Jodie's Link
APR's don't put unhealthy pressures on quality genetics. It's exactly the same as culling "inferior" bucks. In afree ranging population, you cannot change the genetics of a herd through hunting. You can only change the age structure and buck to doe ratio.
Private Landowners are in tune, but a lot of grumbling by the public land hunters, blame the dnr for not seeing deer in the north,,,, when in reality the dnr is trying to improve the herd.....
If I was in charge, and I have suggested this, I would run a feature article, or maybe a series of articles, like in WON, on Wis Deer Management....
I would have the team, introduced, their education and backgrounds, and their visions etc, starting with, the person in charge,,,,,, someone writing on the progress and future outlook, would go along way, in restoring confidence, in their management scheme....
The DNR, does a lot of good, do a really good job in most cases, but they are terrible on Public Relations
Another option would to give a seminar at the deer classics, and other events, to take advantage to get their ideas out there, meet and greet goes along way.....
but what do I know
Too many public land hunters shoot as many does as they can get tags for. That doesn't mean none of them are good stewards, just that there are far, far too few.
On the other hand, just as many private landowners mistakenly believe very high deer numbers equal a healthy deer herd. They refuse to believe the damage they are doing to the landscape by carrying too many does will hurt thrm in the long run.
Anyone who blames the DNR for their perceived deer woes is sadly mistaken. The CDAC's are charged with managing deer on a landscape level. It is up to us as hunters to make informed harvest decisions on a local level.
Recently I heard someone say they had a great deer season last year. He shot sll three deer he saw for the year. All were does. As long as people are this misinformed, we will face an uphill battle.
Although I usually support the DNR, skook you can not dismiss, the days, of all the doe tags, used to shoot the heck out of the herd in areas of the north, for too many years..... Who do you think authorized the tags?
Hunters will fill doe tags, and when the DNR, says they can have them, well than they believe, its okay,,,,,,
I remember local assigned wildlife managers, getting over ruled, on their quota suggestions, I am sure you know that too.......
I do agree, there are areas of too many does, but it certainly not north of Hwy 8 and east of 70........
I pray for some more milder winters, and increased young forest development,,,,,,,
He did have a point, but I think we have past that ugly point, and with the great authority act, the future looks a lot brighter, for our younger hunters
It is my belief that our current deer problems in the north are due to a perfect storm of conditions. We as hunters put a lot of negative pressure on the herd during the 2000's and early 2010's. Then we had two of the worst winters on record in a row that had a terrible effect on the deer. Complicating both of these factors was that we had a significant increase in predator populations at the same time. The wolves we couldn't do much about (legally), and the bear and bobcat populations need to be handled cautiously because if we over harvest them, it can take many, many years for them to rebound.
The deer populations are well on their way to recovering in nearly all counties in the north. Notable exceptions are places like Vilas and Iron County that obviously need some more years of no doe harvests and attention to the predator issues. Iron County will benefit tremendously from the Good Neighbor Authority and the thousands of acres that will be logged in the next several years.
Interestingly enough, I hear the same people who complain that they aren't seeing any deer complain that they can't get a doe tag because it isn't worth hunting if they can't shoot a doe. Others just plain to don't go out in the woods. They sit in a cabin or on a bar stool and proclaim there aren't any deer out there. Still others are hunting the same spot they have hunted for years or decades and don't realize that the habitat has changed to a point that deer just plain aren't likely to use the area any more. The CNNF is a perfect example. You can't hunt in an area that hasn't been harvested in decades and expect there to be a ton of deer.
Our first responsibility, is to have a healthy deer herd and do what is best for the herd, not for someone who just wants to pull the trigger......
I absolutely agree with skook, on the perfect storm, and I went to plenty of meetings, and I said, if you put out this many tags, your asking for a disaster, and we had it..................
The irony there is that the DNR biologists say that most hunters are over reactive "barstool biologists". Yet on the other hand they are saying those same people should know the health/status of their deer herd and hunt accordingly. They can't have it both ways. If they want us to have faith in them. They have to accept responsibility for the bad as well as the good. Just as the hunters should.
I totally agree that hunters should know the status of the herd they are hunting, and how many does it can stand to lose. But the majority of the 2 or 3 day a year gun hunters have no clue. So they are going to rely on the DNR to be honest with them.
The WDNR has done something recently that has placed deer management numbers smack dab with the responsibilities of the hunter. CDAC is definitely the best thing since canned beer and has been working effectively through out the State of Wisconsin.
So the Counties are now placing the limits on tags available with the support of the DNR! How great is that?
Since the introduction of CDAC the WDNR has faithfully backed each CDAC number proposal.
Now that's backing the WI hunter and doing what best for the herd.
That said, when we use the term "DNR" we need to keep perspective on just who that is. While administrations and DNR Secretaries change, it is the mid-management who is often responsible for programs. They are the ones who need to be held more accountable, or at the minimum, specify which administration is responsible for the various programs that are in place.
