Bowsite.com

505 deer were tested in Iron cty but only 291 deer harvested/registered between bow, xgun and rifle season.

Looks like someone is Enron"ing" the books.

Thats 505 deer in total tested from 2002-2008. ;-)

Well.........it does not have that information on that link just released through 2015.

But either way that should be on there somewhere? Just my opinion. ;)

I am not a scientist but I am willing to be most of those positive tests are repeat customers trying to find out if they have a + deer or not in the hot zones.

Many believe this actually happened NW of Rochester Minnesota. An old doe that was supposedly shot there was tested positive for CWD. Many deer were slaughtered by DNR 'sharp shooters'. After about 4 years of unlimited doe tags, much longer seasons, and testing every deer that was killed in that area not one other deer showed up positive.

Some game farm elk in the area did test positive so that is another possible explanation.

One thing is for sure, it attracted a lot of money for the state to spend on testing for CWD, research, and collecting DNA samples from deer registered and tested.

No other problem even comes close by comparison ... #1 in Violations for decades... proves it is the poachers #1 tool..

Any politician supporting the risks it presents to our dismal deer herd that is already in dire straits in like 20 counties is not interested in the future of deer hunting at all and is simply looking for a few more votes to retain their seat.... nothing more....

X2

It's too bad everybody can't think "long term" and "big picture" rather than "instant gratification" and "more me now"...

public land should be just that public land, and baiting creates problems in many areas......

you have to think long term

Have mixed feelings, knowing that CWD is here to stay simply because it's in the soil and because deer numbers are so low already in much of the north. My opinion is more deer were saved from feeding than would have survived to spring '13 and spring '14 had they not been fed. I'm not advocating "emergency feeding," just don't feel mom and pop putting out some treats after the early bow and 9-day hunts are over is a bad thing. And please, no link to the "12 deer die from feeding" story. I get that it has to be done right.

I get what you are saying. But where does it stop, for "those folks"? IMO they are the types that will basically use any excuse to quit. I am also of the opinion that if it takes so little to make them quit, good riddance.

not all of the north is created equal, that is for sure, and even there, deer are in small pocket areas for various reasons........

so to rifle hunt the north now, its back to boot leather on the ground, and that is something a lot of hunters do not want to do.....

I understand the intention of baiting for deer, when it was first allowed. I have no problem for those older hunters, and those who for physical reasons, can not go all over the place,,,,,,,,,

yet baiting has turned into, 30 year olds, dumping large amounts of baits, via the ATV, in and all over the place,,,, I have seen this first hand......

I believe that this will be the year, that the fewest rifle licenses will be sold ever. the pressure in the north, will be little to none, so baiting may not have the affect it normally has....

think about it, baiting cost money, and time and travel and with a very small herd, a lot may not make the trip. again while snow goose hunting last week in south Dakota, we talked about this. another guy told me, a lot of hunters are going south to the central forest area, to hunt......

the only thing positive I can see, is that for those who truly hunt the north, you may have a lot of area to yourself, and with less baits, deer will be moving a lot more.......

this is the time to scout, and build them ground blinds etc, there are still a lot of nice bucks in the north, ,,,,,,,,,,,,,, there just tougher to hunt

Deer "move" - bait or no bait. The argument that it curtails deer movement is nothing but pure bunk. The thought of a deer walking into a bait site, eating and then walking off and laying down is unrealistic and false.

Deer are "browsers", they need many things in their diet each day to sustain life. The deer's body knows that and continues to push the animals to feed appropriately. Thus, the need to travel.

Nocturnal deer - Last fall I posted a number of deer pictures from trail cameras that clearly showed daytime deer movement at/around bait sites.

It crates privatization of public land.

I'm sure it does, but I have not handled one such issue in my 34 years on the job. I have never had it happen to me either. Trust me I am not stupid enough to think it doesn't exist..I'm sure it does. Right along with permanent duck blinds on State lands and tree stands placed on property lines.

It generates nose to nose contact. Yes, in some cases it does.

Deer are very social animals and nose to nose and grooming each other takes place bait or no bait and even within "food" plots!

I bait! Not all the time, but I do!

I will go toe to toe with anyone on this site at matching hunting ability - am I the "best" hunter? Sadly no I am not - but I hold my own bait or no bait! Much like the people I know that bait from time too time.

Much of that is based upon the self righteous "If you don't hunt like me you're crap" mind set yahoos!

From Mid October till December I do not place bait!

Nothing beats a grunt call and a set of the bones that time of the year!

Bloodtrail I am sure you are a fine hunter,once upon a time I was as good as any.not anymore as age has slowed me down. 2 Gallons?

No bucket corn = hunting

Killed many deer munching on kernel poured to the ground in my past with the compound.

Found it to be more gratifying not to.

Agreed.

Pasq/Lucky/Happy -Good for you boys! Couldn't be happier for you!

Remember the mind set - if we don't hunt just like you - it's still legal hunting not just not meeting your approval and that's OK for you.

Many enjoy It however and it does not make them any less of a person or a hunter as long as it's legal.

No easy killing on deer over bait - most crapping razor blades on high alert and to draw a bow and get a shot is anything but easy for many!

RJN - pay attention man - I bait up to about mid-October as well. So perhaps "not that much different" man!

That doesn't mean it's ethical with me, but I won't push my ethics onto anyone.

Do I agree with no baiting/feeding? No. Look at all the scientific evidence form the western states.

If feeding the deer was such a bad thing why would the Colorado Division of Wildlife do feed drops throughout the winter if they were worried about nose to nose contact?

Just saying..............

That's not necessarily true in my opinion. I've hunting over bait more times than I care to admit to but take far more pride in kills not over bait. I also disagree with killing over bait being difficult. That may be true with does with fawns, but when multiple does come in, it is just a matter of waiting for the right angle and they will eventually give it. I'm never seen a buck older than 2.5 come into bait personally but the young ones seem to come and stay and are easy pickings too. Lots of bait is used in the camp where I've been hunting for people to get their meat deer. It really is easy pickings for does and immature bucks.

I too could care less what people do in regard to baiting if it is legal. I prefer not to bait but really disagree when people say shooting deer over bait is difficult. It is shooting fish in a barrel. A lone doe at bait is an exception as is a doe letting her fawn(s) eat. I've been there and done that.

Happy Easter everyone! What a Blessed Day it is!

One one is there for the experience, the other for instant gratification.

Simple, the political reality of voter ingnorance is more important than scientific facts ... same as in Madison. ;-)

I guess I'm not totally on target with deer are crapping razor blade - most likely first year deer are much calmer and come in easier.

When you have 5 -6 deer or even 2-3...you have just that many more eyes you have to deal with to get that bow up, drawn and shot before anyone deer picks you off.

I guess I'm not totally on target with deer are crapping razor blade - most likely first year deer are much calmer and come in easier.

When you have 5 -6 deer or even 2-3...you have just that many more eyes you have to deal with to get that bow up, drawn and shot before anyone deer picks you off.

Again, not knocking anyone. I've done this and it is not the same as killing one without bait. I'd personally have no issue at all if it was made illegal statewide but while legal, have at it.

No Gilletes by the kernals where I was. Maybe a few dirt digger thunderheads that missed their mark! My hopes are to see the piles go away but...

What was the one year they stopped corn piles? 2001????What was the reasons they stopped it and what was the reasons it returned? My guesses and I mean guesses are people greased their shorts in anger when it was done away with???

A little deceiving but that is a crushed up pumpkin and some apples cut up. It doesn't last long. They come in droves.

"Personal choice and gratification are different to different people. "

Yep, I agree with that 100%.

The mineral/salt block counts as part of your 2 gallons. What is hanging over the bait pile, a light?

No baiting or dogging bear!!!

What a dumb overall thread.

Well, first off, not my bait pile. But I will admit that I did not know mineral blocks count towards the allowable bait. If that is the case, it seems that one can only do one or the other as a mineral block seams to be bigger than 2 gallons on it's own.

What is above is an inoperative auto feeder. I have never seen it in use in the 8 years I hunted that land. BTW, this is in the UP where feeders are legal.

Maybe you need to look up the definition of "conditioned response" in the dictionary and see if it mentions hunting?

Were you going to ask Tracker (another new name) to share a hunt with you? I am currently a guest hunter on property where some hunt with piled corn and cross bows but dont care to hunt their style. Snobbish hmmm I dont think so. I hunt with KOM and a Robertson snobbish? I do use rattle bag and horns but bet I dont get nearly the same amount of deer coming to them as a pile of corn. Snobbish? Berate and insult?? hmmm I dont see it but...

