Contributors to this thread:
There's a healthy debate on another thread so I thought I'd start a new thread with a more appropriate title.
What are your thoughts regarding xbows?
I don't really have a problem with them except that I feel the season should be more limited based on lesser weapon logic. My personal opinion is to give them a month starting a week or two before traditional 9 day gun season.
They can have December. :0
Crossbows have led to the rapid decline of bowhunting and bowhunting organizations. Crossbows are now more in use than hand drawn bows in most states where legal. Due to advancing technology, which started with increasing the let off of compound bows, many hunting seasons are becoming more restrictive, on a drawing as one example. So, I have no issue with crossbows, but they are the demise of bowhunting as we knew it and due to proficiency will lead to further loss of hunter opportunity and days afield. We need fewer hunters in the woods, not more.
Crossbows have no business in the archery season. The whole thing is nothing but a money grab.
It is not simply a money grab. Bowhunters are leaving bowhunting to take up crossbow hunting. Therefore, hunters are the cause of the trending , not the crossbow itself.
Why do we need to hash and rehash this topic over and over again!!! Crossbows are here, like it or not!! Now build a bridge and get over it already.....
Hi Nick . long time no see Still working at Gander ? I,ll stay with my prediction. In a few years we will be a 1 deer per person per year state like the other big Crossgun States m
Crossguns have no place in the archery season. BIG mistake. Won't be changed. Big, dumb, greedy mistake. Money motivated...nothing else.
I think most, even maybe many xbowers, would agree it shouldnt be included in archery season. What ideas can we take to our reps. Xguns are here to stay but can it be dialed back?
Gun season only for xbows, or any shoulder fired weapon. They don't belong anywhere else. I know a lot of people think that with today's modern compounds there is not a huge difference but what stands out to me and why I'm against it is you have to DRAW a bow while the deer is in range. All you have to do is line up the scope and pull the trigger on an xbow. To me, that is a glaring difference and one cannot possibly argue against the fact that pulling a trigger on a shoulder fired weapon is NOT bowhunting.
In my bro in law camp, one guy shot a ten right between the eyes and buried the bolt in the back of the skull. Dropped the deer and couldn't get the "bolt" out of the skull. He is proud and getting it euro mounted. Will provide pics when they send. Was only a gun hunter until last year. AWESOME!!! LOL Lots of laughter they said... it made me sick!
It was definitely a money grab. The hunters voted them down every time in the spring hearings then the Legislators voted a resounding 96-0 in favor after the spring vote. To say it was not money related is completely misguided. If it wasn't money related, our Sportsmen for Walker Governor could have done the right thing and not signed it into law, but he did, going against all the Sportsmen for Walker. Pockets were lined although I feel 100% sure we'll be told otherwise in here.
Some states are still able to hold strong and not allow them in archery season. Kudos to those states. Perhaps they have not been "picked on" financially like WI was.
They are here to stay. They are full-inclusion. That ship has sailed. I don't see any of that changing. I've accepted it and moved on and I don't judge those who use them. We all hunt for different reasons. That's what makes America beautiful - we have choices.
My research around the time WI was caving to the cash cow showed that they did not add to hunter recruitment but that they moved hunters around the various seasons. The research showed that while xbow kills went up, vertical bows and gun kills lowered some and overall kills remained close to the norm. I think that has proven out the 1st 2 years in WI thus far but if I am wrong, I will surely be belittled/corrected.
"The research showed that while xbow kills went up, vertical bows and gun kills lowered some and overall kills remained close to the norm. I think that has proven out the 1st 2 years in WI thus far but if I am wrong, I will surely be belittled/corrected."
In this case, you will be congratulated on an accurate assessment of what has happened. Some people knew that would happen. I will add that, as you noted, it was unanimously supported by legislators from both parties. Had the governor not signed it into law, it would have been easily over ridden. I think any fair minded person would see the futility in doing that, particularly when considering a governor needs to work with all legislators. What should have been done was to never allow the idea to gain the momentum it did, but as hunters have demonstrated time and again, they are reactive rather than proactive. Some of the blame lies with the outdoor news publications, their editors and their writers as they never made any effort to fairly present both sides of this argument to the public. They too promote their agenda and viewpoint over giving all the facts.
Lastly, there is still a glimmer of hope, albeit a small one. A few forward thinking individuals and groups fought to have the crossbow season listed as a stand alone season rather than to have it enjoined with the current archery season. This means that with enough public outcry, the crossbow season could still be modified from its current form regarding length of season.
Crossbows are just the natural progression from 90% let off compounds. Most crossbow guys I know have left bowhunting for good. They are no longer bowhunters...... and most never will be again.
Jodie is completely off base on this one. A crossbow is a pre-cocked, shoulder fired weapon. The other is a hand drawn and held bow. The only "natural progression" between the two is that both weapons are manufactured, marketed and sold by the same companies and are allowed to be used during the same time frame.
Wrong, both have triggers, sights etc. Drawing a 95% let off compound about ten inches is no great feat, hope to tell you. Try a longbow my friend, they stack, they do not let off. We have crossbows because compound users wanted them, look who is buying crossbows. Time we all get over it but lets call it the way it developed. 30% let off, then 50, 65, 85, 95, then 100. I could get that right on an ACT or SAT, could you?
"Most crossbow guys I know have left bowhunting for good." I'm guessing that these guys were never really bowhunters in the first place. Just because you are out during the archery season does not really make you a bowhunter.
"I could get that right on an ACT or SAT, could you?" Only if comparing apples to oranges, my friend. But really, tell us how a brace height of 6 or 7 inches plus the ten you note equals the average draw length of 27 inches? Might want to rethink that ACT or SAT test.
If you want to play the blaming game, they should've never allowed compound bows in the archery season. Compounds and/or their equipment, primarily the release, have all gone through the similar growing pains. Even criticism on the Bowsite back in the 90s. I'm sorry, but I actually frequent a couple of the crossbow forums because there is no bickering amongst hunters on what they use. When you think about it from purely an analytical perspective, hunters who choose to use a compound with all the updated technical equipment, fiber optic sites, drop away rests, a release, wrist slings, stabilizers, carbon arrows etc... don't really have much to argue about. When you think about it that way, and what compound bows were like back in the 80's and 90's, it's pretty pointless. Compounds have gone through the same scrutiny in the past.
I will continue hunting with either or and be at peace with myself and not worry about the people out there with a cloud over their head still dwelling on the crossbow debate.
This is my second season hunting with a crossbow in Wisconsin. I still haven't taken a deer, but that's by choice. But of the deer I've seen while hunting, the crossbow wouldn't have offered any more of an advantage over my bow.
Tweed, Its hard to pick one thing and say that is too much technology . That being said I can draw the line , and its past time to start pushing back . My vote would be zero use in the archery season , regardless of your situation . The archery season is not for everyone . Unless you say that the exceptions will continue .
MHDA is still putting up a good fight here in Mn. and see the difference from across the River. Just talked to a gent that lives in Hager City that is 50 yrs old and told me he switched from the compound to the x-bow because he doesn't have to practice and had shot deer out to 80 yards easily on his dad's farm. I told him to send a thank you to Rep Mouldy, Chippewa Falls and the NRA for ramming it in, still have my WBH/PBS anti-cross bow button from the mid-80s. The only reason for it if you have a arm missing or a neuro-disease, the modern compound that are made today should disqualify for the use of the x-bow in the bow hunt. From friends that hunt Wi.Pubilc land they have seen a big negative difference in the last 2 yrs with the inclusion of the x-bow.
here's my 2 cents worth-
Crossbows are not archery equipment. They need to have their own season(which we already have.) If it is found that crossbows are being used to kill more deer than archery and guns, then the season should be shortened. (As promised...I mean, they blew smoke of the politicians butt's!)
