Those kids that are still hunting participated in the youth hunt 1 year and then in the regular season from then on.
Use the youth hunt to introduce new hunters to the sport, maybe we can hook a few for life???
We have enough hunters already for the amount of land available open to hunting.
If theres such a shortage of hunting there wouldn't be the crowding of hunters on public land that has the game and habitat?
Open the restricted private land if that would ever be a possibility and the hunting numbers would take care of themselves,goofy age deals and special seasons are a bandaid for a major wound,along with some other motives.
In the end, IMO, it comes down to finding those who like the outdoors or have an interest in the outdoors and helping show them that just BEING in the outdoors is what the experience is all about and that hunting (and ultimately killing game) is way down the long tail of where the enjoyment comes from. Yeah, I know...sounds nice. But for many, the kill IS what it's all about. If that's the mentality we continue to hold on too, it isn't going to get better.
My family wasn't hard core. We grew up hunting public land, and still do today. We have a few wallhangers, but most years we struck out or managed just to fill the freezer. But my Dad did it right. He got us started young just being outdoors. He took us to woods to just explore. He showed us how to read sign, identify birds and plants, etc. I guess in the end, it was more about just spending time with our Dad that kept us going. Eventually, he introduced us to weapons. Then he introduced us in to taking game (birds and small game). It was a very slow approach, but each phase brought us closer to "real hunting", and challenged us (me and bro) to do harder and more complex things. In the end, it lead us to deer hunting. Would we have taken to deer hunting even if we didn't do that? Probably. But I can say that our path talk us there was more enjoyment about just being IN the woods than taking anything OUT of it.
Perhaps in today's world we just don't have the time or prioritization to do things like that. But God willing, that's what I plan on trying to do w/ my young children.
On this and on other threads, it is a fairly common theme for people to tell us that the hunt itself is the experience and not the killing of animals. While I agree 100% that I enjoy the experience, have we all forgotten why there is something called hunting? Our ancestors hunted not for sport or experience but for sustenance. When was the definition of hunting re-defined and by who?
That's a pretty bold statement! Where do you get your facts???
Where is the reasoning behind that? All of the young hunters I took the past have used vertical archery equipment and not crossbows during the archery season and high powered rifles or shotguns during the youth hunt and gun season. Not one crossbow in the bunch.
My 81 year old Father In Law is the only one who has changed from a bow to a cross bow, and he has hunted all of his life.
Again pure speculation and garbled information without data to support your sentence on knowing it doesnt happen. Unless of course common sense played a part in your writing it.
It's been a strange relationship with him in the woods. He seems to wana go, but when it comes down to it, I don't think he has that passion. He would rather sit inside and play video games. He sees deer almost every time he's out, but this last year he didn't wana go.
I took him out shining during the rut 2 years ago. I was getting pretty pissed because he couldn't stay off his dam phone. Now I've spent many many nights shining, and this night we saw 2 absolute giants. We had a buck cross the road right in our headlights and he was at least a 160. The buck stood in the road. I was super pumped because of how rare this sighting was and he seem excited for about 1 minute then he was back to his phone. I still haven't forgotten that day, but I'm sure he has. Maybe he just has too many other priorities and he will come back to hunt? He has done a few years of the youth hunt, but that was with his grandpa on a different property. His dad doesn't hunt and doesn't really instill the woods passion. Maybe that's part of the problem?
It's been a strange relationship with him in the woods. He seems to wana go, but when it comes down to it, I don't think he has that passion. He would rather sit inside and play video games. He sees deer almost every time he's out, but this last year he didn't wana go.
I took him out shining during the rut 2 years ago. I was getting pretty pissed because he couldn't stay off his dam phone. Now I've spent many many nights shining, and this night we saw 2 absolute giants. We had a buck cross the road right in our headlights and he was at least a 160. The buck stood in the road. I was super pumped because of how rare this sighting was and he seem excited for about 1 minute then he was back to his phone. I still haven't forgotten that day, but I'm sure he has. Maybe he just has too many other priorities and he will come back to hunt? He has done a few years of the youth hunt, but that was with his grandpa on a different property. His dad doesn't hunt and doesn't really instill the woods passion. Maybe that's part of the problem?
My son started hunting at 10 and is now 16 as of December. He shot a bear at 10 as part of the LTH Bear program and has since killed 4 deer with his gun and 3 with his bow. He never did the Youth Hunt or Sandhill. He is hooked on hunting and I hope he stays that way.
I personally don't feel the Youth Hunt is necessary to recruit hunters. They will either be into it or not. They just need the introduction and the Youth Hunt is not paramount to that at all. They are also tougher than people want to give them credit for. If they are motivated to hunt at all, they will withstand the elements and be happy to be participating. I have no issues with the Youth Hunt, I did it once, but I just don't feel it should be touted as a recruitment tool because it is not one per se.
Rut, not any longer but I did for about 30 years.
A guide only sells his guiding service. The hunter buys his license, just as you or anyone else does, and is allowed to take the same animal(s) as you.
If they are penned deer, they are not the property of the state but the property of the owner, who is free to do with them as he pleases, just as a farmer can with his sheep, cows and pigs.
So many other factors to list such as politics and media also contribute. Kids are more easily convinced and don't want to be associated with negative things, Guns have been portrayed in many instances as being dangerous. Animals are portrayed as beautiful, look at Cecil and the whitetail shot in the park with archery equipment.
Simply said there are a lot of contributing factors which are leading to the death of hunting. These are the few I have really noticed.
Jimbo, any suggestions?
Fast forward a few years and I was now 21 with two young boys and a wife. My stepdad had been very sick for years and had just died. I knew I wanted my boys to at least have a chance to decide for themselves so that fall I decided to gun hunt. I shot two deer but it still wasn't my thing. The next year a coworker let me borrow a bow (the same one I still use). I went out on opening day of bow season in a winter coat and thick camo face mask. I had an AWSOME unsuccessfull hunt and was hooked.
