Gun buck kill up, antlerless down
Wisconsin
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Naz 's Link
Fewest gun buck license-buyers in the past 40 years, first sub-600K since '76. Close enough that could possibly top 600K in the remaining gun hunts. Though the drop was predicted already a decade ago, it's still surprising to me considering the back-to-back mild winters and an increased harvest of both bucks and antlerless deer up north. Some speculation that increased baiting bans are playing a role in both license sales drop and increase in kill. However, with reports of steady "feed" sales even in banned counties, not sure that's it.
Naz I see the downfall to continue in hunters. I read an interesting article a few days ago. Explaining the average hunting age in Wisconsin to be 52 years old. Im sure the baiting ban stopped a few of the honest folks. I am in a no bait county and they went through skid after skid fulls of corn. The rifle rifle hunters cleaned house. I see this thread going in any direction. So I'll just say Wisconsin has a lot of pieces to pick up. Hunting is as tough as I've ever seen. Some really great hunters in the north are leaving their county and hunting different parts of the state says enough to me. I hope this wasn't off topic..
I'd have to guess that allowing the use of your archery tag has contributed to some of the loss, many would buy the gun tag to be able to "hang" with the group...now they don't have to.
As far as the harvest numbers go, they can't be trusted any longer. Multiple tags can be printed out before season, you kill a deer, fill out your tag(in pencil, pen or permanent marker), take the deer home, clean it, get the meat in the freezer, throw out your filled out tag and go out the next day with your other printed off tag. If you want your meat processed, just fill out another tag on the last day of season and call in a registration for a "ghost" deer and get a confirmation number. The paper tags are a poachers dream, they are ridiculous and laughable, they should be replaced ASAP with some other form of tag that comes from the DNR that needs to be slit or punched...something that is weather resistant, like the old back tags were. The elk tags I got from Colorado in the past, would be a great way for Wisconsin to go.
Another thing that I think has contributed to the loss of hunters, is that the fun seems to have been taken out of it. It has become too much of a competition, relationships have become severed over the all mighty buck, neighbors don't get along or talk to each other anymore, people get mad when someone, other than themselves, kills the big buck in the area instead of being truly happy for them. People get mad at their neighbors for shooting too many deer, not enough deer, having too many hunters, pressuring the deer too much, baiting, feeding, driving, sitting, talking, parking too close to the property lines, etc. People get ornery over gun season(and bow season), that is the major reason for the decline in numbers. You can blame video games and what not, but the kids see how you react either in the woods, when you get home or when you are venting to your buddies. They see how frustrating it can be, do you really think that they want to feel like that too??
There are many places outside of Wisconsin to hunt quality bucks. Since the wolves, and rulings on native hunting, many I know now go to southern Illinois, southern Michigan, Nebraska, Kentucky, ND, Montana and Kansas for quality private land whitetail hunts. Northern Wisconsin has some nice deer, but they are few and far between and the political huntscape is not endearing. Without winter feeding the first Northwoods nasty winter will be a waste of the resource. Winter feeding in the Northwoods goes all the way back to the DNR and Mort Neff on the Michigan Outdoors show, now it is over in most counties. Add a tincture of wolves, coyotes, bobcats, cougars and bears and it has become a rough row to hoe for the deer herd.
There for awhile I didn't post anything and just read the topics that interested me and I'm leaning towards reading and not contributing anymore because people really have a strange view of deer hunting. Woodsdweller and wibowhtr you two sound like some extremely selfish individuals. I believe that our gun season is a tradition that is extremely important to our great state. I started hunting with my dad when I was 7 years old and while I couldn't carry a gun I still remember and have many great memories with family from many years ago. Some of my best memories are me and my dad sitting in the woods during gun season freezing our butts off.
For you guys to simplify those experiences and that crucial tradition for so many of us into, well its good for us because that means there are more deer for us is extremely unsettling.
For those of you old enough to remember, there is no break in the Wisconsin deer hunting tradition. I have hunted Wisconsin and Michigan since the early 1960's, there are more deer and hunters in the Northwoods now than back then. A lot more technology too. We didn't hunt from trees either, our tags were good for a deer, or a bear. I am with some of the others, I want less hunters, am fine with fewer deer, and I want my Northwoods tradition back. I agree too many hunters in the woods, glad some are quitting or leaving.
