Contributors to this thread:
I know hate is a strong word, circle of life and all that. We lose many fawns. They are plentiful and DEC won't change the season. Sure wish we could hunt them earlier. In an area were you get a DMP every other year increasing the number of deer is damn near impossible give the loss to winter as well. Just blowing off steam
Agreed, they take way too many fawns. Season, what season? LOL sorry but they really do take way too many fawns. I went out yesterday evening and counted 47 does, most looked to be at least 2.5 years old. Out of all those does we counted only 9 fawns. Each one of those does should of had a fawn or two. I know some may have been nearby and not seen but no where near the amount we should of had. Also saw 17 bucks as well. Shawn
I'd have to count deer over ten years to come up with 47 doe. The high ground in 4H. I'm a little envious, okay, a lot envious...
"season,what season ?",..exactly, I have yet to meet anyone who doesn't share that feeling....Tom
every year the coyotes around here leave piles of scat with fine red hair in my driveway to let me know that they have eaten more fawns. I have just a couple of trail pics with only one fawn this year. And in my travels I have only seen 2 fawns on the hoof.
Hmmm, so it's ok to shoot coyotes out of season, but if the neighbor shot a big buck out of season it's a problem? What's the difference - both are illegal kills?
I speak as a lifetime sportsmen, archery and muzzleloader license holder. There is no reason to change the season - it is 6 months long already. Longer than any other huntable creature with a season. Coyotes are classified as furbearers in NY and there are many trappers and some hunters that use or sell the pelts and sometimes other parts. Those pelts only have value during a portion of the open season. If one truly wants to dent the population then try hunting them during the legal season. I think what many people mean is "I'm too busy deer hunting, watching football, snowmobiling, it's too cold, etc. during the legal coyote season, so I'd rather have a season when it's convenient for me."
Most sportsmen have no idea how many coyotes they would have to shoot to have a lasting effect on the population. Shooting a few does little, shooting many triggers them to increase litter sizes and thus overall population. It is often stated that in order to control a coyote population that a harvest rate of 75% or greater over several years would be needed to eradicate an area of coyotes.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it. That's my 2 cents.
you have to seriously question a state gov. which protects coyotes for any reason. No room for them in this day and time. to bad CWD did not kill them
Even if they made the season all year long I highly doubt the amount of guys that would want to hunt them in the middle of summer would matter much in controlling numbers. As much as people hate them I think it would be somewhat cruel to kill a female and have the pups starve to death. Just a thought. I try to do my part here in MA in January and February.
The sad thing is that they don't just kill fawns. They kill a lot of adult deer as well. I actually hate to shoot them. I always feel bad, it is like I just shot my dog. They are just doing what they do but I wish someone would shoot all of them. I know it is very hard to control them and the best way is too shoot the alpha males as this may cause them to miss a litter here and there as females usually will not allow a young male to breed them. Also I am not advocating shooting them out of season, but there should be no season. Look at most states, they are considered pests and in turn are allowed to be shot year round. I am never too busy to hunt, I put more time in the woods than anybody I know, just ask guys on here who know me. If you were allowed to shoot them year round ecspecially during times when they have pups it would go a long way to helping. Kill a few big females in late april early May you would kill a lot more due to the pups dying as well, cruel? Yes, did you ever see them kill a deer fawn? I have watched them carry a fawn a day or two old acrossed a field for 300 yards. The poor thing alive the whole time and not even struggling to get away, than suddenly droppped to the ground and its throat torn out. Shawn
Frankly I love them and listening to them carry on and howl during the summer makes evening camp fires better. Always like to see them and have no interest in killing one. I have trapped and shot many. I will admit I live in a deer rich environment albeit not a big buck environment. Hunters with dogs really get after them around here. There just being Coyotes - smartest critter in our woods I'd say
The hunters with dogs hammer the crap our of them near me.......which as far as I'm concerned really stresses deer in later winter. They shot 60 in my general area a few years ago and I went 2 full summers and never heard one howl. There are a few back now. The red fox moved right in as the coyote # went down. Here is a beauty I trapped
Glad you posted that SJJ I was wondering how my 22 mag would do on a coyote. I like using it as its light and doesnt tear fur up. Did it drop or run?
SJJ where are you located? The hunters with dogs near me hammer them also. I love it, but it can put some undue stress on the deer herd.
Madison Co. about 45 min SouthE of Syracuse
I've killed several with the .22mag and they have all dropped almost right there
I said I do not like killing them, but I did not say I don't kill them. I do every chance I get, I just do not hunt them. over the years I have killed maybe 15 and they were all killed while hunting something else, deer, squirrels and bunnies. I did say it does bother me a bit as they seem so much like my dogs, its not funny. It does have to be opened year round as when I am out brush hogging or cutting hay or just out on the tractor in the summer I see a lot of them and cannot do anything about it. I work with two guys who kill roughly 60 or so a year in and around areas I hunt and it does make a difference but not a lot. Shawn
The "science" that killing coyotes more makes more of them pop up is based on total speculation. It may be a fair guess, based on some evidence, but it is not fact.