Now, fast forward another few years, I had taken the older boy with me a few times but it just wasn't his thing. So, I took my younger son at 6 yrs old. He couldn't sit still or keep quiet but we had a great time. That day started an opening day bow tradition for him and I that lasted up until this year. Due to work and football neither of my sons were able to participate in the youth gun hunt. My oldest son still has no real interest in hunting. My youngest son (I think due in large part to this falls close calls and failures) is absolutely hooked. He will be a bowhunter for life.
My point is, it's either in you or it's not. While I like the youth hunt I don't think it is any way a determining factor in developing a lifelong hunter. Failure and close calls create a determination to eventually get it done.
I concur 100%. The Youth Hunt is being touted as a recruitment tool and it is not. Kids either want to hunt or they don't or they can take it or leave it. The weather won't affect those that want to do it. Kids just need an opportunity to try. The Youth Hunt is not a requirement for that. My daughter had it and she quit. My son did not do it and he's hooked.
Sorry to hear about your stepdad Crusader. I hope your family is doing OK.
Do these two practices make any real difference in creating a life long hunter. I personally think its "like a fart in the wind". Immediately noticeable but quickly gone. If we had unlimited resources then, yes we should spend those resources on these methods. Since we all know our resources (financial, political, time) are limited, I want to see the effects documented.
I think the real problem is a distribution problem, Hunters are where the deer are not and vice versa. This is an access problem. The longer we ignore that problem the greater the problem grows.
RJN, how can that be? There are multiple people on multiple threads on these pages that declare the only way a new or young hunter will become a lifelong hunter is if they go without. Seeing or harvesting a deer will only prove to show these new hunters that this sport is too easy and then they will quit, looking for more challenging endeavors. (with sarcasm)
+1
Unfortunately it seems as if the WDNR isn't interested in managing the resource to provide more opportunities for sightings, which very likely would help to attract and retain interest. IMO if their goal is to get more kids and people "hooked" they are miserably failing and have been for some time now.
As for the youth hunt I don't believe it's necessary and that has nothing to do with me being worried some kid (or his dad) will shoot "my" buck. The youth hunt is just more coddling and making things easy which probably does more damage than good.
Pasq - a question for you. Can you offer any reasons why there should not be a youth hunt?
I believe a special hunt for youth and new hunters helps recruitment. I never said it is the complete answer to hunter recruitment, despite what you try to insinuate.
To this point you have completely avoided any attempt to explain why you feel a mentored hunt is bad. Even though I doubt I will get an answer, I'll still check back.
Lastly, it is comical that you would call my argument "dumb" when you continue to expose your lack of comprehension as to what I have said. Special hunts for "senior citizens, polish people, people with red hair, people with big feet, lesbians, etc"?? Now that is dumb.
My position. Mentoring is a great thing, and can be done in the same season as everybody else. That is if you have people who are willing to sacrifice their own time to take someone with. The idea that it has to be done during a special season is foolish. Why cant the same mentoring be done by the same people during the regular season? Im for teaching kids the reality of things. Not a bunch of smoke and mirrors, like allowing them to shoot antlerless deer in the north when its damn evident they shouldnt be. What does that teach them in the long run? Let me guess, it doesnt matter, at least they got to kill something. Right?? I cant stand coddling people in any way, shape, or form. Its never good for the person in the long run.
The facts claim you keep clinging to was said in direct response to the two weapon portion of the mentored hunt bill. I stick to my claim. When there are 39 other states that allow two weapons between a mentor and the mentee, there is much available data as to the danger or safety of this type of situation. The data from these states proves this to be a safe endeavor. In addition, the FACT that youths are now able to handle firearms at ranges could also contribute as to the safety or danger of them doing so. I am not aware of any increase of accidents due to this. If so, I am more than willing to take that into consideration. To this point and time, you and others, have still chosen to ignore that point completely.
You said, "My position. Mentoring is a great thing, and can be done in the same season as everybody else. That is if you have people who are willing to sacrifice their own time to take someone with." I would agree. What troubles me about your statement is the last part, where you say "That is if you have people who are willing to sacrifice their own time to take someone with." What troubles me about that is that there are people who may not be willing to sacrifice their hunting season for another. This legislation does not hurt that person but it does take away potential mentoring time from new hunters. With that in mind, tell me, why would you want to punish the new hunter by taking away an opportunity they might get to enjoy if both hunters are able to have a weapon?
We are loosing to machines/electronics. We are losing to technology. Inclusion of crossbows into the archery season for able-bodied anybody shows how desperate the agency is to retain hunters.
When children are scorned that hunting is cruel by either friends or what they see on media, it has an affect. All things people have mentioned are additive toward us losing hunters. I too tried to get my kids interested in hunting. They started, but no longer hunt. There is no single reason, but an additive list of reasons, not one I can think would stop them by itself.
I believe that to be successful, we need to treat kids like we treat introducing dogs to gunshots. You start baby steps with low noise to not make them gun-shy and build them up to a Howitzer. Kids need to tag along and shoot pigeons and gophers. The biggest showstopper is forcing kids to get up early and stay out longer than they want. If there is one thing I remember, it was my Dad's patience in not making me stay out in the cold. But again, for whatever the reason, I am an outlier. I am the only one of my siblings who still hunts. You have to have a passion for it.
+1 - Careful with having your own opinion when it differs from certain others. Soon you'll be called names and told how ignorant you are. Funny thing too, the stats in the other direction are never posted. We are told they exist, but they are never posted yet you are forced to back your position with stats.
Ignorant: 1.lacking knowledge or awareness in general; uneducated or unsophisticated:
Good advice. +1 Happy
Ignorant: 2.having an opinion that differs from Capt Mike.:
Why guess? The DNR has all the demographics from license sales. Age, sex, height, and weight. This does not have to be emotionally driven the facts are out there.