In Pasquinells world the bucket corn = easy killing

In Pasquinells world the No bucket corn = Hunting

All better now? O -P -I -N -O -N can still be said cant they?

I just try to get deeper in the woods and hope for a sighting or two.

I'm not making any judgements or comments about one hunter being "better" than another based on whether they bait or not and I'm not berating or demeaning either but I wanted to address a couple of the comments you made.

I'm not really sure how you can compare deer baiting to using rattling antlers. Deer baiting is all about conditioning deer to come to the same spot and if you kept rattling from the same spot over and over you would have an opposite affect on the deer. I don't think a 2-gallon pile of rattling antlers on the ground is going to condition the deer to come to the same spot either. Of course maybe if it was abused like a lot of baiters do and a 50 or 100 pound sack was used it would work better ;^)

You also mentioned fishing so I'm guessing that you're comparing using bait for fish to using bait for deer. It's interesting that it's illegal to use a fish feeder to condition fish to come to the same spot over and over. I wonder why that is...?

You can't leave your fishing bait out 24/7 without it being attended and you have to reel it in when you leave. I have no problem with hunters using bait I would just prefer that they reel it in and take it home with them just like fisherman have to. And just like the guys that use rattling antlers, grunt calls, decoys, etc. They take them with them when they leave. Scents might be a little different but they don't have nearly the conditioning factor as a corn pile and really don't work that well anyway.

The comparison of a bait pile to food plots may not be that great of a comparison either. Many who plant food plots do so as part of an overall habitat improvement plan for their property such as timber management to improve browse and bedding cover, etc. The goal is to improve habitat for deer and other animals to make the property attractive to those animals so they not only feed there but also live, bed, breed, give birth, etc. on the property.

In my experience most who bait care little or nothing about habitat improvement. Sometimes the property may be unsuitable or very marginal habitat for deer and the only reason the deer are even there is because of the corn pile.

I don't think every person who owns property should feel entitled to have deer on their property just because they own a chunk of land. If the property is poor habitat and the landowner has done nothing to improve it I don't think that landowner is "entitled" to have deer on their property and I don't think dumping a pile of corn should be a quick fix for instant gratification. If you want deer on your property you should either buy property that is good habitat or improve the habitat you have.

The same goes for the public land hunter. A hunter should learn something about their quarry and about the land they are hunting. Dumping a pile of corn shouldn't be a quick fix or substitute for hunting savvy or woodsmanship. And a hunter should not have the right to claim a chunk of public land or the deer that live their just because they have established a bait pile and conditioned the deer to feed there. In my experience that happens all too often.

Oh and by the way, I wouldn't get too excited about the NRA backing this law change... if you remember correctly they strongly supported crossbows sharing the archery season...

Just my opinions...flame away if you feel the need.

Make my day at the expense of the public land hunters!

Nice to see my ole' friend Cheesehead Mike back once again! "Hey Mike" And yes "I feel the need" But that shouldn't surprise you given our long lasting relationship! :^)

"I have no problem with hunters using bait" I almost fell out of my chair!

Cheesehead - how about those guys that "condition" deer on mock scrapes to come to the same spot over and over? Or doesn't that count because not many deer are involved or/and because as a deer expert "scents don't really work that well anyway." Tell that to a close friend who smoked a 140 class 8 point on a scent drag that he drug past his stand several years ago.

"Of course maybe if it was abused like a lot of baiters do and a 50 or 100 pound sack was used it would work better ;^)"

Lets back that up with some statistics Mike! Just how many people bait in Wisconsin and just how many abuse the privilege? Just how many are "a lot" "of baiters" The 50# the 100#'s you have some statistics Mike...I didn't think so!

Mike says: "In my experience most who bait care little or nothing about habitat improvement."

Really? How many people is that Mike? 4..5...6, maybe 10? Or do you know a 100 baiters Mike?

So what does that mean? As a baiter I am less likely to care little about habitat improvement?"

Let me know about those mock scrapes Mike - are ya upset with them as well? One more legal means of "baiting" or "attracting" deer that should be illegal Mike? Really?

And yes, Pasq - opinions can still be said even when there are far-fetched and as wrong as some (Uhm Uhm)!

And all from the "If you don't hunt like me your gutter slim" crowd.

Are there violations BigWoods - you bet, just like "failure to display back tag", "Shooting across a highway" and "failure to validate carcass tag" So what is your point? There is not one facet of deer hunting both bow/crossbow or rifle that doesn't have a violation(s) each year!

I guess I'm "lazy" as well which is a hinge point for anti-baiters as they like to call names and make assumptions!

Anytime you want to come out and fly my hawks with me...we'll see who is lazy!

You superbly identify as the "hunt like me" kinda guy with such a post!

So lets make everything illegal, because some jackass violates the law! Makes perfect sense to me!

"They need the bait or they have no chance of filling a tag" Really? I'll go toe to toe with you any day my friend. Of all the bucks I have shot....I shot only one over bait - fact! And there has been quite a few.

It's legal - let people hunt the way they want. Pretty simple stuff.

WI is littered with crappy bowlers that need to rent their shoes and use a house Ball as well as their bumpers to hit the pins.

ya.. take away the bumpers and they can't score...so they just quit...Hmm??

Get rid of the bumpers and let's see who really can bowl... or are they satisfied with posting and posing as a bowler.

LOL... Way funny

That's spot on Retro

Take baiting of Bear away and WI will be over run with Bear in just a few years...not the case with deer..the herd will be managed without it...

Taking baiting out of deer hunting does not mean the herd will explode... or over run its habitat... it will however do wonders for hunter division that practice imposes

calling people names and such is so juvenile "what are we ten years old"

as long as it is legal, you are free to practice baiting.

many of you forget in was the early 80's when the baiting issue came up, due to the threat, of losing it for bear hunting. an accepted practice for bear, due to the environment of this state, to save one, they opened it up for deer....

I remember when a salt block was illegal.....

that being said, I see two things in the thread. many who bait, really at times, deny the abuse of the practice, that exists on public land,,, and no the wardens have no time to come to every complaint, their already to thin, and to restricted on mileage....

Cheesehead - I agree with his stance on food plots on private land. those who do food plots for the most part, are doing so to improve property as a whole, and have no problem with it....

The reason I am not a big fan, on how our deer management is going, is because we are relying too much on "political science" and not on wildlife science, to manage the herd.

The reason I am not a fan of baiting is because I do not think it is good for the deer in the long run. I have spoken to a few wildlife biologist, have not found one, that supports the practice, but politics allow it...........

However, respect your fellow hunter. we all love to deer hunt, in our own ways.

what we should all be concerned about is, lets be concerned on what is best for the deer herd, and not just each of us, as individuals..........

The thought of someone having an advantage - be it a real or made up advantage....ticks off a good number of people - "Hey - he's got one up on me that dirty baiting SOB." "He has an unfair advantage" "That sucks". Whether true or imagined, it tends to piss some folks off.

There are others that just enjoy looking down their long nose at others. Look how "lazy", their just "shooters", their not "real" hunters. When it's really far from the truth.

Truth be told...it is simply a way some folks choose to hunt. Simply that!

Do some violate the rules. You bet they do.

But as a society we like to generalize when it comes to people. We really like to do that when we have hatred or displeasure for a group.

Because a number of people are caught doing something "Hell their all doing it" mentality - couldn't be further from the truth.

Just like our PETA friends. "They are ALL bloodthirsty killers." "They ALL kill deer from cars and run them down with ATV's" "They murder deer - murderers"

When people are opposed to something they see it in a different light than for what it actually is and often really is.

It would be interesting to know that to those opposed how many (other than Pasq) have actually baited for a season to see what it really is like - I suspect very few have. Some have beliefs of baiting spawned by those opposed who conjure up horror stories. Some have real horror stories that actually happened that muddles the actual truth - you don't know what is true, what is not! A friend of a friend says that his brother's brother-in-law said...."

I don't say you have to "like" baiting. You don't even have to "do" baiting - but for those of us that do on occasion, let it be - stop the name calling - the suggestions that we are not as "good" of hunters as you or not hunters at all and simply "shooters".

It's childish and more importantly - not only inaccurate but plain wrong!

To some, baiting is fun and recreational as a form of putting some meat in the freezer. To others they like to watch what all is attracted to a bait site. For whatever reason they do it, it's legal and they should be left alone to enjoy their sport of hunting - just like anyone who does deer drives, uses scents and cameras to name a few.

