get it right versus getting it the way you want it. Just thinking out loud and no harm meant. We are all doing the same. But, you can bet your bottom dollar I'm not making that call. God Bless

PS: That official state record book is by choice of admission. Just like VA's. So, that link doesn't hold much water. Nether does my OPINION either but, I hunt both and there are more bigger deer in VA than WV in my experience.

Money could be made from the sale of 3 high tech instruments and it sure would make it easier.

As an added bonus the DNR could meet their management objectives in a one week archery season so we wouldn't have to worry about trying to get in the woods to hunt in the afternoons and weekends. It would all be over with in a week which would free up more time to do other things. Who really enjoys sitting in a tree anyway?

I won't allow crossbows to be used on my place if they become legal either.

My hope is if they do become legal, and this applies to the deer farm bill that transfers control from the DNR to AG as well dosen't turn into one of those situations where we look back 10 years from now and ask "why did we do that?". I wish we had a healthy population of deer that our children and grandchildren could hunt.

Everybody, make sure you take several good pictures of the deer when you kill them in the next few years so you have something to show your grandchildren.

WVMountaineer, you have stated multiple times that you see multiple big bucks everywhere you go in WV, and now you see even more in VA than WV. All I can say is that I am so envious of you. I wouldn't know what to do if I saw huge bucks everywhere everytime I went somewhere. That would be so nice. And you're right, I don't even know why they keep state records anymore, nobody turns them in. Maybe Im mistaken, but I thought WV had a new state record bow kill turned into the state to be scored this year , but I must have been thinking of something else since nobody does that anymore and it's all on Facebook.

Also, does anybody know how Facebook scores their bucks? A lot of the bucks I see there seem to have higher scores than I would have thought. Just curious, I'm getting older and my eyes don't work as well as they used to.

I must be really missing something. I give up. I am going to get a crossbow, shoot 3 spikes a year, and start a deer farm.

gobbler, the only thing hurting the deer is the coyotes, the bears, and the vehicles. there are way less people now hunting and the most of the people that are gonna use crossbows are already using them.

i still cant believe your logic, you have it as good as me.. you live on a game farm. you take side by sides right to your kill, you feed the hell out of them and have stands either over feed piles or put in stratigic places overlooking food plots. id wager that your bow is as nice as my bassboat...and your gonna chastize a guy who uses a crossbow smh..you sit up in them blinds and whisper im doing it the right way? c'mon man i would think, with the way in which you chastize methods, ideals, etc. that you would be a pillar of health, getting up every day to a vigorous physical routine to keep the body in shape for the hunting excursions then practicing 2-3 hours to hone the skills for a perfctly placed shot...you know, a donnie vincent kinda guy....but i think we all know better than that lol. you got it made, but feel you need to interject based on hell i dont know, what, your posh setup on the mt? the guided hunting excursions around the world? give me some background so i can try to understand where you have the right to judge people by the weapon they wish to harvest the animal, and the intelligence to look into the future and see what kind of shitty job the dnr is gonna do in wiping out the deer herd, (based on the grandkid story above).

ill be waiting with my cup of tea for merit.

Mr. Gobbler, I agree with you and am still waiting on the pictures I requested of some of those big WV bucks mentioned so often by WVMountaineer.

I did my part in opposing the x-gun bill. On what planet should a crossbow be classified the same as a stick or compound bow? I fully understand that there are folks out there that just can not use a stick or compound and they have every right to obtain a 'legitimate' permit to use a crossbow. They have the same right as anyone else to hunt BUT, the quack Dr.s handing out the bogus permits should be turned in to the WV medical board. Every one of us know someone with a permit that with a honest evaluation from a real Dr would not have.

jus' my 2cents

I know I'm a bit pudgy, but I used to run about 20 miles a week until I feel out of a tree stand back in 1994 and ended up with surgery on my back. It did pretty good for about 15 years until it went out again. Because of that and the fact I'm getting closer to 60 my physique isn't what it used to be. I'm just glad all those coupons for sheep, goats, grizzly and stuff came in the mail while I could do them. It was kinda unfortunate that a lot of them were in Canada, Africa , Alaska, or Wilderness areas where by law a guide or outfitter is required by law.

I don't see that I'm trying to impose my idea of what a bow is on anyone. What I do see, and what has played out thru the years is a group of people trying to impose a weapon that they( by some illogical stretch of the imagination) feel belongs into an archery season.

I would support them 100% if they wanted their own season, but that is not what they want, they want the whole archery season.

And somehow, I'm the bad guy.

you preach like donnie vincent and execute like ted nugent. sit down, look in the mirror, and tell yourself over and over again, "yes smokey, you are doing it the lazy way too".

Sabol, I just don't get where you are going with this. Yes, in my younger days I used to backpack 4-5 miles into the cranberry back country set up a pup tent, eat freeze dried food and hunt. One time it took me 6 hours and 2 episodes of puking to drag a deer out. Physically, I can't do that anymore. I wish I could but I can't. This recent episode of acute renal failure has further damaged my strengh and endurance.

However, I still use a bow. Yes, it is a compound but I still have to draw it back and hold it. There are legal avenues for people with disabilities that need a crossbow during archery season to use them.

Yes, I use a ranger to retrieve game on my farm. I understand it may be a shock, but I even use my truck to get from Charleston to my farm. I realize I could walk from Charleston to Monroe county but that just seems a little much. I could even try to walk on my hands but my balance isn't what it used to be.

What I don't understand is what any of that has to do with using a weapon that clearly by any logical reasoning is not a bow during bow season.

I don't want to hear that crossbow has bow in it and that must mean its a bow. A bowfin has bow in it also and I think that we can all agree that using one to try and kill a deer would be difficult.

everything about your hunting setup is lazy, from the compound bow, to the method of deer transport. it doesnt sound like you have kept up with your health as you have aged, so what i am saying to is sit down, take a look at yourself in the mirror and say, hello pot, meet kettle, the guy who judges people based on their method of hunting even as i practice the same. i am doing nothing for the hunting community and the future of the sport by bashing other hunters. signed, smokey

Rocks, clubs ,spears and the atlatl are even older than crossbows but still not allowed in bow season. Why? Because like the crossbow they are not bows. Bowhunting is suppose to be a challenge but some want to take a lot of the challenge out of it by watering it down with a gun type weapon. I don't see the outcry to get a hard to use atlatl allowed in bow season.

if he wants to take the jabs personal, so be it. i know many physicians and my father is one. they are all fat and happy. welcome to america.

