My source like any good informant has to remain confidential.......
I also would like to say, it woke me up, and in many ways I was a supportive of the state, and trusted them. I also believed in the WBH, the buck and bear club, whitetails unlimited and others...... My source said, its really not their fault, they also bought into the kool aid, and supported the state in good faith.....
My source also said, that one of the main problems, is though this topic is important to us as hunters, it is not so to the general public.
no matter the publication, investigative journalism is dead, and has been for a long time....
also maybe the good writers that are out there, would take their blinders off....... the source there was out reach to them, which was ignored......
this entire topic is about the northern deer herd. It has crossed party lines from Thompson to Doyle...... bottom line was to lower the herd, PERIOD...
why, because business was the main interest. both forest mgt, (private), ag, insurance and the old growth forest crowd, wanted a lower deer herd,,,, period....
So how is this accomplished. Wolves were introduced, sure there was already some, but an aggressive trapping out of Ontario, and reintroduction, sped up the process....
cheap tags, most hunters are good honest people who believe in state govt.... well cheap tags, were used to decimate the herd. the average hunters trusted the dnr, that the dnr, wanted what was best for the herd...
reality was that special interest was putting a lot of money in the coffers of the politicians, who for the most part do not hunt, or could careless
the idea that deer hunting for the north is big business is a joke..... snowmobiling and ATV and fishing contribute more to the local economy, and a large deer herd, hits the bottom line, for other business interest
so what we have today, is a deer herd of a few per square mile.....
as hunters we want more deer,,,,,,the only way we can be heard is to contact your legislator,,,,,,, forget the CC, or the NRB, they are spoon fed by special interest.....
this info comes from someone with over 40 years in the field.....
I was told that in reality, complaining about baiting and predators other than wolves, is what they want us to squabble over, and I am guilty of this.......
bottom line, a large herd is not wanted by special interest, ,,,,,
maybe an investigative reporter would get at this, other than the drivel you get form JSN or WON.....
the source has reached out, but no response from the other side.... 1
"We've" said the same thing here for years now. Between insurance companies and the CWD debacle, the numbers are way down where I hunt...waaaay down.
I haven't shot a doe in maybe 15 years, and don't foresee shooting one any time soon.
I've been hunting whitetails since the 60's and have see the ebb and flow of deer numbers, but the last several years it's been just plane ugly.
That is why I won't waste my gas to hunt up north.
Rick talks about what the CWD scare did to the southern farmland area, and it was terrible. Everyone bought into the media scare, but I will say it has bounced back where people let them. I passed over 50 shots on adult deer this archery season, so if the deer can be allowed to recover (by not shooting does), and you have less predators, and mild winters, they certainly can recover. The northern ecosystem seems a bit more fragile considering all the daggers that are against the deer herd. I still believe we as hunters are by far the worst enemy to that population.
Unfortunately, I do not own my hunting spot. Although my son and I are the only bowhunters there, it's hugely overpopulated with the gun hunters...as are the neighboring properties...and if it's brown it's down.
Hunter R...don't kid yourself, we've got wolves here now...I'm in Sauk County. Plus, we're overrun with coyotes...never saw or heard any when I was a kid, say...in the 60's, but they're thick now. My best gun season was my last...about 10 years ago...never saw a deer, killed 4 yotes.
No such effort was made in Wisconsin. The animals did it on their own with federal and state protection.
Deer management has always been a matter of balancing interests, many of them special interests. Hunters like us might want more deer, even many more. But in the big picture the forestry industry and motorists and agriculture have a lot to say about it.
If you are trying to claim there is some conspiracy to keep deer numbers low in the north, it's not going to get much traction.
The current CDAC process has forestry and transportation reps for a reason. It's right out in public, trying to get input from many sources.
With regard to investigative journalism, the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel has won three Pulitzer Prizes in the last decade, including two for investigative work. Thats fact. If you contacted them with something that had a real basis for investigation, I'm sure they'd follow up on it.
