Bowsite.com

Hmmmm....Very interesting....

Another FEEL-GOOD project. Mad Dog

yup. When that doesn't work, de Blasio will try to tax the deer as a way of discouraging them

Hope this is a better pic. Mad Dog

Mo Money, Mo Money, Mo Money!!

Where does this stop? Bleeding heart liberals nearly ruined this country with their social programs that make it easier for people NOT to work than it does to work and now they're spending millions of dollars of taxpayer's money on a destined to fail program.

Makes entirely too much sense,RUBBISH I SAY!!!...

SWK - maybe they're all out counting ticks? I feel your pain brother. I tried to tell them 20 years ago the herd in the NW was declining, and I was told to find someone who knows how to find deer. Why even bother trying to participate with the DEP or DEEP with smart ass remarks like that.

Did you see they now say that SI has over 2,250 deer just in one area on the island!!!! Didn't they just take a survey in 2014 and spotted 763 on the whole island!!!! And I'm sure we're going to hear about the "doubling" factor which means in 2008 approx. 11 deer turned into over 2,000 today. RIGHT!

Take the taxpayers money and throw it away.

They could very easily open the landfill to bow hunters only, hunt over bait. Donate the venison to the poor. The Weschester County program would be a great model. Qualifying ONLY competent, ethical hunters. Tightly regulated. Nahhh...makes too much sense. Mad Dog

There are tons of bow hunters on S.I. mad Dog

Are we really doing this again? You know this is a political move. You think the major of NYC is going to 1) allow hunting in NYC city limits and 2) promote the willful killing of deer resulting in arrowed deer running down city streets and guys dragging gutted deer across major intersections to their cars parked at the meter? Come on guys how many votes is that going to lose him? Tell me you are not that naïve to the game of deer management. What it does prove is that yet again, aerial censusing of deer underestimated the population and required a correction factor. Remember back in July when the population was estimated to be 527 deer in total (see attached link)? Well the WB crew now has 450 bucks sterilized and I bet there a lot more does and fawns out there too. So in this case, instead of doubling the raw count for correction, they should have quadrupled it! What's funny is if you quadruple VisionAir's results from Redding, they match up almost perfectly with our estimate.

SWK I can tell you are anti-biologist. And you are ranting. First of all, I can see why the DEEP wouldn’t want your turtle for the eastern box turtle study. While very cool, the turtle in the photo here is a wood turtle (Glyptemys insculpta), not an eastern box turtle at all. And emerald ash borer is now statewide and there are a lot of lookalike buprestid beetles. This isn’t to say that what you had was not one. But with the whole state in quarantine for EAB now, firewood can go between any county within the State. As far as the grouse study, I am not sure what to say aside from the Wildlife Division is short staffed and over worked as the state is broke if you didn’t know already. They probably took your sighting and marked it somewhere. Bears are so common now that I am sure they are overwhelmed with sightings. People want leaner government but complain when they don’t get a phone call back?

I'm glad the doc cleared that up as I found a box turtle here in MA and it looked slightly different. I would have reported it if the state didn't have such a pain in the ass website. I thought the doc would chime in after the survey miss count. I also agree the state is broke as most liberal states are. All your DEEP money is going to the poor lazy people who don't care to work.

Dr. Williams, not sure if you are familiar with this beetle but I was sitting on the couch one day and saw something big flying in the kitchen. I went to it and it was a big beetle and I shocked it with my electric fly swatter and took it outside. It seemed ok and started walking away. I never saw a beetle like that before so I started looking it up to find it was an. American Carrion Beetle and that it was endangered and not seen around my area in years. I called about getting a game permit and mentioned the beetle. The guy was blown away and asked where I lived. That night when it walked away I spent an hour trying to find it to take a picture because I figured no one would believe me. I never found it and oddly I had guilt for zapping the bugger.

So...Doc....What about the deer "running down the streets" trying to cross the Staten Island expressway that are getting hit and endangering human lives? Just like you to admit A controlled, regulated bow hunt with unlimited season until the numbers are way down, WOULD BE A COST EFFECTIVE SOLUTION sans the political roadblocks. Hundreds of bow hunters would line up for the opportunity. Of course, political correctness stands in the way. Put that aside. Mad Dog

So SWK you are just mad. Maybe you are not happy at your own job?

Mad dog, there is a time and a place for using hunting as a deer management tool. Even if archery could successfully reduce deer densities to socially acceptable levels, I think most guys on this site would agree with me that inside NY City limits is not the time or the place. The attached link is an example. A tagged sterilized buck got hit by a car and died and it made the paper. What happens when a deer with an arrow sticking out of it is photographed wandering the neighborhoods? Or if one expires in someone's pool? This is guaranteed to happen when there is archery hunting in areas with 8000 people/square mile.