Sabol, first I sincerely hope that you or you family suffer no injuries, accidents or unexpected health suprises. They are real and cause real changes to what you can and can't do. I was healthy and hopping thru the high Rockies chasing sheep and goats before my fall from a tree stand. I didn't plan to fall, a step pulled out of a white pine and there I went. I sure didn't plan on going into Renal failure either. I'm glad I was able to do those things when I could so now I can sit and look up at the mounts and relive the story in my mind instead of sitting and whining about the people that did. I feel like I'm in the twilight zone. Logically, it would seem to me that the person with several health problems would be the one fighting to use a crossbow during bow season instead of a younger healthy person that just dosen't appear to want to put in the time to use a bow proficiently.

I like technology. I'm writing this on an IPhone while watching TV on a big screen Ultra-high definition TV that is streaming a ultra-high definition show from 150mbps broadband wireless internet while hearing the sound thru a Bluetooth connected surround sound system. But it affects no one but myself(except my wife who thinks the subwoofer is to loud at times). Unlike the technology that you speak of which has the potential to affect season length and bag limits for everyone else.

I'm not sure what happenned, but the way I have my farm set up and the way I hunt sure didn't seem to be such a concern when you contacted me a couple of years ago about trading some farm work for permission to hunt my farm because you lost permission on the place where you hunted. In retrospect, it looks like I made the right decision, because I find it hard to believe that someone that can't find the time to practice with a bow a few evenings a week to be able to shoot 20 yards and needs to use a crossbow would ever find the time to do much if any farm work. It almost sounds that you just wanted to step in and take advantage of a situation that has taken decades to develop. At this time, my one regret is that I took over a month to think about it and come up with a decision because I consider your father a friend.

i thought a man of your character and intelligence would be above calling someone lazy for their choice of weapon, more directly sterotyping hunters you have never met. most people of your status would tend to think outside the box and just agree or disagree with the process or decision and move on, but you needed a punchline. all the stuff i read from you and stories i heard made me think of you as the latter and the reason for my contact, until your post above.

ill be fine, ill live and die fat and happy and ask for every comment i made. i will continue to sock it to a man who labels people based on his own ignorance. you dealt it i called it. the next time you wanna call someone lazy, before you do, make sure your not in that chair of yours on the iphone in frt of the big screen. thats time you could be walking towards a fitter life, jus saying.

Gobbler in regards to the proof of some of these deer, you are not getting coordinates, hints, tips, or invites to come hunt them. :^) A lot of the deer I see are on private land, in gun counties that you most certainly aren't welcome. :^) And lastly, surely you know that seeing, and seeing and photographing are two different things.

As far as the VA comment, if you are naive enough to believe that agriculture rich VA doesn't produce more big bucks than WV, you are lost. I happen to spend a lot of time in that state too. And have family that lives and hunts there yearly. While I have no bonafide proof and, do not care to look it up to provide it, it has been my experience that VA produces more big bucks than WV does. And the proof will support that if you care to look it up. Why don't you do that? Than post it here for us all?

Then you got Danny. Danny, I have NEVER stated I kill a lot of big deer. Never. You know that but, just like you handled disagreement in your other endeavors, you can't distinguish or fathom you aren't the greatest thing walking. When you start spending 20 or so days a month in the woods for long hours, you'll see a few things you don't normally see while looking over the feeder. And I know you hunt/have hunted over a feeder even though you've never stated that to my knowledge. Mainly because I'm certain that any man who has spent time hunting in southern WV that hasn't killed a few really good bucks, has ruined their hunting areas with the deer deterrent feeder's.

I do find it ironic that you chooses to twist things that have never been said, and lob your idea of lame insults from your den. You are a real winner. But, you can put this to rest. PM me for my address and phone number. I'll make time if you will.

Good night fellas. Greg, let me know when the DNR meetings are please. I'll buy you dinner and show you a few trail cam pics. God Bless

I don't see the big deal with us saying don't lump crossbows into bow season but give them their own season... just baffles me

As far as classifying a group of people as lazy that don't want to take the time nor make the effort to learn to bowhunt but expect for everyone else to change the rules so that they can just pick up a crossbow and go hunt during bow season, then I stand by my statement.

I don't play golf but if I did I wouldn't expect for them to change the rules so I could just putt the ball into the hole instead of having to practice and make the long shots too.

It has nothing to do with denying someone to use the weapon of their choice, but it has everything to do with allowing the appropriate weapon in the appropriate season.

"As far as classifying a group of people as lazy that don't want to take the time nor make the effort to learn to bowhunt but expect for everyone else to change the rules so that they can just pick up a modern compound and go hunt during traditional archery season, then I stand by my statement."--circa 1985

I'm sorry smokey, what did you say you hunt with? A modern compound? Hmmmmm....dare I say hypocrisy at its finest

James

hey, maybe if I had one of each I could be "the greatest thing walking".

James

James

He said several amendments have been made to it or will be made soon - one being not to allow crossbows into the bow only counties. This is just another reason why I think there should be an individual crossbow season and not inclusion - just a bunch more rules and laws to go by that will be very confusing.

He also stated that there was no deer shortage anywhere in WV and that the sponsors of the bill thought they had the support from the DNR on this. I sort of found this interesting and to me if there is no shortage anywhere in WV then why were there only 37000 bucks killed - I am thinking this is just a ploy for increased revenue. Again I just cannot believe why there is an issue with creating a crossbow season instead of including them in them into archery season....

He also told me to read the bill that came out of the natural resource and ag committee and to email him any suggestions - that it will be likely to change here over the next ten days - so whatever your thoughts or feelings are on this - now is the time to crank out the emails!

So far, I have yet to see a video on you tube or hear a crossbow hunter talking about shooting a dang game animal at 60 plus yards. You tube and hunting shows are full of visual proof of compound hunters doing just that. So, what are you basing your insinuations on? My goodness, you pull a bow that is all but set up to pull itself. You hold the equivalent of the weight of a gallon of milk at full draw. How is that not all but the same?