Can you ever disagree with someone without calling them names or insulting them?
Pasq, I honestly answered your question. Are you going to ignore mine?
What is my opinion that you are discounting?
"Ignorant: 2.having an opinion that differs from Capt Mike.:
Found 9 posts above. My definition came directly from an online dictionary. Yours was simply opinion.
That you pretend to have any idea of how I roll from discussions on a site like this only points to your ignorance (I know you like that term :))
To answer the original posters question....IMO, we don't know if it's working as we don't know what the recruitment would have been without the youth hunt. But if we gained 1000 new hunters vs none, I would tend to think of it as a success. Also, the tens of thousands of youth, who wouldn't have had the opportunity w/o, at least had the experience. So I would say it is a success.
CaptMike's Link
Now time will tell if your interest is truly in learning something or simply trying to throw bombs with no accuracy.
Why wouldnt those same youth be able to be mentored and hunt during the regular season?
Again, I was answering the original posters question not opening a debate. There is absolutely no way to judge if the program has brought any more hunters as if there wasn't becauze there is no parallel universe to compare the two results.
LTL jimbow. I really have no concern about youth shooting a few thousand deer over a two day hunt. I much rather have a kid shoot a monster buck then myself. And I mentor my daughter bowhunting during the youth hunt.
Has anyone thought that maybe it is not the program not retaining interest but the quality of mentors?
- How many youths (under age 17) were there prior to the inception of the youth hunt?.
- How many youths are there now since the inception of the youth hunt?
- What was the average recruitment % of youths each year prior to the youth hunt?
- What is the average recruitment % of youths with the youth hunt?
- What % of youths who participated in a youth hunt, also participated in any regular season hunt?
- What % of youths participated in a youth hunt?
- What % of kids who hunted as youths, still hunt from ages 17-20, and 21+ and of those what % participated in a youth hunt?
- Survey the adults/kids still hunting who participated in the youth hunt as to whether they felt the youth hunt played a key role in them still hunting.
- Survey the adults/kids still hunting who would be hunting today regardless of the existence of a youth hunt.
Acquire this data and you have something concrete to actually work with. Without it, you have nothing but conjecture and assumptions.
I have. You could be on to something, the quality of the mentors. I've also thought it makes no sense to have the youth hunt at all, these youngsters can be mentored during the regular gun deer season just like many of us (who still hunt) were. Why do they need a special hunt? Coddling doesn't make life-long hunters. That said, the excuse I hear the most to keep the youth hunt is that without it many of these kids wouldn't have the chance to be mentored because some mentors might not want to take time away from their OWN deer hunting to mentor a kid. Really? But wait, what kind of mentor is the guy that will only do it when it's convenient for him and not cut into his own hunting time? I'll tell ya, the kind of mentor that IMO is probably not a good one anyway. So yeah, I have thought about the quality of the mentors. Now I can't help but wonder if we didn't have this cater-to-the-kids early youth hunt maybe these same kids would be getting mentored during the regular deer season by better "quality" mentors thus potentially creating more life long hunters?
The youth hunt is about opportunities!!! Plain and simple.
It offers an opportunity for Fathers/Mothers/Grandfathers/Uncles/Aunts and Grandmothers and all the rest of the family to take time in the woods with a youth family member or neighborhood kid.
Not only that but they can, once again hunt with that same kid during the regular gun deer season if they wish to.
"Oh no way...they wouldn't hunt the regular season" Bull puckies they wouldn't! And we do!
Its about exposing hunting age kids to the world of deer hunting both in October and November - more opportunities for families to get into the field!
If this hunt only benefits 250 kids across the State of all the kids that could possibly join in - what's wrong with that? Nothing!
How does this hurt any of us? Unless your concerned with some 12 year old shooting "your" buck!
And, having this hunt negatively effects us how?
Some say we are too soft - I say bullshit! As a kid I would have chopped my left arm off with an axe to spend those days with my Father.
It's not about being too soft or too hard - it's about family, making time in the woods and passing along your knowledge of der hunting to a youth.
My son and daughter have spent every youth hunt with me! They both still hunt except my daughter couldn't make last years hunt due to a new job with the State Patrol.
"Cater-to-the-kids" Really? If taking my son or daughter or the neighborhood boy out to my deer blind for an early morning hunt is catering - so be it!
I have taken not only my kids but several other non-related kids on hunts as well as adults on the LTH program.
Every minute was well spent and I, not only the participants enjoyed the hunting and interaction!
I don't even believe we are having such an incredibly foolish argument concerning this!
It certainly defies any amount of logic! Can people be anymore selfish?
The Youth Hunt has become a recruitment tool teaching kids how to violate and work around the law so fathers can fill the family freezers. (especially in the northern zones) It has also pitted neighbor against neighbor. It has taken away as the " wdnr" says (fair and equal opportunity for all hunters).
All the youth hunt is doing is teaching instant gratification without working for it. We are teaching kids they can achieve their goal or the ( fathers goal ) without following societies rules. Without following all the rules life is easier. And that's what's wrong with society now. (I want Instant Gratification is Now)!
I'll support the youth hunt ! One time. When you graduate from hunter safety the youth gets one free tag that year. If they can't get hooked and appreciate deer hunting that year they never will. With the on slot of the xguns parents and grandparents have the whole fall to teach their kids to deer hunt without infringing on others who now have to wear blaze orange.
Why do kids and parents need a "special" two days to learn to appreciate deer hunting ? And don't give me that the weather is nicer Bull $hot.
Time to put some limitations on the youth hunts.