Doc - I'll bet you're one of the people who can't understand why Trump was elected. People are sick and tired of politicians making decisions with our money that make no sense, like the SI deer program. You ask how the public would feel seeing a deer with an arrow sticking out of it running across the highway, and I say tell them there's no other cost effective solution to the problem. If they have one, let THEM come up with the money to move bambi to deer nirvana.

And SWK was making a point that you totally missed. The DEP and DEEP are part of the problem, not the solution. Hunters have tried to work them for years, embracing the TIPS hotline, wildlife concerns and reporting bears, moose, box turtles, bugs, etc and all too often no one shows any interest in the information they requested. And you take the time to point out he's doesn't know what a box turtle is, instead of saying thanks for trying,.....that's the point!

So now you defend the inaccurate previous counts on SI by saying all counts are wrong. OK, I guess that makes sense in your world, but it sure leaves us doubting that the "science" used to manage our resources, you know the ones hunter pay for, is correct. Scary!

You seem to say that nowhere else faces the same problems of having deer hunted in city limits where non-hunters and the general public could witness a dead deer with an arrow sticking out, but FF county has lots of backyard hunting happening now, and it has for years. Some people complain, while others who recognize the problem accept it as game management and way to save their expensive landscapes and their BMWs.

Still waiting to see a post from you about your live hunts or how your season is going. Just more of the same posturing for the cause. At least we can say your consistent and predictable.

Bob, again, this decision was made with NYC taxpayer dollars, not yours or mine. And here in CT, DEP and DEEP are the same entity, not sure what you mean there. And a guy complains that DEEP was not interested in his eastern box turtle info and provides an image of a wood turtle. Ummmm, not sure what to do with that. You want me to call my colleagues at DEEP and have them give SWK a call and give him an “Atta boy!” Is that what you are looking for from state employees? Oh and I am merely pointing out that there is irrefutable proof in this case that there are WAY more deer on the ground than was surveyed from the air, kind of like DEEP and I have been saying all along with VisionAir’s bogus methodology. And comparing archery hunting inside New York City limits to Fairfield County is not even a close comparison. Come one man. It’s not even apples to oranges, it’s more like comparing apples to a bulldozer.

Attached image is what is hanging in my barn right now. I hunt deer because I enjoy it. It does not define me nor do I feel the need to post on websites how great a hunter I am because a deer walked in front of me and I shot it. So I have 2 deer hanging since Wednesday BBB. How many years would that have taken you? By my calculations, something like 32 years?

Doc - remember now, federal grant money comes from me and others, so IF any federal funds were used in the NYC project then yes, it is my money, just like your tick study. Seems like you keep forgetting that.

The DEP is now the DEEP - just a history lesson for the younger guys on the site. And neither of them even asked SWK for the pictures or followed up on the info,.... so much for the DEEP being engaged in wildlife management. The point you continue to miss is they don't care.

Having the non-hunting public view a deer wounded or killed by an archer is the same no matter where you are, that was my point. Take a FF county house wife or a PETA member and move them to either spot and the outcome is the same. Don't get so wrapped in the landscape, we're talking about the impact on people here.

Glad to see you hunt, since this is a bow site dedicated to BOW HUNTING. Killing deer doesn't impress me, just too old and have taken more than my fair share when I was younger. As for me killing what you have hanging, I can do that every year if I hunted like you. Taking a doe (2 this year right below stand) or young buck (one nice, young 8 at 20 yards for 15 minutes) is not my goal. I chose to manage the resource by just shooting mature, big bucks.

So share the story on your kills, that's something we would be interested in hearing about. Provide some tips to the younger guys on the site on how to find and get close to a deer. Offer to provide some venison to the guys than need it. Offer to take someone out and show him what to look for. Then maybe you'll gain some respect on this site.

Awww come on swk,we're the uneducated white males...lol

Apparently some believe that money from Hunters is guaranteed, and they therefore take that for granted.

Money from politicians and bureaucrats however requires ass kissing, which explains why some are so damn good at it.

Of course, hunters are tax payers as well; oh yeah, and they vote. Anyone care to venture a guess on who voted which way?

SWK. Unity is a great school and is where it is at for wildlife these days but $$$$. I am sorry you had a bad experience(s) with the Wildlife Division folks, I find them to be great people who have to deal with a lot and are saddled with a lot of paperwork and regulatory nonsense of a superagency. I don’t work for DEEP Wildlife Division, but will defend them pretty much every time someone bad mouths them. Happy Thanksgiving to you and yours too.