From the research I have read killing the big males does seem to help some and also opening year round would help so you could kill big females when they have litters. Sounds mean but the coyotes are ruthless killers as well. Shawn
"The "science" that killing coyotes more makes more of them pop up is based on total speculation. It may be a fair guess, based on some evidence, but it is not fact."
Oh indeed it is a fact. It is called density dependent behavior.
Kinda strange the DEC doesn't pursue reducing coyote populations with the same "fervor" they undertake reducing the deer population. I would have to conclude that they're pretty much on the same team.
I don't hate coyotes and realize they have some impact on the ecosystem, some of which is good. Coyotes are not deer killing machines. I have seen does with fawns browsing and not even flinch when coyotes ambled by.
Coyotes profit very well from lost deer, deer-vehicle accidents, and gut piles. In fact, black bears are a larger threat to fawns than coyotes are.
Nevertheless, it is humans and winter kill that have the most impact on any deer herd by far. I find it nauseating when guys brag about killing umpteen does and donating the meat like they are so altruistic and then complaining about coyotes. I am sure these same pious individuals hardly donate a penny of cash to charity. When DEC want to manage the deer population, it is through doe permits!!!
That said, I don't miss a chance to shoot one when I am deer hunting. I think they are a worthy game animal.
Bowjack, not so, they have a huge impact on the population mainly during fawning season. I have seen studies that show if the coyote population is fairly large in an area that they take 60% of the fawns born in a calendar year. That is a lot. They also take full grown healthy deer as well when the snows get deep like this past winter. Also at one time I killed umpteen does and did donate the meat but I also donate a lot of money to St. Judes as well. People have to be in the woods a lot and know their hunting areas to know the effect coyotes have on the deer population in their area. In my area it has become a real problem and DEC has to step on and do something to control the coyotes which in turn may help them with their deer numbers. Sorry to say the coyotes don't have a huge impact on the deer herd where there are established packs of them is absurd. Shawn
There have been numerous studies from colleges e.g. SUNY ESF that clearly state that coyotes cause little impact to the deer herd.
If coyotes took 60% of the fawns every year, the herd would be decimated in no time soon and you or I would not be hunting. In fact, if that many deer were lost, not to mention other predators, and deer vehicle accidents (reported), which top 50,000 per year in NYS, the entire herd would be decimated and the DEC would not be issuing doe permits.
Now can you reference the 60% studies? I would love to read them.
In fact, I know scientists who actually study coyotes and they disagree with your assertion.
BowJack, if you get some time, can you point me to the research that demonstrates these facts? And I'm not asking in snarky, a smart alec way. I'd just like to check this stuff out. Maybe hook me up with the coyote guys that can he can steer me to the/their research papers?
If you get time, I'd appreciate it!
Plenty of studies show that Coyotes can in fact kill a large number of fawns.
http://www.365whitetail.com/predators-coyotes-and-whitetail-fawn-recruitment/
http://www.gon.com/hunting/coyotes-could-drive-deer-into-predator-pit
Bowjack sorry but you are totally wrong. Just do a search on the internet. Dr. Karl Miller, Dr. John Kilgot and DR. Grant Wood have all done studies and there are hundreds if not thousands of facts to back me up. Dr. John Kilgot in one study radio collared and monitored 60 fawns in an area with a fairly high coyote population. Out of 60 fawns 73%(44 fawns)were dead in 6 weeks and of those dead 80 percent of that 44 were killed by coyotes. If you know these scientists than they also do not have a clue. As I said I do not have to give you anymore than I have. It is simple, just type in your search engine, effects of coyotes on deer populations or fawn survival rates in areas with healthy coyote populations. There is no disputing the fact that they have a huge impact on deer numbers!! Shawn
[4] Kilgo, John C. The Coyote Factor – Taking a Bite Out of Deer http://www.aonmag.com/article.php?id=2077&cid=189. You will also find a few articles that say that do not effect deer populations but most disagree with that and again most say they have a huge impact, anywhere from 35% to as I had said in areas where there are well established packs up to 60% of fawns are killed by coyotes. Shawn
thanks for the links folks.
Did you call the coyote in Pat?
Good job Pat! I couldn't get into the woods this morning till almost daylight. Around 6am a aggressive sounding group of coyotes blocking me. Thought it best to hang tight till lighter. Thanks to the snow you could see at least 3 sets of prints chasing deer. 7M, DeRuyter.
One less after this mornings set. First one with the bow.
learned a lesson though. Bottom limb hit my climber armrest and the string popped off the cam. I was done for the morning.
