WV Outdoors Radio Program and Deer #'s
West Virginia
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I downloaded the 1/2/2016 program last night after going to bed at 3 AM after watching the Eer's play. Chris Lawrence had (I believe his name is) Gary Foster from the dnr on - some of you may want to google the program and downloaded it and hear what he has to say.
He said there is still a minimal number of hunters who harvest more than one buck per year. Said the number has been steadily declining since the 90's. Also said data shows that decreasing the limit from 3 to 2 bucks would not make much of a difference. And once again stated that 1.5 year olds only make up about 35% of the total buck kill ( It was 30 something %)
He was pretty clear that reducing the limit would just hurt the revenue brought in and that the data shows no need of it and that there are not the numbers of hunters killing 3 spikes like some on here are saying.
I don't know if he had recent numbers with the new system or not but I would hope he did.
Gobbler when should we start hearing more on the numbers from the new system? I would love to know the number of hunters they are saying are in WV now. Is it 240,000 like some are saying or the 350,000 - 400,000 that some suggest?
guys, when are you going to believe what I have been telling you? The DNR couldn't reduce the buck limit from three to two if they wanted to. They can't afford it. I have been telling you guys that for years. Simply won't happen in our life time unless we have some big disease break out. (which we already have). I have been telling you guys this for years. Simply can't and won't happen. I would like to see it but it won't happen. Let me see.... What did I do with that Iowa application? LOL. I think what Mr. Foster said says it all.
Oh boy. Here we go again. You guys keep me entertained with this topic.
If a minimal numbers of hunters are killing one with a three buck limit why do think these same hunters would kill more bucks with a two buck limit? Most ten year old that I know don't care how much money they have they are going to spend it all as soon as possible.
How can there be so much denial on this forum about hunters killing more than one buck when multiple people have killed multiple bucks....,AND posted them on this site?
They need to simplify the rules and make the entire state the same limits with the same seasons. 2 deer per hunter total is plenty enough for this state. They have too many different rules such as split counties. I get tired of telling the neighbors there is no doe season on this side of the river.
Oh I don't believe there is any denial that some hunters kill multiple bucks - Heck I did it this year.
The denial is those of you who believe that all WV hunter (mostly landowners, their parents, children, grandchildren and all their cousins down to 15th cousins) kill 3 spikes each year off of 5 acres and none of them have a hunting license! The data just says differently according to the DNR.
I may be wrong but my take on what he was saying seemed like he also believes that WV cannot be compared to surrounding states that have much more agriculture land. I am not saying I believe this - just saying that was my take on what he said. Now my own take is that it will take a deer longer in WV to reach certain size because of the availability of food in some areas. I also don't think here in the Eastern Panhandle that we will get very many deer to reach 5.5+ years old because of smaller acreage and tons of hunters - even if the buck limit were lower. Now reduce the range of weapons you can use and then I think you would see a difference here in this neck of the woods at least. And I still say that if you open the bow only areas up to guns also and keep it a 1 buck limit - you will not see the number of big bucks as you do now. I may be wrong but I don't think I am.
JR - have a question for you - I know you love your land in Pendleton ( I think that is the right county) just was wondering besides hunting - is there any timber management or possibly clear cutting being done on it? I know I can be wrong but just seems like with a 1000 acres for one guy and I know there are some trespassers - I would just think you would be seeing some nicer deer on it. Any thought of planting some sawtooth oaks (produces acorns at a young age and pretty much yearly), some soft mast trees (maybe persimmons), chestnuts, do some hinge cutting?
I am not trying to be a smart butt here and I know you have problems with poachers and other idiots but I would just think things could get better for you here in WV.
Mr. Foster stated in the radio broadcast that the number of hunters killing multiple bucks is minimal and that reducing the harvest to 2 would have little effect. That's about as clear as data gets. Unless he is twisting it to fit his agenda. Which isn't the case I'd guess since the math proves that when you interpretate the data yourself. It requires no twisting to come to that conclusion.
Additionally, I'm not sure why the apples and orange analogy is even relevant to this discussion. He wasn't suggesting the current system was better than a 2 buck limit. He stated that currently, according to the data, there is no reason to even do it. That our state is very different from our surrounding states we are so often compared to. He also stated that many states have dropped the AR system's many hunters seem to want because they didn't work well. ETC.....
