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Buck Zones in NY - hmmmmm

I hope they don't shorten the rifle season in NZ... I love hunting end of the year on tracking snow... I wouldn't mind some form of AR in southern zone, give buck some chance at growing older.

I really don't see the issue. At least here in the Southern zone where I live. While there is still some of the old if its brown its down mentality. I see bigger and better bucks being killed every year.

Personally I call it the Outdoor Channel syndrome. I have run into several young folks and people new to hunting in the last 5 years. They have watched enough of these stupid TV shows to realize that letting them get through a year or two makes a big difference. It may be a bit unrealistic but so long as they are passing my yearling bucks I am good with that. Having said that we have had some tremendous bucks killed around here in the last few years.

I do like that people have a choice. I think the DEC In NY is clueless of course that is just my opinion.

First off everything I am about to right is the darn honest truth and no made up facts. So here is my take on it About the Northern Zone I have only hunted there once ( rifle ) and there were some nice 8 point and better bucks taken there. but that was some time ago. The Southern Zone I have hunted for 50 + years both L.I. and the Catskills. I have seen some very nice Racks and Big bodied deer taken in both areas.L.I. has allowed you to shoot as many does as you would like until you shoot a buck.If you had a Doe permit for that area.They still have many deer. I have been living full time in the Catskills. I have enough land for my self and 2 Guests to safely hunt on.There is private land all around mine, then DEP land and quite a bit of State land.And farms. In the last 10 years the amount of deer have Dropped , both Bucks and Does.to about 1/4 of what there was before. The area has not changed much if any. This year was the firs year I have noticed Does only having 1 Fawn. Last year the bucks almost the whole hunting season only came out at night not only until the last week of hunting did they start coming out during the day ( legal hunting hours ) Looking at the DEC Quotas they wanted for last year and the amount of DMP handed out the actual deer take The amounts were Down,Couldn't the figure out there were less Does then they wanted tokens what do the do The Increase the amount of Does the would like taken in my area for this area.What the heck are they trying to do wipe out All of the deer. Time will tell.

However the new buck zones shake out, it appears, at least for the 2015 season the DEC is not on a mission to wipe out the deer herd as Pa. did when it instituted its AR program. The recently released DMP probability chart for 2015 shows a 16% cutback on antlerless permits statewide. That percent holds pretty true through the Southern Tier DMUs. So it doesn't appear that NY is going to make the same drastic mistake (40% drop in deer harvest in 10 years.) But we will see what the DMU permit release will be next year when the AR zones and requirements are finalized. My guess is that where the doe population is highest will be the most restrictive ARs...maybe even four points on a side. That way hunters will have to shoot does for venison and the DEC will get its management goals under control.

I agree with the AR program.Last year ( at the end ) of the season that I stated above. Even though I was not hunting then.( long story ) I did have enough trail cams out to see what was going on and it was one of the few years by Me I have seen ( on cameras ) More the one 8 point or better deer with some nice size (at least ) 200 pounds or better bodies. So it is working. Last years young bucks are still in velvet I have seen at least 1 or 2 ( looks like ) 4 pointers and another 1 or 2 fork horns which looked like the would be spike bucks but have devolped to be better. So things should be pretty good the next year or 2.

Food for thought Pat. I agree that there will be the application of different things in different areas. At a glance, I think the zones cover different circumstances fairly well - like WMU's on steroids!

I hope they don't limit buck take to only one; while its very seldom that I would take a bow buck and a gun buck, I like being able to bowhunt and then hunt the ADK's.

Closing North a week earlier is a mixed blessing because: 1) it helps eliminate buck slaughters when winter arrives early and the locals hammer them in the yards; 2) I like hunting on snow, thus the later the season stays open, the greater the chance that snow arrives or more storms occur increasing the number of great snow tracking days.

The changes are also likely to not make sense, as DEC has a history of doing things for seemingly little reason - changing South opener to a Saturday, allowing use of Xguns (my opinion), etc.

Like all others, I'm mostly interested in how the changes will affect ME!

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I can relate to many of the comments in this thread. As far as two bucks limit is concerned, it is nice to be able to take a bow and gun buck but I can remember back when we could only take one buck and we' were (at least I was) thrilled to get that one deer. Ironically, back in those days I was out there a lot and can say with certainty that in the areas I hunt we had a lot....LOT more deer. Still, getting a buck was the icing on the cake and there wasn't the emphasis on B&C antler scores. Today a lot of guys must feel diminished in some way if they shoot a 1.5 year old buck.