Exactly what is the way you are looking at it? I just don't understand. Why don't you enlighten me like you did the rep. I might change my mind if it is based on something besides your opinion. God Bless

Again my thoughts on this is - its not about distance but it is about being busted by a deer at a close distance when you go to draw your bow back. Now are you going to tell me that it is not a game changer between a longbow, recurve, and even a compound compared to a crossbow? So I guess you are for the locking device for the compound where you can draw your compound back and it stays locked in that position???

I guess you are a better hunter than I am if you have never been busted by a deer when drawing your bow back - because it has happen to me quite often.

Yes, I have shot all. And yes I see a major difference in shooting a scoped crossbow. And I don't see the 40 yards limitation that you see. I have shot several crossbows that I did not sight in, a friend and neighbor have one and they and I were hitting a bullseye out to 60 yards with basically everyshot - they had scopes on their crossbows with vertical lines spaces for the yardage differences. I actually had fun shooting the crossbow also and again I will state "a crossbow should be a legal weapon in WV with its own season.

I like to hunt with a traditional bow but I am forced to hunt with a compound every now then because of a shoulder and neck injury from being hit by a drunk driver.

You see I feel that there are things that are not fair in life - wasn't fair that I have been hit by two drunk drivers and have a bum shoulder and knee reconstructed - in which I could have disability from doctor for. But I like the challenge and do what I can to be able to do the things I like. I bought a bowflex because it is better for shoulder than free weights - and by using the bowflex I can still draw my bows back. I still walk the golf course instead of riding a cart even though I had to have my knee reconstructed back in 1985.

Even though I don't flyfish anymore I think flyfishing only areas should remain so and not be opened for baitcasting or spinning rods - call me a meanie if you want - I just don't see a problem with it. Sometimes things are not easy and it takes some work to be able to participate.

And for those who say it won't make a difference in harvest just allow for more participation - I have two neighbors and a friend who all had bows but did not want to take to practice - who got crossbows and in the over the past two years each have harvested their season limit with bow - where before they did not. They were able to get permits even though all three cut firewood, two are painters, all three are flyfishermen, but cannot pull a bow back. So my experience tells me the crossbow will make an extreme difference in harvest numbers. And if it does I want the dnr to be able to easily adjust their season if needed instead of adjust all of archery season. Oh - and all three of the crossbow guys I know say that one of the deer they killed with crossbow were at 50 yards plus. And they may be lying to me but I saw two of them shoot and they were capable of doing so from what I saw.

So there is my reasoning, Mountaineer - again I don't see the big issue with it - so explain to me how I am? You can go way back and look at my post from years before and I have always stated I think there should be a crossbow season - one of my ideas was to have a primitive weapons seasons for muzzleloaders (and no inlines separate season for them) and crossbows). I think they are much close to be similar weapons but again that is my opinion.

jay d where you gonna put it? gun season? first of the year when the bucks are losing horns and the does are pregnant? change is coming, you tell me where the most logical place is? its not a gun (read the def of it above) so thats out. there is one logical place ding ding...

what are you gonna say next year when the harvest goes back up to 50 or 60k kills? god just magically pulled more deer out of his ass? the deer are there. the number of hunters is dropping dramatically, the weather was chit, and some people refuse to get off their corn piles and out of their trucks.

mr dentist quotes "The reason that crossbows were not allowed is because bow season is suppose to be a primitive weapons season. And since they have an advantage they were excluded and I don't care how old they are.,and I'm just a wet fingered dentist but renal failure doesn't have anything to do with taking care of yousellf" - - your right, it doesnt. and i made no such correlation...pre med classes should have taught you that there are very few roads that lead to being "pudgy", i think thats the term he described himself. not exercising and staying fit is a big one there wet finger. a man that travels the world to hunt as well as right here at home could most certainly have the ability to keep good health measures such as proper body weight and cardiovascular health.

he labeled his own kind "lazy" and incompetent. i was just asking him to sit down look in a mirror and call a horse a horse. i called him out on his own punch.

me, im no pillar of health anymore, but i also dont go around on the world wide web calling my own kind lazy and incompetent. the ONLY hunters you folks need to be calling out are the poachers, period. now if you will excuse me, its a long walk down to hell, so i better get started. dont wanna be late for the campfire.

I can go and grab my compound at anytime and know that with one pin I will be good to go out to 30 yards. I still practice with the compound several times a week to keep my shoulder strong enough but I cannot tell you the last time I have had to make a pin adjustment.

I can tell you right now I have been busted a number of times over the past 40 years when I have drawn the bow back - you eliminate that part out of the hunt and you cannot tell me that you don't! To me it is just the same as saying that to include the crossbow with bow season is not the same as saying that baitcasting and spinning rods should be allowed to be used in a flyfishing only area. Why should we have any specific season then????

What I don't understand is how someone can be against others for saying don't put crossbows in bow season but give them their own season. Go back and at least read my post - I have said it can be the same length if dnr thinks its ok and if not put it in anytime during the season doesn't bother me - just keep it separate and make a permit for it. That way if kill does increase then you can adjust each season accordingly. Again after talking to sponsor of the bill - he said amendment is going to be made for bow only counties - if there was a crossbow season wouldn't need to waste time for an amendment or make additional rules or laws.

Why is it a problem to have specific seasons or areas for some of you? Again should there not be any flyfishing only areas or bow only areas? Guess there should not be any wilderness areas either - I mean I am getting older now and can't walk back into the otter creek wilderness area or cranberry like I use to - shouldn't they open the trails up now so we can drive back so everyone can enjoy those areas???

Ohio deer season 1946-1976 (30 year span) deer herd increased over 800% limit for most of this time was one deer per season and buck only in gun season unless you drew a doe lottery tag 1976 - 2006 (30 year span) deer population grew over 300% this included multiple deer harvest as high as 6 deer per hunter in some areas, bonus gun season on weekends and also had 2 years of a 2 week gun season as well. 1976 was the first year the crossbow was brought into the Ohio archery season. They also allowed to use of a mechanical release for all hunters in I believe 1986? Also they introduced youth gun season and increased general hunting season by two more weeks.