While I agree with that comment, there is an assumption in it that I am leery of. Who are the "wildlife" scientists and what is their perspective? Are they pro-hunting, are they anti-hunting?

Also, we need to remember that the DNR is charged with managing wildlife for all people of the state, not simply for hunters. That adds much to the mix. Knowing how vocal some anti-hunters, naturalists, animal rights people and others can be, I am of the opinion that hunters need to lobby for what they want without "giving" anything to the others. Those "others" will be there fighting for themselves. Like it or not, it is how the system is set up. In a perfect world I'd support keeping politicians out of it but what we live in is far from a perfect world. We did not create the system but we need to function within it.

We have dogs that can do that, just ask Steve White - he'll tell ya all about his dogs and how successful they are at control bear populations.

Be careful what you ask for!

So yes.. Mr.White and his hounds will still have success reduced with no bear baiting ...

And if you want to equate bear baiting and deer baiting.. if you recall... there are a limited number of tags awarded...if you agree the 2 animals are equal as far as baiting.... then you must also be in favor of applications for deer tags to bait deer..

LOL.. Bear hunters have limited the hunters for their benefit..At one time we all could kill a bear with our bow tag...bear hunters stole that tag from bowhunters and made it into a draw to limit the kill and hunters doing it so they could have more bear to chase around with dogs as Bowhunters were supposedly killing to many...LOL..they stole that from bowhunters..

Why are there limited numbers of Bear tags???

Why aren't there limited numbers of deer tags??

Apples and oranges

There is a vast cross-section of people on this site with a very wide variety of experiences and opinions. I know you like to play the tough-guy bully cop who believes everything you say is right just because you said it but that doesn’t get you too far here. I have opinions based on many years of personal experiences and I don’t need to have mathematical statistics for every statement or opinion. People that agree with you don’t need statistics but you think you can discredit everything I say just because I don’t include a mathematical statistic along with every statement. That’s ridiculous and appears like a desperate attempt, but I’m sorry it just makes you look foolish and hurts your credibility.

Obviously you have an axe to grind with me and that may be clouding your judgment. If you’re going to argue with my statements it’s too bad that you can’t at least make a little sense. When did I ever say that I was against everything used to attract deer…? And seriously, you’re going to compare baiting to mock scrapes…? I was going to explain the difference but I haven’t put the mathematical statistics together yet…

So you know a guy who “drug” (btw its “dragged”) scent past his stand and killed a buck several years ago… hmmm, I wonder what the statistics are on that hearsay evidence… I say knock yourself out; if mock scrapes and scent “drug” past your stand makes you a better hunter and allows you to kill a big buck once every several years have at it…

The first comment you ever made to me back a few years ago when you first appeared on Bowsite was to criticize a statement I made and say something to the effect that based on my lack of trophy photos I don’t know enough to make statements or offer advice. For some reason you felt the need to attack me right out of the gate and that has never changed. I’m not sure what your issue is but I guess it’s your problem.

I’ve been on this site since ’99 and have had 100’s of great interactions with numerous people and made friends all over the country. We have exchanged information and shared friendships and the list of positive interactions is too lengthy to list, from helping one of the executives at Bowsite with a land surveying problem, to helping a Bowsite acquaintance become a licensed pilot, to sharing elk hunting maps, information and advice, to providing a former Bowsite sponsor with an idea that generated thousands of dollars of income for him…you have no idea. To refer to “our long lasting relationship” is a joke, I have dog turds in my yard that have been around longer…

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Chronic Wasting Disease Prevalence. Chronic Wasting Disease Prevalence.

Patrick Durkin, the Waupaca-based outdoor writer, had some fun with a recent state Department of Natural Resources press release regarding chronic wasting disease.

The release documenting the unmitigated spread of the always-fatal brain disease among deer, was titled: “Disease sampling results provide current snapshot of CWD in Wisconsin.” Durkin, in a column, jokingly suggested a comparable headline for a report on the sinking Titanic: “Damage-control party assesses condition of ship’s hull.”

Though fewer deer are being tested, the incidence of the disease is up. In the 2014 season, which ended March 31, more than 6 percent of the roughly 5,400 deer tested were positive, a DNR tally shows. That’s an all-time high disease rate; as recently as 2008, it was below 2 percent.

More alarming still, the disease rate among adult male deer has reached 40 percent in north-central Iowa County and around 25 percent in two other sectors. And CWD is no longer found only in southern Wisconsin.

Tami Ryan, the DNR’s wildlife health section chief, calls these numbers “not a good news scenario” but also not unexpected, given that the state is no longer attempting to manage the disease but is instead just monitoring its distribution and prevalence. Earlier attempts to employ more aggressive strategies were abandoned amid intense public opposition.

Now, 13 years after CWD was first discovered in Wisconsin, Ryan says many hunters “just want things to go back to normal.”

That’s not likely to happen. A far more plausible scenario is that the disease will continue to spread, infecting and killing deer, until the number of animals available for hunters is seriously depleted. And then, look out.

“The research we’ve done shows the disease is in an accelerating pace,” says Mike Samuel, a UW-Madison associate professor of wildlife ecology who studies CWD. “It’s going to continue to rise at a rapid pace and it’s going to continue to spread until the people decide we’ve had enough.”

And while Samuel sees no way to get rid of CWD, using currently available strategies, he thinks it can be controlled through management practices. He suggests killing more bucks, among whom the infection rate is highest, perhaps by opening the gun hunting season earlier, when deer rut (mate).

But this, Samuel notes, is when bow hunters do their thing, and they are a powerful lobby group. Past CWD-eradication strategies seen as detrimental to herd size drew opposition from hunters and were axed by lawmakers and Gov. Scott Walker. And Walker’s so-called “deer czar” recommended a more passive approach to CWD.

“We have a lot of ways to manage the disease that are politically unpopular,” Samuel says.

Michael Hansen, a senior staff scientist with the national Consumers Union who has long tracked the spread of CWD and related diseases, is appalled by what’s happening in Wisconsin.

“That’s horrendous news,” he says of the most recent numbers. “Do they not care about an epidemic that is sweeping the state? The science doesn’t matter to them?”

Hansen says the “proper response is to try and get rid of the epidemic, rather than just give up and let it sweep through.” Otherwise, it’s only a matter of time before “you’ve got such high rates that populations begin to crash.”

Dave Clausen, a veterinarian who formerly served on the state’s Natural Resources Board, shares this concern. “The current policy is inconsistent with a long-term healthy deer herd,” he says, diplomatically. What is happening now is exactly what he warned the DNR two years ago would happen, absent an aggressive response: “CWD will continue to spread across the state and will increase in prevalence where it is established.”

Now retired, Clausen calls the state’s willingness to essentially let this happen “a political decision, not a scientific one.” If the scientists are right, and Wisconsin’s deer hunt is devastated, will politicians get the blame?

Bill Lueders is the Money and Politics Project director at the Wisconsin Center for Investigative Journalism (www.WisconsinWatch.org). The Center produces the project in partnership with MapLight. The Center collaborates with Wisconsin Public Radio, Wisconsin Public Television, other news media and the UW-Madison School of Journalism and Mass Communication. All works created, published, posted or disseminated by the Center do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of UW-Madison or any of its affiliates.

http://urbanmilwaukee.com/2015/04/02...hunting-lobby/

Wednesday, March 04, 2015"

That's BS and baiting is just another scapegoat. Society has sadly become "all about me". Do it my way or you and whatever you think are wrong. Just look at the constant bickering here. Vertical vs. horizontal bows. Youth hunts. Holiday hunts. Public vs. Private land. Food plots vs. baiting. Permanant blinds vs. portable. Antler restrictions. Deer and impacts to forests. The list goes on and on.

Don't kid yourself into thinking that if baiting is either all out banned or all out allowed that will do ANYTHING at all to "improve hunter division". Start respecting one another as hunters regardless of how we choose to legally do it is what is needed to start fixing divisions. Blaming bait or anything else does nothing but drive wedges between hunters.

Who? The ones that have spent millions of dollars (that could and should have been spent on other conservation efforts) to not come up with a cure, not be able to prove ever, even one time, that it can be passed to humans, that can't definatively say how or when or where it arrived, that suggested complete eradication of deer is the answer...those scientists? Baiting ban to prevent the spread? How has that worked in the areas where CWD has been found?

And nobody ever said that deer don't naturally have nose to nose contact. However, baiting creates a situation that increases nose to nose contact and sharing of saliva and therefore may lead to increased spread of CWD.

Isn't that just logical?