We were sold a bag of goods, a pile of horse apples and the politicians had to get something out of this. The true hunter are the one's who got screwed.
I can think of a whole list of things, but most are not appropriate for the forum.....
I think they are easier to fire, probably more accurate, and much harder to hunt with. They are forward heavy, heavy in general, and clumsy. Off a rest, much easier than a bow of course, but overall, they suck! I shot one for the first time at 15 yards freehand with a scope, and I shot it high and right 6 inches high and 3 inches right. I am much much more prolific with my hand drawn compound. They are not compounds bows, and compound bows are not traditional bows, and traditional bows are not spears, and spears are not rocks. The point is, this is the natural progression sort of like our method to listening to music, watching TV, traveling, clothing etc.
I do not feel like we should have concurrent crossbow hunting with archery hunting, and some people would likely say that archery season shouldn't be so long? I don't think they are going anywhere, and hope our season isn't shortened to accommodate for a possible separate season for crossbows provided we see a greater overall kill rate during what was once, just archery season, but I certainly think they should be separated. I often hear people say they killed it with their bow, only to find out they killed it with their crossbow. So that means people are starting to look at the two as the same. I will say this. I feel like the vertical bow has greater advantages over the crossbow if shot freehand. That may not be the consensus, but it is my opinion. I will never use one, but I have had people I know buy them and use them. I know it has drafted people that did not hunt before. These same people are not better hunters, nor are they killing more deer because of the weapon of choice, at least the ones I know. Most people that love archery will not switch to crossbow. People that gun hunted and were weekend warriors that were not very dedicated to hunting versus killing are traditionally the people that use them the most. this of course does not apply to all hunters.
Pete, the seasons are now separated. It just happens that the legislators ordered the seasons to run concurrent with each other for the first two years, after which they each can be managed on their own merit.
Yes, I realize that, but being concurrent, they are in all actuality merged to the point, that they are conceived as the same weapon. I was aware of the 2 year trial, but it sure has seemed like it's been 2 years already lol. I hope they make a decision that doesn't bite into our season albeit a long great season.
Pete-You definitely have a point. How many fellas would "drop a dime" if you knew a guy shot the thing with a shoulder fired weapon and was having it scored P&Y? I sure would.
Good post woodsdweller.
They are not altogether seperate seasons that just happen to run congruent to one another. I cannot buy a crossbow and real bow liscense. I have to choose one or the other. If they were completely seperate I should be able to buy a gun, crossbow, and bow liscense, thereby being able to legally shoot three bucks per season and not just two. And then under the lesser weapon rule I should be able to use my bow for all three tags.
Lets just hope they stay separate. The xgun people have a huge $$ interest in this, and they already have an established season here. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to see a bill drafted to abolish the separation clause.
"They are not altogether seperate seasons that just happen to run congruent to one another." Yes CD, they are completely separate. You need to buy a separate license for each, although one is deeply discounted if you buy the other. But don't take my word for it. Do some investigation of your own. You will find that, according to the law as it is written, they are indeed separate licenses that happen to have seasons that run concurrent with each other.
According to the DNR deer harvest summary attached, so far this year there is a total "archery" kill of 43,149 deer. Of that, 34,468 were crossbow kills. That is 79.9% crossbow kills. How soon do you think that number will be over 90%? Next year, the year after?
Archery season, as we have known it, is a thing of the past. Crossbows have their place and should be reserved for those who could not hunt the archery season without one. I skipped the bow season this year after developing bursitis in my left shoulder in September which would not allow me to pull back my bow. If I had $5 from everyone who told me to get a crossbow I could have gotten one. Except, I don't want to get one. The able-bodied people getting crossbows will often tell you they are no easier to kill with than a regular bow. Really? If they didn't think they were easier they would not be buying one.
The link lists archery as 43000 and xbow at 34000 for a total of 77000. So that's 44% of non firearm kills (again... shooting a xbow is not archery) has been xbow.
It will be interesting to see the success rates for each. How many licenses to tags filled at the end of the year.
Total Archery kill 43,149 Total Crossbow kill 34,468 Total Combined kill 77,617 % of total kill by Crossbow 44.4%
I believe that the 96-0 vote would have been different had the NRA kept it's nose and money out of the battle. Can't tell me there wasn't any money laid down there for the politicians. There was a supposed 2 year trial period for x-guns, but it won't make a difference what the data says. We are stuck with a far superior weapon used in the general archery season and we're all going to suffer the consequences. What ever the case may be, vertical bow hunters will take it in the shorts. Hopefully we will find out very soon if the season will be impacted. I just don't have a good feeling on how the season will be impacted.
Cap, i just called for clarification, you buy your archery liscense then a $3 crossbow upgrade. So technically it is a different liscense and season that runs congruent with real bow season. I cannot however buy my archery tag and a crossbow liscense seperately and be able to kill two bucks with two seperate archery tags so there is some overlap.
Now that I'm clear on that I wonder if they change the xbow season so it doesn't run congruent if you will then be able to buy two seperate liscenses and kill two archery bucks. It if you will still have to chose your weapon and your tag will still be lumped together.
I'm fine with one buck a year but if I could have three seperate liscenses I would buy all three and try for a three buck year. All with the REAL bow.
PB agree with you and thanks for posting the link.
So, playing devil's advocate here. As I noted in my 1st post and as Capt Mike verified, research from the other states with xbows showed that the kill #s basically just moved around but the net-net was practically the same.
Now, let's look at the archery kills in WI starting with 2006:
2006 - 113K+, 2007 - 116K+, 2008 - 99K+, 2009 - 87K+, 2010 - 83K+, 2011 - 90K+, 2012 - 94K+, 2013 - 87K+, 2014* - 81K+, 2015* - 87K+
In looking at those numbers where 2014 and 2015 were a combination of vertical bows and xbows, the numbers are right in line with the other seasons when xbows were not allowed.
So, maybe when you look at the numbers historically, the sky will not fall? I know that xbow hunters have not impacted my hunting experience in any manner. There are still plenty of deer out there. One can't blame what has happened in the north numbers wise on xbows. Please note that I am NOT an xbow advocate, I just choose to look at things open minded and my original research made me believe xbows would be much hoopla over nothing. Statistically speaking, that has been true thus far.
Question though - this is year 3. What happened to the 2 year trial?
I made the switch from compound to crossbow a few years ago after breaking my sternum. I consider myself a deer hunter. When I talk about hunting with my crossbow I make sure to mention 'crossbow', because that is what I use. I get dark looks from some people when I mention crossbow, but they can go pound sand for all I care.
I hunt deer. My tools are either a crossbow or a rifle, depending on the time of year. I look at people who hunt with traditional gear or compounds as the same... Deer Hunters. Why people care about what other people use to legally hunt is past my caring threshold.
In my personal ring of friends I am the only person who uses a crossbow.