The quality mentor is the one who takes the kids during all seasons and sacrifices their time for the kids putting the kids first and foremost. I do that and have done that all the time since my kids could hunt. I sat with them in gun season, without a weapon, because they were the ones to do the shooting. Still do it now in a different way, giving my son all the best stands according to the cameras. He killed 2 bucks this year with his bow, one in WI and one in MI and had far better sightings than I had because he was always put in the hotter locations. I would have it no other way. The kids don't need the coddling. They are either into it or they are not.
For the record again - I don't think the youth hunt hurts anything - I just don't think it is needed and it is falsely being touted as this save the face of hunting recruiting tool, which it is not.
If the statistics behind all my questions above cannnot be produced, the argument that the youth hunt is a valid recruiting tool is nothing but conjecture.
Those that oppose this hunt are selfish, self centered, uninformed people that really don't have a clue as to what this hunt allows. What it (youth hunt) allows for is not only the/a youth hunting but the parent/mentor hunting along side them for two sticking days out of deer season that is open from September to January!
People that oppose this hunt are the same people that do nothing to better our sport. Those opposed are NOT, Hunter Safety Instructors, they are NOT Outdoor Educators and they have NOT even participated in the hunt themselves to any great degree.
What is this talk about "coddling" and "teary eyed drama" - It's hunting you "numbskulls" - we hunt, track deer, look for rubs, deer trails, make some lasting memories and enjoy the outdoors as a family or close friends.
It forges new bonds, makes for great stories to be told over and over. Sometimes we kill a deer and most times we just "kill time" enjoying the outdoors together!
So what is so freaking wrong with that?
Taking a young adult, exchanges stories, learning hunting skills, talking deer hunting and sharing a sandwich and a soda!
You people that are opposed to this really need to do some soul searching - because opposition to anything that promotes family time and hunting just defies any amount of logic!
The youth hunt IS NOT designed to make life long hunters! IT IS NOT!
It is designed to provide those opportunities to those who wish to get involved with mentoring/our kids and our youth that OPPORTUNITY to do so! IF we develop a life long hunter because if it - GREAT!
And because we have a YOUTH HUNT...how does that negatively effect any one of you selfish, narrow minded, self-centered whiners?
I'd like to know? I can only figure that somehow you thinking Johnny or Mary will shoot your trophy buck!
Ask yourself this question. What am I doing to promote the sport of hunting and getting youth involved?
Many here will answer ....Uhhhhhh nothing!
Some people just make me sick!
Personally and IMO, I believe opening up the youth hunt to mentored women would benefit recruitment/retentions greatly. Women in the outdoors are the best recruitment for youth. If mom does it, children want to do it. That's if you really wish to see more recruitment.
My daughter had no interest in hunting, just archery. after spending time in the woods with mom and seeing her hunt for a couple years, she wanted and still does do it.
It was not long ago, Sec. Frank put out the need to knock deer populations down because of the diminishing hunter numbers. I'm just about 100% sure, Republicans will not hold on to both houses and Gov office forever. Therefore, the philosophy may come back.
Or...do you really want to see more recruitment?
I've not only bonded with my kids on the youth hunts, but kids that don't belong to me as well. I look forward to the youth turkey hunt, youth deer hunt and youth duck hunt.
While taking my own kids was a blast for the whole family, I enjoyed taking the kids out that I wasn't related to just as well.
This weekend I will drive 6 hours - round trip to Fennimore, Wisconsin for an Outdoor Youth Expo to provide two (2) free seminars to area youth on falconry with my wife!
I don't charge those folks a dime and I'll spend 50 bucks just on gas round trip I suppose!
Now why would I do that? "OMG Bloodtrail.... you're an idiot"
With as many as 70 Mom's, Dad's and kids attending the seminar(s) - what a great way to spend a family orientated event on a cold January day!
I have been blessed with the ability to hunt with a bow, gun and birds of prey - to me and my wife, it's all about giving back! We are both Hunter Safety Instructors as well.
Yep, I don't know those people, no one is related to me there, but it doesn't matter! Taking pictures with the kids, having them wide eyed wanting to "pet" the hawk pays big dividends in my world! My dear wife is just as committed to the cause - educating our youth to the wonders of the outdoors!
How many "new" falconers am I going to see from all that - probably no one! But that is not the point - just like the youth hunts! Its not about recruitment - its about family time and enjoying the outdoors and this is what some narrow minded, selfish people miss!
Can you honestly say its made a difference for recruitment? If the answer is yes, How much?
By the way you said that my earlier post about having special seasons for more groups was dumb.
Maybe not. Geitz just brought up about having one now for women? What do you think?
CaptMike's Link
No, I cannot "honestly" say if it has made a difference or not. What I can honestly say is that making no effort would definitely have done nothing.
Yup, I stick to my comment. I would not be in favor of a special season for women. As was exhibited in the Blaze Pink issue, there were women's groups who appeared and testified against it as they did not want to be treated any differently. Not saying I agree with them but when a segment of the people that would benefit are against something, it would surely make it much harder to accomplish.
Now, how about you telling us why a youth hunt is a bad thing? Where is your proof, where are the horror stories?
I did not state a special season for just women. If you read my "Personally and IMO" comment, I think allowing mentored women in the youth season could help. Again, it's just my thoughts and I rather have a new hunter have success than myself. Also, I believe the growth of women in the outdoors helps greatly in youth recruitment/retention.
In my mind, in order for mentoring to work, it needs to be a year round thing. I dislike the fact that we seem to think a few days in the woods with a deer rifle will stimulate a kids interest in an outdoor lifestyle. I agree with the idea that many people today will not take the time to mentor kids outside of the "special season" created for this. Anyone who only "mentors" kids for the youth hunt is kidding themselves. Someone willing to mentor that kid year round, will do so without the need for special anything. Lots of people talk the talk, but very few walk the walk. Thats the real problem nowadays. The youth hunt isnt cutting it, and will not cut it. Does it hurt? No. Does it help? Waiting for the proof. It has to be out there somewhere.