If it is known that a certain behavior (nose to nose contact) can lead to the spread of a disease that may wipe out the entire deer herd why would anybody continue to practice and keep legal a practice (baiting) that promotes that behavior?

All that being said...

Since I've been told I have to use statistics I will state that 100% of the issues I have had with bait and the practice of baiting are because of other factors and have had 0% to do with CWD.

None of this has anything to do with thinking that one type of hunter is superior to any other type of hunter.

Should those all be prohibited by law?

"I know you like to play the tough-guy bully cop who believes everything you say is right just because you said it but that doesn’t get you too far here"

Well Mike, I guess I could say the same about you... minus of course the name calling and belittling tactics you implore! Could I call you the "tough guy bully surveyor"? I could, but wouldn't do that! Not that I don't believe it, but it's inappropriate and childish.

I may be wrong Mike but I don't believe I ever called you any names before other than a deer expert. If I did I apologize. I think we are above that and besides you know absolutely nothing about my law enforcement career or what I do - zero!

Statics Mike - Its important to know where you get your numbers Mike like "most who bait" or "Of course maybe if it was abused like a lot of baiters do." Ya like to throw those statements out there with nothing to back them up outside your good looks!

I asked you based upon your statement -"In my experience most who bait care little or nothing about habitat improvement." How many is that? You didn't answer.

Really Mike? - You started the scents vs. bait issue - I simply responded to it.

Mike sez: "Scents might be a little different but they don't have nearly the conditioning factor as a corn pile and really don't work that well anyway"

Actually Mike - your math is off. I've been on Bowsite 8 years, not a few years ago.

Mike - a little less than heart-warming, but I am taken with the fact that you remember our first encounter on Bowsite. I don't, but if that's what it was - OK!

Truth be told Mike, the only "problem" "issue" I have is the inaccurate stuff you blatantly post in reference to baiting. I enjoyed reading about you and Lester chasing elk. That was pretty neat! We even argued about that if I remember, said I couldn't keep up with you! How is Les?

Before I forget - let me say "Thanks" for the spelling error you pointed out for everyone to see. And then use it in a sentence - very nice Mike! I type over 400 words, make a mistake and you bandwagon it - speaks volumes Mike - you can do so much better!

Nice to hear about your connections to Bowsite executives and sponsors and the surveying you did. The thousands of dollars you made for the guy - nice, hope he remembered you at Christmas time!

Got to tell ya Mike - I'd much hear ya answer some of the questions I asked of you originally, because to date - you haven't answered anything really!

As far as the dog turds in your yard Mike - I'd get those cleaned up as quickly as possible, because as many of us know...You have a habit of "stepping in it" :^)

Good Hunting Mike!

davebow,

"Based on all prior treads (are those tire treads?), he is in a different world all his own and he won't let reality cloud his thinking"

Seriously, you are aware of all of my prior threads...? And reality clouds my thinking...? Talk about cloudy thinking, just because you and I don't agree on the topic of baiting you pass judgement on all of my other threads. There are many out there who would disagree with you. The reality of it is that these foolish bickering threads are an exception to the rule for most of my posts on this site. These threads are the reason a lot of people who used to be on the WI forum avoid it.

And in regard to CWD and baiting, I don't base my opinion on the science or the lack thereof surrounding CWD, I've had a lifetime of bad experiences with baiting that had nothing to do with CWD.

Bloodtrail,

You've done plenty of name calling in the past and the last time we interacted you said something to the effect that you know what kind of guy I am and that I'm selfish and don't care about anybody but myself. I stopped responding to you after that and I'm not sure why I let you lure me in again. You have no idea about the kids I have mentored or the help I have provided to anybody but you're awful quick to jump to conclusions just because we have some fundamental differences.

The comment about you not being able to keep up with us was in response to your big talk about being President of Idaho and not letting me or Les in. If you can't take it, don't dish it out.

As far as your questions go, I stated my opinions based on my experience and I have no obligation to give into your interrogation. Based on the actions of MOST baiters that I have encountered MOST of them appear to have very little interest in improving habitat.

You say that the stuff I post on baiting is inaccurate but it is my real-life actual experience and everytime I share a real-life experience about baiting you call me a liar because it goes against your agenda. Tell me this; why would I make up stuff about baiting and baiters? I have enough things to do without making up stuff about baiting. Why would I even care if these things I say aren't true?

In one of your posts above you wrote this:

"Some have real horror stories that actually happened that muddles the actual truth - you don't know what is true, what is not!"

Thats what I have, "real horror stories that actually happened". But now you're telling me that those actual horror stories just muddled the truth and they weren't really the truth. So when something bad happens surrounding baiting it's not really the truth only the good things are the truth....? Explain that one to me because I'm having a hard time grasping it. And maybe you want to explain it to my at the time 12 year old step-son who had his hunt ruined when he was harassed by a gun packing baiter who said there would be war if we hunted within a half mile of his bait on public land. And what's worse the baiter had his son with teaching him how it's done so he can pass the harassment on from generation to generation.

And I didn't start the discussion on scents vs. bait, davebow did and I just responded to it.

Yes, my Bowsite connections do remember me on the holidays... thank you.

Attached is a photo of one of those habitat improvement bait sites.

Oh and you're right... I need to clean up those turds because I don't like what they remind me of...

You seem to have a great memory when it comes to our past posts. Nice to be remembered! But I don't share your unique recall skills I guess. President of Idaho? I may have said that "tongue in cheek" Mike - and yes, I can take it as I do hand it out on occasion! I really don't think Idaho has a President - perhaps a Governor...so if I said it, I was funning you ole' boy! Hey, Ya never let me know how Les is doing.....

Gotta say I was surprised you saved the time you and your step-son encountered the gun toting baiter. There was a time that was your "lead" story on the great bait debate! Like I've said before I'm sorry for your encounter, but it's the exception and not the rule. For you it doesn't make it any less unnerving, but don't judge baiters over one jerk! I don't remember...did you get a plate number or back tag number and report that incident to the County Sheriff's Office?

I've brought to your attention many different statements you've made and you choose to talk around them and not answer....referring to them as an interrogation. Really?

I'm not quite sure you really know what an interrogation is Mike, because I'm certainly not interrogating you. Just asking questions based on claims you keep making. Look at it like an interview Mike, may be a little better to digest. Or not.

I'm just asking for an explanation to your many statements regarding issuing of baiting. Apparently you have none or your not going to try to explain yourself - that's OK Mike.

To answer one of your questions Mike "Why would I make stuff up about baiters".

Gee I don't know Mike, but maybe because you have a vile distaste for them? You've made no secret of that Mike.

To explain it once again Mike - I said that some folks invent stories of baiters who miss-behave while others have actual stories (horror) stories. The truth gets "muddled" and it hard to determine what is truth and what has been invented to support some ones view.

As far as the bait/scents - you made a comment - I countered it. What about all those "mock scrapes" out there - they cause deer to congregate.

As far as your "habitat improvement" photo's - no different than what I've seen done by any number of bear baiters. But that's different right?

As far as the "turds" Mike, don't quit your day job!

Time to move on -it's old and tired and truthfully lost it's comedic value sometime ago.

And now that ya mention it I think I did refer to you as a selfish individual. Self serving perhaps as well. If are those are names rather than a condition of one's personality - I apologize to you Mike.

I think your a show boat kind of guy Mike, like your 300 game picture above! Quite an achievement! Yet, only a small piece of the puzzle.

Good Hunting!

You also said "Anytime you want to come out and fly my hawks with me...we'll see who is lazy!"

Do you also have a sefish nature then by stating "my hawks"??

You rip on me because I am not for the youth hunt. You have said everything from - whats a matter?? Afraid they will kill "Your" deer Pasq?? and "what have you got against kids hunting and carrying on the tradition Pasq." how about "Sounds like you are a bit selfish Pasq...your even starting to sound PETA like."

It has nothing to do with any of the garbage you have stated but your ego gets in the way and think that when E F Bloodtrail speaks y'all better listen and adhere to it. You dont even know me and throw out assumptions. But it's ok cause You the Grand Pooba said it?

You also said- "The thought of someone having an advantage - be it a real or made up advantage....ticks off a good number of people - "Hey - he's got one up on me that dirty baiting SOB." "He has an unfair advantage" "That sucks". Whether true or imagined, it tends to piss some folks off."

I dont think anything like that at all and dont see hunting over a bucket of corn as an advantage. So I must not be part of that group you speak of? I dont know too many like you speak of either. But I too dont have math figures to back it up like you trashed Cheese for.