I have been bow hunting for 37 years and I heard this EXACT SAME story when they brought compounds into mainstream.

Here is the problem the DNR wants a much, much, much, much smaller deer herd than we have. The best way for them to get there is by what was stated above a early season Muzzleloading season.

now as for negative impact I would say no because we continue to have a increased deer herd.

What I see as negative impact is the infighting amoung (US/WE HUNTERS as a WHOLE.

Think about how long gun season would be if there were no croassbows in the woods. The deer herd swould be HUGE and the only way to knock it down would be a looooong gun season. Or a gun season in the rut like Indiana does.

Crosbbows add $$$$ to our economy they get a lot of young kids out who could not pull back 40lbs bows, they get a lot of new hunters out there also.

Trust me guys I love to bow hunt but these younger generation folks do not want to work super hard to achieve what they want like alot of us had to do throughout the 70-80's. Thge crossbow gets them into the woods thats for sure.

The best thing to happen to bow hunting with young kids is the movies example "Hunger games"

What I find funny is compound users will say a crossbow does not belong in an archery season because archery season should be kept more primitive!

Well the last time I looked the crossbow was invented in the 1400's and the compound was invented in the 60's

Anyhoot I would rather have 90K hunters in the woods representing putting money into the DNR than only 40K bow hunters.....

Facts for 2011-2012 Ohio Deer Harvest: 90,828 deer killed during the traditional gun season.

17,172 deer killed during 2 day bonus season.

82,732 deer killed during the archery season.

Archery accounted for 38% of the total harvest.

10 years ago archery accounted for 22% of the total.

44,979 deer killed with crossbows in 2011-2012.

37,753 deer killed with vertical bows 2011-2012.

Crossbows accounted for 54% of archery deer kills.

The vertical bow harvest decreased by 8% in 1 year.

The crossbow harvest increased by nearly 1,000 deer.

8,867 deer killed in the youth season.

19,459 deer killed during muzzleleoader season.

Opinion: Given that muzzleloaders now kill less than 1/4 of what archery hunters kill, and...

Given that crossbows routinely kill more than twice as many deer as muzzleloaders...

We may well be looking at muzzleloaders joining the general archery season, or expanding their own season. Don't laugh. They have become the lowest harvest group in Ohio, and would be a logical choice to give additional opportunities to kill deer...especially if the goal is to increase opportunities and harvests. Besides, they too have full stocks, scopes and triggers.

Crossweapons have decidedly changed the game completely in Ohio. Negative or Positive is a subjective experience. I know that crossbows haven't done a damned thing to build on the (once cherished) idea that bowhunting was a sport of limits. The concept of the crossweapon is to overcome as many bowhunting limits as possible within the framework of the law. It's the same mentality that drives almost all of technology in our world. Invent something that makes success easier. That is 100% of why crossweapons have swallowed and eclipsed vertical bows in Ohio and many other states. At some point the vertical bow falls out of favor, and stocked weapons will be the new bowhunting normal.

From: rawdawg ........ ....... Date: 03-Feb-13

Sabol, if you want you can PM me your number and next time I come down I'll call and invite you over for a cup of coffee. That way we can sit down and discuss face to face your concern over my health and lifestyle. That would be fun.

Bk there may be a few on here who don't want a crossbow to be use at all in WV but I think most of us are saying allow it to be legal just make a crossbow season.

"We need your phone calls again! House Bill 2144 will add crossbow to the definition of a bow and allow anyone to use a crossbow during the regular archery season."

I feel very much the same way as JayD has described. If they want any able-bodied hunter to use the weapon it should have its own season, keep it separate from archery season since its not a bow.

The bill I and others are opposed to changes the definition of a bow. How can a hand held, hand drawn, hand released device be the same as a one that is always locked and loaded?

I feel like that our bow hunting heritage in this state is being sold out for the all mighty dollar. If you don't think that x gun companies are not putting money in this fight, then you are a fool.

Finally, to all my brothers and sisters of the bow,(a hand held, hand drawn bow, not an x gun) ask your self what would Fred Bear do?

#wwfbd?

This has nothing to do with some misguided concept about personal choice of weapon.

It has everything to do with appropriate weapon for the appropriate season to maximize opportunity while protecting the resource in order for the DNR to achieve their management objectives.

I say this as a life member of the NRA

I call a spade a spade a bow a bow and a crossbow a crossbow.

I don't confuse them by changing their definitions.

I'm also not trying to tell anyone they can't use one. I'm doing what I can to protect heritage of archery season and what I believe bow hunting to really be.

It is my right to voice my opinion, x guns are not archery. I will fight this fight with the upmost respect to those who don't see things the way that I do. Un like bkbowhunter whom has called my opinion stupid.

#wwfbd?

Let WV make it a 1 buck limit and who cares if crossbows come in....

Look at the so called bow that sswv posted . That's what will be ok in bow season. Looks good for killing zombies but really, deer in archery season?

I figure once its all said and done and the next generation of crossbows evolve into who knows what somebody will come up with" lets let the handicapped use slug guns in bow season".

Both of my boys could hunt with crossbows almost immediately if i got them crossbows because we shoot guns often. There is a significant advantage with a crossbow. I have shot crossbows often, but never hunted with one....i bowhunt in Ohio as well as WV. Several of my friends hunt with crossbows in Ohio. We all agree crossbows have advantages.

Having said that, I totally agree with JayD in his comments about making them legal, just a separate season even if it runs the entire length of archery season.

I hope crossbows do become legal, just with their own season. This will increase hunter partcipation. This is always critical for the sustainabilty of hunting.

Virginia immediately saw a significant increase in hunter participation and deer harvest. Fortunately the increased deer harvest hasnt had a negative impact on the Va herd. However, if for some reason harvest numbers needed to be dialed back, whatever changes would happen for crossbows would happen for archery and vice versa. Crossbows and bows are forever connected. I hope that doesnt happen in WV.

We could all just pick up a weapon of our choosing and go out and shoot as many deer as we want whenever we want?

The way it looks some people wouldn't be satisfied with that and would demand more. Whatever that would be

Now a question for crossbow supporters: Would you join this organization given their stance on your weapon of choice?