The story of low deer numbers in the north is written every year. High deer kill by hunters in the 2000s, a couple severe winters, relatively poor habitat compared to the old days, higher predator numbers than the old days. Not good for high deer numbers, but not a hidden agenda and not a need for 60 Minutes.
I work along several representatives of the WDNR including the field warden.
I would be the first to cry foul if I had the slightest notion of some type of "conspiracy" but I am not seeing it. The people I interact with are hard working and honest folks trying to make a positive change for hunters.
Does the WDNR make the right choice every time - absolutely not - they have made mistakes. No one is perfect including the WDNR.
Rut - you've always hated the DNR - what's new?
I don't hate the DNR, I especially don't hate the DNR's most overworked, under appreciated employees the Game wardens. I do however not have much faith in them at all when it comes to deer, turkey, or predator management. The everyday hard working folks within the DNR are great. Unfortunately there are also a number of lying, cheating, pencil pushing bureaucrats in the DNR.
Most journalists are DNR puppets ... b.s.
Most outdoor writers are experienced outdoorsmen who hunt, fish, hike, photograph and spend a lot of time outdoors, just like you.
In recent days, sitting and doing small group drives, we saw dozens of does and fawns, and only a few bucks. Tonight, right after one of our 10-year-old hunters scored her first deer on a slow push through wet, thick cover, we walked out, talking loudly, and right across the road (day 9 of the gun deer hunt on heavily hunted parcels) there were eight whitetails in a cut corn field.
We shot several adult does on small group drives and four more were taken on one property we hunt by stand hunters in recent days. That won't even be enough to make up for next year's fawns. On Monday eve of gun hunt there were 15 baldies on one field. Yes, a lot of farm country has a pile of deer right now. If that's buying the koolaid, count me in. We just call it trying to better balance the herd for quality deer of both sexes. We've still got a long way to go.
where did this happen in the northern deer herd?
upnorth, this happened in a lot of places according to private (and DNR) foresters who saw little to no regeneration of preferred species and high browse lines in popular wintering areas. There are parts of the U.P. where we hunted for years that look like parks in the hardwoods and with cedar browse lines so high few whitetails could reach. If not for the ag land in those areas, a lot of those deer would die. Actually, a lot did in recent severe winters up there.
"according to private (and DNR) foresters"
say no more i totally understand. total rubbish.
Turkeyhunter's Link
From the Blotter a couple of years ago...
"Warden Chris Kratcha of Southern Door County and Warden Supervisor George Protogere assisted Wildlife Management and Wildlife Health Staff from Madison with the investigation of approximately 20 dead deer in the Forestville area of Door County. The likely cause of death was due to malnutrition/starvation as a result of an extended winter and exceeding the carrying capacity for the area habitat."
Our camp is barely a stone's throw. So far this year we've killed three bucks - dandy 8,9 and 10s and six additional does. Four during the gun season and two in the early archery season.
Letting all the little bucks walk.
Not finished.
Of course I know that. Not arguing the obvious. Just responding to HunterR's "and the outdoor media continues misguiding the masses with their "farmland is overrun with deer" bs,"
The truth will set you free...
So for them to say hunting does not play a major role is ludicrous. But they are trying hard to make it so. Getting to be very little reason for folks to come this way. Very little industry in the area. Tourism is down due to above reasons. Is there any wonder why the economy is still failing here?
Naz, I don't for a moment doubt that is true. However, for as many areas that you can find that are over-browsed, someone can show you an area where that is not true. That is why a single, blanket type approach of deer management does not work. The good Dr. Kroll, who you continuously bash, suggested, and has implemented the CDACs and DMAP. Properly used, these tools can address issues on a local level and help return a balance. Your anecdotal example of over-populated deer may be true for your part of the farmland area but it certainly is not representative of all farmland areas.
Steve, there should be no question in anyone's mind that the economy in the north is heavily dependent on tourism. That said, it is still not the primary job of the DNR to maintain that economy.
However it has a devastating affect on the north economy, one that in my mind, was not important, to complete the process......
Now though we have turned the page. We have new ideas, and I believe in both the CDAC and the DMAP.