I stated- I hunt with a group that does just that, corn drop and using a crossbow! It's their land, do as you will but I see it as a negative not a positive. That is also where the youth hunt takes place every year. The kid is never in the woods all year and I mean at all. He comes up for one morning and sits in a heated condo over corn and kills the first 1 1/2 year old deer that walks in within 30 minutes he is back at the cabin and on his way home letting Grandpa cut it up.

Yea... not how I see a youth hunt but then again "he's killing my deer..."

Bloodtrail said - "Truth be told...it is simply a way some folks choose to hunt. Simply that!

Umm yea... trying not to disrespect but that is a complete Thank you Captain Obvious statement. No kidding? thats how they choose? I thought they were forced this whole time.

Anyone that goes against your way Bloodtrail, is ripped on and you do everything your accusing others of doing in a Bloodtrail politicly correct way. Sad part is you dont see it.

So, you musk ox continue to keep your rumps together protecting the pail of corn behind you that you "occasionly" use. I shot many deer over a corn pile with a compound and have chosen a recurve without corn for as long as I can still hunt with a bow. Snob arent I?

Pasq - Double "ouch"

You really spent some time on that post - nice job kiddo!

Do I have a selfish nature by saying "my" hawks - well...

There not your hawks, "Pasq" and they certainly don't belong to "Bigwoods" or "Antler Whore" or even "davebow". So I guess they would be mine.

Not because I own them but because I'm licensed to have them, care for them, feed them and hunt with them? Does that sound correct?

Truth be known, they actually belong to the State of Wisconsin.

However, it would have sounded kind of silly if I said "Do you want to come out and fly the State of Wisconsin's Hawks" now wouldn't have? That would have really confused Bigwoods and he's doing everything he can to keep up - let's not confuse the issue or Bigwoods.

By the way.... your little drawing there - was that watercolor and then you finished it in crayon? Had to show it too the wife and boy - she liked it! She asked who the artist was and I said my friend Pasq... She even said your artistic, no wait... or was that autistic..... oh well, anyway she liked it.

Ya know - between you and Cheesehead I am quite amazed - no really amazed...how you fella's can reach back in time (secret time capsule) and tell me what I posted to you months, maybe years ago - do you guys keep a file or how does that work? Wow! I guess it's nice to be remembered.

I wouldn't call it "rip on" Pasq - that's a little harsh.

However, I do feel it odd, that as an adult male you feel the need to slam an event(s) that many across the State have grown to love and look forward too every year, called the "Youth Hunt"!!

Much like Cheesehead, you take one poor experience and exsasterbate and apply that to every one in the State.

You have one kid you don't like hunting or the way he youth hunts for 30 minutes for whatever reason - now everyone across the whole State should suffer or be begrudged from that one experience of yours? Really?

As an adult, many folks, I suspect most here, think an adult should bend over backwards to support our youth. And at the very least if your not going to do one damn thing to support our youth, you can show "some" support.

As a hunter safety instructor, youth hunt mentor, "Birds of Prey" educator and a previous DARE officer, I get a little warm under the collar when folks like yourself speak poorly about our youth programs designed only to provide them with experiences that may enrich them not only as new hunters, but up and coming adults in our society.

Take a close look at Bow Crazy - he is out with those kids all the time. It's not about him at all - it's about the kids.

He sets a good example for all of us as we are the old guards, are days are numbered!! It's the new ones coming up that need the direction and help to carry on our traditions and beliefs so our kids, our Grandchildren have something left.

Take a good look at ole' Ruger 1022 - he's got the kids out all the time as well - he's a "professional kid guide"

I'm sorry Pasq - when I see or hear of some adult man speaking poorly of and with no support of the youth hunt and our kids - I'm going to sound off. Sorry if I hurt your feelings but it's the way I feel.

"Thank you Captain Obvious"....just like my friend Cheesehead - again with the names.

A classic anti-baiter approach when they become frustrated. Do I get a picture of a Captains hat next time? Let me know so I can post it on the refrigerator next to my "Grand Poobah" hat drawing.

You confuse the terminology of "ripped on" and "disagree with" Pasq.

Much like you and Cheesehead, I will not blindly follow along allowing you to "spoon feed" us your made up numbers, baseless - name calling comments and ill informed perspectives.

Got to like your analogy with the Musk Ox protecting the corn pile. Not only are you an artist but a comedic one at that! Good for you Pasq! The wife even chuckled at that one as well. You should be on the road my man!

Snob? No, your not a snob Pasq. Your being a little hard on yourself.

Your just an anti-kid kind of of guy who likes to call names and draw pictures in your free time.

Shoot Straight my friend!!

Thanks for the gesture, no problem...

Bloodtrail,

I didn’t come out of the womb disliking baiting or wake up one morning and all of a sudden decide I didn’t like it. I don’t judge somebody or think they are less of a person or less of a hunter because they choose to bait. I have some good friends who bait and/or who have baited in the past and some of them are very good hunters. I have also baited a little in the past myself. My initial impression might be that somebody doesn’t know much about hunting if they hunt over bait, but I’ll keep an open mind and ultimately base my opinion on their actions and behaviors. My comments surrounding baiting have always been directed toward the negative behaviors that go along with it, rather than a judgment that the baiter is any lessor of a person or hunter.

My opinion on baiting has developed based on my experiences with the behaviors exhibited by baiters during a lifetime of hunting mostly public land in northern WI.

The incident with my step-son was not an isolated incident; it was just one of many negative incidents and encounters with baiters.

And it’s not just me, everybody who hunts or who has hunted in our loose-knit group has had similar negative experiences and some have also had their kid’s hunts messed with by baiters. We’ve even had baiters come to the cabin picking fights.

Discussions with non-baiting hunters from other camps in the area show that they all experience the same harassment and territorial behaviors by baiters.

The undeniable fact is that myself, all these guys I know and many others who have posted on Bowsite have all experienced this behavior with baiters and they are not isolated incidents. This behavior is part of some baiter’s standard operating procedures which they pass down from generation to generation. I could go on and on describing multiple examples of harassment, spending hours typing and filling pages and pages on this thread but to what avail? I’m not going to convince you and you would just call me a liar anyway. Those of us who have lived it don’t need to convince you nor do we care what you believe because we know the truth and your opinion is unimportant.

The fact is that baiting, not by all but by many breeds negative, unsportsmanlike, harassing behavior and violations. Our fundamental difference is that you think my experiences are an exception to the rule whereas based on my observations your experiences are an exception to the rule.

You guys are trying to do damage control to protect your baiting privileges and to do that you try to discredit those of us who have experienced the negative effects of baiting. The tactics are so typical; you throw up smokescreens like food plots, calls, scents, mock scrapes, rattling, decoys, bear baiting, etc., etc., etc. and then you challenge us to provide statistics. But this discussion is about deer baiting; it’s not about any of those other things. Neither your smoke screens nor us not having an Excel spreadsheet documenting and categorizing our experiences negate our real-life experiences. It’s such a worn out and silly tactic and I have a hard time believing that you really think that deer congregate around a mock scrape the way they are conditioned by bait. Do you really believe your own argument? If you do, I encourage you to keep baiting because it appears that you need all the help you can get… Hey you said it, not me… And if what you say is true, I wonder why all those northern gas stations sell thousands of pounds of corn when all that’s needed is a mock scrape…?

The bottom line is that those of us who speak out against baiting are a thorn in your collective baiter sides and either you want to hide or avoid or can’t handle the truth. You would like to sweep us under the rug so nobody would hear about the negatives but it ain’t working. No matter how many nonsensical smoke screens or demands for statistics baiters throw out there you’re not going to change or make us forget our negative experiences or stop those negative experiences from happening.

Yeah, maybe posting the 300 game photo was bragging a little but somebody else brought up bowling and it seemed to fit the conversation. I guess I’m guilty as charged so go ahead and crucify me. Just remember that since you cast the first stone you better think twice before you write any more about your hawks, any of your other hobbies or activities or any of your other achievements. As far as showboating goes, this site is about sharing information and experiences and we’ve all participated in that to varying degrees. It says something about a guy when he has to find a way to criticize everything somebody says or does the way you criticized me and Les’s elk hunt and the way you find fault in everything I post, or the way you constantly try to push buttons, but that’s your deal so good luck with it…

Generations teaching generations poor conduct ...nuff said...

Nice post Cheesy Mike

All kidding aside - that is one of your best posts yet!

Here's were I am at on the issue - just so we are clear.

I bait part-time at best. The biggest bucks I've shot are all rattle and grunt call victims. I shoot primarily does over bait. So I would consider myself something less than a full blown bait hunter.