Jodie I have to say I disagree with your last statement. Although I don't have the years under my belt as you do. I will say I see less deer and also less hunters in the woods compared to a decade ago. This year I can't tell you how many times I said wow. There is no one up here. Where did everyone go? The interest in the sport of hunting is dwindling. How many of you have kids who are not interested? Some guys have camps exceeding into double digits. but most of the camps I have been in, including my own are shrinking. All the kids that have given it a try. The pose zero interest. Again there are many reasons why and we all know why. That is the way I see it..
Edited: fivers you said it well too. Lots of good points. Although video games and other activities do hold a child up from sitting in the woods not seeing a single deer. These kids are simply not interested anymore. As much as I love hunting. I look back on how I started and what I was fortunate enough to see. I'm not sure if I would feel the same if I just got into the sport.
There are less deer and hunters than a decade ago. Beginning in the 1990's, when I raised four hunters, there were IMO too many deer and hunting became very easy. The 1990's and later set a new expectation of what hunting should be. The high deer population was the result of a few mild winters, unprecedented year round feeding, restrictive antlerless permits, plentiful trappers, fewer wolves and bears than today. After that period technology ran awry with inlines, let offs, cameras, etc. Then came more liberal harvests and threats of losing the buck season from the DNR if we did not hammer the herd. Couple that with more native hunting, crossbows, inlines, baiting and towers on ten acre parcels,....still seemed like deer could not be killed fast enough. Finally we caught our breath in the Northwoods. Back to the reality that winters do kill deer, wolves do eat deer, crossbows are superior to the real bows, inlines are not Hawkens, and food is the limiting factor to the northern deer herd. I am fine if the ten acre parcel, tower bait sitter looks elsewhere for a deer. Fine too if the horn porn guys leave for Iowa. Fine too if the youth choose to hunt elsewhere in their special seasons so they can see lots of deer every day as they are now so entitled. I am fine with everything!!
This was the first year in 30-40 years that there was no camp up by our place in Dunbar. The young/middle aged guys didn't want to give a hand in maintaining trails and the old guys are content to just go up for the quietness and watch the wildlife. More and more of the old timers seem to be content (which is just fine) with just getting up north without needing to hunt and all the associated work.
LESS GUN HUNTERS for you selfish bowhunters is a dream huh?
What about the 100's of millions of $$ that will be lost if the decline of gun hunters continues?
Where will the money come from to support public access land?
With gun hunters dropping off, they will in turn sell their property ... which will most certainly become developed, and NOT stay as natural land.
So less hunters = less money for programs, land, and less land in general for hunters AND the Wildlife that needs to live on it.
You idiots are amazingly selfish, and short sighted.
Woodsdweller,
All your post does is further my view of you as an extremely selfish person. The people who gun hunt, there is nothing wrong with these folks. If all they have is those 9-days, then that's fine by me. Just because someone doesn't take hunting as serious as you doesn't make them half hearted or not serious. I don't share your view at all! Hunting is different for everyone! Because all we need are more dedicated serious hunters who whimper and cry when a neighbor harvests that big buck instead of share in the excitement for that person. What ever happened to the days where people would take photos and share hunting stories? Would you be happy if that hunter fell from his tree? I bet you would, then you might have an opportunity to harvest that deer instead of him.
To quote you, "What a wonderful world it would be"
Don't fear it, private hunting land is much more affordable and plentiful than in the late 1990's. Now is the time to buy if you want hunting land and solitude. Just not many deer, lots of bear, wolves and coyotes.
Maybe up north Jodie, certainly not in farm country where most land is going for $3K-$5K an acre or more in some cases in NE WI (esp. prime ag lands within range of CAFO farms). Hunt leases are often $1K or more per 40 here.
Correct Naz. I was referring to "hunting land" not prime ag land. I should have been more clear.
Again land value has increased everywhere. 5 years ago swamp land would sell at 1-2 grand/acre. Today much higher. Lots of 5 acre parcels selling for 20 k. Land value is at a high imo.
Jodie touched briefly on it but no one else thinks the increase in crossbows has not affected the number of gun licenses sold? Naz, you of all know a good portion of the blame goes to the use of crossbows. I suppose that as a supporter of them, you don't want to admit it. In a letter I submitted to WON about three years ago we noted this would be one of the impacts of a crossbow season. Of course your Editor wanted nothing to do with it and charged us $1,400.00 to buy a page in his rag. Feel free to place some of the blame squarely upon yours and Dean Bortz's shoulders.