BBB. As I've said many times before, this project was funded by NYC taxpayer money, not federal. So unless you live and are taxed in NYC, you really have no say how their elected officials spend their money. For you to say that DEEP doesn't care about wildlife management is pretty obtuse. You guys can rail against state employees all you want, but know that most folks at the Wildlife Division could have pursued much more lucrative employment but instead chose public service and dedication to the resource. And Bob, you needn't fret. I've mentored many young men and women in schooling, employment, and the outdoors and will continue to do so. I just don't feel the need to post how awesome I am in doing so. Oh and where I am deer hunting, it is for management purposes. The landowner wants fewer deer on the property. So if it’s brown, it’s down. Which is fine by me because with work, kids, and our collective volunteer work, I am lucky if I can squeeze in a couple hours here and there during the week. Which is partly why I don’t bow hunt anymore, but the .243 does the trick.

Trump is all for hunting, but do you think he gives a crap about wildlife management and habitat preservation? We as sportsmen are in for a scary 4 years as we watch decades-old environmental regulations lifted to encourage industry, oil exploration on public lands, coal mining(!), and general re-embracement of fossil fuels and watch our air and water dirtied as the EPA is gutted. You'd be a fool to think otherwise. He has said it outright.

Yup, thought so ... Sort of comes down to: Are you an Individualist or are you a collectivist?

Only the Government has the answers!

Doc, you know what is worse then coal? Those damn dreaded solar farms. Popping up everywhere around here and what was once nice woods and fields are now gaudy looking solar panels. How is it Green when wildlife suffers for it when their woods get cut down? What are the tree huggers saying now? Nothing because it's "cleaner".

Doc.. Don Trump Jr. Is a HARDCORE outdoorsmen, shooter, and bowhunter. Did you listen to Pat's extensive interviews with him? Mad Dog

Doc.. Don Trump Jr. Is a HARDCORE outdoorsmen, shooter, and bowhunter. Did you listen to Pat's extensive interviews with him? Mad Dog

"We as sportsmen are in for a scary 4 years as we watch decades-old environmental regulations lifted to encourage industry, oil exploration on public lands, coal mining(!), and general re-embracement of fossil fuels and watch our air and water dirtied as the EPA is gutted."

I hope Donald gives the EPA gutting task to Herman Cain, who mentioned that proposal during his presidential run.

We would not be "sportsmen" if Hillary took away all our weapons, as she promised to do so. Some political issues have a preeminence.

"Lies matter"

Mad Dog, right. Trump's kids pay 10s of thousands of dollars to shoot elephants, leopards, and lions. And to quote myself from my last post, "Trump is all for hunting, but do you think he gives a crap about wildlife management and habitat preservation?"

Well fortunately, based on Trump's recent behavior flip flopping on his tough campaign talk like not hiring a special prosecutor to investigate Hilary, not withdrawing from the Paris accord, not stripping 20 millions Americans of healthcare, and suggesting he has an "open mind" now about climate change, maybe fellow Republican Nixon's EPA, Clean Water Act, and Clean Air Act just may stay somewhat intact.

Spike. You are right about those solar panels. We are losing viable farmland in state to solar fields. I'd like to think that we have moved past clearcutting forest to accommodate them. Look in MA. They have them in median strips, cloverleafs, and other "wasted land" that is only really used by DOT to mow. Have you seen Elon Musk's solar panel shingles for houses? They are very cool.

Now I'm all for home and commercial building solar panels but god do they look awful here. I will get a pic on here of a house down the street that has them on both sides and in back. I hope they sold their land to lease for them cuz I'd be pissed if they were almost surrounding my house!

I love seeing municipal buildings, stores, schools etc starting to use solar panels like "car ports". You car is not snow covered in the winter, it's cooler in the summer (shade) and electricity is being made consistently. Good stuff. It is sad to see farms turned into solar fields... Options like those Tesla roofing shingles have to be round the corner.

I really, REALLY, hope environmental policy does not revert back to pre environmental regs time frames... While I am all for the second amendment, I'm equally interested in my kids having places to hunt and fish - which could be lost for ever if federal lands are privatized or if old school environmental policies (IE - no worries, dump everything in the river or woods out back) were to return. The environment is literally priceless. Economy tanks, it hurts, bad, but can be fixed. Industry changes - same deal. But the environment is destroyed or taken away... gone for lifetimes or more.

If we dont have an environment which is open and healthy to use... We are not sportsman. We may be armed, but we are not sportsman any more. Just target shooters.

Wish there could be a "happy medium" where someone was open to second amendment protection, but also, equally invested in the environment...

Will,

I will grant you there have been improvements in environmental awareness that has curbed industry and stopped abuse. That is, I have seen it in my lifetime. However, the power exercised has become an end goal of the movement itself, and therein lies an abuse of the trust of the taxpayer/citizen. Global warming, climate change, save the planet mentality, is a cover for people control and the ills that accompany that form of government, namely, socialism. Are you aware that the "green movement" was promoted by the National Socialist German Workers' Party?