I would think from the scientific data we do have and, the use of common math skills, that was obvious to anyone who had looked for themselves. Why is it then that so many still suggest that there is a large percentage of legal hunters killing multiple bucks? I'm not being a wise guy either. I am just confused. Refusal to acknowledge that being pointed out here so many times over the last 2 years, it seems apparent to me that most here haven't actually looked at it themselves.
It is worth pointing out that I have twisted up some of the data. Meaning I was wrong about 78% of this state being forested. He said it was 80%. We'll take his word for it. Dang it. I hate being wrong.
As I have asked for 2 years now, by all means if you have data that contradicts the DNR's, please post it so I can see it for myself.
FWIW, I don't think he was using this years numbers from the new system. I'm just assuming that since the interview was done before Christmas.
I'll check back in a few days when opportunity allows. God Bless men.
Gobbler not all children are treated like that - except for maybe the stupid participation trophies. My children still have chores and standards that they must adhere to. And most of their friends are pretty much the same - there are a few spoiled ones but not as many as you would think.
It is sort of the same situations as all of you who think there are a ton of hunters who kill 3 spikes off of their 5 acres - a couple of bad apples can make it look like all hunters or parents are rotten. And data shows that is just not the case.
If Mr. Foster is correct and only a "minimal number of hunters harvest more than one buck", then reducing the buck limit from 3 to 2 should be no big deal. It would only affect a very small number of hunters since a "minimal number of hunters" take more than one deer anyway. If a minimal number take 2, then the number that take 3 has to be even smaller. If that's the case, let's give it a trial for 3-5 years so we can have some data to compare with. If the opportunity to take 2 is still there, they are still going to buy those extra buck stamps. And if the hunters taking 3 or more bucks a year are poachers or other unscrupulous hunters, they are buying extra stamps anyway.
I think we just like to talk about . Nothing will change. Lol
Yea but you have to have a two buck limit so you can compare the two to three buck limit. That simply won't hapoen.
You guys have to admit that for several years I have been saying it's all about the money. I hate to say I told d you so. And if reducing the buck limit to 2 won't effect many hunters according to mr Foster well then that just shows it's about the money. I certainly get that. Our DNR needs the money
I believe one reason the numbers don't show individual hunters killing more bucks is because they have other family members check in the deer or they just don't check them in. I would be interested to know how many women or children check in deer they didn't kill? I understand that the state is receiving revenue for the licenses they buy so they could probably care less.
And once again - I will say prove to me that there is an abundance of landowners who are doing this? I just don't believe there are many who do it - yes maybe a few but not in the numbers some of you believe that are doing it. I know quite a few people and I know of no one who has shot a deer and had a spouse or child check it in for them. You can sit there and think I am naive and don't know what I am talking about but there is no way that there are that many poachers running around out there - if I knew nothing about hunting and came to this site I would think half of the hunting population are up to no good! Call me naive but I think there are quite a few on here who have a Chicken Little complex...
It doesnt matter. The DNR won't gamble on losing money. I also say that there are more 1.5 year old deer being killed. But I do most of my hunting in the mountains where the deer get hammered. Also where I hunt there may no be a lot of poachers but the few poachers we have kill any most buck approaching 100 inches in August and Sept. They are catching a few of the poachers though.
Yes sir I did and had one about 2 or 3 years ago also. But - I have not heard of boat loads of people doing that either or have it happening to them. I am not saying there is not poaching going on but I don't think it is rampant by any means! Gobbler the stories and talk I hear on here make it sound like the bottom is dropping out of the sport hunting in WV. From poachers who's entire family shoot 3 spikes a year to a state who buck population has been decimated.... I don't see it that way - I am not saying poaching is not going on and maybe there could be some tweaking to the management plan that could be done - but don't sit there and tell me the sky is falling when it is clearly not. And all of that being said from a guy who had a very nice buck stolen from him just a little over a month ago. I just try to be an optimist when I can though...
Lefty, Mr. Foster stated that it was basically a very poor business decision to pass a law making the revenue unavailable from the second buck tag. That is why the state doesn't do it or hasn't yet.