If baiting stopped tomorrow - I'd still kill nice bucks and I'd still kill does. Life would go on.

I've spent the better part of some 25 odd years patrolling a county that boasts more than 160,000 acres of public land open to hunting. This is a bait allowed County.

Never once have I experienced or do I personally know of anyone being harassed over a bait pile or privatization over bait placement - not one time Mike!

That's allot of hunting seasons Mike along with a lot of acreage. Our warden, who I work closely with also has never mentioned such an incident. He's wrote his share of baiting citations I will say. I say "Good for the warden."

In my many years of hunting in Bayfield, Jackson, Monroe and Lacrosse County as well as Waukesha, Racine, have I ever personally encountered a problem. Not once Mike.

Am I lucky - I guess I am!

So your going to have to excuse me when the flood gates open and anyone opposed to baiting has many horror stories to share. To me, that's suspicious. But I guess I'm just a suspicious person Mike.

Now, all that said, do I believe there are baiting related issues.

Absolutely there are.

No doubt about it. I'm not so naïve to think that just because it's not reported or happened to me personally it does not happen. I believe it does.

I just have a hard time believing it happens on the scale some would lead us (hunters) to believe.

Mike, I don't think you've ever answered any one of the many questions I posed to you. Here's one for you however as I asked before.

With people showing up at your camp and all the threats...has anyone along the way, thought to notify law enforcement?

While you have no experience at all baiting Mike, I find it equally suspicious in your claims in what baiting does or doesn't do.

Smoke screens? Like it makes deer nocturnal, changes deer movements and spreads disease and makes for "lazy" hunters - I've heard them all and none hold any water. Talk about smoke screens.

And yes, I do believe deer congregate around mock scrapes. I've seen the photo's from a friend who places mock scrapes out every year. I've placed mock scrapes and had visitors "congregate".

Do they congregate as often as bait sites, no I don't think they do. If it didn't work however mock scrapes would have gone by the wayside years ago.

I don't want to crucify you Mike. I apologize for the "showboat" comment and shouldn't have said that. Maybe I got mixed up in the "Tough guy bully cop" comment - who knows.

Your right about the reason for Bowsite and posting our achievements and such. It's a great venue to post those things and maybe the 300 game was over the top and the baiting gutter ball bumpers comment didn't help however.

Mike sez:

"The bottom line is that those of us who speak out against baiting are a thorn in your collective baiter sides and either you want to hide or avoid or can’t handle the truth."

Seeing your a "bottom line" kinda guy Mike - here goes.

As a lawful hunter who chooses to bait deer:

I have grown tired of those of you that continually bash a legal practice of hunting. As a lawful hunter, I have grown tired of those that choose to berate, belittle and name call hunters that practice a legal form of hunting calling us "lazy" "no woodsmanship skills." As well as using the "easy" way to hunt and the comments go on and on, grouping us as outlaws and generalizing our activities as unlawful or criminal".

So if you don't like the way I respond, I apologize. But I get a little warm under the collar after listening to all that!

And that Mike is "my" bottom line!

Good Hunting!

This whole "debait" is laughable. Right now it is legal. Those of you who don't agree with it should be working to get the law changed. That will not happen with petty bickering here. Don't like it? Do something meaningful to change it.

My friend's land has around 12 condos on them. They are AWESOME for gun season, especially in the elements. All have nice propane heaters and office swivel chairs. Nothing wrong with being comfortable. Like with baiting, they are for some and not for others. We personally love using them in gun season.

Laughable why, because people have different opinions on it and your opinion differs from others? I would call it a topic that is passionate to many hunters and a topic that divides many hunters. It is far from laughable. One thing is for certain, there is nobody that will make another person change their opinion on this topic.

"Right now it is legal. "

Not true as stated. In some areas yes and in some areas no. The "no" areas increase every year as CWD expands.

You asked:

"With people showing up at your camp and all the threats...has anyone along the way, thought to notify law enforcement?"

We have called and reported illegal baits, etc.

There are a lot of dynamics that go into these situations and some of it you might call "local politics". Some things are better handled yourself. Some of these guys that do the harassing are what you would call "pillars of the community" or good old local boys. My friends and I are tourists in the eyes of the locals because we only have cabins there and don't live there year-round. We discussed calling the cops during some of these instances but the problem is, my friend's cabin that we all helped build is worth over $100,000 and we had to weigh all the factors and decide if calling the cops was worth the possibility of having his cabin or mine burned down or vandalized. It's a very tough situation when you aren't there all the time and you've been threatened with "war". You have to decide what's more important, backing away from their threats or getting involved in a war that we're not present to fight. Also, the “war” was a result of my conflict with the baiters and I kind of brought the “war” to my friend, his family and his cabin. He didn’t want the conflict or the misery and just wanted the problem to go away. I felt guilty about my role in the situation and backed down. Calling the cops may have exacerbated the situation and further involved my friend in the turmoil. Yes, maybe backing down is the wrong thing to do but they have the upper hand and we want to have an enjoyable experience while we're hunting and not live in misery or have to constantly look over our shoulders. So yes, the territorial harassers intimidate and get their way because it's not worth the misery. There were many times that I came back to my truck in the dark after an evening hunt and I was on heightened alert thinking I might get jumped. It's not a pleasant way to hunt or live. Maybe it's a coincidence but about that same time, my hunting truck that I leave at my place up there caught on fire and burned up in the middle of nowhere as I was driving it. I smelled gas and was about to pull over when it burst into flames. Me and my dog jumped out and all we could do is stand and watch it burn.

Another guy who was even more territorial and very notorious for harassing anybody who came near any of his bait sites and getting in their face like a Tazmanian Devil confronted us and we responded in kind. That guy is no longer with us but he passed his legacy on to his son.

You also wrote:

“While you have no experience at all baiting Mike, I find it equally suspicious in your claims in what baiting does or doesn't do.”

Is that a kinder gentler way of calling me a liar?

You need to reread the first paragraph of my last post. You must have missed where I wrote:

“I have also baited a little in the past myself."

I have done some baiting and have killed one small late season buck over a corn pile about 25 years ago. I also dabbled with it a little in Bayfield County and on my home property several years ago. Having hunted in Bayfield County for about 16 years I have seen what happens when I’ve been hunting an area for several years, learning the deer travel patterns and habits based on natural conditions and getting things figured out only to have a baiter move in and throw a monkey wrench into the works either by the increased human activity or by placing an unnatural food source in a location that alters movement patterns or both. That guy could have hunted the deer as they were moving naturally through the area just as I was but he chose to alter their natural patterns “assumingly” to his advantage and my disadvantage. It’s frustrating and it has happened more than once. And then what’s even worse, the guy tells me he doesn’t want me hunting in the area because he has a bait there.

I also have found numerous baits over the years, some of them perennial and I’m fully aware of their effect on deer.

Also, I currently live on 60 acres of mostly hardwoods surrounded by several hundred acres of wooded property in a very good deer area in Polk County. I originally only owned 10 acres with my house on it and the old guy that owned the other 50 acres was an avid baiter who hunted with bow, rifle and crossbow. He often informed me that he had to “feed” otherwise the deer just wouldn’t come through the area. His main bait site was less than 100 feet from my property line so I was affected by it too. For several years I hunted my 10 acres and 40 acres that he owned in exchange for some chores that I did for him. The hunting was convenient because it was out my back door but it was frustrating because most of the deer did not move through the area until after dark or nearly dark. In over 30 years of hunting the property the old guy had killed a handful of fawns, small does and yearling bucks but he had never killed a mature buck. He had stories of a couple he had seen pass through during the rut but he never killed one.

During the past several years I have purchased his 50 acres (first the 40 and just this spring the other 10). Along with that baiting was outlawed in Polk County a few years ago. I think one of the reasons he sold the land to me is because he lamented the fact that he could no longer bait and therefore he believed hunting was no good. Since I acquired the property and the baiting on the property has ceased, hunting has improved immensely. I have regular deer sightings and In the last few years I have killed two mature bucks on the property that would probably make the old guy choke on his Copenhagen.

In addition to that, a neighbor that owns an adjoining 80 acres was/is an avid baiter and I could tell by the deer movement patterns through my property when he was or wasn’t baiting. BTW he got pinched last fall for illegal baiting and he stated to me that without bait his season is ruined and there’s hardly any sense even hunting.

So don’t worry; I have enough experience with baiting to understand its effects…

Blood - nice humor using autism as the stage. Whats next... Dementia? Multiple Sclerosis maybe throw in a Jerry's Kids??