It would never work with min spread. We all have heard of ground shrinkage. Too many different genetics.
Min APR's will work, but hunter satisfaction will dwindle.
Also, no mention in this thread, or article in regards to CWD being more prevalent in older bucks.
Lastly to properly manage a deer herd you should harvest 10% of every age class across the landscape to do it correctly.
Like that would ever happen....
I see this becoming an issue when and if the harvest if bucks drop dramatically and the number of licenses sold falls through the floor.
Right now it's a race to harvest a big buck before gun season with a crossbow.
With an abundant amount of deer we shouldn't "require" anyone to pass up any deer they wish to harvest.
Just my 2 cents worth...
So why do you pass on deer that aren't mature? To place more mature bucks on the landscape. To make it easier to kill a mature buck in future years. Something you just ragged on others for.
Not really. Justify it any way you want, you let small bucks walk because you want to shoot bigger ones. To shoot bigger ones they have be there. So you are passing the young ones hoping they will someday give you a shot as they are older. For the record I am not for AR's. For the simple fact that they do little to nothing for age structure.
Whatever you say RC, oops I mean Jodie.
Go ahead, don't be afraid! Of course we all have an "idea" of what a mature deer is in our own mind.
Is a 6 1/2 year old buck with a 108 inch rack is Northern Wisconsin or a 2 1/2 year old sporting a 130" rack buck in Buffalo County mature?
Does it take a doe 18 months to be "mature" enough to breed?
A lot of "tree stand wildlife biologists" here
Funny how we are all getting our undies in a bundle over a post on what deer we should or should not be shooting when it is a personal preference.
What does passing up "immature bucks" do to the herd structure in your area? If you pass that small basket rack 8 pt, will your neighbor shoot it and upset the apple cart, screwing with the management of "your herd"?
Why is it about the size of the antlers. What will it take to put the fun back into the hunt???
Do we really want to cross that line???
And what will it cost? No in monetary value, but what about the personal value if the hunt???
Jodie- Your profile says you are form Michigan, where do you hunt?
I know I am looking forward to this hunting season but I do have a more serious question. If I shoot a buck, but I only have a doe tag left, can I claim that the buck wasn't really a buck?
I mean maybe he'd always wanted to be a doe, but with no choice of his own he was born with the physical attributes of a male. And yet on the inside he'd always known he was truly a female.
I'm just wondering if the game warden will buy it, because society and the Supreme Court do.
I like what MI does. You can buy a buck tag which can be used with any legal weapon during the weapon appropriate season on any legal buck. Or, you can buy a combo tag which allows you to kill 2 bucks (same weapon/season of choice rules as the regular buck tag) where one must have at least 3 points on one side and the other must have at least 4 points on one side. You as a hunter can decide if you want any buck and take the single any-buck tag or will hold out for the 3 or 4 on a side scenario and get 2 bucks.
I think inside spread APRs are a recipe for disaster as they are far more difficult to judge, especially at distance.
Thanks for your reply.
Now let's look into the biology of a whitetail deer. A does will breed if she weighs 90 lbs by her first fall. Biologically she could be mature at the ripe age of 7 months. It's determined by her weight not age. This happens to approx. 15% of the does. The rest of the does are bred at the ripe old age of 1 1/2 years.
Bucks start breeding at age 1 1/2. So that means they are mature at 18 months.
You mentioned the word "trophy" in your reply. Thank you for explaining your thoughts on that. I think any animal that we are fortunate enough to harvest is a trophy.
Then you brought up fishing- Totally different analogy as we can't see what is biting on the end of our line. I suppose we could have hunt and release??? We have the option of letting animal pass when we are hunting. We don't have the ability of letting the 14 inch walleye eat the night crawler and just set the hook on the legal ones....
P&Y entries have gone up dramatically over the last 50 years, yet the bar stoolers cannot get a mature buck, I wonder why?
Mike, I understand your opinion but isn't passing a young deer the same as catch and release? I could have shot him but I didn't. The dnr tells me I HAVE to release the little fish and I'm fine with them telling me I have to "release" the baby deer. As far as sexual maturity and physical maturity, they are two different things. Skook summed that up perfectly.
Nice Deer! As far as catch and release and passing up a deer, that's a tough call. Legally you have to release a short fish, and you don't "have" to pass up a spike or a fork buck.
Yes, breeding age and "old age" are two different things. But again, who is anyone to say with the number of deer on the landscape that I can or can not shoot a trophy spiker? I could see it if we had a shortage of deer, but not with the populations we currently have.
I personally will not shoot a spike or a fork buck, but I will NOT tell anyone else that they can't of they want to.
All animals harvested are trophies in my book.
And before some smartass says why don’t you just shoot a doe instead, I would say the same to you.
Nice Deer!
Mike F's Link
Here you go. I hope this helps.
Maybe the reason is partly that new discussions generate more page hits which in turn means more income from the site sponsors.