I see what you are saying Greg. Where we cross lines is the fact that the only way you could logically feel the way you do about that comparison is to dismiss the data he does have. You can call it assumptions on his part. Some of it no doubt is. But, when you look at reported liscence sales versus killed bucks, it becomes more than assumption. It is as he says. The numbers aren't lying. The only question remains is truly how many liscence holders deer hunt? And, how many kill Multiple bucks? Something I'm sure the end has some form of grasp on to make the statement he made.
You are right. Bumping ones head against the same wall does get irritating to some degree. God Bless
"Lefty, Mr. Foster stated that it was basically a very poor business decision to pass a law making the revenue unavailable from the second buck tag. That is why the state doesn't do it or hasn't yet."
Bingo. That says it all. Its about the money. Nothing wrong with that I guess.I have Been saying that all along. You guys like to use analogies a lot on here. Let me give you one. Lets say you and your wife are working and your wife wants to quit but you are barely making ends meet as it is. Even though your quality of life would be better by having your wife home (well maybe not), you just can't let her retire because you know you will need the money or will have to get more creative to make ends meet. That is just what the situation is with our DNR. They need the money and can not chance a loss of money by selling less buck tags
I really do wish the dnr would take a county out of each district and try some deer management. After about 4 years they may see a change in the herd and notice more and more hunters going there to see bigger deer. If they do not see a change then they can go back to the original plan and simply sell deer tags as usual
Interesting map.I think some more counties could be managed like trophy counties.If you had a few more counties managed like the southern bow counties then maybe it would not be as hard to find a place to hunt big deer. We have hunters from the Morgantown area in our lease in mingo county. Wouldn't it be nice to have a trophy county up north also?
MP - I like that idea about more trophy areas! You will have some who will say it will be too hard to enforce but no matter what is done there will always be some poaching or illegal activity that will happen.
For years here at the March Meetings I have heard that there was going to be changes here in the Eastern Panhandle - from making Jefferson and Berkeley Shotgun only during any gun season and that Sleepy Creek WMA was going to Antler Restrictions. I was told several years all of those plans were put on the back burner because of CWD though.
I think some tweaks like your idea would be very interesting to see how things would turn out.
They just need to raise non resident tags to compensate for second buck tag revenue lost, in a couple years when the bucks are getting bigger non residents would not complain. While were dreaming maybe they can make Kanawha bow only.
Like I said ,1 county from each district.I'm sure there would be some moaning and groaning from some hunters wanting it to stay the same but there is some moaning and groaning wanting to try something to make things better. For example,Clay,Wirt,Pendleton(for J.r.) and Wetzel counties as 1 buck areas. Districts 4 and 5 have the bow counties. It would be easier to get data by using a whole county rather than and area of a county. And as we know ,data is what is needed.
Mr. Foster stated that it was basically a very poor business decision to pass a law making the revenue unavailable from the THIRD buck tag. That is why the state doesn't do it or hasn't yet.
Don't change what he said. He was saying a two buck limit wouldn't do anything. He was throwing out age class numbers, many of which are highly questionable when you compare to other states. Like exactly how do we kill almost half as many 1.5 year olds as Pennsylvania when Pennsylvania doesn't kill anything below a five or six point in the entire state and has a one buck limit? Or the fact that we kill a larger percentage of 3.5 year old bucks than Ohio and are one percentage point less than Kentucky? Or the fact that according to statistics we kill less 1.5 year olds than almost every other state but according to our own bow hunter survey, roughly twenty plus percent of all deer seen in the woods are spikes?
my county is the only county in the state that is different. most hunters in my county only kill 1 1/2 year old deer but I am sure Mr. Foster took all the counties into consideration. And btw not all the 1 1/2 year old deer are spikes.
didn't say all 1.5 year olds are spikes. Just quoted data collected by the dnr through the bowhunter survey.
I've never hunted in the southern bow only counties but it is my understanding that there is a one buck limit down there.
Now I don't know if the data Mr. Foster had regarding the buck kill just lumped all the buck kills into one category, but when factoring whether hunters killed more than one buck, shouldn't all the hunters/bucks killed from those southern bow counties be excluded from the data? Seems to me that adding kills from those counties as "hunters just harvesting one deer" would skew the results for the rest of the state. The numbers down there may not be large enough to make a huge difference, but nevertheless, they should be excluded...in my opinion.