You look around your network of hunting friends around the region or on this forum and you've got everything from guys who "aren't seeing jack", to guys who are swimming in deer. You've got guys involved in leasing, foot plots and QDM who can pass sub trophy bucks with confidence, knowing they're going to get a crack at a 120s or higher buck. Guys who are for a variety of reasons relegated to hunting public land to fellas who have access to choice, large private tracts where they can control the pressure and what is shot and what is not. I happen to hunt a small private parcel surrounded by "brown is down" mentality crowd on 3 sides. My point is there is a feast or famine situation I think across the state which is complicated by all these variables and I wouldn't think that trying to manage all these micro-scenarios is an easy task. I wouldn't want to be trying to do it.

Backstops here.....I've heard you comment about Pennsy and how the AR (or other regulations) are ruining the deer hunting there. At least I think that's the feeling I got from some of your past posts. Please comment on why and how that is happening there, in your opinion.

Thanks.

Sorry, my last sentence was idirected at "Buckstopshere"...darned spell check.

jdawg: I have been called a lot worse than Backstops...how 'bout Backstrapshere? lol.

Pa.'s AR program is a very smooth way to decimate the deer population there. The AR bait and switch program was sold to hunters (contrary to the local opinion here, not the most powerful of lobbies in Pa.) The timber, eco-anti-hunting, and farming concerns...lobbies supported a herd reduction program because it was in their best interest. The genesis of the AR herd reduction program was what is called the Pa. Regeneration Study (PRS.) The following was written in 2003. "As a result of a new deer management plan in 2003 that included publicly identified and supported goals, numerous objectives related to deer health, forest habitat health, and deer-human conflicts replaced the single deer density objective. Instead of basing deer management recommendations on a forest-driven deer density objective alone, deer health factors and deer-human conflicts also were considered. The Game Commission began using data from the Pennsylvania Regeneration Study (PRS) to monitor deer-forest interactions which provide the most current and comprehensive statewide forest regeneration data available. The PRS began as a collaborative project involving the U.S. Forest Service, DCNR, and Penn State University."

From the USDA Dept. of Ag.

Pa. Regeneration study: 1st sentence.

"Pennsylvania’s forests have long been plagued with tree regeneration challenges due to many factors, the most significant of which has been deer browsing."

Get that...Pa. considers deer to be a plague. They had to come up with a plan that was palatable to hunters and reduce the deer.

What happened?

Pa. hunters, like all deer hunters will shoot does...bring home some venison, if they can not shoot a buck. When the AR program was established, there, hunters who were used to shooting yearling bucks no longer could and whacked a doe (most deer hunters only hunt a few days.) So Pa. flooded the market with antlerless permits and we deer hunters did the rest, doing what we do best...kill deer. Result: a whitetail population that only really supports wealthy landowners who invest heavily in food plots to suck the remaining bucks and does into their private domains. I am speaking specifically about Pa.'s big woods, not the burbs...there the deer population is out of control for all the stupid reasons of the urban mentality. Since I live on the border, I have hunted there for 45 years, getting my first non-resident license there for $35 in 1970.

The buck index in the North central area is less than what it is in the Adirondacks. Pa. does not use a buck index, but it is easy to compute by taking the buck harvest in a DMU and dividing it by the square miles in the unit. Also contrary to popular opinion, the bucks are not larger there than they ever have been. There have always been tankers in Pa. The shame is that according to the recently released 2014 Pa. Deer Harvest Report, in 10 years, the overall Pa. take has dropped 40%. Let that sink in...because the kill has actually increased in some of the burbs around Pittsburgh and Philly. So in the Northcentral area...the big woods, the take has dropped by 50%. I could take you down there and show you where we could walk for miles in the woods after a snow and not cut a deer track. Tragic. The mom and pop hunting business has been all but wiped out, a shadow of what it was just 20 years ago.

I was heartened to see that NY's deer managers actually dropped the DMU permit numbers from 10 to 16% across the board for this upcoming season...hoping they learned from Pa.'s apocalyptical mistake.

According what I have read on the PA. hunting sites AR's have worked there, The lack of deer is because of lack of food sources ( no food ) they moved to another area. That was there comment.

http://www.wellsvilledaily.com/article/20150420/SPORTS/150429963

Sorry: The hyperlink didn't work. You can copy and paste in your browser the above link on Pa.'s AR debacle.

