My bil shot this buck yesterday with his muzzie. His face is fairly grey but rack is awfull spindly. He says 4 1/2. I say 2 1/2. What do you guys think? This is the only pic I have. Shot just outside of black river falls. He is getting it aged so I will eventually have a correct answer. We have a case of beer bet on who is right.
+1 RJN, I agree but this is only the second deer he's ever killed so I can't blame him. That's one of those public land deer that you root to make it through the gun season.
I would say most likely a 2.5 and impressive to be a ten pointer. However, I did shoot a 3.5 with a very similar rack up north once, but lean towards 2.5. Any trail cam pics to see his body? Nice P.L. buck.
This is the oldest buck I ever shot. Based on tooth wear, he was aged at 9 1/2 years old. He weighed 174#, did not have an ounce of fat on him and grosses 162"
This buck is also the darkest colored, (almost red) buck I have ever shot or probably seen. He lacks the white circles around his eyes and has very little grey or light colored hair. I believe hair color on deer varies significantly and has little or nothing to do with age... Just my opinion though...
Trail cams on the land Neil was hunting would be stolen within days. He's hunted a little bit in the area but usually goes out by the farmland at my mil's house. He was so pissed off about the trespassers this year he figured "screw it I'm staying closer to home" He walked in in the dark until he was tired of walking, sat on a stump and this guy showed up. Sometimes lucky is better than good! His family eats venison and fish they catch almost exclusively. He is very proud to have brought home the bacon this time instead of having someone else giving him a deer.
As far as grey on the face. I've always associated grey hair with older age but I'm sure you guys are right and it really is in no way an indication of age.
Yes, aging deer by tooth wear is an estimate at best especially as they get older. Variables such as diet and soil abrasiveness are factors that affect tooth wear. However, if I remember correctly, identifying a yearling is a sure thing based on the fact that at 2 1/2 years an additional tooth drops down. Beyond 2 1/2 it can get pretty fuzzy. That being said, there's a definite difference between the teeth of a 2 1/2 year old and the teeth of a deer over 5 years old.
Yes Nocturnal8 he is a pre-wolf era public land buck and there wasn't much left of his teeth. I save the lower jaws of most of my deer and maybe I should dig them out and post photos...
I shot a limping buck during gun season. From 75 yards away in the thick brush I was sure he was a 1.5 year old, a deer I wouldn't have shot had it not been for the heavy limp. However when I got up to him, what really stood out was his long body and long grey head. He also had a very broad/thick nose. He was heavily scarred from fighting. His rack however was a typical WI 1.5 old basket rack 5 point (1 brow broke off). I am 90% sure this deer is a 1.5 year old. Just like people. Deer can be different shapes, sizes, and colors young or old.
Since we're talking about grey face deer. I happen to agree with mike on this too. This deer I guess at 3 and this was the greyest face I've ever seen on a deer. I don't know if it's genetic or what.. But mikes 9 year old deer with a brown face proves that well also.
Mike the reality is if bucks didn't have horns there would be very little interest in hunting. Admit it or not everyone young or old thinks abut the big ol buck while in the stand. Nobody can force someone to pass small bucks but they also can't pay me enough to shoot a little one.
Nocturnal, that is one of the coolest faces I've ever seen on a buck.
Mike F. I don't see where anyone was talking about the antlers of my bil's buck. Some referenced the size of the bases as an indicator of age. I for one am very happy for/proud of him. We just disagree on the age and I figured I'd throw it on here for discussion. So far this has been one of the more civil threads we've had lately and it's taken some interesting turns. Cheeses bucks are awsome and noc's is very handsome and I probably would have shot it.
"Mike F. I don't see where anyone was talking about the antlers of my bil's buck. Some referenced the size of the bases as an indicator of age. I for one am very happy for/proud of him. We just disagree on the age and I figured I'd throw it on here for discussion. So far this has been one of the more civil threads we've had lately and it's taken some interesting turns."
This^^ I'll tell you a reason why this thread has remained positive. Cause everyone who has commented thus far are the good guys.
" Cheeses bucks are awesome"
I admire a lot of guys on this site. But cheesehead gets it done and shares some great details when he actually decides to comment. This is why I come here, for threads like this. It carried well. Great thread Shane...
Don't get me wrong. The buck is a beautiful animal. I took this thread the wrong way, and I apologize if I upset anyone with my statements. As far as shooting a buck, it's not something I spend a lot of time chasing, I think I've harvested more than my fair share of them over the years.
Maybe I am weird! I've been called worse.
As far as the age. Without knowing the weight and not seeing the whole deer, I would say 2 1/2 or 3 1/2 at the most.