I agree that women are the leading segment of new hunter recruits, I just explained why I think it would be lost effort.
The other thing I am tired of hearing is the guys that take a youth hunting & end up taking a deer in stead of the youth taking it.
Gramps shot it with crossbow the next week. We asked why he did it and he stated it was the first time shooting the crossbow and wanted to see what it would do!!!
PS: My emotions say a special youth hunt isn't needed.
And, it is important to keep in mind that there is a youth hunt, where a couple days are set aside specifically for youths and then there is the mentored hunt, where any new hunter can be mentored during a regular season. I think sometimes those two get confused or lumped together.
No, I do not think allowing a gun hunt of any type is appropriate during the rut and would not consider doing "it right." That was my biggest problem with the crossbow issue.
Its important you learn deer behavior Its important you learn to shoot Its important you know where to set up And then we tell them This is your weapon And This is what you can shoot All of this might be important to me or you but for the young person I sense it’s too much , and after a short time many of they don’t want it . They were not given the freedom to make it their own . When I started I was given the chance to fill in my own blanks . I was given the brush( for me it was a bow ) and I was shown the canvas , (the woods) and I painted my own picture . I decided what a hunt was . ( with a little guidance here and there) . That happened by accident . Because In 1977 people didn’t know as much about deer hunting as they know now , at least my mentors didn’t . Now everyone is an expert and we feel like we have to pass on our expertise . All good except for along with our expertise comes all of our ideas good and bad . In many ways we have a small army of youngsters heading out to woods wearing a very tight turtle neck , so tight they can’t take a breath . My most enjoyable times in the field and on the waters has always been when I felt free to make it what I wanted .
It's not about "getting them interested in hunting" that is what most people like yourself are missing your making an assumption here!
No where does it state in any WDNR publication "Hey, we got the gun deer youth hunt going on October 15-16...get a kid interested in hunting...take em' out"
IF and I say again IF it helps to interest a kid...Great!
What the hunt is about is ONE MORE opportunity to have a kid take a firearm with a family member or a mentor and get out hunting!
Two stinking days out a ENTIRE season and people get their undies in a bundle. I cannot believe it!
Instead of this type of talk we should be all getting behind this concept for what it really is!
No one including you RJN can tell me or anyone else the negative impact this provides to youth or the deer herd!
Gun, bow, crossbow or a slingshot for squirrels...what does it matter? The point is they are OUT IN THE WOODS with an adult in a youth structured hunt!
Not everyone is a bow hunter unfortunately!
Some folks like to piss and moan just for the sake of pissin' and moanin'!! There the same ones who would be complain they were hung with a new rope.
LTLJimbow - we cannot generalize when it comes to any group of people....including our youth! What works for one, may not work for the next so "sensing" it may not work....is at best a guess!
You have attempted to ask leading questions which have gone nowhere now a couple different times. This is probably the 6th or 7th time I am asking you one question, but let's give it one more shot. Tell us exactly, what is hurt or suffers from a youth hunt? No answer from you, I am done answering your questions, which I have been very good about.
The law changed when my son came onboard to hunt - daughter was a little upset with junior! LOL
Either way - buck or doe - either way something to hunt is very nice. Whatever is best for the herd.....
Seems to me if that's your opinion you would have brought that up since we are discussing the pros and cons of the youth hunt? That's a pretty big point to purposely avoid in this discussion don't you think?
What I said is that I don't agree with allowing the killing of does in areas where it is not permitted, even though I do not think that the limited number of does killed hurts the population. I also said I did not believe that most parents use the youth hunt as a way for them to kill an extra deer/doe.
Nope, don't consider it a game changer because, once again, I don't think the limited number of does killed by youth hunters will decimate the herd and there are measures being considered that would stop this from happening, and that I do agree with.
So explain, are you against all youth hunts, are you against youth's hunting, are you against the two day youth hunt, are you against mentored hunting, are you against lowering the age of a youth in order for them to hunt or are you against the two weapon law? Do you know what you are against? You haven't said so yet but surely you must have some idea?
My conversation with Retro began over the proposal to reduce the hunting age to a parent's decision. He has taken it on quite a few different angles from there.
Yes, I am also part of that bickering but the bottom line for me is I am willing to try anything that might help boost the ranks of hunters.
Mike said "I have voiced my disapproval of does being killed by anyone in areas where the science has called for no killing of does."
Well, after these statements I was wondering how you could fully support the youth hunt given the current rules allowing them to shoot does in areas not allowed by the general hunting public? I was ASKING you where you proclaimed that you support the youth hunt, but think we need to change the rules??? Thought it was a no brainer that this would be your position, and I was wondering WHY YOU HADNT made that statement. Comprehension Mike! Comprehension!
Well the mystery is solved. You just proclaimed your against the killing of does where its prohibited, but then immediately said you dont care that they do it because its not a "game changer" LOL!
Mike, I did make a mistake. That was thinking you actually take a position on something instead of jumping back and forth across the lines like a politician. I wont make that mistake again.
"Nope, don't consider it a game changer because, once again, I don't think the limited number of does killed by youth hunters will decimate the herd and there are measures being considered that would stop this from happening, and that I do agree with." Seriously Mike, You should be a politician. LOL!
The only thing I know for sure is that none of them are anti-hunters! Maybe that's a win???
Apparently you were absent or sleeping the day your local Preacher said "if cannot say something nice about someone, don't say nothing at all?"
The bottom line here Greenlef5 is not what I am doing as much as it is what are WE as adults doing to promote the Outdoors? Even more so, than just what any one person in particular is doing!
It's the fact that someone, (anyone) (even you) needs to be doing something about an issue (youth) that should be so very important to each and everyone of us.