Dr Kroll was correct when he said, because of the diversification of the state, there needs to be different mgt ideas for different areas, which made sense to me.....
I am returning to the north today. Late season with good weather, and the tons of bait, that are drying up, now puts the odds back in my favor, and you have the woods pretty much to yourself......
Steve my comments on ATV and snowmobile, I should have qualified that with the area I am referring to. I have two friends who both own business in Florence Co........ They are packed with ATV's most of the year, and welcome them with open arms. also goes with snowmobiles, yes when there is snow....
they both do not count on deer hunters and have not for quite awhile, although they are surprised how many still come.....
I understand, its not Vilas Co........that is another world.....
bottom line I think, the future, is going to be better for the north, because I think we have new direction with the DNR,,,,,,,,,
I think that those who really do not hunt above Hwy 70, and spend time in those woods, have no idea, what has gone on,,,,,,,,
stay well and hunt safe
The opinion of several Wardens ? Poaching was a huge problem . The bad guys learned that deer & antlers are worth money . Poaching was safer than breaking & entering < deer don't shoot back > .
The poachers range from pros with night vision scopes to locals sitting on corn piles with a small red lite . they say its out of control in the northern 3 rd of the state .
They said they need more Wardens , big fines that local judges can't reduce , & a ban on baiting .
They also blame the trophy hunters < bowhunters > for raising the price of antlers .
Oh well , I'll go ice fishing - wait a minute , theres no ice
Oh well , I'll fish the river in the back yard - Wait a minute , theres no fish left in the river .
Oh well , I'll go Snowshoe rabbit hunting - wait a minute , theres no rabbits left .
Am I on to something ??
Plenty of privately managed land. Very little public land, and PLENTY OF PEOPLE. The available public land is beat to death, and the private land is locked up, and is not easy to get access on.
Am I on to something?
deadeye's Link
President Obama signs into law the first price increase for the Federal Duck Stamp in more than 20 years. Bringing the cost of a Duck Stamp to $25 beginning in 2015-2016, the price increase ensures that funds will be available to protect an estimated 17,000 additional acres of habitat every year.
I wonder what percentage of stamps are sold to hunters vs. others. If hunters buy the majority, the increase will probably lead to less hunters before it will lead to increased funds. Maybe thats what Obama is after, he's not a friend to the hunter- or any gun owner (except criminals) for that matter.
The stamp increase was at least a decade late. Would have been better to hit folks up before the large economic downturn, but better late than never. A lot of folks buy the stamp and never hunt, collectors and conservationists who know it's probably the greatest return on investment available today for wildlife habitat.
Obummer had nothing to do with it other than signing the raise in fee. I just wish they would use some of the money to manage and enhance some of the land already acquired.
Rut, I respectfully would ask you for any substantiation you have for that comment. In my dealings/talks with DNR personnel, they are very concerned. It is easy to blame any single entity or group but remember, the northern forests are owned and/or managed by various different agencies. And, there is a host of other factors that influence the herd, some of which the department has no control over. Some of the obvious include predators, weather, & legislators. Also, never forget that the department is charged with managing the resources for all the people and unfortunately that includes non-hunters and anti-hunters.
Concerned about what? If they want to grow the northern herd, then they need to stop increasing the number of antlerless tags every year, and need to stop the antlerless December hunts. They need to boost bear tags. These are things that they can control that will help. They need to start using trend analysis involving car-deer collisions in their population estimates, etc.
They are NOT doing those things now, despite regular and vocal feedback about the decline of whitetails in the northern 1/3 of the State.
They aren't out yet, but I'm willing to be there will be pretty conclusive evidence that most areas in the northern 1/3 of the State are down again this year in kill (if you factor out the increased number of antlerless tags given out).
I understand that they have balance all users needs, but its time the pendulum swings back to put more emphasis on what hunters and small business owners (bars/restaurants, etc) want for the deer population in the north.
Elimination of over-the-counter doe tags. Only available now to youths and select others which I think we will see changed. DMAP. CDAC's.
Your turn.