Happy, I'll try and answer the last question first. For the first two years, the law mandated that the crossbow season run concurrent with the regular archery season. After that initial two year period, the department can change the crossbow season framework if they choose to, for whatever reason(s) they might cite. It never specified that the crossbow season must be changed by law after that period. My guess is that the department will not do anything regards changing the crossbow season until or unless they have either a biological reason to so or due to political pressures. Because our deer herd is overall in very good shape, I don't think we will see any change due to biological reasons. That leaves political pressure as the only trigger that might motivate them to change or adjust that season. Those pressures will only come from deer hunters and only if in a large enough voice. The only deer hunting group with a loud enough voice to effect a change would be the firearm hunters. To this point, I have not heard any complaints from them so I doubt we will see any changes in the near future. Another variable that we now have are the CDAC's where deer management has been basically put in the hunters hands at the county level. Yes, I am getting a bit off topic but there are many variables that come into play and bottom line is, as long as our herd remains healthy, I doubt we will see any change.
From a selfish perspective, I think that archery hunters should be much more concerned with the antlerless hunt and the holiday hunt that will take place across a large portion of the state. During that time, archery hunters will only be able to shoot antlerless deer. That effectively takes away another couple weeks of potential bow hunting for bucks that we once enjoyed. Again, until we as a group become proactive instead of reactive, we can expect to see the season we once enjoyed being further eroded.
If it doesn't have a negative effect on the health of the herd why change it?
I have hunted and killed deer with a gun (first), then a bow, and now a crossbow. I consider myself a deer hunter more than an archer. I look at the fall as deer season. I still pull out a gun this week. Have stands I like to use a bow from and stands I would use a crossbow from. I am much better free handed with a bow (compound) and feel more accurate under 30 with it than the crossbow, unless the crossbow is on a shooting rest, which limits where I would use it. I plan on teaching my children how to hunt with a crossbow first and may never teach them to use a gun, which is one of the reasons I picked one up. I also like the idea of getting my wife a little more involved in deer hunting in the earlier season, better family affair. I like the idea that my kids can't load a crossbow physically, which gives me more piece of mind that they won't play with it like I think they may play with my guns (locked in a safe, but still). I like the lack of kick so they don't develop a flinch at age 10...
I still bow hunt. I don't think they are the same, but in the end to me hunting and killing is just that. I let lots of animals go, and kill a few. I tend not to shoot beyond 30 even in gun season so to me it is very much a game of getting them in range. No doubt easier to not get busted on shifting a crossbow so long as you have a rail. I feel more confident that I will have an opportunity to kill something during the crossbow season, so I am overall probably more selective than I used to be when I would just bow and gun hunt, in that I feel like I don't have to take the first good shot that I can get drawn back on because it may only happen once to me, or shoot the one fork that walks through in gun because I didn't shoot the meat bowhunting... I prefer the crossbow over gun enough that I would consider not using a gun in the future... But more of a gun replacement to me than a bow replacement. I think that a bow hunter over bait is less the hunter than a crossbow hunter no bait...
My 2 cents.
I spoke my piece in the Northwood's thread but I will post my two cents here as well. I don't have a problem with the guys who hunt with a rifle, shotgun, crossbow, compound bow, or recurve as long as they are doing things legally and they make a quick kill with their weapon of choice.
Someone above pointed out the numbers the last few years and I really don't see much difference so maybe people who used to use a compound or recurve switched to crossbow. Those of you saying that crossbows will bring more hunters to the archery season, doesn't appear that this is happening. Those folks who are gun hunters, may purely stay gun hunters and not pick up a crossbow for archery hunting.
Few days left for the 9-day gun season but the numbers that I've seen are down slightly from the previous year. The weather wasn't the best opening day this year which could account for the down numbers, I suppose. I will be heading up north to hunt Thursday-Saturday morning. Buck only where I will be but maybe I can stumble upon a dumb one.
Brew Mike, I think that you will find a decline in the number of firearm hunters and an increase in the number of crossbow hunters. Same with archery vs. crossbows. There is a correlation.
It is not archery, it is not bow hunting. However, I see no issue with them being allowed during the archery season. It increases hunting opportunity and does not impact archery hunters like a rifle or muzzle loader would.
My son is 11 years old and not able to pull sufficient weight to shoot a compound, but has killed 5 deer with a crossbow in Texas. He is miles ahead of where he would be in terms of shot placement and just hunting in general than he would be otherwise. The ranch I hunt is archery only, but crossbows are allowed for kids and older guys who cannot shoot a compound. It does not impact those of us who are bow hunting.
I have to admit though, I think a crossbow is more dangerous than a compound. However, I think it can be safely used.
How can we argue with the idea that the faster someone can kill something they are ahead . A few years back I was starting to think that the deer were the new small game . Perfect for kids and first time hunters . Im now convinced that the deer are perfect for kids and I believe the cross bow is perfect weapon for them to use . I think its time to move on to Big Game , the kids can have the deer LOL
I have used a crossbow and have for 8 years now. No, I don't have to. So you say I'm not a "bow hunter" , I got over it . You say I'm too lazy to practice with a real bow. I got over it. You say I shouldn't be in the woods during " your" rut. I got over it. The point is, i really don't care what all you "experts" think or say. Get out there, do your own thing,enjoy your hunt as you see fit. As long as you leave me the f*** alone, we'll get along just fine. AFD
Hey Masterbait, spend a little more time in the stand, and a little less time on line, and you might just figure it out.. The sky ain't fallin... AFD
Again, you're a better hunter than me, I got over it
AFD
Again, you're a better hunter than me, I got over it
AFD
It does seem that the guys using the shoulder fired weapon are a little touchy. As it's been said before, If you don't like the thread, do not read it. I stayed off the site for about six months after getting barked at by a guy that uses the shoulder fired machine. And a lot of these guys refer to it as bowhunting? I may be a little sensitive to the spread of the shoulder fired machines but then I've been a bowhunter since about '75 and it's a passion. If the content of these posts bother you that much http://www.crossbownation.com/community/
"It does seem that the guys using the shoulder fired weapon are a little touchy."
Actually it seems to me like a few guys that are stuck in their ways and despise advancing technology and change in general can't seem to get over the fact that crossbows are now legal to use during the archery season and many people are using them and will continue using them AND a few of those folks might even make a post or 2 on this forum and there is no need to try and chase them away it'll all be OK and the sky is not falling. Although this thread is sad in many ways, it is a good reminder for me to try my best to not turn into a grumpy old guy that has to be a dick to everybody when I get older. Hunt legal and everybody wins. ;-)
AtFullDraw, Are you sure the sky isnt going to fall? Enlighten me on how you think Northern Wisconsins deer herd can handle another large user group? A 4 month season using a shoulder fired weapon good to about 50 yards with a rest? If you believe it will have no impact or consequences for gun or bow hunters in the future then your kidding yourself. 286,000 + combined licenses sold. Where will it top out? 300,000?, 400,000?
AFD said, "So you say I'm not a "bow hunter" , I got over it . You say I'm too lazy to practice with a real bow. I got over it. You say I shouldn't be in the woods during " your" rut. I got over it."
You may have "gotten over it" but you never did deny it.
So, in theory,( only). We could be in the same woods, on the same day, hunting out of the same tree, watching and shooting at the same deer, and you're better than me, because of the weapon you choose. I'm over it. You guys got bamboosealed with this separate season nonsense.. maybe too busy telling everyone how much better you are than me. You might believe that "Medical Marijuana " is only legal for the sick.. how many states have turned that around.. Crossbows are here to stay, like it or not. Time would be better spent getting off that high horse,and enjoying your hunt. The rest of us, got over it.. AFD
The only reason we could be in the same woods and at the same time is because the crossbow was allowed to be used during a period of time that has historically been set aside for archers. The crossbow is clearly not the same as a hand held and hand drawn bow, as you have so well highlighted for us. The reason hand held/drawn bows were allowed at a time of the year and to a smaller user group when bucks are more susceptible to being killed (rut) was because they were a less efficient killing weapon and demanded more dedication. That left less chance for the resource to be over harvested. The crossbow is a superior weapon and, as you and others have noted, requires no practice (which I call dedication).