It's easy for some to stand on the side lines and complain or "guess" what is happening with low recruitment numbers. Or why our youth does this or that! Why Johnny or Mary doesn't pick up a bow and arrow or a shotgun. "We don't need to coddle" "We don't need to baby this or "special" that"...The list goes on!
My message, or what I saying here Greenleaf5 is this!Instead of being part of the problem - we all best get busy being part of the solution.
Whether it's hunting, fishing, camping, photography anything that introduces our youth to the Wisconsin Outdoor experience is a win for all of us "outdoors people!"
So while your not busy complaining about my "verbose" posts, take 5, catch your breathe and why not get busy yourself?
Thank you Tracker66 - it's a win!
You may have been wondering it but you never asked it. If you had, my response would have been as I said above, "I don't think the limited number of does killed by youth hunters will decimate the herd and there are measures being considered that would stop this from happening, and that I do agree with."
But, Retro, because you converse best with yourself, you never asked that question.
You also said, "Thought it was a no brainer that this would be your position, and I was wondering WHY YOU HADNT made that statement." Retro, if you have not learned yet, when you make assumptions you make an.... well, you know what of yourself. I guess I am a little surprised you do it on a public forum but that is your choice.
Lastly, as has been typical of my conversation with you, you once again ignore any question posed to you. Is your "position" really that thinly veiled and weak that you are not able to answer? You may feel I'd make a good politician but I feel you would not. You dive head first into a subject of which you know little about, then deflect whenever challenged about it.
Bottom line is you are free to want the woods for yourself. It is not an endearing quality but nevertheless, it is your prerogative.
Greenleaf, if each of us did what Bloodtrail does, I think hunters in general would be looked upon in a much brighter light.
Why would you care? Really?
There's room in the truck - we leave at 7AM sharp! Care to come along and help? You can set up chairs! Or maybe you'd like to make a contribution to the cause?
Ya, I thought so!
It's not about being an "asset" Steve - it's about commitment to the community and the sport - but someone like you may never get that!
It provides for two separate opportunities to enjoy the Outdoors!
You claim you support the idea of not killing does where needed, then jump ship and claim that it doesnt matter to you that the youth do it anyway.
You then make the claim that they are currently trying to change the law to stop the harvesting of does during the youth hunt in buck only counties. And in typical Capt. Mike fashion you say you also support this. LOL!
Mike says, "You dive head first into a subject of which you know little about"
Of course you have decided that doe harvest in buck only counties is acceptable based on what? All the time you spend hunting in the north? Experience? Your first hand knowledge of the situation? LOL!
Balls in your court Mike. I would imagine your going to hit it back to yourself again. :>)
For the record one last time. Here goes. The youth hunt does nothing to benefit hunter numbers in the long run. I do not support it. Twist away.
I disagree with you, but even if it doesn't, it provides for the numbers of youth hunters and their families who enjoy that time outdoors and that can not, will not and is not be a bad thing!
Families and kids that don't spend time together in the Outdoors - now that's a bad thing! Families that don't get the opportunities to connect in the Outdoors...that's a bad thing!
And, if it doesn't recruit one more hunter, but allows for more memories, more bonding and strengthening of existing participant families - it's all good!
It's 2 stinking days - put it in perceptive man!
And we wonder why we have problems in society - closed mind thinking and the deterioration of emphasis on families takes the short track! Wow......
LTL JimBow "the spirit of the bow" is under attack? Perhaps the "spirit of the family" suffers far more?
When it comes to hunting - it involves more than a bow, gun, crossbow. It comes down to how we as hunters and outdoor enthusiasts are perceived in todays society.
As the demographics of hunting shrinks year by year in the United States we need to stand vigilant in our efforts to promote hunting in a positive manner. It matter what the general public sees what we as hunters are doing and HOW we are doing it. Like it or not - it's the truth.
Tracker66 posted a comment that really made sense to me.
He admitted he was 0 for 3 as far as hunter recruitment on his youth hunts. His efforts are certainly noteworthy.
He added however, that although he was 0-3 that he would guess that was three less anti-hunters wondering if that was a win?
That is huge in these times people!
Fewer and fewer people will hunt as time passes and our landscape to enjoy what we love so much, continues to disappear!
Think about that....
Frankly Im smart enough to know that I cannot "force" anyone to do anything HunterR, but I am quite passionate about the cause - apparently there's something wrong with that?
Here's a thought...if ya don't like it, don't read it!
Swampy - Now don't go putting words in my mouth you ole' rascal!
I never said that if you don't "like" the youth hunt your part of societies downfall - without family values! I spoke in general terms! Can it apply to the youth hunt - perhaps it can...in some cases!
There are absolutely no absolutes my friend! But it doesn't take a rocket scientist to look around and see what we as a society have become when it comes to our kids. Hate to sound like a doom and gloom kinda guy - but it isn't looking good in many cases!
On the up side we have many good kids out there - that's the good news!
Now we just have to find adults that will take the time to spend it with them! Hopefully in the Outdoors!
You can do better than that my friend! Don't "cherry pick" my posts!
Oh, and just for the record I had about 8 hours total in my treestand this year because I was busy being selfish with my grandkids. How bout you?
Although I never mentioned you personally and you may be a little paranoid for what ever reason, I appreciate you sharing with us!
This is exactly what I'm talking about here - outstanding and I hope it doesn't end in October like some folks sometimes do!
What about me?
Well, because you asked... I have an adult daughter that hunts - she just took a job with the WI State Patrol in October so she had to pass this year!
My son (16), likes the gun deer season and although he passed on several bucks, he had a great time.
He assists me with my falconry presentations as well - quite a boy! He's a great brush buster and gets those rabbits running! He's killed 5 deer so far with his bow and last count I believe he's took 6 different gobblers. Shot his first one at age 10!