James

If you are so blinded by the WVBA and their stance on crossbows and ignore the fact they do great things for us hunters then thats your problems. But it sounds like you just want to bring them down. Have a nice life

NO, while I would have no control over who joins( we don't require a questionnaire, do a lie detector test, or require a background check on anybody that wants to join, I will not vote for an award for anyone that uses a cross bow to kill their game that is up for an award.

That is not to say I would discriminate. If they become legal and a hunter would shoot a doe somewhere with a crossbow, but then used a compound to take a trophy buck and that could be verified, then in my opinion the buck would be eligible for a trophy. If they used a crossbow on the buck then no. Just the same as I would not hold back a trophy for someone that happens to gun hunt also.

I can't see a situation that I would vote for a crossbow hunter for hall of fame, bowhunter of year etc.

Again, that's only my opinion.

No wvbownut, WVBA would not raffle one off. WVBA refused to accept a crossbow that a dealer offered as a donation last year. Hated to offend them but standards are standards.

I like things black and white and don't care for 50 shades of gray.

By definition, being close to something dosen't make it something. Scientists use chimps for testing because they are close to humans, but I've never seen a chimp that is a human.

Jay D, I wasn't trying to be an obtrusive idiot when I asked you that. I just find zero reasons to believe the crossbow is what most here suggest. Also, I hate to break it to you but, you aren't right about crossbows increasing kills. It hasn't in PA in their fledgling years of allowing them. More importantly, you are miwsrepresenting the numbers from Ohio to provide a false sense of security that you are right. For one they were allowed in Ohio in 1976. Since then the herd has grown significantly. So, harvest numbers went up with every weapon. Same as harvest numbers went up in WV in the time the herd grew here with any weapon. Simply trying to say the kill has increased because crossbows are allowed is incorrect and a faulty way of validating that you are right in your own mind.

Those numbers sabol provided prove nothing. No offense sabol. Mainly because WV archers currently kill more archery deer than they did in 1976. they also kill more deer than WV muzzleloader hunters. Which hasn't always been true. Just like in Ohio. They do not increase harvest numbers any where according to data compiled in states where the herd hasn't grown with the croosbow. Harvest data in states that have recently allowed them to enter bow season like Pa shows no increase in harvest numbers . Naturally, like in Ohio, If they are the weapons that most archers chose than Yeah, more deer are going to be killed with them than with vertical bows. But, simply trying to base the claim the harvest will increase because archers will switch weapons is unfounded and, proven incorrect by states that have just recently allowed them. So far those numbers prove you wrong.

I guess you could get busted easier with a bow that must be drawn in the presence of game but, you also loose many shot angles from tree stands with the crossbow you won't with vertical bows. The tree your stand clutches eliminates almost 180 degrees of shot opportunity's with a crossbow from treestand's. Not so with the vertical bow. So, there is a give and take with both far beyond these two comparisons that is just nit picking. In other words, this is emotional feely stuff that isn't going to amount to a hill of beans difference in harvest numbers between the crossbows and vertical bows.

If you or your buds were drilling bullseye's every time at 60 yards with a crossbow, you were doing it using a rest. Once again, provide one link to a video or article where a crossbow hunter speaks or shows themselves shooting an animal at 90 yards. Try it with a compound. You'll find untold stories and, even video's proving that the compound is much deadlier at longer ranges.

I've been shooting some type of bow for 30 plus years. I know what happens with any compound bow if the arrow becomes to light. Even on modern compounds, an arrow that is to light will show a widening gap in the pins at ranges past 35 to 40 yards. That gap will continue to get larger as the range increases. Being that a crossbow bolt is much lighter, they do in fact die past 40 yards in comparison for the same reason. Check those scope hash marks or tell everyone how far you had to hold over to hit like that. A modern compound with hunting setup shows the same pin gap between 50-60 as it does between 30-40. I've personally never saw a 60 yard crossbow scope but, the hash marks from 30 to 40 in the scopes I have saw and shot are twice as wide as 20-30. that means the thing is drooping very quickly and at a range much closer than it will with a compound bow.

I never said you couldn't bench rest shoot targets at 60 yards with a cross bow and hit reasonably well. What I did say that a modern compound in the hands of a competent archer is more accurate and capable at the yardages you accuse the crossbow for being more deadly. They are more efficent mainly because the arrow doesn't loose velocity as quickly as it does when shot from a crossbow.

I'm really not trying to change your mind. I'm trying to point out that the reason you are against them is simply emotional. I don't mind that you or anyone else doesn't like them. I'm just not willing to let you tell me something false to validate why I'm wrong about not seeing them as the end of our great bow season. Besides, it's 6 degrees outside with heavy wind and, I don't watch much TV, :^) God Bless

My question for you and all the others who insist it must be included in bow season and not have a crossbow season. If a crossbow is so great and will revolutionize archery season - why are you embarrassed by them for not wanting a season for them so it would be considered a crossbow kill - but no - instead you want to be able to call it a bow kill????

Again - I say yes have a crossbow season and let it run concurrant with bow season. If as you say it won't make a difference then great but if what I think will happen and what I have seen happen with people I know who use a crossbow and kills increase then the DNR can adjust the season for crossbows or with archery with out adversely affecting one or the other. How is that a problem unless it is because someone thinks it is better to say it was a bow kill rather than admit it was a crossbow kill. Gosh - stop being embarrassed by your choice of weapon! LOL

My brother, no embarrassment here. The facts are the facts. Everything else is just emotionally driven thought. I don't base my emotions on what I think in most anything until I have looked at the facts of any situation. So, my thoughts are my ideas but, they aren't emotionally driven on my desire's. I see no reason to make crossbow's out as something other than what their history has them as. I don't hunt with one and and very grateful that I don't have too. I'm a hunter, not just a bow hunter and, hunting is still hunting. The more hunters we have, the more insurance we have to be allowed to hunt. And the more kids we have that will grow to represent the hunter, not the XBOX.