We do agree that the crossbow is here to stay. It is here to stay because in this modern world of instant gratification, people such as yourself will seek the easy route. You and other able bodied crossbow users have fueled this with your laziness. Look in the mirror and then tell us how you "have gotten over it." It speaks far more than just your view on using a crossbow.
So your trying the old " if marijuana is legal, so should crossbows be" argument. Hey Wisconsin bowhunters, put that in your pipe and smoke it.
Retro, you missed the point on that..
This deserves repeating- "The reason hand held/drawn bows were allowed at a time of the year and to a smaller user group when bucks are more susceptible to being killed (rut) was because they were a less efficient killing weapon and demanded more dedication. That left less chance for the resource to be over harvested. The crossbow is a superior weapon and, as you and others have noted, requires no practice (which I call dedication).
Tweed is correct. Technology advances should lead to shorter seasons and less opportunity, already has in most of the west. A license "drawing" is the answer.
They need to limit the xgun season way way down, the whole thing was a stupid idea. Lazy hunters is all it draws. If you want to hunt the long bow season, dedicate yourself and learn to shoot a bow. Other than the elderly or handicapped, The hunters that go to them are lazy. I now went to a recurve to go out and shoot it just for the enjoyment of shooting it, let alone hunting with it. I believe the compound bow increased the recovery rate of animals shot which was a good thing. The act of drawing, anchoring on a close animal was there, but the accuracy increased. It would be hard to study, but I feel that xguns increased the loss of animals shot. Most I talked to are sighting those things for 80, 90, 100 yards. I think the majority that use these things will also shoot at an animal at those yardages. Its hard enough to get on a bloodtrail at times from a 20 yard shot with no snow gun or bow. When they push that shot beyond 40 yards, it would be impossible. I'm willing to bet most that shoot at animals through the woods at those yardages don't even know if or where they hit them. The lazy ones that never thought of bowhunting prior to there inclusion sure as hell aren't going to put the needed effort into making sure of a hit or not, or finding that first blood. It's a joke. The good thing it did for me was making me bow out of the high tech world and get back to bow shooting and bow hunting. The simplicity of the traditional equipment and the enjoyment of shooting them has increased my enjoyment of bow hunting ten fold, and I will never go back.
"The simplicity of the traditional equipment and enjoymentertainment of shooting them has increased my enjoyment of bowhunting ten fold, and I will never go back" - well said!
Maybe all you non lazy,great shot drawing, anchoring not over 20 yard guys can start a movement.. call it "Long Bows Matter" .. go protesting in Madison.. It'll do you as much good as whining here.. Get out there and hunt.. it'll help you get over it. AFD
Maybe all you non lazy,great shot drawing, anchoring not over 20 yard guys can start a movement.. call it "Long Bows Matter" .. go protesting in Madison.. It'll do you as much good as whining here.. Get out there and hunt.. it'll help you get over it. AFD
The hunting equipment is the issue, simple solution restrict the scope and release and that would be a big change and that goes for the scope in-line rifle load also ( can't call them muzzleloaders anymore). While we are at it the 65 yr old plus should have their own buck season right along with the youth, got to be fair to the seniors for putting up with special groups, since we are the last generation that came up the hard way.
Tweed in all the posts I have ever read on this subject, yours was the best, and I will print that out...... it is so, right on the money...............I also have to like what jjs says, the scope should be gone on the ml, maybe at 65 and over, and to you younger guy cry babies, get over it
I shoot a cheap inline muzzleloader and agree abouy not using a scope. I dont hunt agriculture areas so I only have it sighted in to 50yrds which is plenty of the woods and acurate with iron sights.
My comment above this one was me mearly quotinga portion of CaptMike's comment.
Guys that are shoulder fired machine aficionados and guys from other states seem like a guy that might be a Viking fan and go to a Packer website and tell everyone that the Packers are so over...Go Go Vikings. Bet there would not be a lot of guys scrambling for the acoustic guitar for Kum Ba Yah, building a campfire and reaching for the group hug. My belief is that guys come to this site to associate with guys that pretty much have the same beliefs. Again my $.02-LC
At full draw, you say your over it but the opinions of the anti cross gun folks seem to strike a chord with you. If your over it why do you care what a bunch of real bowhunters think? Your young man, put the damn crossbow down and pick up the bow while your able. Youth doesn't last forever. Your kills will be much more rewarding when you have to actually do something other than just pull a trigger.
There will become a coalition of ranchers and private land owners who only allow bowhunters to hunt, and deny crossbow hunters access. This movement will gain ground nationwide. I would rather see restricted access, than have hunters all lumped together as lazy technology killers in search of horns.
Two changes would make me feel better about crossguns. 1. Eliminate the scope. 2. Only legal for women, youth (12-14), disabled, and hunters 65+yrs old. There is absolutely no reason for a person who can pull back 35+lbs to use a crossgun.
How many have hunted with the bow and also the shoulder fired machine? Be honest. I have-in late October 2002 I could only move my left arm a few inches because of fighting a post-op staph infection (six surgeries-one for rotator cuff repair and five for debridement). I was convinced that the shoulder fired machine was the way to go. I decided that the rules were the same as the bow-close range and no magnification. I used a single Saunders T-dot to aim with. I did shoot a really nice eight point at about 8 yards. You will not convince me that it is the same-I did not have to move at all (except to curl my index finger). I saw him coming at 80 yards, picked the machine up and got ready. Some guys say they're front heavy (they are) and very hard to aim (not at close range). When I was standing over him a couple of moments later (I saw him fall) I realized that this was NOT in any way related to my archery passion. I sold the machine the next day-I'd quit before doing that again.
You crossbow user haters are helping to create even more of a division between hunters, which in the long run will do nothing other than hurt the sport of hunting, nice work, PETA would be proud of you. I still don't understand how some of you find it so difficult to pull back a compound bow with 75%+ let-off to shoot a deer. Carry on with your hating of other hunters, and when you see our hunting rights stripped away one by one you have no one to thank but yourselves for hating other hunters, either because you think you're extra skilled for being able to pull back a bow when a deer is in range OR you're still living in the 70's hating every new piece of technology that is created. Either way, it's no surprise that hunters can't/don't unite as a strong voice with haters like some of you grumbling on these forums.
"You crossbow user haters"-Again speaking about something you know little about. Your line of reasoning is flawed (at least in my case). " guys that are stuck in their ways and despise advancing technology and change in general"-I might surprise you in MANY ways but since you know little about me it's not about to change. I am asking about this just to see how many guys really know much about the topic-related my EXPERIENCE. I am only grumpy to guys that have earned it....
I'll pose the question again. If I shot a deer with a legal handgun, is that the same as traditional bow hunting? (Not shoulder fired and you have to be close range)
During the short gun season, sure. Give you September through January? Hell NO!!!!! and that was being nice.
The way some of you guys talk to each other is crazy. Is that how you speak to people face to face? Just an observation, carry on....