I did locate the article and read it. I was familiar with the history of Alt and the whole habitat regeneration thing. I guess it's a fair proposition to say the statistics don't lie. I never thought about the possibility that the typical Hunter who's under Antler Restrictions might get to the point where if they're unable to kill a legal antlered buck within the first couple days might resort to the "brown is down" mentality. We all like venison and for many hunters killing a deer...maybe any deer, is making the whole deer season experience more complete. So you're theorizing that the antlerless population is going to absorb an increasingly large portion of the harvest. That's a plausible explanation for the extent of the decline in the kill figures overall.

One last thing. What are you hearing or seeing as far as the quality and age structure of the bucks that are being taken since AR has been in place? Just my opinion but if the doe population is greatly reduced or suppressed in your area the bucks will not be there no matter how many of them might be in the overall population. My personal situation might actually mirror that in so far as the neighbors start out shooting does all during bow and then cross-bow season, then by a week before gun they're bitching ..."where are the deer". Bucks travel far and wide at night and if they're not picking up doe activity in an area they'll simply not be visiting or even passing through your area...no reason to.

Well I hope they do the right thing but like so many above, I'm not sure they will. The "Citizens Task Force" thing they have to coalesce their deer population targets include many different parties/interests and I've never had the feeling that the interests of deer hunters are very high on the list.

Right. If there are no does, the bucks will go elsewhere and find them during the rut. Then drop back into their bachelor groups - core ranges through the winter, spring and summer. Since the doe population in Pa. Unit 3A (northern Tioga, Potter, and McKean counties) is low. Bucks are scarce except if you are fortunate enough to have the biggest or best food plot in the area. You will have deer then.

As far as quality and age structure goes...taken from the Pa. 2014 harvest report (available online) 47% of the bucks harvested last season were 1.5 year olds...even with AR. And 53% of the bucks were 2.5 and older. In NY...surprise surprise....according to its 2014 harvest report....48% of the antler bucks harvested were 1.5 year olds (with Voluntary AR...those of us passing on small bucks), 29% were 2.5 and 23% were 3.5 and older. Those are the stats. I would have bet Pa. would have had a higher percentage of older bucks killed after 10 years of AR. But it is not the case.

Anecdotally...just from my experience...there is no difference in the size of the deer, or the antlers. I've been killing deer in Pa. for 45 years and so have my buddies and we can't tell any difference in antler size or body weight or overall fitness since AR was mandated in 2003. They look just like our NY whitetails a few miles north over the border. The Potter County Enterprise puts our a special deer hunting edition with a buck contest at the end of the deer season each year. Pretty cool. As you know, a yearling buck with three points on a side is still going to only dress out about 125 lbs. The real shame is that before AR's Pa. used to brag that they had 1 million hunters...the license sales last year was 740,000. Pa. is spending tens of thousands of dollars to recruit hunters with a GohuntPa initiative. Window-dressing (an old-fashioned word but you know what it means.) lol (Gohuntpa.org) an impressive website. But Rosenberry et. al are stubborn and even increased the antlerless permits this season in Unit 3A by 1,000. I'm sure some Pa. apologists will respond that the Pa. Game Commission is cutting back on the antlerless permits...but not in Unit 3A where I hunted.

Wow....that's some food for thought backed by some data... Thanks for the insights.

I like the idea of AR's in the bow-only ares but they have not implemented that. I used to be able to kill 5 bucks a year by hunting the bow only ares and the gun areas. I used to do that too. We were over run with deer in the early 90's!(92-97). I could shoot unlimited does back than as well and I did that too. It was not uncommon for me to see 55-60 deer on an afternoon sit and as many as 12-17 bucks. Now the coyotes have stepped in and the farmers are not farming like they once did and numbers are down. I do believe the 3 point per side is a pretty good idea it is all the messing with the antlerless permits that DEC is screwing up. The area where I gun hunt consists of 3 pieces of land and about 400 acres, just 10 years ago I would see 10-15 deer on an average sit, now sometimes I do not see a deer. I have only shot one buck and one doe with a gun in the last 6 years in this area and the other 3 guys who hunt it have shot very few as well, but the neighbors have shot tons of deer and wonder where they have all gone. It does no good to educate the hunters when DEC has no clue on how to manage a herd. It is a shame. Shawn

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