I in the meantime (ready Greenleaf5 - he comes the back patting) have conducted no less then 4 educational presentations at area schools this year and am packing for tomorrows presentation as we speak!
I guess I've indirectly or directly have encountered/worked with a hundred or so kids so far!
We start teaching Hunter's Education in March - the wife and me! My 16 year old son and is a "Junior Instructor." He makes every class and assists with the "field day." Have you looked into instructing Retro - we could use the help!
Hats off to you for the work you do with the grandkids - great Grandfather stuff!
It doesn't take a youth hunt to make a great Grandfather - if ya think that's what I'm saying ya, missed my point by a country mile!
I think it's GREAT!
Its all good though. They make their decisions without knowing anything about me and maybe others but for sure me. Always run to the phrase book for a quick "what's a matter you afraid their are shooting your deer? What you got against kids? Are you PETA? " LOL Butt hurt is used by Capt often with people and I am not familiar with that phrase. Must be something he commonly uses within his group of acquaintances?
Its funny though... we know everything about them and what they do in every thread and yet they know nothing about me and judge. Hence the ego comments to all.
PS- Two day special youth hunt isn't needed but I would gladly give two days to wounded warriors.
Like a gang of little kids, a couple of you get together to push some agenda you know nothing about, then attempt (futilely) to discredit those using common sense, data and a little personal info.
Retro, get your hands on the list of questions for the spring hearings, it may give you a little insight. In the mean time, try giving a little thought to the working fathers and mothers who want to enjoy the outdoors while teaching their kids about the outdoors.
By the way, who ever said anything about a season ending in October? Or, is that just you, talking to yourself again?
Some people DONT care for the youth hunt and it is completely fine that they feel this way, they're entitled to have an opinion and post it on a public forum. Deal with it. ;-)
I'd give two days to the "Wounded Warriors" as well - great idea!
What your missing is that some of these same youth who will enjoy the added opportunity of the youth hunt, the ones you argue against, will someday unfortunately be "wounded warriors" or worse! But I guess that doesn't matter to you!
Makes a fella think!
What I do know about you Pasq is you slam the youth hunt every chance you get and have yet come up with a reasonable excuse why the State should not provide this to our youth!
I really don't need to know anything else about you!
Two stickin' days, it's involved kids and your upset! Really?
Don't hold your breath.
BT Why the post with your picture? Kind of weird dude. The question is asking if the youth hunt is recruiting youth hunters. No where did it say please promote yourself and post a lengthy self promotion piece. You don't look like a youth hunter to me. At least you did not post a picture of that buck you killed this year for the 200th time. That deer has died more times on bowsite than any other deer ever:^)
What it truly means -What I do know about you Pasq is you slam the youth hunt every chance you get and have yet come up with a reasonable excuse I AGREE WITH why the State should not provide this to our youth!"
Blood said - What your missing is that some of these same youth who will enjoy the added opportunity of the youth hunt, the ones you argue against, will someday unfortunately be "wounded warriors" or worse! But I guess that doesn't matter to you!
Let's dissect your statement please.
# 1-"What your missing is"......is that what I'm Missing Blood? Do you know that I am missing that? Are you also now the amazing Kreskin and able to read peoples minds and what they are missing? In freaking credible how good you are!!!
#2 - "but I guess that doesn't matter to you!" Blood I can appreciate all you do and know you were on TV with your hawks and stuff but you can kiss my lily white azz on if I care about people getting wounded defending my right of having an opinion. I have someone at home that fought for it and paid a price. #3 - Two stickin' days, it's involved kids and your upset! Really?..... wrong Blood I wasn't upset at all until now, and it has nothing to do with the youth hunt and only upset your ignorant comment on wounded warriors.
Like I shared many moons ago, how many hunters would we have if they only grew spikes? Not many is my guess but again only a guess.
And Blood, from what I can tell you are in some sort of law enforcement and I TRULY respect that. But don't ever forget you poop the same way I do and no better than me or anyone else on this sight. That "S on your shirt is just that.... a shirt.
Capt I sat in many a meeting with the DNR in the Warnke days. I also sat with Norb at WBH gatherings when he said it seemed as some on the board were full of poppycock and the information about crossbow was poppycock. I voted against crossbow many times in my little town hall meetings only to get what we got.
Spare me the story on it was the best we could get. WBH should have fought saying NO all the way cause we got full inclusion anyway. (NO MATTER HOW YOU WANT TO SAY IT).
HAVE A GREAT EVENING AND MANY SALMON TO YOU CAPT AND MAY YOUR SEMINARS ON FALCONRY BRING YOU MUCH INTEREST BLOOD
As far as killing does in the north, Monday thru Wednesday I fully support it. Thursday thru Sunday, Im against it. If you want to argue with me either way on it, make sure you contact me during the appropriate times listed above. If all the lines are busy, please hold.... as your call is important to me.
The Youth Hunt. Its the savior of the human race. Its probably the single greatest event in human history followed closely by the formation of the earth. Yes, its that important.
As the leader of the dreaded bowsite gang "The October Disciples" I order all gang members to immediately adopt the above philosophy.
Next gang meeting is Wednesday. Potluck at 6:00 p.m.
I feel better now.
Pasq, I was hoping we got past our spat a while ago.
This is one to agree to disagree.
I have noticed supporters give good reasons for their position but opponents give none. Sure its not needed but so much in life is not NEEDED, but its nice to have.
Neverbait - Really? The reason we shouldn't have a youth season is because it gives them a "false experience?"
I don't know about you, but all the youth hunts I have been on have been "real hunts." We carry real guns with real bullets and we hunt real deer in a real woods! We wear blaze orange even!!
My sons first buck, a six pointer came out of a real cornfield, walked past our tree stand, stopped and my son dropped it with a "real" single shot .243 .
Nothing "fake" about it Neverbait! The only difference is "cold" weather and "snow" - some seasons (regular gun) hasn't been very cold and we had NO snow!