"You crossbow user haters are helping to create even more of a division between hunters, which in the long run will do nothing other than hurt the sport of hunting, nice work, PETA would be proud of you. I still don't understand how some of you find it so difficult to pull back a compound bow with 75%+ let-off to shoot a deer." Yes HunterR, because PETA types love to embrace ethical hunters and only hate the divisive ones. LOL, what a load of garbage that first portion is.
Then, dripping with hypocrisy, and right after admonishing others to not be divisive, you state the second portion, regarding the purported ease of shooting a deer with a 75% let off. But, that does nothing to pit one hunter against another? What a joke, and you expect anyone to take your opinion seriously??
"I'll pose the question again. If I shot a deer with a legal handgun, is that the same as traditional bow hunting? (Not shoulder fired and you have to be close range)" Dan, do you really need someone to explain the difference between a bow and a firearm to you?
One goes bang and the other goes twang? What I'm saying is to hunt with a legal handgun is only different from a bow in the aspect of you pull the trigger vs. pulling a string back. You have to put in all the same work up until that moment, and with a handgun you have the same range. There's no scope and it's not shoulder fired.
CaptMike +1....... You hit a couple home runs there !!!!!
Dan- a hand gun has a lot further range. I wouldnt shoot a deer with an arrow more than 25 yards with my set up and most would only go as for as 40 max. The last gun deer I took was with a pistol at 70-80 yards with a one shot to the heart
"Yes HunterR, because PETA types love to embrace ethical hunters and only hate the divisive ones." No one said anything like that, try to pay attention Captain.
"What a joke, and you expect anyone to take your opinion seriously?" I'm reminded of long ago, when you clearly stated you were going to ignore all posts I made from that day forward. What a joke. ;-)
Normal foolishness I can ignore, stupidity I cannot.
Lets settle this then. Because Trad hunters are the only 'real' archers, they should retain the normal archery season from Sept. to Jan. 'Shoulder fired weapons, cross guns, deer murdering machines, or what ever you care to call them,' will get a much shorter season that will run congruent to the 'hand fired weapons, compound-gun, vertical archery machine, what ever you care to call them.' that will run the end of Oct. into the gun deer season. Muzzle loading season will retain the same dates.
Since I think that deer hunting should not be for everyone I think we need to up the requirements to make hunting more 'manly.' New requirements include:
Trad hunters- minimum draw weight of 55lbs, arrows must be out of natural material and must be tipped with hand forged (by the hunter) or hand knapped arrowheads.
Gun hunters- minimum bullet diameter of .375 with a minimum of 4500 ft.lbs of energy measured at the muzzle. Furthermore, hunters must prove proficient in their weapon by shooting 30 consecutive rounds in a 6'' circle at 100 yds, either prone, sitting or standing positions.
Compound gun- Minimum draw weight of 60lbs and since we are discriminating here, minimum draw length of 28.5'' No one many hunt with any product that says 'rage' on the package.
Cross gun- Minimum draw weight of 150lbs. Hunters must sign an affidavit that they will not shoot a deer greater then 40yds away.
Muzzle loaders- Must be flint lock .500 caliber or greater. Minimum barrel length will be set at 30''. Hunters can only use a patched round ball that they have taken the time to cast themselves. No scopes.
There is more to worry about than what's already established and has been given a season. The AirBow is the next latest and greatest.
DT is correct, A representative of Jim Shockeys has been nosing around the Capitol, looking for an ear from anyone willing to listen. Shockey has Benjamin, the air gun people as a sponsor, and they are certainly looking to expand their line. While this is a ways off, this is how it starts. Canadian, you run with that.
Did we get this resolved yet?
I find the discussion surrounding labels amusing. Ever notice the word 'bowhunter' is not even a word? Even typing here on the Bowsite, it comes up as a misspelled word. It's as if the word 'hunter' was the generic label to call someone who hunted game, but when hunting with bows became 'trendy' we had to come up with a label to classify ourselves separately from 'gunhunters'. I guess is like the label, 'flyfisherman'. I don't hunt bows, so in the spring I'm a turkey hunter and in the fall I'm a deer hunter.
Very well put woodsdweller. Landowners, ranchers, voters and the general public need to be re-educated that bowhunters do not use crossbows.
Knife2, why cant you just be a year round "hunter?"
Why are crossbow hunters even on a bowhunting site? Does Bowsite consider crossbow hunters to be bowhunters? Does the WBH, P&Y? I know the superficial answer, looking for the hard answer.
So as pointed out once before, taking facts into account from a non-xbow advocate who is open minded, when the deer kill numbers simply move across the seasons versus going through the roof like everyone thinks is happening, why the ruckus? The results from Ohio and other states including MI have shown that overall (overall is the key here) deer kills stay virtually static but the weapons change. Although I might not be a fan of xbows, I still don't see the issues as the numbers have not proven the negative arguments people throw about.
Just go back to the 70s and relive this same argument when compounds hit the woods in bigger numbers. There is some hypocrisy from compound hunters who choose to overlook the past.
I'm a compound bow hunter, not a real bow hunter. I truly believe the only real bow hunters are those who shoot trad. I wish I had the time and energy to become proficient with a trad bow. The rest of us chased technology and took the easy way out whether people agree with that or not. I really don't care what titles people put on themselves or others as it means absolutely nothing.
I've got to agree Happy. I give myself the title of hunter. I'm an archer first, but I also hunt with a gun. Crossbow in my opinion has more drawbacks (pun intended) than advantages. I choose my compound....nothing real fancy, but I certainly started with the raw recurve. I would certainly say there's a much larger divide between the traditional archer to the modern compound archer, than there is between the modern compound archer than the crossbow archer. Once again, I think (speaking of the freehand perspective), the modern compound outperforms the crossbow for a few reasons that keep me from pursuing the next obvious weapon that many people felt was easier. I know a couple of these people. They were not very serious about archery before, and feel more confident now, but don't hunt any more because of it. Guys that shoot from a rest in my opinion are not likely experiencing the same satisfaction that I would feel, but perhaps enjoy it nonetheless. I may not choose the weapon, or the method, but as long as it's legal, I can hardly bitch about it?
You might change your mind if you came to our local range and saw guys shooting their cross guns at the 100 yard target I shoot my rifle at. When a weapon is legal to hunt deer during the archery season that you do not have to draw back, that's a problem.
Jodie....its all about dollars to the bowsite
RJN, very good point. Happy, to this point we may not be seeing any negative impact from crossbow use but that does not mean it can not happen in the future. Time will tell, but if and when it does, we will once again be reactive instead of proactive. That is almost always a more difficult position to fight any issue from.
Im not a fan of x guns. I fall under the "disabled" act and could have used one for years. I could have gun hunted from my vehicle if I wanted. did I, hell no. I think the old law was fine and nothing wrong with a disabled person using one if that was their choice. I find that technology has passed me by in many aspects of my life and this will most certainly continue to happen. I cant use traditional bows anymore but will never go to an xgun. I have my bow set at 50# and is more than enough juice to get the job done. My opinion is that if xgun are going to be legal for use it needs to have a shorter season than archery has. Just because it shoots and arrow doesn't make it a archery weapon. When I was young we used to shoot arrows out of a 410 using a cut shell but that didn't make it an archery weapon. Not much difference beside safety factor. I believe if you want to hunt archery season it should not be with a xgun. I don't care what some say but 90% of xgunners are out for the easy kill and limited time to do so. I have already heard of tons of stories how xgunners have missed a nice bucks at 120yrds. come on who are we fooling trying to put this weapon in a extended archery season. Hate to say it but its the same reason kids don't want to do anything but play their electronics nowadays, laziness. These are the same guys that sit in the stand and play games on their cell phones waiting for a deer to come to them. Im to old to understand it I guess or more importantly I just refuse to understand it.