"Just as today’s greens idealise pre-capitalist society, so did the Volkists and the Nazis. Their ‘blood and soil’ racism was wholly the product of a backward fantasy. It was nothing more than the desire to cling onto the world as it was before. It was an expression of their fear and loathing of the physical and social mobility which came with capitalism. " - http://www.martindurkin.com/blogs/nazi-greens-inconvenient-history

Dr.Williams,

"You guys can rail against state employees all you want, but know that most folks at the Wildlife Division could have pursued much more lucrative employment but instead chose public service and dedication to the resource."

More lucrative employment, really? And they chose lesser financial reward because public service is recognized as virtuous? At the end of a work week, the paycheck puts you in a place with a roof overhead and food on the table. Many people work at something they have an aptitude or skill for, but usually, when financial improvement presents itself, a movement up the pay scale is a no-brainer choice. I do believe that most of the wildlife division people have a passion for their work, and do the best they can, but not at the expense of falling behind in a changing economic society. I think you have stretched credibility on this point, probably because you are a teacher of what you do, putting your work in a good light comes easy, and is meant to encourage newcomers/students, which many of us here on the forum, are not.

"I don’t bow hunt anymore" - So can you, in specific language, tell us why you are on bowsite, please?

wild bill - Doc has an agenda, always has and always will, that's why he's on this site. He posted when WB was in Redding and then again when WB was in the Staten Island area. No hunting threads, no tips or advice, just criticism of the current hunting community.

Good points WildBill. I would suggest the same community trust challenge really ties to multiple points thought. Just as common as it would be between environmental activism and government, would be distrust related to economic issues, social issues, gun policy, government function etc. "We" as a populous tend to develop distrust of organizations which hold control over us and our activities beyond our direct control. Probably good since it fosters a desire to learn about issues and grow... And hopefully fosters, over long term time scales, positive changes in how society develops.

At least on the environmental front, the history of american (and international) business growth is that the environment should be exploited and used. Some of that may be required - so be it. But to go back to rivers the same color as the paper being printed that day or filled with factory effluent is not something I'm ok with. More superfund sites is not something I'm ok with. More manufacturing residue pumped into the environment is frustrating. Hey, there may be ways to make it work. I'm SURE there are compromises that not only could work but would propel entirely new industries and create jobs if all sides could decide such an approach made sense. Tough to line pockets for Dem's and Repub's (or anyone) with that approach though so it seems to keep falling.

I'm not touching the Nazi etc connections to the "green" movement. Within any "movement" lay extreme's which tend to be 1.) further away from reality and 2.) hurt the cause of the movement. At least from what I know and have learned, the consensus of the scientific community is fairly robust when it comes to suggesting that environmental policy has done excellent things for the environment. There is objective and subjective proof of that. I dont believe that the crazy end of the environmental activism movement is more in control of policy, than I believe President Elect Trump's a racist due to his being endorsed by the KKK or having antisemitic groups praising his election. These extreme groups often have awesome targets on their backs and talk really loudly or receive coverage from biased information spreaders...

I'm not trying to be a JackA**. I'd love to have coffee and talk hunting with you - or just shoot the breeze. I just have a personal bias towards the biological sciences :)

Will Bill: You are right. At the end of the day, a paycheck puts a roof over your head and food on the table. And I will stand by my previous statement “…most folks at the Wildlife Division could have pursued much more lucrative employment but instead chose public service and dedication to the resource.” Just remember that when you guys bad mouth them for not meeting your single individual needs right exactly when you want them to and claiming as BBB did “…so much for the DEEP being engaged in wildlife management. The point you continue to miss is they don't care.” And WB, yes I do not bow hunt anymore and I post on this site. I see a lot of topics you bowhunters post about that have virtually nothing to do with bow hunting. Like Wapiti's recent post of a nice buck he took with a GUN. So as a non-bowhunter, should I demand that all you bowhunters only post topics pertaining to bow hunting on Bowsite? I am on here to offer a different perspective and to spur some thinking about hunters acting collectively and not as individuals. Oh, but I did shoot a buddy’s crossbow the other day, so I guess that qualifies me to post here.

BBB: My only “agenda” is proper deer management. If hunters want to be a part of that, great, I think they should be.

Will: You’re speaking my environmental language dude. Hunters always think that land that is posted or locked up is “wasted” land because you can’t hunt it. Well guess where most animals we hunt are produced? On that very same private land. If you haven’t already (though I’ll bet you have), I’d suggest reading Leopold, the father of modern wildlife management. I would suggest other guys on this site do the same. Given that, if we pollute those waters and lands and roll back environmental regulations, guess what? Compromised habitat will result and there will be fewer fish and game to catch and hunt. But if you are a Trump offspring, you can always pay to go shoot a rhino in Africa….

"1.) further away from reality and 2.) hurt the cause of the movement."

That's exactly the way I see the environmentalist movement TODAY.

A flat earth was once a consensus.

What?

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