The DNR wants the money from deer hunting. They want the glory when it goes well. Well then they have to take the heat as well.
Rut, I hear you, but I don't see the irony. I've never said don't question the DNR, and in fact, I've done it myself on any number of issues through the years. Even when getting together now and then with wildlife techs and biologists in the past, we agree on some things and not on others. They're all passionate hunters, only schooled a bit more. Sometimes that helps 'em, sometimes maybe not (as in not knowing when to back off on EAB in order not to completely lose the trust of many hunters - oops, too late). But as Skook said, parts of management units can use a pile of tags while other parts not so much. It should be up to the hunters to decide where that need is greatest. I get what you're saying about some out-of-area gun hunters just wanting to fill tags. But I would argue that if it's that easy to fill doe tags, then there's enough does to sustain that harvest. When deer are down to goal in northern units (10-15/sq. in many units), that's less than a deer per 40; deer at or below goal have been proven time and again tough deer to even see. Even here, in the former "80B" of southern Door and Kewaunee counties, where I hunt, we've been between 40-80 deer/sq. of range forever pre-hunt, and you'll still hear guys complain about how there aren't the deer DNR says there are, etc. Some years we shoot 30+ deer/sq. of range here, yet those who don't have the great spots or maybe aren't the most stealthy hunters still don't get a deer and wouldn't even believe 30/sq. pre-hunt (yet when numbers are high we'll sustainably shoot that many deer year after year!). Once again, it's not all over the "unit," but those who have the better spots and want to manage for quality animals and a more balanced ratio do a lot of trimming of antlerless, year after year — yet continue to have a much higher number of deer/sq. simply because of their ideal habitat.
I am lucky to be out everyday, cutting country, tracking etc. after the month, I will post my observations of the north where I hunt.....
I have seen a few more deer than last year, but also the sign is in the woods, and there seems to be a rise in bucks, but not enough to be significant, or make the average hunter happy.....
I have never seen so many trees being marked for the saw. They have more areas to cut, than personnel, but now with the state involved, the habitat issues looks good.
Yet there is still plenty of feed, its just a herd that struggles....... Some of you say that the doe kill that now exists, is not that significant. and in following your posts, many of you who say that, do not hunt the north.....
this year, according to the numbers, the doe kill up in the buck only units, is 30 percent, I would say that is significant.......
a doe tag, to be used statewide, should be issued once, to a hunter safety grad, regardless of age, and than that's it......
those of you who argue, we now have CDAC, have to realize that CDAC, just got started, so as the years go by, this group, hopefully will listen to the hunters, and hopefully, the hunters will go to the meetings and get involved.
and than, the DNR, and the legislators, and the NRB has to uphold and listen to the CDAC, if this new system is going to work, and be qualified......
I know my wildlife manager, he is very concerned. He can not always tell the public, what he thinks, but he is also not happy with the doe kills, and the wolf situation, etc, but he thinks that the habitat issue is going the right way....
what we need is a real warden force. I mean we need some serious LE wardens, we need them to take off their mileage restrictions, and get rid of a lot of nonsense duties they get assigned, and let them really go after, POACHERS......
the north is full of them, night shooting and cheating is a real problem. they need to have a larger warden force, to address the violators in this state, where there are too many.
our wardens are stretched too thin, and have to cover to big of areas........ that is my opinion.......
stay well and hunt safe,,,,,,,,
Therein lies a huge problem. At least wolves (illegally right now) and bears can be shot, and we've got another mild start to winter which should help (I know, winter hasn't officially started yet, but it's looking good so far).
My observations so far: I checked a cam this afternoon and there are no deer left up here ;-)
I've got a rack that looks like that. I killed him during ML season. He came out of a spot that looks extremely similar. I know it isn't, just really cool coincidence. I'll try and remember to pic the rack tonight. Yours is about 8" bigger I'm guessing....score wise.
But then, I have never shot anything other than paper with my muzzleloader.
Edit: So far this year I have already measured three bucks from the area in the 150" class and two more waiting for the 60 day drying period that likely will go higher. Makes me want to let this one grow.