Xtrout, I agree with almost everything you said except the fact that I sit in my stand with my phone in my hands reading bowsite. Good post nonetheless.
Tried the Chat line this evening to get the answer but it is down. I have not read all of the posts so this question might have already been asked. When you buy your archery license it asks you Crossbow or regular archery. If you buy the Crossbow license does this mean you cannot use a bow with the Crossbow license? or can you.
I found the answer: Bows, arrows and crossbows • Crossbows and bow and arrows may be used by any person hunting under the authority of a gun deer license during any firearm (i.e., gun deer or muzzleloader) deer season. note: when hunting under the authority of an archer license, only bows and arrows are allowed. When hunting under the authority of a crossbow license, only a crossbow is allowed.
This ad...... How long until we get a 200yd cross gun...
That's the thing. Technology for conventional bows has basically topped out. Tech for crossbows is pretty much limitless.
I was reading a "Bowhunting" magazine and they kept making points for guys using the shoulder-fired machines. Got to looking and about 40% of their full page color ads were for the machines. I guess money DOES talk. Wonder who got the money for full inclusion in Wisconsin? I still have to wonder-if they are indeed a short range machine-why the need for a scope?
Ya, but there are those who say they offer no advantage over compounds, or my longbow. LOL, LOL, LOL like Brutus in the Popeye cartoons.....
Says it all amd should be grouped accordingly "Meet your next rifle"
Don't you remember all the folks saying they're not an advantage? Just because it's accurate to 100 yds, comes with a scope and is only 6 inches wide doesn't mean it creates an unfair advantage. After all, it may be "heavy" and "cumbersome". I envision a telescoping fold down rest off the front of this thing. How many of us can say that if we used this weapon we'd have at least 1 extra kill each year. I get a lot of bucks in that 50-100 range every year. If this was my weapon of choice I can garuntee id have more bucks on my wall. I can also garuntee I'd not be able to lie and call those bucks archery kills.
This seems like a fun thing to use during the gun and muzzy season if your looking to extend your shooting range and still not have the "boom" that a gun provides. It definitely does not belong in archery season but now with full inclusion how do we stop it?
I'd give them muzzy season too...just to play politics and throw them a bone. ..see if theyre a good dog or not.
Id give them muzzy season as well. I hate to admit it but that gun actually looks pretty cool. If you showed me that and said you were only going to use it during a legal gun season, I think I'd be rooting for you. Archery season, that's another story.
"Wonder who got the money for full inclusion in Wisconsin?" Lame, every legislator! They bowed to the NRA.
That horse left the barn. Its sad that what 45% of the stick harvest was xbows? I guess i am old but i flung arrows from 68' till my first harvest in 74'. Yes i shoot a 304fps wheelie bow so hats off to the longbow guys but i hope i die before i have to xbow hunt.
November forever dont have to die to not xbow hunt just when the time comes pass on it. Take someone bowhunting and teach them the ways of the woods, you will appreciate the hidden rewards that will come from that opportunity.
Amazing how many left bowhunting for the crossbow machine thing. Novemberforever has some good points and bowhunting values.
I used to feel similarly to many of you as far as crossbow use during archery season goes when it was just being talked about. I thought that it would have a negative impact on the number of deer taken in my area and there would be more people hunting. Neither has happened nor have I seen any negative consequences of crossbow use as it is, in fact it has turned out to be a blessing to me. Why you ask, well after hunting for 27 years with a compound bow, I got to the point at the end of last year that I felt I could no longer pull back and hold enough weight on my compound to make an ethical and clean kill. I was faced with either quitting archery season altogether or get a crossbow. I decided to go with the later and get a crossbow this summer and haven't looked back. I never imagined that I wouldn't be able to use a compound at age 40 but that's just the cards the good Lord dealt me. I wouldn't have qualified for a doctor authorization to use a crossbow so the option for me to use one was a great option. I love being able to hunt before and after the gun season when it is quiet and the deer are moving normally. I harvested my first deer with it on 12/2, a big doe. For me the excitement and rush of shooting her was just as awesome as any deer I have taken in the past. I am very greatfull to be able to continue hunting on my family farm as I have for so many years.
Let's also not forget that us as hunters need to band together as a group instead of separating and fighting with each other. There tons of anti-hunters trying to take away our hunting rights every day and they love to see us fight against one another. When we stand strong together we can win that battle.
Let me clarify a bit. Yes I am indeed a crossbow hunter now and what I meant by "archery season" was the time period that it takes place in. I am very greatful that I can continue to hunt during the same time period as I have for so many years.
November +1........ I will never hunt with a crossbow. NEVER !!!
These one of, anecdotal stories do little to describe the effect statewide but let me offer one to counter that of Buffalo. I have a friend whom I have known for 35 years who harvested less than 5 deer in 31 years. Since switching to a crossbow, he has killed 7 deer in 4 years. They are simply a much more efficient killing weapon than a hand held, hand drawn bow and definitely have the ability to affect our hunting season framework.
I have a coworker who lost all his fingers on one hand except for his thumb in a farming accident. He still shoots a compound. I asked him why he doesn't switch to a xgun, he said 'that's not bowhunting'.
thank you captain mike, other than those who need them for physical reason, they have no, d.. place in the archery season....... yes our politicians got them thru, bunch of fat asses, who spend no time in the woods,,,,,,,,, I am not against them for over 65, or those who have physical needs, but for every tom dick and harry,, its a joke........
The people who use them. Have to wake up each morning. N look in the mirror. If it makes them feel like a Bowhunter more power to them.
For those of you who have shown a dislike of crossbow hunting, especially since it coincides with the archery season the way it sounds, what negative impacts have you experienced while hunting in your area that was caused by crossbow hunters?
A neighbor of mine won an xgun at a DU event, his wife went out that weekend and used it to shoot a nice 8pt. She never hunted other than gun before... Yes green eyed monster a little bit, but she said and I quote "I'd of never been out there with a real bow, but this was so easy"..... Lazy hunting should be done in 9 days in November... Or preferably those 9 days should be pushed into Dec....
A neighbor of mine won an xgun at a DU event, his wife went out that weekend and used it to shoot a nice 8pt. She never hunted other than gun before... Yes green eyed monster a little bit, but she said and I quote "I'd of never been out there with a real bow, but this was so easy"..... Lazy hunting should be done in 9 days in November... Or preferably those 9 days should be pushed into Dec....
The bottom line is the Dnr wants A) license revenue B) dead deer. The lawmakers want lobby $$$. So 2016 saw 44% of all stick kills with an xbow. What will it be in 2026? 66%? Until the shrinking 3 day gun dudes get passionate, which they never will, xbows for 4 months are not going away. Have they affected me? Yes, our disabled hunter as enjoyed 30 years of xbow hunting. Beyond that, nope. I have many friends in their 50's-60's, all of them hunt vertical. In fact xbows never come up in conversation. The Dnr will limit xbows when they take scopes off 200 yd inline mls. Do i hang with able bodied xbowers? Nope. They also dont shoot in my 3d group.
