Are deer drives unfair?
Wisconsin
After all the debate on the Waupaca fair chase thread I am curious what the general consensus is on deer drives during the gun season. As I've said plenty of times on here before, I hunt farm country. Twelve years ago when I first got back into hunting, my F.i.l and his brother, the land owners would allow pretty much anyone to do deer drives through their land.
In the first three years of me hunting that land I found four dead and unrecovered deer. One being a trophy size 8 point buck. I've since struck a deal with my f.i.l and his brother that allows me sole hunting rights to all of the properties. Meaning I decide who can hunt the land and how it's hunted. My first rule was NO deer drives ever.
Imo, it is unfair to the deer.
I am not sure about fair but I feel it is not hunting. I will get flamed for saying that I am sure.
A hunter scouting and pitting woodsman's skill against a deer is hunting.
It's certainly not my cup of tea, but not sure I'd go as far as to say unfair? After all, we are hiding in trees with guns with scopes, and we can shoot at deer like snipers. I bet if you'd ask a deer, they'd tell you every method we use to kill one of them is unfair lol.
I went to our local farm and fleet yesterday. Wow! There were so many people in there getting their last minute hunting gear, that it seems like deer don't stand a chance. I counted the hunters on the 320 acre farmland block I hunt. I will be hunting on 140 acres by myself. The remaining 180 there will be 14 other hunters. I have a hunch deer will be driven simply by walking to and from their stands? Multiply this across the state, and you can certainly see why we are at the top of the food chain, and thank goodness for people who privately manage their property, or do not allow hunting, because these sanctuaries are the seed for next year's hunt. I'm here to tell you that the herd is not what it was, and you can see that, by the lack of available free tags this year, the lack of doe tags, and likely will take a few years to bounce back.
From what I have read, if you are not outside completely, on the ground, wearing a loin cloth carrying traditional archery gear, you are not a hunter. Are deer drives fair? Is sitting 20+' up in a tree fair? Is wearing camo fair? Is using a compound or xbow or gun fair? Is using scents, rattling, and calls fair? Is using Ozonics fair? Only we can answer those questions. People just want to think they are the be-all end-all in the hunting world and better than others who don't do it their way. We saw the bragging in that other thread when they got one their way, belittling other ways. We saw hyprocrisy in there too. What is fair is shooting a Rage because it has a good chance to fail giving the deer a fair shake :) - sorry, couldn't resist there - j/k - don't get your undies in a bundle over it.
deer hunting needs to be one on one according to smoky, but then he wants to make out with wolves, the ultimate deer driver.
Ironic
I'm still very new but I agree it doesn't seem fair to them. Then it's not hunting, it's killing. How is it conservation of this many are being shot and unrecovered?
Just because 12 guys make a drive on 120 acres of thick cover doesn't mean they kill every deer in the section- half of the time while they are organizing the deer squirt out before the standers get to the spots. Big bucks are wise to the drives and run back between the standers- scent is all over the woods. Sometimes the deer flat out lay low and let the hunter walk past them at 20 yards. Its a sport in itself, just like bow hunting over a food plot with a Matthews that can kill a deer out to 40 plus yards-or wound one! I like to mind my own business when it comes to hunting and not judge the other hunters and there weapins or approach as long as its legal. I have to say this I'm getting really tired of this whole site with all the criticism and no one fessing up to the fact that maybe there approach is annoying to someone else. The biggest threat to hunting is within are own ranks-just my 2 cents. So if a 10 point buck from the rotten neighbor who just had a traditional family deer drive runs on your 40 acres your hunting alone on -you gonna shoot it or pass and say its unfair?
Deer drives are downright dangerous. Standers, blockers, drivers ..... all carrying guns! I have not participated in a drive since the early 1970s. When I was a stupid teenager.
Is it fair? Maybe, maybe not. The deer still have the survival smarts. Typical drives are through the nastiest cover. Unless the deer's survival skills have changed since back in my day, they will get out of there at Mach 2, lay low and let the drivers pass by, or double back behind the drivers.