Someone very close to me has Autism and appreciate that reference. Its ok though your human and of the flesh.

And Kudos to the guys you mention that mentor kids all the time. All the time is the key not one day a year. They dont need a special one day hunt. Take them with you all the time.

Hit the nail on the head Pasq and I couldn't have said it better - "Take them all the time." Now practice what you preach and the world should be a better place!

Now let me get this straight -

You draw and post a picture meant for me as the "Grand Poobah" and then go ahead and write all sorts of things including name calling me "Mr. Obvious"!

Then, you complain that I'm using autism as a "stage?" And from the sounds of it, your offended. Really?

I didn't call you "autistic" nor did I directly refer to you as such. The verbiage was simply left to interruption by the reader, be that what it may!

Here's a tip from someone that has posted on this site for many years!.

When you act out and post inappropriate, demeaning pictures, photos or context someone is going to respond. Now, if that's disturbing to you I would suggest re-evaluation of what your sending in the first place - problem solved.

Sorry to hear about your storm delays on your trip - that stinks!

I'll be out this weekend on the youth hunt for turkeys. Weather report looks good and hopefully the birds cooperate!

Good Hunting!

No one ever called you a liar. If I did please refer me to the post where I did -

I cannot make out the plate number on that truck fire however - do you have another shot at a different angle. :^)

Just kidding - I'm sure it's your truck! What a dang shame, good to hear everyone got out OK thou. Wow!

"Some things are better handled yourself."

From the sounds of it Mike your not having much success in the "handling it yourself" department. Sounds pretty bad. I think you believe these outlaws burned your truck up.

I'm not there Mike - I don't know what all you've experienced. But I will tell you this much - you boys should make the call.

Call when it happens - don't wait a month of Sundays and provided a laundry list of what happened for the last 5 years - old news Mike, too much time has passed and memories fade.

Test the waters - stop at the Sheriff's Office and talk to a second shift deputy and tell him your story and see what he thinks. That way you'll know if he really can help you and your group - invite him out to the property to look around.

Get to know these guys (deputies) they are the ones that can help you. That's what your friend pays those high taxes for....If I could, I'd go with ya and things would turn around quite quickly. A tad too far north for me.

If you really want this to go away and your serious you need to take the appropriate steps to curtail it and "handling it yourself" doesn't appear to be cutting it.

Enough said -

With all your experience in deer hunting Mike - do you really believe that a 2 gallon bait pile will change the movement of whitetail deer? Really now.

Do you think the new food plot my neighbor just started will alter natural deer movement for me?

I'm not talking about an unlawful bait now, 2 gallons just like it should be done?

As you well know Mike, deer are browsers they cannot and will not survive on a straight diet of corn. Their body's need many vitamins and minerals than shell corn simply does not supply.

Does anyone believe that a deer will feed at a bait site, walk off lay down 150 yards away and wait for the next feeding?

What they do is visit and move on walking all over the damn property looking for....more food items!

Yes, sometimes that occurs at night but my experiences and photos show plenty of daytime deer activity to debunk the "nocturnal deer" argument!

Hate to cut this short Mike, but the wife's waiting... I gotta ask permission for some property on Saturday's big turkey hunt! (Always have better lucky with a pretty woman with me - I don't look so good anymore)

Talk later!

I do not bait but am not bothered by those who do. I really don't have an opinion on it. Is that simple enough for you to understand?

OK, if you want to pick nits, it is only legal in the areas where it is legal. I never made any reference regarding the pro's or con's in areas where it is illegal simply because if it is illegal to do something then I am against doing it.

The debate has gone on for years. If you feel the need to re-hash then by all means go for it. I have better things to do, like making you look foolish.

That has absolutely nothing to do with your previous post or my reply. I'll help you with your comprehension shortcomings.

You said de-baiting is laughable and I just asked how when it is just a popular and contentious topic. You also said it was legal and I corrected you that in fact it is illegal in many areas and those are growing yearly. If I tell you the speed limit is 75mph, I'm sure you'd correct me that it is not 75 in all areas. You hate being wrong but given how often that occurs, you should be getting used to it by now. I do commend you that you have gone like a day now without calling someone ignorant. Perhaps you finally learned what it means or are striving to actually enhance your vocabulary.

How many food plots alter deer patterns?

My neighbor is putting in a 2 acre food plot adjacent to my property - will that effect the deer count on my property that is void of food plots?

Just wondering!

I know it does. I can bank on particular deer showing up at bait piles pretty much daily and around the same time even. They know the pile is there and come in relaxed. I've even had them bed down at the bait pile. As previously stated, these are does, fawns and young bucks. Young bucks are crazy easy to shoot over bait. They come in for food and go nuts. The does at least look around here and there. I still have never once seen a 3.5 or older at a bait site. When I want to take a doe for meat or to see lots of deer, I sit at bait. When I want a challenge, I don't sit at bait.

Possibly. Are you going to bait to counter it?

The deer patterns will change because of the new food plot - deer movement will alter so I must as well.

Happygolucky - I want to come hunt your "tame" deer because in this neck of the woods, deer are all but "relaxed."

If I can find it (don't count on it), I'll post a video of a deer - 6 point if I recall approaching one of my baits on my video camera. Deer (buck) takes a step freezes, takes another - freeze - like he's crapping razor blades. Classic deer approach to bait. He ran off before he even got to feed, after all that work.

They know it didn't grow there and placed by humans. There is scent, human activity - deer are not dumb unless you hunt with Happy and his tame bait deer.

Happy sez about young bucks "They come in for food and go nuts."

What do you mean "go nuts" - do they jump around a lot, try to climb trees, walk backwards - please explain...because I never have seen a deer "go nuts" at a bait site other than older does fighting off fawns for space too feed.

Turkey weekend!

Alter daytime movement - so does bird watching, squirrel hunting, waterfowl hunting and any number of other outdoor activities.

Where were you when I was posting daytime shots of deer at my bait site?

Plenty of deer activity - and really, if there never was any activity - why would a person hunt there or bother to hunt over bait?

I also have encountered the territorial side of it that Mike talks about. In fact, it sounds like we may have been dealing with some of the same people.

How many of us towards the middle of October have been watching for or hoping for the Big Buck on our hunting land. only to never see him from then to December/January if he makes it.

We start seeing deer we have never seen before on hunts or on our cameras as the rut kicks in. deer travelling miles from home in search of a receptive doe.

I want to say I hunted around Herbster from the early 90's and for about 10 years after.

Our group never saw another baiter and for that fact, never saw another hunter. We saw some people during the gun deer season floating around but rarely if ever in the woods. I don't know where you hunted Rut - but we had a very low population of hunters and back then....some pretty good deer hunting!

Come to think of it, I did have one guy walk up on me during grouse season. We did see a number of people hunting grouse from time to time. We started hunting them as well back then.

When a deer is acting like that it is the worst time to try and harvest one imo, too likely they'll jump at the shot and end up wounded. Targeting deer that are on edge due to your baiting does not make hunting with bait challenging, if anything it makes it a very risky shot that most wouldn't take.

"Happy, your arguments digress to the point of being complety ignorant. You have nothing yet your ignorance precludes you from additional babble that only serves to further prove your ignorance."

I see CaptMike is working on attracting more members to the wbh. lol that's good stuff.

What do you mean "go nuts" - do they jump around a lot, try to climb trees, walk backwards - please explain...because I never have seen a deer "go nuts" at a bait site other than older does fighting off fawns for space too feed. "

Yes, exactly, all of the above. It is really cool to see. I'm surprised with all your baiting experience you have not seen it. And besides all that, they come in put their head down and eat to their heart's content without caring about their surroundings like does can. Personal experience here, not heresay or lip service. Just like I posted the pic of 5 does all broadside eating away without "pooping razors".

"Thanks for jumping on the ignorance express. "

Capt Mike, you continue to lower yourself to a level I'm sure you've never reached before (or is this the real you?). You really have become the new RC. I'm sure Geitz is happy you quit posting in the WBH thread as you made a mockery of their club and a complete a$$ of yourself. You do that well whenever you post. Yep, the new RC. You must be proud.

Of course he was a little dismayed that you felt that anyone could replace him. Says he always did respect your opinion.

No doubt he has been mentoring you at being a proper WBH member berating others who opine differently than you do chasing people away. You two are a perfect combination of people who think they know everything and always pat themselves on the back for their so-called accomplishments. How many monikers are you posting under nowadays? Keep up the great work RC, er Capt Mike.