Crossbows are here to stay. Bowhunters do not use crossbows, they use hand drawn bows. Crossbows have altered the image of the archery season to voters and landowners, and not for the better. Crossbows have led to the decline of bowhunting organizations and local archery clubs. Crossbows will lead to decreased opportunity for all hunters as seasons become shortened, harvest tags limited to a draw, etc. I am not speaking specifically of Wisconsin but bowhunting in North America. More seasons will close when quotas are met, we already have that in many areas. Now it has become easier to get to the quota, which shortens the seasons. The more we do not limit and challenge ourselves as hunters, the more regulation and mandated limits we can expect. There is a reason bow seasons are long, and gun seasons short. Now expect archery seasons to become shorter or more limited in some fashion,........... and they should be. A bowhunter does NOT use a crossbow, crossbow hunters do...............
Jodie hit the nail on the head, the reason I was against full inclusion of the xbow, for anybody, was what she has said,,, decreased opportunity as seasons become shortened due to the effectiveness of the xbow,,,,, just look at what is going on now, it will only be a matter of time,,,,,,,,,
Thank you , crossbowers for what you are slowly doing to Wisconsins archery season. To all you cross bowers...Thanks for all the lies you told at meeting and hearings. Its heavy, short range weapon and hard to use. And...... Lets not forget our elected officials and the wonderful NRA.... Anything for a buck. Oh yea .... the crossbow federation ....tell us again how hard it was to get a disabled permit to hunt. My dad got his first disabled permit this year.... handed to doctor .... he signed it and mailed it in. NO CHARGE...... You cross gunners should be ashamed.
Again with the lazy thing when it comes to people who hunt the 9-day gun season, why are these people lazy? Just because they shoot a gun during the gun season which is perfectly legal by the way, they are lazy! Ok, makes complete sense! There was a thread on this forum, a bow hunting forum and many of the people on this site said they would be picking up their gun for the gun season. They must be lazy, huh? Just because we all don't have 4 months to deer hunt doesn't make us lazy. Peoples priorities are different! Just because you hunt every day for 4 months doesn't make you any better than those people who hunt the 9-days during the gun season.
Now, as far as the whole crossbow business goes. I have no problem calling these people non-bowhunters. Call them crossbow hunters or whatever you want but they are still hunters. Some people seem to believe that you can shoot these things at 200 yards. I've never ran into anyone who has their crossbow sighted in for 200 yards. I don't know anyone who has there crossbow sighted in for 100 yards. I'm not saying that it can't be done but I personally don't know of any crossbow hunters who have a pin in their scope/sight for anything in either of those ranges. If you are efficient and practice with your compound, hell you can go out to 60 (if not more) yards. Look at many of the guys who go out west, I will almost guarantee they practice at those distances. I know a crossbow hunter and I've shot his crossbow and that individual hasn't taken a shot on a deer over 30 yards. That person also happens to be a pretty awesome human being and one of my best friends for over 20 years. I don't consider him lazy, he isn't a bow hunter, but he is a hunter.
Someone above asked how crossbow hunters have negatively impacted you and no one has said anything constructive. Has there been an increase in hunter deaths because of crossbows? I haven't seen anything to support that. Has there been additional hunter confrontation? Again, I haven't seen anything to support that. Has there been an increase in the overall archery hunting season harvest (bow and crossbow combined when you compare year to year)? I think many of you have said there hasn't. So, again I ask you how have you been negatively impacted by crossbow hunters?
This was my first year ever taking a deer, never would've happened if crossbows weren't legal. I didn't have the time or place to practice my shot enough each week for me to feel confident in taking a deer with a bow (which was my first choice). At this point in my life a crossbow was a better fit and got me out into the woods which is the important thing. I wasn't "pretending" to be anything, I was just having fun and filling out a tag, not sure why some of you feel the need to judge someone based on that.
X2 buckmaster. It was all b.s. just to get what they wanted. And they got it. Sad.
In my experiences hunting with a crossbow for the first time this year it was quite a learning curve and not as easy to harvest a deer as many think it is. My max comfortable range with a crossbow is 40 yards under perfect conditions the same as was when using my vertical bow. On comparing hunting with a vertical bow and a crossbow there are some distinct disadvantages using a crossbow. First, shooting freehand, I could hold a vertical bow steadier at longer ranges than a crossbow so that limits the distance I can shoot it. Second, my range of motion with a crossbow is limited because of the width of it. I had a number of deer that were somewhat behind my tree and I could not swing my crossbow around to without hitting my tree. With a vertical bow it would have been no trouble at all because of the narrow width of it. Third, yes indeed they are heavy. Those of you that have never used one would be surprised how quickly your arms tire after holding it up for only a short time. Fourth, they are loud when a bolt is released. That decreases the distance you can effectively shoot a deer at as well as they can more easily duck the bolt/arrow because of the excess sound. Fifth, you only have 1 shot with a crossbow. It is very difficult and not real safe to be cocking your crossbow while in a tree stand. With a vertical bow that can be done much more easily and quietly.
I'm just trying to educate those who are unfamiliar hunting with a crossbow, that there challenges to using them just as there are with vertical bows. Some people make it sound as though it is so easy to shoot a deer with a crossbow and I find it no easier than a vertical bow. The good part is that it allows those who can't pull back a vertical bow, to still be able to get out in God's creation and enjoy it.
I want to send money to support the P&Y club but am concerned they may eventually accept crossbows as bowhunting. They have a history of accepting more and more let off in the compound bow ranks, and I wonder where it will all end. I read their mission statement linked here. Are there any discussions they may eventually allow crossbows into their ranks?
PY club has a strong stance vs xbows. Lit knocks and let off % is different then not having to draw back. BC club doesn't care. So the xbower can net 165 and enter bc.
Brew, it is lazy because the crossbow people are using a weapon which is easier to master during a more primitive weapon season, one that had the length and timing of it set based upon the comparative difficulty of use. No, gun hunters who hunt during the gun season are not lazy. However, I'd consider them lazy if they lobbied the powers that be to use their firearms during a primitive weapons season. You need to consider the overall context of their usage.
Actually, if you re-read what you posted, you will see that you answered your own question. "If you are efficient and practice with your compound, hell you can go out to 60 (if not more) yards." The key is practice and becoming proficient, something that is not needed to use a crossbow and where the lazy moniker comes from.
Have I been impacted? Nope, not yet. But, the day may come when I might be impacted. That day will be when the gun hunters realize that they are seeing fewer and fewer bucks, due to the fact that crossbow use during a time period when the bucks are more vulnerable has taken more deer off the landscape. Remember, gun hunters are the single largest group of hunters we have in the state.
"Some people make it sound as though it is so easy to shoot a deer with a crossbow and I find it no easier than a vertical bow. ". Well 44% of all stick kills were xbows.my guess is that group may have had a 5% success rate vertical. A couple guys here stated they could not getit done because (fill in execuse here) with a vertical and now its easy peezy.
I do not consider a compound bow a primitive weapon with the amazing technology that has been developed in them. Now a simple recurve bow with no sights or mechanical broad heads or anything of the such, would truly be a primitive weapon. Hats off to those individuals that have mastered the use of them and harvested game with them as well.
Jodie-no conversations as to including those shoulder-fired machines. The P&Y club is the ARCHERY record keeping club. I've been a regular member for quite a while and am proud of the fact. Some do not like the club but no worries. A meeting is where you rub elbows with like-minded archers (that is the way it should be on the BOWSITE). If I knew of someone that tried to include a shoulder-fired machine killed animal into the book I sure would "drop a dime".