A topic search function by state would be nice too. There are ways to find old stuff but it is hard to do.
It's not only genetics, it's a lot more than that.
Any one can pass on a young deer in hopes that it will make it to age 4 or 5. But there are too many variables that we have no control over. For instance, fence or property lines.....
Reggie-
Not offended. It's just a lot easier to point everyone in the direction of the information that they are asking about instead of trying to explain it.
The only stupid questions are the ones that go unasked!
Is the same also true of breeding bulls, roosters and stallions? Humans?
That would be great but pretty pointless unless group bagging was done away with as well.
I really think the problem is lazy hunters sitting in their cozy towers and therefore they do not see the diversity of bucks. Pope and Young entries are more numerous today than 30 years ago. Big bucks are out there, just have to hunt where they are. Big bucks do not run around in search of lazy hunters sitting by their stove and cell phone eating Twix bars and looking out the window of their tower perched high over the ATV and still steaming morning fecal pile..
All of us that talk about shooting cull bucks are fooling ourselves. That "inferior" buck may be inferior due to genetic factors, but it is just as likely due to environmental factors. Even if it is genetics, those genetics have been spread by the parents, siblings of the "inferior" buck, and the buck itself.
The only way to effectively impact a phenotype is through a true breeding program where traits are selectively promoted by only allowing breeding by specific animals.
The idea those rare mature spike, 4, or 6 pointers are somehow going to take over the area genetically by somehow breeding every doe in the county because they don't get shot is just not sound.
What would be the best scenario would be to pass up young bucks rather than an APR since the goal is to improve the age structure and diversity but obviously there is no way to accomplish that. An APR is about the only substitute because it is not subjective. By going to a 3 or 4 point rule you are effectively accomplishing letting year and a half old deer live to be a little older.
How do you know what makes a hunt more rewarding or more of a challenge for each individual. We do not all hunt for the same reasons or all have the same amount of time to dedicate to hunting a certain size deer. If people are happy shooting what they want and its not affecting the health of the heard, I do not see a problem that needs fixing with only one buck tag or APR's.
If I did not hunt and trap I would not vote to continue sport hunting and trapping either, it is not necessary in today's society. With their macho horn porn image, hunters are shooting their own foots with voters... Unfortunately, it is already too late.
I don't believe that anyone can honestly say they wouldn't be more excited to shoot a mature buck than a yearling. They are bigger bodied, are much more of an accomplishment because they get smarter with experience, and generally have more impressive horns. It's not all about horn porn as many keep posting. Yes, putting a deer on the wall is important to many hunters, including me. But it is more than just the size of the horns for many. The buck that I am most proud of wasn't huge, and I didn't even shoot it. It was a 125" ten pointer that I put a friend on last year. It was a deer I found on public land in an area of Rusk County that supposedly had "no deer". I found where he was living, figured out where I thought he could be killed and my buddy shot him on Sunday morning of rifle season. It was the first buck he ever shot after many years of hunting in the northwoods with nobody to teach him any woodsmanship. He learned more in a few days of me showing him what I had figured out and how and then selecting a stand location and hunting that buck than he had in decades. He went from being a guy that just went out and sat in the woods to being a hunter who now has more drive to learn and grow. He ended up with a pile of meat, and a set of horns to remind him of an awesome day in the woods that I was proud to share with him.
Leave the woods to me and others who do not prefer an artificially "APR grown trophy".
Agree with Drop Tine.
EAB was the single best tool to control the herd. It promoted everything that has been listed in this forum that is good for the herd. BUT because of some (the majority) people who need to shoot the first buck that comes by it is gone.
Truly hunters ruined what was the best way to not only grow big deer but control the herd and its age structure in WI. Yes EAB was over used but only because the many hunters were greedy by taking to many deer cause the tags were either cheap or free. Sound ridiculous I know....but the truth hurts.
I enjoy watching them in their elements without aid of cameras too. I might shoot a 1.5 year old fork horn one day and a 30 point might walk by my stand the next day and .I don't care. I enjoy the outdoors and all our creator has given us but I like back straps too!
Instead of putting your neighbor or fellow hunter down, we should be working together to improve the overall herd health across Wisconsin.
Last week I spent some time in Sawyer County and was pleasantly surprised at the amount of logging taking place and the number of deer that I saw.
Instead of belittling your neighbor for shooting a deer that he is proud of you should be shaking his hand and congratulating him.
The only thing I would like to see change is the group bagging rule during gun and muzzle loader seasons. They are your tags and you should have to fill them yourself.
Couldn't have been said better!!!!
Unfortunately group bagging for does usually means driving public land to shoot every doe that can be found.
4 of us hunt 2 1/2 days during the gun season and put 15-18 deer on the pole during those days. This year the target number is 20.
Do away with ALL group bagging. It will be a more respectable and ethical hunt.
We already have antler restrictions in place.
They need to be 3" to be a legal buck.....