A lot of gun hunter's have become the new crossbow bowhunter . Longer warmer season and whack one before the die hard gunhunter's take to the wood's . Same thing we've always enjoyed as real bowhunter's . I don't believe in crossbow's during bow season at all . But can you blame them ?
A 30% increase in buck harvest in northern zone does not surprise me at all based upon what I saw the first three days of the season and heard from two other sources in the northwoods. Snow on the ground on Saturday meant trouble for bucks. Bucks also seemed to really be on their feet a lot this late. Two other groups that hunted the same half of a section tagged out by Sunday night with mostly small yearlings and a couple that were probably two-year olds. It's mind boggling that that many bucks can be shot basically on opening day in northern Wisconsin in some pretty rugged terrain. Disheartening for me because I love to bowhunt the area and I've stuck with it through two horrible winters and then finally we see evidence of a slight rebuild of the herd of recent. And then in one weekend many of the yearling bucks are removed from the landscape. But that is the nature of hunting the public land in the north.
I understand the mentality of most gun hunters and I certainly do not want to tell hunters what they can and cannot harvest for a buck. I had a friend hunting with me this year who had not hunted up north in nearly 20 years and instead has chosen to hunt and do extremely well in Waupaca Co. and Minnesota and Iowa. He could not believe the number of bucks that were taken out of the area we hunted. We were also surprised how hard hunters were working for bucks. We had two separate groups of over 15 hunters making drives on Monday within 2 miles of where we hunt.
The upside is that does are still protected, we saw no big bucks taken or hanging back at the cabins, it is looking like the deer might catch another break this winter, and just maybe a season will be established for wolves.
Getting g back to the deer numbers. Other than the north forest the buck kill is up and antlerledd is down. My simple take a day is there was a late rut that put a dent in the buck population. I think the gun buck kill benefited more on average than did the bow buck kill.
Novemberforever Novemberforever Well-Known Member Its all relative. I grew up in Wisconsin, hunting/fishing/trapping, spearing everything. Moved to socal in 1983. Son born in 93 and raised in socal. Exposed him to ocean fishing, the mountains, and midwest hunting whenever i could. He chose to be a Gopher, knocked that out in 3 years. Could have gone to law school but chose to be a wildlife biologist. Has 3 py bucks, over 100 kills, starts his ms program in 8 weeks starting research on woodpeckers. He starts 8 days of ml hunting in 12 hours(how many here will ml hunt?) he then will create balance in the 4 day doe hunt. How many here will make the effort in high dpsm areas to participate in the antlerless hunts? Tictock!!! He killed a monstor cal mulie@10,000 feet after day 10 backpacking.care to suck it up and try 1 day@10,000 feet with a 50 lb pack? He killed his 3rd py buck in sconnie 2 days after my 10th py buck(157).This is a socal raised kid,15 miles from disneyland and 2,000 miles from my treestands. Its all about involvement , focus and proper exposure. He can do just fine against anyone with a bow, any firearm, flyrod, ect. Bird, tree, plant, id? No problema. So line up all the bs excuses for utes not hunting then look in the mirror Dad, uncle, cousin, ect. and own it. Nov 29, 2016 at 7:39 PM EditDeleteReportReply
Captain, I'm not a crossbow owner, never even shot one, and warned against their use as the possible end of mom and pop bow shops and the bowhunter education some of them support. Where did you get I'm a supporter of them? I have said in the past I don't care what my neighbor uses to shoot "his" deer on "his" property, a broadhead from a bow or crossbow, they're dead either way. If that's supporting them, so be it. Agree that more folks took up crossbows and perhaps some of them dropped gun deer.
I introduced both my boys into hunting, both deer and turkey, real bow, and gun. Took exactly the same approach with both. One is hooked. The other couldn't care less. I don't blame myself or anyone else for that. Not everyone is a natural born killer.
I do think there are far less gun hunters than when I was a teenager. Myself included. I still buy my gun liscense but it doesn't hold any allure at all for me to shoot one with a gun. I bought it so that I can use it to tag a bow buck if I get one during gun season. That way I still have my archery tag for late season. And being a bowhunter as well as busy father and small business owner I choose to give up gun hunting and instead use my vacation for bow hunting.