Sometimes the deer don't play fair:)
Very inappropriate, disrespectful and childish reply. I see you cannot tolerate peoples opinions.
No driving allowed on this place. Just not my cup of tea. The practice got some bad press when two houses got shot in this neck of the woods (one a mile east and one a mile or so west of my place in the same year). Both times the same group was in the neighborhood....go figure why people cut the "groups" out.
very complicated question and varies place to place. But if you think its "unfair" your giving hunters way too much credit. If your hunting your 80 all week and stuck in a stand of course you don't want to shoot your load Saturday morning and drive it but you love it when your neighbor does. We want the deer to behave during gun season like in bow season but with all the added guys in the woods its tough. Is lurking in a tree "unfair" like we all do bowhunting? I get equal challenge and satisfaction shooting a deer from the ground w/ my gun within 30yds as I do from a tree w/ my bow within 30yds. We all hunt a little different and thank goodness we have the option.
Deer drives are dangerous.
Yes- they can be dangerous if not organized and set up wrong. I use to do them a lot years ago and had a lot of fun with the crews, but it seems a lost art and the big gangs that were very safe are dropping off because the private land owners are not allowing them on-which I agree with since they own the land. Most of the group or gang hunting around NW Wi is done on big public chunks -almost like the hound hunting for bear is done. I think the smaller 3-5 size drives are more effective and safe. We have a 40, its our tradition to drive it Thanksgiving day-2 drivers and 2 standers- it very effective and we have taken some nice bucks that were holed up and we would never have got in the 9 day season. But we have also had some big bucks get past-that's huinting
yup, when you throw the x-gun into the mix, creates a unfair bow hunt for the bowhunter and deer; just another gun drive method IMO on public land.
Reading many of these threads always remind me of this.
This is my opinion and I am not advocating for any method as I have tried many. I have gone on deer drives. One when I was a 22 year old fresh out of the service with my brother and his friends family. Shotgun country back then, and I didn't have any slugs , so I drove for them. I came out to the field I was supposed to , stood under a tree. Suddenly bang bang bang bang. the tree above my head exploded as a slug hit it and I hit the deck. The guys blew three legs off a doe and hit another and didn't put much effort into tracking it. My brother and I tracked that deer for quite some time after they gave up. We also did not recover the animal. We had a few words for them as we returned and they had not yet finished off the deer they blew the legs off. I pulled my side arm and finished it, and never hunted with them again.
I have been a part of a big group of drivers, in Hayward who drove all public property all season after opening day and sunday morning. Very well organized and years of experience hunting the same parcells. They knew how to set up and communicate. We had enough tht you could always see the next driver. One snuck through the first drive and between another hunter and I . He saw it first and called out to get low. all the drivers did. when the deer had cleared us we all called out clear and I was able to put it down. They have been doing the same drives for 30 some years and it was a great time. Never lost a deer. At least the two years I was there. They were adamant about recovery. One drive didn't end until all the deer were recovered.
I have sat countless hours in a tree stand. I love being up there by my self, reflecting on life and my personal thoughts. Hoping to see a deer, not just to harvest one.
I have walked trails and picked up tracks and followed them , I have come close to but never harvested a deer this way.
I believe that you hunt the way you want to hunt. With all of our modern equipment, who is to say what is fair. As long as your doing it legally, I have no right to tell anyone else what is fair and just. That's for the individual to decide. Its no different from telling someone their religion is wrong. My beliefs are my beliefs, who are you to tell me I am wrong.
Please don't turn that into a religious gripe here it was just an analogy. I have a lot of beliefs, religiously, politically, and ethically. But I know they are mine and other have their own. I don't need to get into it with a fellow man to press them on anyone.
It's another tool, if you choose to use it and do so safely I have no issue.
That's like saying are tree stands, rifles with scopes, handwarmers, insulated boots, etc. fair?