I see your interest to protect the bow season as is. I too want to protect it but, participation isn't up in PA since introducing them as a weapon's choice so, neither is the harvest. Therefore, I do not believe protection from the crossbow is warrantied. It never has been else where. Because they do not increase bow kills. No need for a special season. And no need to keep the aging or younger hunters out of the woods because they can't draw a bow well. Last time I checked, participation in relation to population is going down. Not up. I say protect hunting, not promote ideas that hurt it or incorrect assumptions of protecting it.

Hey, we all have our stance. I just didn't/don't understand why they are deemed unworthy to be grouped in with bow season. Good luck hunting this year and God Bless

If the season is separate, even though it runs the same length as the archery season, it can be adjusted by our wildlife experts, without any loss to the entire archery hunting community!

Also, look at the picture posted earlier by sswv. Even I like that! I bet every "Rambaling Rambo Redneck", would love to "Stand on the seat, steer with his feet, as he careens through the trees on his ATV, shooting from the hip!"

The Crossbow kill "WILL" out number the conventional archery equipment kill in a very short time span. More total animals might not be harvested, however it will happen in a much shorter time frame. Today, the opening day of Gun Season, results in more deer being killed between daylight and noon, than bowhunters kill in a 3+ month season. This results in less hunter recreation hours, which equals less economic impact to the local community. Hunt um, Kill um, Phone it in and go home!!!

House Bill 2144, has legs. This means it is on a fast track for passage. It is rumored that the Chair of House Natural Resources has hunted with a Crossbow for at least 5 years and possibility longer. This is why it flew out of committee last Tuesday morning with a vote of 18 to 6. In my humble opinion.....18 sheep and 6 hero's! Just a rumor, and you "cats" know all about rumors.....Pun intended!

Percentage of total bow kill by crossbows 2008 - 10 percent 2009 - 11 percent 2010 - 27 percent 2011 - 32 percent 2012 - 36 percent 2013 - 39 percent

Here is the total bow kill for each year 2008 - 26,920 2009 - 27,373 2010 - 27,286 2011 - 26,929 2012 - 27,216 2013 - 32,555

Although the percentage of crossbow deer in the total archery kill has risen steadily during the past five years, the total archery kill has been stable with the exception of a jump of about 5,000 in 2013.

There are a lot of variables. For example, in urban/suburban areas there is no limit on the number of antlerless deer that can be killed via archery tackle. When crossbows were proposed for use by any hunter in Md., there were the exact same complaints that are being heard now in West Virginia. With the passage of time, those complaints have been proven to be unfounded when it comes to hurting the deer population. There are still those hunters, of course, who object to the way in which another person hunts. It is very similar to a fly fisherman complaining about another angler using Powerbait to catch a trout.

You say crossbows are not making a difference in bow season in some of these states - my brother in law whose family owns several big farms in PA would disagree with you on that. His family have allowed anyone who ask for permission to hunt - up until this year. The reason being in the past very few family members hunted except for him but now he has a couple of nephews and nieces who have taken up the deer hunting - he said here recently they have had a lot of deer taken on there farms by people using crossbows so they have now limited the number of people hunting. Now could that be him making up an excuse to stop people hunting his land maybe but I have never had any reason to question anything he has told me before. And he was not telling me because I wanted to hunt any of the farms because I don't hunt PA. From what he told me the number of archery kill just on there farms more than doubled. From just the examples here around my neighborhood - I know of 3 guys who killed their limit this year with their crossbows that before with a bow they probably averaged out at about 1 year between the 3 of them! And quite a few years they did not get any deer at all. So it is my experiences that crossbows will increase the deer kill and success percentages - which at some point will require a decrease in bag limits or shortening of season.

And again - I would like just one good reason why those for a crossbow are against a crossbow season which can run concurrent with all of bow season are against that and demand that it has to be lumped into bow season - it just makes no sense to me.

And if the rep I talked to yesterday is right and they change the definition of a bow to include a crossbow but they are going to have an amendment to not allow crossbows in the bow only areas - just tell me how that is going to work and how it makes any sense???? I see a lawsuit happening on this one! To me that just states if you are going to allow it to be called a bow but not allow it in a bow only county then you must believe it is a more efficient weapon.

If you have something to say, SPEAK UP, I can't hear you. Do you want to meet face to face or not?

Again my question would be why would you feel the need for this kid to be embarrassed to say it was a crossbow kill if he had used a crossbow and they were legal and had there own season. Why would this kill need to be labeled a bow kill? I would offer a congrats no matter what the weapon as long it was legal and in the appropriate season.

My only take on your opinion and other crossbows inclusionist guys who don't want a crossbow season is that you must be embarrassed to say you or someone else used a crossbow!

You are right though it is pathetic where this country is headed - because everyone feels that there must be no rules or goals or challenges and it must be made easy for all.

Again - explain to me what is wrong and how it hurts for someone to label their kill as a crossbow kill during a crossbow season but instead you need for it to be lumped into bow season just so the person can call it a bow kill??? Again - from what I see most on here say lets have a crossbow season and allow it to run concurrent with bow season. Again the only reasonable conclusion is you must be embarrassed to say it is a crossbow kill so who has a lower held opinion of a crossbow you are me - because once again I and many others on here are saying make it a legal weapon with its own season!

I will sit here and tell you right now if I had the choice between a muzzleloader or a crossbow I am pretty sure I would choose the crossbow - just because of the noise. I had fun shooting a crossbow but its not a bow! Like JR posted in another area - I did not miss the bullseye once when I shot the crossbow -even at 60 yards and yes I was using a rest - and I can tell you when I shoot my recurve, longbow or compound - I am not as proficient with them at shorter distances as I am with a scoped crossbow at the same distance. Good gracious is that not why they made scopes to be used over iron sites to be more proficient? I am pretty sure I read somewhere that the DNR never thought of bow season as an efficient way to control our deer herd but started it to allow more recreation time for guys willing to take up the challenge. Now there are guys who want to keep making the challenge easier and easier. At some point there has got to be a breaking point to say "take the challenge and stop being a darn wussy!"

Ok there are some who will say what about the handicap - well there is a permit for those who need it and as we all know for those who really don't need it also.