I'm not tracking here at all.
Pretty flimsy reason to end the "youth hunt!"
But to make for a kinder and gentler Bowsite -0 I do respect your opinion.
First off, don't ever attempt to twist or even insinuate the fact that because I am a law enforcement officer I think I'm better than anyone else - don't even begin to go there!
If you truly respected law enforcement like you claim, you would have never travelled down that road!
I have never, ever used or even attempted to use my position to look down my nose at anyone one of you and have spent a career trying to make the world just a little better for some.
Shame on you Pasq!
You banter with the word "what your missing" - I know that based solely on the uninformed post(s) and comment(s) that you make now and in the past!
Ironically my friend you then go onto post a statement on what I said and then one that states "What I mean" - well right back at ya friend - how could you possibly "know" what I mean? Are you "Kreskin"? Yada, yada yada.....
Ya slam me and then do the same thing! Hello?
Nice twist on words Pasq - referring to our wounded warriors! That's not what I was saying at all!
I said "What your missing is that some of these same youth who will enjoy the added opportunity of the youth hunt, the ones you argue against, will someday unfortunately be "wounded warriors" or worse! But I guess that doesn't matter to you!"
I used the word "guess" (But I "GUESS" that doesn't matter to you) if it does matter to you, good news! My "best" knowledge on the subject is just that, what I said.... "a "Guess".
I'm saying support our youth - our future soldiers, politicians, business owners and decision makers! They are not only the future, but most importantly to ALL of us, the most important to our Hunting, Fishing and Outdoors Heritage!
I do not and will not ever agree or even come close to ever understanding your opinion, but I respect your right to speak it and have this debate!
Not long ago, I took my sister on a hunt at Sandhill for a LTH. The year earlier, her 16 year old daughter/my niece shot a monster 10 point on the hunt that I mentored her on!
Which by the way was not a "gimme" hunt either!
Anyway - I hunted with my adult sister for 2 days - every hour in the woods - never came out for lunch - ate in the stand.....she never saw a deer. NOT ONE!
And this is during the rut!
You cannot classify it as too easy and the "real" deer gun hunt as "too hard" It is what it is - it's hunting!
How many people do we know or have we heard of that with no deer hunting experience at all, go deer gun hunting and within the first hour shoot a monster buck! WOW!!
There's nothing "easy" about the "youth hunt" at all - few deer are shoot and more "shootin' the bull" happens then shooting a buck!
Sometime ago I believe it was RC (maybe NAZ) who posted the numbers - pretty low as I recall!
Antlerless harvest by junior hunters: 2012 - 266 in six units with no antlerless quota, .15 per square mile 2013 - 95 during the 9 day gun season in 4 units with no antlerless quota, .09 per square mile 2014 - 3,277 during the 9 day gun season in sixteen units with no antlerless quota, .25 per square mile 2015 - 1,560 during the 9 day gun season in nine units with no antlerless quota (not including Douglas and Florence counties because they either had a portion of the unit with an antlerless quota or had high numbers of nuisance tags), .30 per square mile.
There will be a question at the Spring Hearings regarding eliminating exceptions that currently allow harvest of antlerless deer in Buck-Only management units where there is no established antlerless quota. These exceptions will include class A and C permits for hunters with disabilities, certain active duty military personnel and youths age 17 and under.
Such a "deep" thinker you are my friend - there is such a thing as "over thinking" or "over analyzing" a subject!
My good Lord, it's a 2 day kids hunt in some fairly nice weather!
Based solely on the "numbers game" most hunters walk away empty handed. That's correct - most youth hunter's don't shoot a deer!!! And a fair amount don't see a deer!!
You make it sound like everyone goes home with a 10 point buck after 15 minutes of hunting - not true!
Look at the numbers!
"Privileged" and "coddled" - an "even" playing field? So what is this "advantage" you speak of?
Every deer my son or daughter has shot on the "youth hunt" they earned Sir! There was no gimme - no easy hunt! Up early and hours in the blind - same way we hunt during regular gun season! What's different?
There not anybody in the woods pushing deer around - so that's different. If I hear 3 shots all of the youth hunt - it's allot!
It's called "hunting" no one has an "even" playing field - the deck should be and rightfully so stacked on the side of the game.
Please explain to me how I "coddle" my kids and how my children were "privileged!"
When one persons opinion isn't convenient for you, you want specifics and statistics. Then when another's doesn't he is "overthinking". Whatever fits your agenda my friend.
CaptMike, Thankyou, that is my point. It is not about whether or not they get a 10 pointer. My point is that they have a special season that others of other age groups, etc. are not able to take part in. If one doesn't think that is a priveledge, well.... teach your kids what you want.
As a person who has nothing to gain from that special season, I still see it as a positive as I'd like to see every possible effort made to recruit more and new hunters. I want my kids and future grandkids to have the continued ability to hunt and I believe the best way to reach that goal is through new hunter recruitment.
In a world where I unwillingly fund many other people's privileges, I have no issue in giving privilege to a group of people that might be the key to the future of hunting.
Like I said, not that big of a deal to me; but i do notice some trends in society today that this parallels- and i don't think those trends are a good thing. It has me asking, whats next? Sorry for getting off on a tangent.
BTW, you wrote, "I did not read anywhere where Bloodtrail said it was about getting a 10 pointer", the quote i therefore referenced was Bloodtrails.
Truth be told I think some of the father's and mentors are the ones wanting this special hunt more than the youth themselves. Can't get enough bonding and memories, the fathers know that time is precious moreso than the kids. I doubt it has as much to do with hunter recruitment as even they think.
Yep.
- Give the kids a free video game with each hunting license
- Offer free phone upgrades for every 2 consecutive years kids hunt.
Give them freebies and you might garner more attention.