Well yea that is comparing apples to oranges
Either lots of people are wearing blinders or just not wanting to face the facts.....The DNR numbers he stated simply dont add up or make sense...Babysaph hit it on the head, its about the money...thats what they care about...nothing more.
Honsetly, how many people do you know that shot more than 1 buck in WV this year?
It would be easier for me to count the ones who didnt...
All this arguing about how many bucks you should be allowed is not worth a hill of beans. If we only had a 1 buck limit that Supposedly would help increase the buck population and the quality of bucks don't fly with me. The only thing it would help would be the poachers, giving them more bucks to kill. Yeah I turn in anyone I can but they are behind every tree, so to speak and if you catch 1 there are 3 more taking there place.
Poaching is a serious problem in the southern coalfields and they are producing giant bucks.
I agree with hookman. This is all a waste of time. I have been saying that for years. I though poaching was only bad where I hunt. I could write you a book on poachers. They are catching some but it is rampant. It is all about the money. Period.
OMG!!!! Gobbler - I bet the next thing happening after the last post of your's is you will meet up with WVMountaineer and me and sing - Kumbaya! LOL
welcome to the Darkside! LOL
Everybody knows that bucks in the 4 counties are 140 or better by the time they are 1 1/2. They are born with basket racks
^^^Boom^^^
We transformed the herd in one year. Then we harvested our gains.
Gobbler you must be getting waaaay off the road.,lol and i agree that reducing the buck kill could produce more of these type deer but it won't happen anytime soon due to the money.,
Gobbler - I agree with ya on the culture change. Lets face it 10 years ago there were few who put out food plots or minerals - I would say apples and corn were the course and it was strictly for baiting.
Now - how many guys do you know who practice some kind of land management? It may be as simple as minerals or more elaborate efforts as food plots or timber management. And how many hunters are already letting younger deer walk and holding out for a older deer? Heck - it is even happening during does season - a shift has started and it will only pick up steam and keep rolling.
You know I signed the petition for better buck management thinking it was a good thing - but right now I am seeing more of a group who just want one thing and that is a 1 buck limit. Not knocking their efforts and they have every right to do so - but there were some of us who sign on because we wanted better deer management through many others ways than a 1 buck limit which for me - means less hunting time in WV and to search for other states to hunt in. It is for that reason why I am asking that group today how I can get my name off the petition. I am not saying they are a bad group but I can not lend my name to a group who eventually will threaten my hunting time.
I really don't see how a one buck limit will help WV. It really stinks because it will also cause me to spend less time with my family to have to go else where to hunt - so I know which for me will suffer and it would be hunting because my family means everything to me.
I keep on hearing about KY and OH - well what about Wisconsin, Iowa or Missouri - pretty sure they don't have 1 buck limits and they produce some mighty fine bucks with out having to limit their residents to just one buck!
In another thread I remember someone talking about how a one buck limit in the bow only counties allowed them to kill such trophies and there was a pic of 2 or 3 hunters with very nice bucks. My questions are if WV goes to a 1 buck limit statewide - 1. why keep those counties as bow only then? 2. I am sure all other counties will remain the same with bow or gun being able to be used during the proper season - so do you expect the same results as bow only counties are having now? 3. If you say yes to the previous question then I would ask you tell me which would give better results changing bow only areas to a 2 buck limit but they remain bow only or changing to where bow and guns are allowed but it remains a 1 buck limit area? My answers to the questions above are for 1-if it is a 1 buck limit statewide then there is no reason to keep them bow only 2-in some counties you would see an improvement with 1 buck only but in the more heavily populated areas it would not make much of a difference because the small buck you or I would pass up - one of the hunters who have not been successful will shoot a younger buck. All hunters will not be influenced to take a older buck because of a one buck limit like some of you suggest. Remember the success rate each year is below 30% - do you think a younger buck you passed up won't run by a hunter who has not shot a buck in several years or never shot one before? 3- say what you want about bow counties being a 1 buck limit and the 1 buck limit being the main reason for better bucks but don't be fooled by the guys who say so - yes it is a combination of many factors but and its a BIG BUT - the main influence for better and bigger bucks is - limited range weapons - BOW ONLY!
JayD. don't worry about it. It won't happen. Financially impossible. Its is just us guys talking
Jayd,
You are wrong about the group being a one buck limit group. Many people in the group want a one buck limit, but to say that is what the group is about is false. Better buck management includes so much more than any limit, even though lowering the limit, or protecting bucks in any manner, is the goal.