Ok now the arguement - well what about kids. I have kids and take them hunting and fishing too. How about teaching them that everything is not fair or easy and sometimes you need to work to be able to do things. If they are too young to pull a bow back then take them squirrel hunting or fishing. Or maybe just say hey there is a crossbow season that you can hunt in and it will be called a crossbow kill and not a bow kill but if you really want to bow hunt then lets work at it and in time you can bowhunt! Lets get back to teaching our kids and some adults that sometimes you need to work at things to be able to do it. And you know all of this can be done and still offer a crossbow season - its a freaking miracle!

Maybe if you took better care of yourself and addressed your health issues you could sit down and have a cup of coffee too.

I'll even change that offer to a glass of water, I'm assuming that won't set your heart off or make your head shake?

If you don't want to do that then I'll just assume that you want to sit in front of your computer spewing this or that out, but aren't willing to sit down face to face and say the same thing.

I'm willing to do it, the question is are you??

I'm doing my best to get it off of bowsite and to a place where we can sit down face to face over a medically safe beverage and discuss it.

Sabol, I will admit I can be stubborn. But I also have an open mind and am open to change. That is why I start debates on bowsite all the time. I like to hear all the opinions, and yes my mind has been changed in the past.

If I were just a closed mind stubborn it's my way or the highway don't think out of the box old grumpy fart, then why would I start debates, form opinion polls, and ask the hard questions on here that I have done over the years??

I understand your logic, I just think you're using flawed logic to reach your conclusion.

Glad you think that statement is open minded and not personal...Ima leave you with a response to this comment then be done with this site

Yes I said that, and I stand behind it. There is a difference between calling a class of people lazy for not wanting to put forth the time nor effort to learn something than bringing up a single individuals health problems. I'm sorry you don't understand that.

Thanks for sharing that picture. It brings back memories. That was the picture on the Bowhunters Voice when I got the Bowhunter of the Year award for working with the DNR and Legislature to enact the enhanced penalties for the illegal killing and poaching of trophy white tail deer in WV. A law that has rather severe financial consequences for stealing game from the legal law-abiding hunters of WV., as well as add tens of thousands of dollars to the DNR to help run their programs that benefit all citizens of WV.

I guess I had given you more credit over the years for your character than I should have. Instead of meeting man to man over coffee to discuss our differences you have decided to sit in front of a computer and be immature about it. In fact, I don't blame you. I think if I were in your position I wouldn't have the testicles to do it either.

LOL, that picture is kinda funny.

I guess I didn't realize how mad you got when I turned down your request to hunt my farm.

In case I don't talk to you again, good luck hunting this year and good health to you and your family. Get that a-fib checked out, it could cause a stroke or even kill you.

Smokey

#WWFBD

Yes.... and you're most likely like me. Still look fat in a loose fitting black suit. Reason... because I'm fat.

See how simple-mindedness has an answer for everything?

I look fat because I am fat.

And get on with the issues at hand...

In the past I have been 100% against crossbows but if it going to happen it should have its own season and not be lumped into bow season so the DNR and Commissioners can regulate season length in response to harvest. The more regulatory control they have the better they can control the harvest to meet management objectives.

I know there has been a lot of speculation as to how it may or may not affect harvest. In reality, no one knows for sure. Every state is different based on population, percentage of hunters, age of hunters, etc. If there were an over harvest it would be preferable to have a mechanism to adjust the season if needed than to have no legal way to do that.

If there is an over harvest, with no way to adjust the specific crossbow season then the only alternative would be to shorten the entire season and/or reduce bag limits.

We have to remember this isn't the 90s anymore when it seemed we couldn't kill enough deer and dozens of counties were constantly above management objectives. Most counties are at at objective now, while a few are above, and some are below.

Back in the 60's WV gun season was a three day hunters choice. By the oppositions reasoning, the data proves the longbow, selfbow, and recurve is more deadly than the rifle used then because our bow harvest increased with the herd. Not hardly. What the data does say is the weapon used doesn't matter. It is the time afield and kill quotas that matter. I say that because in states like ours that hasn't allowed them with the growth of the herd, which increased harvest numbers across all seasons and weapons. We saw dramatic increases too while the herd was actually growing even when the compound and inline muzzleloaders came along.

So why the demand for the extra concurrent season? They will never out number vertical bows. As sabol pointed out, they only shift harvest data in states like ours. However, if the crossbow season is segregated and, the herd faces a huge die off from disease and needs a reduction in quotas or time afield allotted, guess who is going to get the biggest cut in their season? It isn't going to be the far out numbered crossbow hunters that we put into a separate season. Once in, they will get fair representation. God Bless

With no admition of the realities of the crossbow's effect and capabilities, it is unrealistic to think that crossbows should be handled differently. Meaning, they are some kind of superior weapon. Easier and superior are not the same. I'll argue easier with anyone because I don't buy it for everyone or even the majority. Real life result have already proved they aren't as lethal as the compound so that debate isn't really arguable.

And, I personally believe that real life will dictate that if the dreaded example I did use as of why they shouldn't have a separate season were to ever come to tuition, they will get equal representation. We will all lose time regardless of whether they are considered a different season. Not just crossbow guys. Just my opinion. Maybe I'm wrong but, I don't think so and in this example, no one has the facts to say with certainty which way it will be handled.

I don't particularly like them or the thought of them. But, they have proven to cause no harm to traditional bow seasons. And more bow hunters mean better representation. Meaning more young to be hunters getting opportunity sooner and the older having the opportunity to hunt longer in some instances. Not all but some. I'm sure we will pick up a few more bowhunter's initially but, the non-dedicated will weed out within a few years. Non-dedicated hunters kill few deer with any weapon. Much less a short range one. So, I see no reason to limit the small percentage of people who will employ them due to the limitations they present. And if I'm wrong, and say 50% of hunters switches over to them, which they haven't anywhere else, it won't increase harvest numbers eitherway. They are no match for a compound bow in any category. Just sayin... God Bless

From an article called The Crossbow Effect by PJ Reilly. He states that more people have joined into the archery ranks since the crossbow inclusion into PA bow season, while overall hunter participation has decline. He wrote that what has happen is that gun hunters dropped hunting with gun and started hunting with crossbow. He also said that the PA game commission is concern about the increase archery kill. And further says that PA game biologist have said that they are worried about the increased archery buck kill and that if it continues they will be looking at reducing the season for ALL BOWHUNTERS!