We don't drive, because we chose not to.
Just be safe and have a good time.
I do not like the large 15 people plus groups that drive every chunk they can get on whether they have permission or not. I don't think drives should be legal on public land until the last weekend of gun season as they are unfair to the guys that get in early and sit.
I do think large groups driving smaller woodlots is unfair. But small 2-4 man pushes are fine. These are my opinions, agree or disagree I don't care.
Many years ago I'd go sit up in a tree on the last couple of days of the gun season because some group of hunters near by was going to mount a drive - which would likely push a deer in my direction eventually.
I haven't witnessed one of those old-fashioned drives in more than a decade.
I've killed plenty of deer over the years that we're pushed my way by a hunter from a neighboring woodlot climbing down from his stand to go in for a break.
I've got no problem as long as it's safe.
Taking a poke at a running deer has a very high probability of a wounded animal instead of a kill. That's not ethical.
There are lots of good and valid points on here. I guess instead of fair I should have said ethical. The drives by the groups I witnessed were neither safe, fair, or ethical. i am not trying to put down any of those who enjoy participating in group drives. I also understand that in Wisconsin during gun season deer drives are as ingrained in the tradition as drinking after the hunting day is over. We all stress taking ethical, clean kill shots on our target animals and I don't see how one can take an ethical shot at a deer running full bore. Or shooting into an uncut cornfield as the deer is zigzagging. It seems to me that a shooter in a deer drive is mainly just hoping to hit something somewhere on the animal to knock it down. Of the deer I found, the eight point was shot in the neck. I'm sure he dropped immediately and the guys assumed they missed. A doe had her face blown off, she too must've dropped right there with no real effort to recover her. Two others, a spike and a doe fawn were gutshot. Those instances left a bad taste in my mouth when it came to deer drives. I'm sure like Jay said there are many groups out there who perform deer drives safely and have a very high recovery rate. I'm also sure there are many groups out there who simply shoot indiscriminately.
Our neighbors have a big group and hunt 3 different farms. They only do drives and when they are finished driving the 3rd farm they start all over at the 1st. If a deer runs out in the open field it has multiple bullets coming it's way. They just slap a tag on them because most of the time they have no idea who shot it. Is that hunting?
My hunting group does some drives during the week and 2nd weekend of gun season.
Before each drive, we specify what area the standers can shoot in safely. We all have radios, and make frequent contact to alert the standers of our position in the woods.
We are hunting our own private land, and we have not had an issue in nearly 50 years of hunting this land. But we do make safety a priority each drive.
Is driving deer fair? Well considering how many escape out the back or sides of the drives, or the ones that just sit still and let us walk by, I think it's fair.
Deer Drives don't contribute to wasted game anymore than stand sitting or slow hunting. it is LAZY people (I refuse to call them hunters) who don't follow up on their shots, and exert all energy on a blood trail.
To the best of my knowledge, my group hasn't lost a deer wounded during a deer drive in over a decade if not longer.
Then again, our drives don't seem to resemble the dangerous, irresponsible chaos that many have already posted about above.
Thank goodness for sensible and ethical hunting partners.
There is a large group that drives everything they can around our land. They used to try and get into our land and drive it by saying they were tracking a wounded deer. I said fine, show me the blood trail and I will take one or two of you and track it and help drag it out. They didn't like that and thought their whole group should get to "track"(drive) our land. They quit trying that BS a few years ago and never did take me up on helping them track their "wounded deer". This same group has trespassed after I have quit hunting early when tagged out. So I do have a very bad taste towards large groups that do nothing but drive.
I like the thread crusader, You and I are usually of the same opinion. I guess, it comes down to there are ethical hunters, and there are un ethical hunters. How we hunt and choose to teach future hunters, is what ultimately decides which.
Is sitting in a treestand fair to the deer? I have a friend from out west who thinks it's not. To him hunting is spotting the animal and stalking it.