However, the group is also about education and public perception of ownership of a precious resource. Social factors can change the face of deer hunting in WV.
So you might see people in the group who support a one buck limit, but you will also find people who want a two buck limit. You will also find Poole interested in food plots, she'd hunting, and general outdoor fun.
I am not saying it is a bad group but one that is leaning more every day towards something that I think is worse for WV than what we have right now. Yes there are some who favor a 2 buck limit like I do but every time I look on their FB page it is some one pushing for a 1 buck limit. I actually sent the page a pm and told them I was thinking of doing so - we had a good chat but it was sort of agreed that the numbers of the group are leading towards a 1 buck limit. I am going to give it a little more time and actually post my thoughts and opinion and see where it leads to and go from there. I just can't support a group where the majority if things went their way it would mean less time for me to pursue one of my passions. Plus - I am positive that just from losing me would not hurt the group one bit LOL
Yea once I heard Mr. Foster confirm what I always thought I don't have much hope of getting the buck limit reduced. Especially since he said not many people kill more than one buck. There is no reason for them to decrease the limit.
I agree with gobbler . If you hold out for a 140 class deer then you will be able to sit all day every day. Trust me. You just have to pass up the bucks you are used to killing.
I'm not so sure about not many people killing more than one buck. Before telec heck did they clump check tags by names to know how many people were killing more than one buck? Did the hunter who killed a buck with a bow in Nicholas and a buck with a muzzleloader in Jefferson get counted for two bucks and all that info put together for every Hunter in the state? How difficult would it be to have one mans check tag and check 55 other counties to see if he or she killed another buck in another county? You can't go by additional buck tags checks because that doesn't tell the story.
IMO, this year is the only year they will truly be able to tell how many hunters harvest more than one buck a year. I have heard that it was previously determined by a phone survey. I know I was never contacted by phone and doubt any of you have been either.
Not to mention with the addition of crossbows, we have people killing bucks that wouldn't be otherwise. I'm not saying that is a bad thing, I am just saying we need to be cognizant of increased success and bag limits.
Good point Sunday. I think they had a lil ole lady that counted those tags in a back room. They fired her now that they have telecheck.,lol
And it doesn't matter if every hunter killed 3 bucks. The state needs the money and the farm bureau needs dead deer. And what about the bucks killed on crop damage. Did the lil ole lady count those? Oh wait you can't kill bucks with crop damage.
JR - the group I mention is growing pretty good - I saw a post on FB where they are pushing towards like 3600 to 3700 members. That is a pretty darn good membership in such a short period of time. Then you add into it that a highly valued Biologist (DR. Dave) writes an article saying it is time for a change - to me this means it is more than just a few average Joes having a chat about it on the state's bowsite page. It is growing like a snowball rolling down a mountainside - So the push is on for a 1 buck limit which is fine and everyone has their right to that opinion. I just don't agree with that opinion I have decided to make the push to stop that from happening. There are other states that produce 3.5 or older bucks besides both Kentucky or Ohio that have higher limits - so I don't think we need to always use Ohio or KY as the example states.
I am sure for some it may result in more times in the stand but for quite a few it will mean less and I am one of those. I just sort of find in awkward I have people telling me it will mean more time for me in the stand - when those people go to other states and hunt bucks. In Dr Dave's article - he said there was only one person (which was me) who on the FB page said it would mean less time and he said he disagreed that it would amount to more recreation time for many. When he was disagreeing with me he said he couldn't respond anymore because he was literally walking out the door to go hunt Kentucky! SO your darn right it means more recreation time if you plan to hunt another state! And when I say that I am not bashing anyone who goes to another - more power to you if that is what you want to do - just don't force that idea on me.
Surveys have been done in those one buck states that ask how they like it and if it has reduced hunting for them and supposedly the numbers all favor people fully supporting a one buck limit. One question I did not see in the report was to ask how many of the hunters of 1 buck limit states go else where to hunt. Seems to me a 1 buck limit just promotes hunters to go to different states which in the long run - you would think helps the DNR of each state raise more revenue. What does it it do for the family though - hunters spending their weekends running to this state or that state to hunt while more than likely the family stays home. At least for those hunters that can afford to go and hunt elsewhere.