Now lets move to Ohio - An article by Dave Goloweski of the Columbus Dispatch about Deer Gun kill numbers down: here's a quote Since those times, particular after hunters embraced crossbows, the archery kill has increased dramatically. A year ago bow harvest past the gun -week total for the first time.

He also states that there are 110,000 crossbow hunters and about 75000 to 95000 vertical bowhunters and that crossbows hunters harvest more deer during archery season than those hunters using a vertical bow. So crossbow hunters make up the majority of bow season but you two say oh no it will just get a few and have no dramatic effect! Well I find it pretty darn dramatic that crossbows are the majority now! Plus adding almost 50,000 more deer kills to the season and you say it won't change anything?????

Another article for you: Called- Ohio's army of deer hunters search for success by D'Arcy Egan. Says Ohio's liberal crossbow hunting regulations have been so popular they've brought about RADICAL changes in how many deer are taken with a bow or gun. Also states that "Buoyed by crossbow hunting the last few decades, bowhunting success has soared from 10% in 1978 to about a 50-50 split of the total harvest!

And you want to tell me that including crossbows into bow season won't effect us all or make a difference! Again - I have no problem with an individual crossbow season but don't put them in bow season which WILL EFFECT ALL OF US!

How's that for " no impact" ??

Good thing that young man took a new state record Pope and Young buck down there this past fall. It may be the last one taken.

It's never a good thing when the Legislature starts trying to set season length or bag limits. It handcuffs the Biologists and Commissioners ability to make adjustments based on harvest, winter kill, disease, or whatever. They Biologists are hired and the Commissioners are appointed, and the public is allowed input on the final decision. Why cripple or take that ability away?

What if, ( and I know it would be all but impossible), but what if you were wrong?

Whoa!!!, I almost got hit by a lightening bolt. LOL

This is what debating and negotiations are about.

Over the last month or two I have had my mind changed from saying NO CROSSBOWS to saying ok, but let them be used but leave the season up to the DNR and Commissioners to set season based upon conditions and the ability to adjust if needed.

But I don't see any give and take from your side. It seems to be: ( We want all of bow season, to heck with any consequences. Trust me, there won't be any consequences ).

With all due respect, I'd still like to have the insurance policy.

Person B: looks ouside and sees the sky is blue and researches to find out the sky is blue in OH and PA also then posts: wait a minute, the sky looks blue to me and according to my research the sky is blue in OH and PA also.

Person A: posts this debate is over, you're just beating a dead horse.

It amazes me that when the hard questions start and the rubber meets the road some declare that the thread is over and we're just beating a dead horse.

Thus my question remains, why not have an insurance policy built into the season?

Would allow crossbows in big game firearms season and DNR Director would establish a separate season for the crossbow hunter.

Those with Class Y permits (should be disabled) can continue to use the crossbow during archery and firearms seasons.

This puts the crossbow where it should be (own season).

Greg, I'm not saying trust me. I'm saying trust the facts we do have. That is the difference. You want what you think. I want what can be reasonably expected by facts. You do the same on the buck harvest debates too. No attention to detail or realities best I can tell. Or, you posses the notion that you know better.

No harm meant, just the way it comes across when someone doesn't recognize or acknowledge realities in any situation. I can't fathom how any person could look at a situation that has been mimicked in other places, with very similar results at all places, and not admit we could expect the same if we as a state do it too. Human nature is the same. Always has been and always will be.

I'm done for now. Been another interesting and revealing debate. God Bless

What happens or dosen't happen in one state may or may not be an indicator of what will happen in another state, again due to the variables listed above. And for that reason I would feel better with some type of insurance policy so to speak, that may or may not ever be needed, than to not have one.

If there is flawed logic in that line if thinking, then I'm open to hear it.

It simply boils down to a disagreement in the effectiveness of the crossbow. The dynamics you speak of are not known to me. I see Human nature as the defining variable. And humans have been very predictable when it comes to this. Facts say that. Their effectiveness and/or lack of, isn't determined by the state in which they are hunting. They are what they are and, hunters will respond to them here, as they have else where. Exactly what could be so different here that would make it unpredictable isn't imaginable to me. However, the realities that do define the crossbow are, because of what we do know.

I respect your's and everyone's thought on this subject. But, I really can't allow myself to base my opinion on what I think unless I account for the realities in my thought process. And until the facts of this change, I stand where I stand. Just like you.

One thing I think we all will agree on is it be dang nice to see our law makers take a clean Sunday hunting bill to task like they have these back door attempts to please interests groups. God Bless feller's

Great post mountaineer

Gobbler, kudos to you for laughing and admitting that you have changed your mind slightly. Takes a man to state that.

Mountaineer. Look at VA archers to crossbows after three years. Also look at harvest numbers three years prior and three years post. I am interested in your take. Data is contradictory to what you are saying. Thanks

If you look at OH and PA numbers and the thoughts of their biologist it's the same as you say - they sort of go against what some of these other guys are saying.....

Paul Johansen, the DNR's assistant wildlife chief, said that isn't likely to happen.

"When you're talking reducing the number of deer, you're talking mainly about removing a certain percentage of females from the population," he said. "So far we have seen no significant impact in that regard from the use of crossbows."

The chief gripe DNR officials have with the high number of crossbow permits they've been required to issue is financial, not biological. Wildlife chief Taylor said it costs the agency $6 in staff time and materials to issue each permit.

--18,000 permits.

What do you guys think of that, and what are your opinions as to why she chose to turn her career in that direction?

I know that when I saw her perform New Year's Eve in NY on TV that night is was more pop. But I don't know if she would do that if she comes to WV to perform? Would Taylor tailor her music from state to state to play to the popularity in that specific state or would she just play the same thing in every state, even though she knows popular genres of music vary from state to state?

If I ever die at least I'll have enough money to enjoy myself.

Lonnie sneed always said he want my Marriah Chinook longbow if I died before him. I gave it to him a couple of years ago. He sold it

George Coleman told me I could have his Ole man Treestands if he died before me. Nice stands but I'll wait I hope another 30 years to collect. In the mean time George, take care of my stands