Personally I call it the Outdoor Channel syndrome. I have run into several young folks and people new to hunting in the last 5 years. They have watched enough of these stupid TV shows to realize that letting them get through a year or two makes a big difference. It may be a bit unrealistic but so long as they are passing my yearling bucks I am good with that. Having said that we have had some tremendous bucks killed around here in the last few years.
I do like that people have a choice. I think the DEC In NY is clueless of course that is just my opinion.
I hope they don't limit buck take to only one; while its very seldom that I would take a bow buck and a gun buck, I like being able to bowhunt and then hunt the ADK's.
Closing North a week earlier is a mixed blessing because: 1) it helps eliminate buck slaughters when winter arrives early and the locals hammer them in the yards; 2) I like hunting on snow, thus the later the season stays open, the greater the chance that snow arrives or more storms occur increasing the number of great snow tracking days.
The changes are also likely to not make sense, as DEC has a history of doing things for seemingly little reason - changing South opener to a Saturday, allowing use of Xguns (my opinion), etc.
Like all others, I'm mostly interested in how the changes will affect ME!
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You look around your network of hunting friends around the region or on this forum and you've got everything from guys who "aren't seeing jack", to guys who are swimming in deer. You've got guys involved in leasing, foot plots and QDM who can pass sub trophy bucks with confidence, knowing they're going to get a crack at a 120s or higher buck. Guys who are for a variety of reasons relegated to hunting public land to fellas who have access to choice, large private tracts where they can control the pressure and what is shot and what is not. I happen to hunt a small private parcel surrounded by "brown is down" mentality crowd on 3 sides. My point is there is a feast or famine situation I think across the state which is complicated by all these variables and I wouldn't think that trying to manage all these micro-scenarios is an easy task. I wouldn't want to be trying to do it.
Backstops here.....I've heard you comment about Pennsy and how the AR (or other regulations) are ruining the deer hunting there. At least I think that's the feeling I got from some of your past posts. Please comment on why and how that is happening there, in your opinion.
Thanks.
Buckstopshere's Link
Pa.'s AR program is a very smooth way to decimate the deer population there. The AR bait and switch program was sold to hunters (contrary to the local opinion here, not the most powerful of lobbies in Pa.) The timber, eco-anti-hunting, and farming concerns...lobbies supported a herd reduction program because it was in their best interest. The genesis of the AR herd reduction program was what is called the Pa. Regeneration Study (PRS.) The following was written in 2003. "As a result of a new deer management plan in 2003 that included publicly identified and supported goals, numerous objectives related to deer health, forest habitat health, and deer-human conflicts replaced the single deer density objective. Instead of basing deer management recommendations on a forest-driven deer density objective alone, deer health factors and deer-human conflicts also were considered. The Game Commission began using data from the Pennsylvania Regeneration Study (PRS) to monitor deer-forest interactions which provide the most current and comprehensive statewide forest regeneration data available. The PRS began as a collaborative project involving the U.S. Forest Service, DCNR, and Penn State University."
From the USDA Dept. of Ag.
Pa. Regeneration study: 1st sentence.
"Pennsylvania’s forests have long been plagued with tree regeneration challenges due to many factors, the most significant of which has been deer browsing."
Get that...Pa. considers deer to be a plague. They had to come up with a plan that was palatable to hunters and reduce the deer.
What happened?
Pa. hunters, like all deer hunters will shoot does...bring home some venison, if they can not shoot a buck. When the AR program was established, there, hunters who were used to shooting yearling bucks no longer could and whacked a doe (most deer hunters only hunt a few days.) So Pa. flooded the market with antlerless permits and we deer hunters did the rest, doing what we do best...kill deer. Result: a whitetail population that only really supports wealthy landowners who invest heavily in food plots to suck the remaining bucks and does into their private domains. I am speaking specifically about Pa.'s big woods, not the burbs...there the deer population is out of control for all the stupid reasons of the urban mentality. Since I live on the border, I have hunted there for 45 years, getting my first non-resident license there for $35 in 1970.
The buck index in the North central area is less than what it is in the Adirondacks. Pa. does not use a buck index, but it is easy to compute by taking the buck harvest in a DMU and dividing it by the square miles in the unit. Also contrary to popular opinion, the bucks are not larger there than they ever have been. There have always been tankers in Pa. The shame is that according to the recently released 2014 Pa. Deer Harvest Report, in 10 years, the overall Pa. take has dropped 40%. Let that sink in...because the kill has actually increased in some of the burbs around Pittsburgh and Philly. So in the Northcentral area...the big woods, the take has dropped by 50%. I could take you down there and show you where we could walk for miles in the woods after a snow and not cut a deer track. Tragic. The mom and pop hunting business has been all but wiped out, a shadow of what it was just 20 years ago.
I was heartened to see that NY's deer managers actually dropped the DMU permit numbers from 10 to 16% across the board for this upcoming season...hoping they learned from Pa.'s apocalyptical mistake.
Sorry: The hyperlink didn't work. You can copy and paste in your browser the above link on Pa.'s AR debacle.
One last thing. What are you hearing or seeing as far as the quality and age structure of the bucks that are being taken since AR has been in place? Just my opinion but if the doe population is greatly reduced or suppressed in your area the bucks will not be there no matter how many of them might be in the overall population. My personal situation might actually mirror that in so far as the neighbors start out shooting does all during bow and then cross-bow season, then by a week before gun they're bitching ..."where are the deer". Bucks travel far and wide at night and if they're not picking up doe activity in an area they'll simply not be visiting or even passing through your area...no reason to.
Well I hope they do the right thing but like so many above, I'm not sure they will. The "Citizens Task Force" thing they have to coalesce their deer population targets include many different parties/interests and I've never had the feeling that the interests of deer hunters are very high on the list.
As far as quality and age structure goes...taken from the Pa. 2014 harvest report (available online) 47% of the bucks harvested last season were 1.5 year olds...even with AR. And 53% of the bucks were 2.5 and older. In NY...surprise surprise....according to its 2014 harvest report....48% of the antler bucks harvested were 1.5 year olds (with Voluntary AR...those of us passing on small bucks), 29% were 2.5 and 23% were 3.5 and older. Those are the stats. I would have bet Pa. would have had a higher percentage of older bucks killed after 10 years of AR. But it is not the case.
Anecdotally...just from my experience...there is no difference in the size of the deer, or the antlers. I've been killing deer in Pa. for 45 years and so have my buddies and we can't tell any difference in antler size or body weight or overall fitness since AR was mandated in 2003. They look just like our NY whitetails a few miles north over the border. The Potter County Enterprise puts our a special deer hunting edition with a buck contest at the end of the deer season each year. Pretty cool. As you know, a yearling buck with three points on a side is still going to only dress out about 125 lbs. The real shame is that before AR's Pa. used to brag that they had 1 million hunters...the license sales last year was 740,000. Pa. is spending tens of thousands of dollars to recruit hunters with a GohuntPa initiative. Window-dressing (an old-fashioned word but you know what it means.) lol (Gohuntpa.org) an impressive website. But Rosenberry et. al are stubborn and even increased the antlerless permits this season in Unit 3A by 1,000. I'm sure some Pa. apologists will respond that the Pa. Game Commission is cutting back on the antlerless permits...but not in Unit 3A where I hunted.