As far as buck kill being up, that doesn't surprise me with limited antler less tags a lot of folks who would normally shoot a doe and hold out for a nicer buck now shoot the first antlered animal they see just so they don't go home empty handed. I for one WISH that all the guys trespassing this year on the in laws land would quit gun hunting. It seems like I'm passing young bucks just so they can kill them.
"Well known????? First Ive seen of you and its just what we don't need, another braggart that is very full of himself. "
Welcome back "woodsdweller" LOL. It was only a matter a time. When you made sure your "friend" Tweed posted the link to your product's site, that was the tipping point in what was becoming very obvious to most. You never did like Novemberforever prior to all your bootings? Looking forward to seeing all your lies now.
Welcome back November. Haven't see you post here in awhile but I see you post on the new habitat site that replaced the QDMA forums.
Naz, I did not say you were a crossbow owner. What I am saying is that had you, as a writer, attempted to present arguments from all sides to the hunting public regards crossbows, there may have been a little more support to oppose them. Maybe I am making you guilty by association with WON but I never saw anything written by you in that publication or any other that attempted to give hunters all perspectives. If you did, my apology in advance.
Might be the most incoherent thread in a long line of emotional rant/pissing match type threads. Just too hard to stay on topic it seems. Hope the north buck hunt signals a deer comeback instead of a shoot off.
Many good posts, and some that are not so good. It was the toughest gun season in many years. What does that mean for me? I will continue to hunt, and try and figure the deer out. All I know is that I have control over what property I can hunt and no control over the neighbors 400 plus acres of standing corn, or the neighbor who doesn't feel like hunting. We introduced 11 new hunters to the sport this fall and will continue to do so in the future.
Why dwell on the negatives, and the things you can't change. Quit being "Sour Pusses" and look at the positives, Hunting today is still one heck of a lot better than it was in the 1970's....
Keep it positive!
I killed a lot more deer in the 70's and 80's than I have the last 10 years. Seen more deer per sit also.
So I don't get it when they say hunting is better now? Everyone sits on their 40 afraid to move so they don't push a deer to the neighbor. Used to be neighbors hunted together and pushed deer
Deer seasons and their structure are more screwed up than ever if you ask me.
Crusader, there were far more antlerless tags up north this year than last year, with fewer buck-only units. So the increase (especially considering the drop in hunter numbers) is simply due to more deer. I have several friends who hunt up north and all commented on more sightings, sign and tracks than recent years.
Woodsdweller ..... no need to be sorry, nothing you post carries any weight with a rational thinking person anyway. So I need not worry about it.
Naz our group can surely confirm that. We have 8 guys hunting 8-9 days and in 2014 we saw 14 deer, last year a little more and this year we saw 60. We still hunt and walk more than stand hunt and cover lots of ground. We had snow all week and tracked many bucks including this monster in the pic. and yes that is a 30-06 shell. We really need to have a little patience after those 2 bad winters. Now the wolves on the other hand...
"Woodsdweller ..... no need to be sorry, nothing you post carries any weight with a rational thinking person anyway. So I need not worry about it. "
Very true dampland. It was just a matter of time before he surfaced here again under his, what 300th moniker. He does it the same way after every booting too. He comes back slowly, an innocent post here, and there and then bam, back to the full monty. Exact same takes on things from before the booting. He's read like a book. Now he's getting others like Tweed to post links to his products knowing that is what got him and his son (Bow_Tech) booted from here the last time. Time to find that alert button again. It was so nice and peaceful here.
This is a bow hunting website. You guys who love the gun season and the traditions can have it. But it is not the same as it was back 30 years ago when I started. Laws have changed. There are now quotas made by the state like landowners who pose restrictions on what a hunter can shoot. It is not fun anymore because everyone, and I mean everyone, is so critical of the next guy. To me gun season is more of a game then a hunt. There are a lot of people who spend more time patrolling and protecting "their" deer then actually hunting. If this what gun season has become then a lot needs to be changed including hunter attitudes. Those same attitudes have created an environment in the wood which has chased others away from the sport which is okay. I am guilty as hard as it is to say. LOL!
I have said this for many years now, Big bucks and hunting have now become nothing but trouble.