When you constantly say that my experiences didn’t happen or say they’re not true if I don’t have statistics, etc. you are basically calling me a liar. I don’t know how it could be perceived any other way.

By not going to the cops I may have lost the battle but I did not bring war to my friends. You’re right though, it’s not working out too well for me and next time I’m in a situation where it’s just me and I don’t have to worry about the consequences for anybody else I will be contacting law enforcement. That being said, I’m up there to hunt and enjoy myself; I shouldn’t have to deal with this crap and I don’t want to and shouldn’t have to spend my time hanging out with and cozying up to local law enforcement.

You said that you didn’t run into any other baiters when you hunted around Herbster and I don’t doubt that you didn’t have any problems. One thing I’ve learned about the baiters up north is that they establish their territories and they tend to be pretty stationary in their hunting tactics and not have many conflicts with each other. They know where other baiters are and they avoid each other. Some of them have all of their eggs in one basket and that’s one of the reasons they defend their bait sites so vigorously. Once they’ve spend a lot of time and effort cutting shooting lanes, trimming a stand tree, installing a stand, hauling bait to one location, sometimes cutting an ATV trail through the woods and possibly have some big bucks on camera they get pretty committed to that spot and may not have a plan B or plan C. If somebody moves in on the spot where they have expended so much effort and try to kill “their” buck they get very defensive, or should I say offensive, especially since they may have no other place to hunt if this spot gets messed up or if their target buck gets killed.

As sawtooth said:

“any deer hunter worth a sheet should be able to kill a deer as the food sources and movement patterns change”

And that’s where some of the conflicts occur. One of the things I love about hunting the northwoods is the ability to move around on all of the public land, explore new country and adapt to new food sources such as clear cuts, a productive oak ridge, young growth, bedding areas, etc. Deer densities are low enough that finding large amounts of naturally occurring deer sign in any one area is extremely rare. You have to learn how to read subtleties in sign and key on topography and vegetation. The majority of the time when you find a large amount of sign if you keep looking you will find a bait not too far away. That is always a disappointment because you know somebody has claimed the area and there will most likely be a dispute if you try to hunt anywhere in the area.

As much as I’m disappointed when I find a bait, I’m sure the baiters are just as disappointed when guys like me who are mobile and constantly scouting and looking for new/better spots find their baits. I even had one guy who confronted me when I parked my truck too close to “his area” say to me “why don’t you stay down in Polk County, aren’t there plenty of deer there?” He wasn’t only claiming the section of land but apparently the entire County and beyond.

Non-baiters are usually mobile and may hunt multiple areas depending on changing conditions, wind direction, etc. I have many spots that I have hunted for years and nobody would ever know I hunt there because my stand is rarely there when I’m not there and I leave no trace of my presence, except maybe a gutpile if I’m lucky ?. It’s really frustrating when a baiter moves in and changes things and claims the area and doesn’t want me there anymore. Non-baiters can come and go from an area with more than one guy hunting an area and never know the other guy is there and never have any conflicts. We proved that when I was talking to another guy who has a cabin in Bayfield County (former Bowsite member) and we found out we had been hunting the same area for several years and had never encountered each other or had negative effects from each other.

I’ve been around the deer hunting block long enough to know that bait alters deer movement patterns. If it didn’t work why would anybody use it? Isn’t it obvious that the intent of baiting is to alter deer patterns and draw them to the bait? I don’t care if it’s 2 gallons or 10 gallons, if the bait is there and the deer know it, they will alter their patterns to visit the bait pile. If the bait causes deer to go somewhere that they normally would not have gone, their movement has been altered. That alteration may pull them away from the natural route that they had been using and possibly the route that a non-baiting hunter was hunting on after he finally patterned them well enough to fine tune his stand location. Yes, now you’re going to say that altering movement by calling a buck 100 yards closer with a grunt call is the same thing, but seriously… it’s not and you know it.

I’ve also been around enough bait piles and had enough bait and feed on my property to see the deer beds in the snow not far from the bait piles. Of course they did not spend the entire day or night there but the bait altered where they were travelling and where they bedded, at least part of the time. The effect can be magnified in a bad acorn year or when there is less natural food around. And you think the wolves don’t figure this out up north…? It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure that one out…

Yes, your neighbor’s food plot will effect deer movement. You may have noticed that the majority of my discussion has revolved around baiting on public land in the north woods. Although I don’t think baiting and feeding is in anybody’s best interest and can be counter-productive, I’m a strong proponent of private property rights and I accept that people have the right to bait as long as it’s legal. However, I believe that if somebody wants to improve the habitat on their property by creating food plots that is within their private property rights too. I think if somebody wants deer on their property they should use a balanced approach to improve habitat. Yes I think baiting and feeding of deer should be illegal statewide because it does nothing to create any kind of natural balance and does nothing to improve habitat or the carrying capacity of the land. It is a quick fix, instant gratification method used to kill a deer that alters nature with little or no benefit to nature. I personally don’t think dumping a bait pile is the same as planting a food plot (and doing other habitat improvements) for a plethora of reasons. It’s not legal for a private citizen to claim public land by planting a food plot and the same thing should go for baiting on public land.

Good idea on taking the better half out with you when you ask for permission to hunt; I’ll have to give that a try.

Good luck with the youth hunt; there aren’t many turkeys left in my neck of the woods…

You and I can have varying and different opinions on so many levels! But I think we can still get along - don't agree with everything in your post - but liked the tone you set. Enjoyable reading!

No Mike - you shouldn't have to put up that crap and have to deal with idiots. It's your off time and recreational pursuit and you shouldn't be more stressed out because of it.

But taking the time to chat with and get to know local law enforcement - is NEVER a bad idea.

I like the people who approach me saying "hey I don't want to bother you." (Most start out that way)

I tell them straight up "bother me?" "What bother...I work for you - what's up?"

Usually directions or someone they know got a ticket, but sometimes I can really help and that's what my job really is all about.

Cops are people and like people, some are more talkative and chatty. You find the right deputy - a sportsman (most are) It's just nice to get a business card and if you need help someday - give em' a call. Ya don't have to date their sister or marry into the family!

Years ago on Bowsite I had a guy PM me because his neighbor was constantly trespassing when he was back home near Milwaukee/Racine. He asked me if I could help him.

I did.

I spoke to the neighbor on his behalf. The neighbor admitted that he knew when the landowner was gone, but didn't know about the trail camera pictures. But he was honest and admitted it.

I struck a deal with the neighbor that, he would stay off the property and I'd save him 267.00 dollars in a trespass fine. He agreed.

I also told him that the complaints property and cabin should remain in good repair because if wasn't I'd be back. He understood - at the end he was actually pretty nice and apologized for his action. We shook hands!

Absentee landowner happy - violating neighbor happy - no more contacts a WIN for all. Never a further problem - well at least none I was aware of.

That doesn't happen ever time, but it didn't surprise me either.

Remember - they work for you. If it wasn't for "you" they wouldn't be working - most realize that and just want to plain help for the sake of it as they choose the career for a reason - helping others!

I'm running out of steam Mike - thanks for the kind words about the hunt! Hope my hunting partner gets a shot and if not at least we see something!

Good luck to you!

I can't figure another

In a neighboring county 24 months.

Does this mean CWD testing will increase, or decrease, until no positive samples are found? LOL

79. (8) Do you support a legislative change to ban deer baiting and feeding STATEWIDE from September 1 through the last day of any deer hunting season?

2532 yes, 1303 No, Counties in favor 63, Counties against 9.

too much money in it,

although retired, I still train, I wish I could tell you what this recent legislature is putting on law enforcement, but I can not at this time.....

however, politics is amazing, no matter what side their on, they always stick their noses, in many issues they no nothing about

If enough people make enough noise for a long enough time, someone may actually do the right thing for all of the right reasons and take on the baiting fight. I'm sure a handful of baiting die hards would probably quit "hunting" which would be a positive thing as well.

Back on topic, a decision on baiting to go bye-bye should be made seeing how the general populace feels. Not that it matters much though as our input is just for show and to make people feel good but most know it matters none.

All I did was make an observation about a change...

I understand why some people may be threatened by that change though...

That assumes he makes it through the summer. I can't see that unless he starts spawning his multiple personalities which he will. It sure didn't take him long to resurface again. His primary apologist just piped in to. Seeing how well he is doing as Ronny's mouthpiece of bashing others and patting himself on the back, one would think he'd want to hold that role.

" they would rather spend time bashing someone who is no longer here?" so db=rc=howatt isn't here? Jack coho don't flip/flop on deck that fast.