CaptMike,
Couple things - 1.) If you think out of the box you can simply take your crossbow in the woods and shoot out to 60 yards your nuts. While it may not require as much time/effort you will still need to work at it and practice at those distances. 2.) "Have I been impacted? Nope, not yet. But, the day may come when I might be impacted." Let me sum up this statement, I'm going to worry about something that may never truly impact me. Frankly, I haven't heard of one person who has come up with an encounter with a crossbow hunter where they did something that was so egregious to warrant these fears. 3.) "That day will be when the gun hunters realize that they are seeing fewer and fewer bucks, due to the fact that crossbow use during a time period when the bucks are more vulnerable has taken more deer off the landscape. Remember, gun hunters are the single largest group of hunters we have in the state." Look at the gun season kill this year, the buck kill was greater this year than the antlerless harvest and in some areas the buck kill went up considerably. Again many of you have said the numbers as they stand currently aren't producing huge changes to the archery season. What I see is guys who used to be compound bow users switching to crossbow and it really bends a huge group of people out of shape. If they used to bow hunters but instead decide to be crossbow hunters, then what's the big deal? Were there 10 of thousands of extra archery tags sold this year, compared to previous years? When I ask that I'm saying collectively if you compare compound and crossbow tags together sold this year compared to previous archery season now that we have a distinction in tags.
I feel like a large majority of people are simply passing judgement before seeing the true effect. It may take years before we have solid numbers that we can compare. While the Fall was mild it's looking like this winter may be much colder and snowier than the past couple that we've had and that will have way more impact on the deer herd.
BB, you may not consider them primitive but the law in WI does. Not so with crossbows. They have their own crossbow season and only through lobbying efforts by manufacturers and the NRA did they get a season that currently runs the same as the archery season.
"If you think out of the box you can simply take your crossbow in the woods and shoot out to 60 yards your nuts." Brew, sorry to tell you, I am not "nuts." I have done exactly that, and not with me shooting it but by having legislators shoot it at a shooting event we set up to demonstrate the effectiveness of a crossbow. They were rock stars after one shot, using a crossbow we had already sighted in. What experience do you have with them and to what extent?
"Frankly, I haven't heard of one person who has come up with an encounter with a crossbow hunter where they did something that was so egregious to warrant these fears." Please enlighten us, just how many have you come in contact with who have professed that they have or have not had egregious encounters. While you are at it, define what you mean by "egregious."
First you say, "Look at the gun season kill this year, the buck kill was greater this year than the antlerless harvest and in some areas the buck kill went up considerably." Then you say, "It may take years before we have solid numbers that we can compare." Sorry, can't have it both ways. Which is it?
CaptMike,
1.) Key here is it was already sighted in. Give that same crossbow not assembled and fresh from the box to those legislators and see what they can do with it. They wouldn't know there ass from there head! 2.) I don't have much experience with crossbows but I have the general basics. I shot a good friend of mines over the archery season and I can see situations where they are more difficult to use than my compound. I believe there to be advantages and disadvantages to both. 3.) I asked you if you had any encounters with crossbow hunters that lead to confrontation or where these individuals did something to personally effect you. Hunting public land I've ran into 3 crossbow hunters over the past two seasons and in each case I held conversations with those hunters. They weren't terrible people like you all seem to think they are. Each time we talked about the usual stuff hunters talk about; what we were seeing and where we were hunting to avoid interrupting each other. All I'm saying is you want to immediately write off the people based on weapon choice, that is your right. I'm going to give these people the benefit on the doubt, I don't own the land or the deer. 4.) You complained that the gun hunters would be seeing fewer bucks, this gun season didn't support that view, that's what I was saying with my first sentence. My next sentence was me saying that it will take some time before we know the true impact on the archery season and gun season. Hopefully, that clears that up.
People in the archery community wonder why their ranks are being depleted look at what a self centered and selfish group you are. We need less deer hunters so there are more deer for the big M-E. The gun season is too long, the tag structure stinks, the list goes on and on. I feel like I'm beating a dead horse. I think I've spoken my opinion on the matter and we aren't going to agree and I'm ok with that.
Brew, do you really think it is difficult to sight in a shoulder fired weapon? Especially one that can be discharged from a rest? C'mon, be real.
"They weren't terrible people like you all seem to think they are." I defy you to find any instance where I have stated that a crossbow hunter is a terrible person. You can't, I know that for a fact.
"All I'm saying is you want to immediately write off the people based on weapon choice..." Again, you are absolutely dead wrong. I dislike those who want to use a superior weapon during a time of the year when deer are more vulnerable. Vertical bow hunters were given the season they have due to the limitations of the weapon they use. Yes, my motivations are selfish. I want to see an older age structure to the deer. I also want to keep the generous season we have come to enjoy. That will not only benefit me but it will benefit any who choose to participate in that season. Allowing a superior weapon into that season has the potential to ruin it. Remember how many buffalo were in this country when the Indians hunted them with bow and arrow? Remember what happened when the white man began uncontrolled hunting of them with rifle?
"You complained that the gun hunters would be seeing fewer bucks, this gun season didn't support that view..." I never gave you or anyone else, on this thread or any other place, a timeline on when this might occur. You are the one limiting the potential effect to one or two seasons, not I. I would argue that the effect will take place over a much longer period of time. It will involve firearm hunters seeing fewer bucks for multiple seasons before they realize what is happening. After that, it will take even more time before they unite and start to voice their displeasure. They can force change, it can happen. Just look at EAB if you doubt that.
Actually, people in the archery community are not wondering why their ranks are being depleted. They know it is due to allowing a superior weapon into a primitive weapon season. They know it is that as times change, people are more and more looking for the easy way to become a hunter. They know it is because people are not willing to dedicate time to practice a declining art.
It is only people who are looking for the easy way to kill a deer who call the others self centered and selfish. I guess they feel that casting doubt on others somehow helps to take them out of the spotlight. It doesn't. It only accomplishes that for those not willing to look in the mirror.
Regarding tag structure, season lengths and other miscellaneous items, it is only through discussion and compromise that we arrive at rules that attempt to satisfy all interested parties. Bottom line is that very few are thrilled with it but most all can accept it.
No, we probably won't agree on this and that is OK with me also. I try to look at things objectively and then form my opinion. Based on what has happened in some other states, I fear it could happen here. At any rate, I don't dislike you for not agreeing, I just don't agree.
Im sure ill get roasted for this but what is closer: compound with 80% letoff and a xgun or long bow gapshooter and a compound with 80% letoff?
Woodsdweller,
You are everything that is wrong with bow hunters. In every case I made the distinction between bow hunter and crossbow hunter. I'm not calling a crossbow hunter a bow hunter!!! You people beat this into the ground. I get it! The guys who hunt with crossbows on this forum get it. Get over it and yourself! If you can't get over it, then you might need some more Midol and/or coconut rum you enjoy so much.
Tweed, you didn't get "roasted" for your question but you did get a logical, straight forward answer. There really is no comparison, other in that they both propel a fletched shaft of some size.
I remember getting deleted from the forum not many years ago about the x-bow/gun (rule no bow/gun discussion) and one can witness how corruption slowly seeps in and becomes accepted. Pat really needs to go back to the rule, out of sight out of mind, at least here, Apartheid needs to come back to bowhunting.
How many true bowhunters go on crossgun forums ????? I never have. But they sure love to come here.
"Apartheid needs to come back to bow hunting." LOL! +1
I can't belive you guys are still whining about this??? You lost, Hillary lost, GET OVER IT!! AFD
I can't belive you guys are still whining about this??? You lost, Hillary lost, GET OVER IT!! AFD