In the past two weeks we've now had threads that blind hunting is unethical and now drives are not fair. If you don't like the way someone else hunts then don't hunt that way.
Is it an effective tool for killing deer? YES
Would I partake in a deer drive? NOPE
Unfair and unsafe both describe deer drives well.
Unfair and unsafe. Blah blah blah! Everyone on here would love it if their neighbors would drive their properties so they would see deer movement come to them. Most guys tip toe around their own places afraid and paranoid that they might push something to the neighbors and the big one might get shot. My how horn porn has changed the landscape. I sure wish we could go back to the days when we were just happy to have a deer or two hanging on the pole, no matter how big. Oh wait, I still am! Hunker down line fence sitters and make sure nothing gets to the other guy. Haysoos krist!
Define a Deer drive.... A long time ago, when I was a kid, my dad would do what he called "a poke" through spots on our farm to get a deer past me. One driver, one guy (me)sitting. I'm sure most of you can appreciate a man trying to do that for his kid. I'm not real keen on large group drives, but with that being said, where do you draw the line. So I guess I would have to be pro drive. Too hard to differentiate, law wise, between a small poke drive and army of 20 guys. Group bagging is way more of an issue as far as i'm concerned.
Imo, dangerous. Look at the gunshot victims. Funny how the top state still has traditions very few states allow ie party hunting, deer drives, baiting. Make buck tags county and public/private land specific please.
Deer drives make a lot of sense. You have the posters and the drivers, with the deer in between them, being shot at. Its genius.....
Two people sitting on a fence line 300yds apart could also be dangerous. Dangerous is up to the person!
Deer Drives when done by people with intelligence and a plan keeping safety in mind should never be anything but safe.
I don't like them much, because I think the likely hood of a clean kill is not high at all. We do a drive the Sunday of opening weekend every year around noon. Its a peninsula going into a beaver swamp, three guys push it one guy stands out on the left bay side towards the end, and another on the right bay side towards the end. The pushers don't shoot, and a guy in the tree stand is south of the action in case some thing comes out the back. The closest we have come to danger is literally getting run over by deer.
I miss the days of the local guys that would spend all day Sunday driving every property around us yelling and banging pans, that hasn't been the case for a decade now. Always lots of deer movement on those days, but back than there were probably over 100 deer per square mile...not so much any more.
Every year, same thread, some good points and some misinformation. Small group "pokes" are deadly effective and very safe. You plan out safe zones of fire (just like you need to do when stand hunting) for the posters, and there are occasions in very thick cover where the "still hunters" (that's pretty much how we do our walks) also can safely shoot. We've never had an accident (a lot of sore legs!) and far fewer wounded deer in 40 years of participating in deer drives than I hear about in archery in a single fall. Yes, I'm serious! Many years we shoot 5 or more deer over the course of gun, muzzleloader and antlerless gun hunts, among 2-6 guys and gals. In pressured, fragmented farm country (and lacking a big acreage, lightly-pressured refuge to sit), it may be the only way you'll even see a deer during legal light after opening weekend of the 9-day, outside of some bolder fawns or if you luck into a deer someone else jumps. We see (and don't shoot at) far more deer than we ever target, and much of the time the shots are at standing, walking or gently loping animals. We don't "bang pots and pans" or holler or whistle or whatever you might think. It's just a sneak trying to bump deer from their beds and slowly move them past a waiting stander on the outside edges. They often double back, or sneak out the side. We target cedar swamps, marshes/marsh grass, dogwood tangles and tree plantations, among others. Sure beats not seeing anything moving! Agree with the guys who asked if sitting in heating condos on stilts is fair to the deer, and so many other examples. These deer survive more than we can throw at 'em hunting. Winter is harder on deer than deer drives ever will be.