You know there was talk about how some disagree with the way our DNR is interpreting the numbers and how they may be feeding us crock well I believe this talk of more recreation time with a 1 buck limit is a bit too rich for my appetite!
Hunts are more likely to stay home when we have some decent deer hunting statewide. Why do I go to Indiana? Because the deer hunting is better, not because I have killed a buck in wv. Those trips are planned well in advance of taking an archery deer, and revolve around better hunting, not increased opportuntities because you tagged out in your home state.
Also, how can we know the percentage of hunters harvesting additional bucks when we didnt truly know how many hunters we had?
PLUS IF 5% OF HUNTERS ARE KILLING SECOND BUCKS THAT IS 15,000 BUCKS A YEAR ASSUMING WE HAVE 300K HUNTERS.
NOW IF, 5% OF BUCKS KILLED ARE ADDITIONAL BUCKS, THEN WE ARE ONLY KILLING ROUGHLY 3,500 BUCKS A YEAR ON ADDITIONAL BUCK TAGS.
FOR REFERENCE, BETWEEN IN 2014 THE HAREST DROPPED BY ROUGHLY 25,000 THE YEARLY AVERAGE. IN 2015, WE HAD A EXCEPTIONAL YEAR DUE TO A PREVIOUS HARVEST DECLINE,MAST, WEATHER. DOESNT MATTER HIW, WE SAVED SOME BUCK DEER FROM THE PREVIOUS YEAR, BUT YOU HAVE TO ADMIT THAT 15,000WOULD CHANGE THE HERD.
I agree Sunday. I go to different states to kill bigger deer. Not to hunt more. I can hunt from beginning of the season to the end in WV.
JayD . Don't worry about what Facebook says. Doesn't matter how many members they get. Can't hapoen because of funds. I have been saying that all along and Mr. Foster just agreed with me.
JayD. Just quit shooter those smaller deer and hold out for a big one and you can hunt from the first day to the last. And tell your family to let you go to another state to hunt. :)
LOL JR going to another state for a whitetail just isn't my cup of tea - just love hunting them here in good ole WV! Now I am working on an archery Alaskan Moose hunt though! That has been on my wish list for a bit and been getting to know some people from there and actually found out my wife has some family there 2 years ago so plans are in the making! You will be surprised here in about 3 to 4 years in the changes that will be made! LOL Hey - the past two years of hunting with compound has been enough for me - I like the bow I have and may hunt with it some but going back to traditional - going to tone down the poundage some and just realize I don't need to shoot a 65 to 70 lb recurve or longbow - talking to Rodney White about the Stalker he makes and looking at the KT-44 from Little Sucklings Bows. They are both short recurves - going to have one made in the 50 to 55 lb range. Hey if ya need any help with your place let me know I have a ton of equipment and I love doing that stuff!
I like hunting em here too. And I hunt from the beginning of the season til the end. I just like to kill big bucks once in a while and cnt do it here where I hunt. I have 99 acres in Iowa. If you can get away from your family for a week I'll take you. I'd like for you to see what I'm talking about.
I like hunting em here too. And I hunt from the beginning of the season til the end. I just like to kill big bucks once in a while and cnt do it here where I hunt. I have 99 acres in Iowa. If you can get away from your family for a week I'll take you. I'd like for you to see what I'm talking about.
Take one week November 5-12 anywhere in the Midwest and ones eyes will be open to how much we are missing out on.
Lol. Just make sure you get waaaay off the road.
JR - thanks for the offer!!! I think you need to change your name to babytrump - just how many places do you have land? LOL just kidding - I do appreciate the offer and hopefully can take ya up on the offer! I think you will be surprised how quickly you will start seeing some difference here in WV with the program you are about to begin.
I have land in Hawaii, Iowa and WV. Thats all.
I won't ask about the white tails you chase in Hawaii!
I am just teasin ya - glad you can enjoy it!!!
Do you get to go to Iowa much? Is it hard for you to get a tag?
Do they have spikes in Iowa and Hawaii?
Not Hawaii. but they do in Iowa but I have never seen one. I have only seen deer with racks on them. But I know they have to have them.
Hawaii has decent axis deer, mouflon sheep, feral goat and hog hunting on several of the islands.