Interesting thread. More of a debate over the ethics and/or sportsmanship of shooting at running deer. The fact is running deer can be shot and killed cleanly by those hunters who have the skill, equipment and experience. That however, rules out most deer hunters. An even further point can be made that most hunters shouldn't shoot at a deer without a rest. How many on this thread practice offhand shooting? Hunting, irrespective of weapon or hunting method utilized, boils down to a hunters ethics and their respect for the quarry and the land on which this quarry resides. The argument of fairness depends on perspective. Most of the hunters I encounter look like they walked off the front cover of a Cabela's catalog. More gear, gadgets, and technology than one can hardly believe. Fairness? Who decides? Where is that line drawn? Following the line of reason I've often seen on this site, a longbow is fairer than a recurve which is fairer than a compound which is fairer than a crossbow. I will leave the choice of legal weapon up to you. I will leave the legal method employed up to you. I will judge you as a hunter on how you approach the hunt and more importantly how you approach the quarry you intend to harvest. Hunt with passion, leave your little corner of the woods a little better for future generations, and ,most importantly, hunt with respect and reverence towards your quarry.
if baiting is unfair so are drives!
I wouldn't call drives unfair but IMO it's a method that takes very little skill (same with baiting)and is not about hunting but rather killing. Also more of a degree of danger no matter how well planned out. They are legal though so as far as I'm concerned folks can have at it. They don't happen on my property and as long as I'm not a poster, a stander, or caught in between I couldn't care less if others choose to "hunt" this way.
There is not one practice that has accounted for more injuries and deaths than deer drivers.
But one has too ask themselves if it's an ethical way to kill or shoot at a deer?
Drives on private lands seems to be a thing of the past - landowners (most) seem to try and keep as many deer on their property. Drives are counter productive if that is you goal.
Times have changed. I can remember 15 of us kids on a 1940's flatbed heading off to drive after druve. On a 10 drive day the kids made 9 of them.
We learned woodsmenship, shooting on the run, how to walk a st line, and how to fine lost drivers about twice a day.
Lots of bullets flying at the end of the drive, pretty scarey . In 1966 we killed 5 bucks on 1 drive west of antigo, Jerry Piskula shot a monster 15 point with 7 tines broken off.
Scary stuff those drives.
BT, you might think so, but almost all our drives are on private land, and some spots are worth walking again the very next day (most we wait three days or more). Remember, "drive" is relative. It's not much different than a landowner cutting wood or taking a hike or fishing the creek, etc. when done right — small group and low key. Great habitat is great habitat, and it's HOME to those deer. Some of the biggest bucks are taken on carefully planned pushes each year. Shooting galleries our drives are not. If done quietly and posters know the likely routes for travel, most of the time the deer are not running hard and even stop before leaving the cover. That's when we try to shoot, obviously.
Let's say you still hunt, sneak and peek, and jump a deer, and shoot it, or one of your partners on stand does. Is that ethical? Of course. You're not going to simply walk up on too many deer standing and feeding. Few guys are the Benoits, and fewer still have the tracts to do that sort of thing anyway.
HunterR, how do you "hunt" and how much skill does your method take, or is it simply waiting 'em out near a food source (planted, natural or dumped)?
Very effective with the right group of hunters!!!
"There is not one practice that has accounted for more injuries and deaths than deer drivers."
Interesting fact I did not know this.
I think the question should be "What percentage shot am I willing to take?" That percentage being a quick kill AND a successful harvest. Here I use the word harvest as closely as possible to the definition I found on Google har·vest ?härv?st/ noun 1. the process or period of gathering in crops.
I am willing to take a shot where I perceive my changes at a successful harvest to be somewhere above 90%. For someone else, that percentage would be different.
From what I have seen, a deer drive increase the likely hood of you seeing a deer. But that deer is likely to be at a distance and running hard. My percentage at making such a shot successfully is likely lower then 90. If I hit the animal, my percentage of successfully finding that deer may also be lower then that 90 percent. That may be due to an imperfect shot, the animal running a greater distance (due to adrenaline) or its increased likelihood of crossing a boundary.
So does a deer drive increase my chances of getting a shot I am comfortable with. With my constraint on when I do or do not pull the trigger, I believe an large organized deer drive is not in my best interest.
"There is not one practice that has accounted for more injuries and deaths than deer drivers."
Not sure about that, I bet falls from treestands are way more common.
If your intent is to "fill tags" or "get your deer" the deer drive is quite effective on the right terrain, but if you what you want is a quality hunting experience this doesn't do it for me. Having your buddies chase the animal around until you get a shot? come on. Then again I don't believe out side of medical conditions crossbows should be legal during the archery season either.
I went on 1 drive back in the early 70's...big group...hoot and holler drivers...dumbest thing I ever saw.
I think every deer in Sauk county knew where everybody was...no deer spotted...they either sat tight or snuck back.
That was enough for me. For years, 3 of us gun hunted together, sitting for the opening weekend, then switching tactics the rest of the way.
We hunted by the map and the watch...2 guys on stand and the 3rd moving a known path and time frame to a known location. We always had 2 guys standing and 1 moving...resulting in deer sneaking rather than busting out.
It was also good in cold weather as you sat for awhile and moved also.
Oh yeah...we shot deer also...it was fun.
Getting to this tread a little late but in reading the posts I have to agree with Ridge Runner's take.
I've participated in many, many drives in the last 40 years and you learn to pick your partners. Every one of the people I hunt with has passed up shots, sometimes at nice bucks, because the deer wasn't in their zone and they don't get greedy just because they want to make the kill.
A well set up drive with the right people is very safe and very effective....it's also becoming a thing of the past.
Fragmentation of larger parcels with every land owner afraid of pushing "Their Buck" onto neighboring parcels has killed most of the drive options in a lot of areas.
Another thing that's just hilarious to me is the fact that when I started out, we "Kids" didn't get a chance to stand on drives until we put our time in as the dogs. Now I find myself as the dog pushing to the kids most of the time. ;^)
The big thing about drives being "unfair" are the groups that decide "They're not home let's drive the thing quickly" And they do...
"We hunted by the map and the watch...2 guys on stand and the 3rd moving a known path and time frame to a known location. We always had 2 guys standing and 1 moving...resulting in deer sneaking rather than busting out."
That's a well-planned drive, no matter what you choose to call it. Effective for sure.
Agree with all who says you pick your partners carefully and plan your hunts with safety first so posters aren't firing into the drive and walkers aren't shooting toward posters. Have done many successful one-man walks, but obviously many pieces 2-3 walkers and 2-3 sitters are much better to cover the hideouts and known escape routes.
Let me ask the naysayers this: would you rather hunt the last four days of gun season and likely see nothing (or just fawns), or would you love a chance at seeing a buck and some does trying to sneak ahead of a quiet walker, or even trotting through? Once they're in wide-open fields, sure, they may be all-out running. We try to plan all our sits to catch them before it gets to that point, such as in tall grass edges or semi-open hardwoods/cedars. When in doubt as to whether or not a shot in the boiler zone can be made, our rule is don't shoot. We'll likely get another chance another day, or if it's near season's end, that one earned it. Additionally, you never "chase the animal around until your buddies get a shot." These aren't ground squirrels, they're whitetails! I'd bet 90 percent of what we move sneak back, escape through a spot that's not being covered or are intentionally passed up.
You think drives are easy? There's a longtime CC member who once owned a game farm and didn't want to comply with all the regs once CWD was discovered, so they attempted to depopulate. Using drives and dozens of hunters, INSIDE A FENCE, it took multiple drives over multiple weekends to kill them all. And in the end, there were far more deer than expensive helicopter surveys estimated (this guy has deep pockets and was interested in testing the research done by DNR using aerial surveys). It was great habitat, and a large area, but still much smaller than many farmland parcels many of us are able to hunt.
Are deer drives unfair? No, and they also don't result in the most accidents/injuries either. In fact, many years hunters are their own worst enemy with self-inflicted injuries.