We all know you mike F. I'd say you misread something. But as long as you apologized I can forgive you. I can't speak for the rest.. Haha! All jokes aside. It's not a big deal.
That's why I said "based on tooth wear" take it for what it's worth. However I think "worthless" is a little strong and I guarantee he was way older than 3 1/2.
It's a known fact that deer's teeth wear down as they age. Pinning it down to an exact year based on tooth wear is probably not very realistic but when you and your friends have killed dozens of deer from the same area and compared tooth wear, antler growth, etc. you get a "feel" for tooth wear, antler growth and the age of the deer in the area.
I find this sharing of opinion valuable and insightful. I come to this sight to learn from others far more skilled that myself. Thank you for all those that post about your experiences. For all the others that just don't see it that way it is your loss.
Point is it could be 7.5 or 11.5 if you truly want to know pay the 25 bucks and find out. ArcherJ says he would rather drink beer with the 25 buck and who cares how old it is. I still drink the beer and pay the 25 bucks. One thing is for certain in Northern WI deer are much older than most think. The standard its "3.5" is normally not the case.
The deer above was 6.5 I had many pictures of him over the years with the identical rack. A poacher named Randy shot him and I asked for the bottom front teeth. The deers teeth had hardly any wear in relation to molars. I would have said he was a 3.5 buck without knowing anything about him. As far as Randy goes he got it real bad about 2 years later. After a rapid succession of 9 shots I texted ArcherJ and said give me permission to go on your land Randy is being naughty AGAIN. Sure enough he is all over AJ's land blood everywhere. I back out and AJ gets in there at first light the next day with a video cam. Finds an untagged spike and videos it. Then he hears Randy coming and hides and video's him not tagging the deer and hooking it to a four wheeler. He goes about 200 yards stops gets off to cut some brush about 50 yards away so AJ goes up to the four wheeler videos the untaged buck moves Randy's jacket on the four wheeler to expose his back tag and walks away...........Randy broke down when the warden approached him at the house...To this day he has no idea he was videoed or how the warden even knew.
I get it FIP. I can afford the $25 and the beer and I probably should send the teeth for some of my deer in just to know for sure. The buddy who ages most of my deer based on tooth wear is much more experienced at it than I am and he also said that it's not much more than a guess when they get that old.
I have the lower jaws for a lot of my deer in a box. If I remember correctly, a girlfriend's dog got ahold of the jaw from that buck, chewed on it a little and I think he might have ate the front teeth. I'll have to dig it out and look...
Glad you guys busted old Randy, sounds like a real loser!
It is really tough to tell a whole lot by that photo, however based loosely on my knowledge of deer in that particular area I am going to take a stab at it and say 3.5 y/o??? Split the case of beer. :)
Not sure where deer aging fits with horn porn?? I like to know the age of any deer, whether it is a buck or doe, as it helps me figure out the dynamics of the woods and get a further understanding of what is going on out there in terms of mortality rates, growth rates, genetics, and fawn drops/raising.
I apologize for hijacking your thread and taking it off in another direction but since the topic of tooth wear came up I thought I would follow up and post these photos. Somebody might find them interesting.
I dug out my box of jaw bones and this photo shows the jaws from the four bucks in my photo above arranged in the same order with the jaw of a typical 2 1/2 year old in the back ground for comparison.
I'll do a side by side comparison from left to right.
This is the jaw of the 11 pointer that is the buck on the left in my photo above, compared to the 2 1/2 year old.
The jaws are overlapped so as you're looking at them from front to back your seeing the 11 pt. in the front, then the 2 1/2 then the 11 pt. and then the 2 1/2 in the rear.
This is a comparison of the 9 pointer that is second from the right to a 2 1/2 year old jaw. Again the jaws are overlapped with the 9 pointer in the front and then the 2 1/2, then the 9 then the 2 1/2 in the rear.
This one is the 12 pointer that is on the right in the photo compared to the 2 1/2 year old. Again the jaws are overlapped with the 12 pt. in the front then the 2 1/2 then the 12 then the 2 1/2.
You can really see the difference in tooth height if you compare the two rows of teeth that are in the back of the photo.
The bottom photo is a side by side comparison with the 12 on the right and the 2 1/2 on the left.
Those are some great photos for comparisons, CH Mike. Tough to always see just what you've got until you start contrasting it directly with other animals.
What is equally impressive is the fact that you were able to locate them so quickly. I've got a stash of them in a tote somewhere, but it'll be a bit before I find it!
You have everything you need to find out the exact age of those deer. Although I would call Henry first and ask him what to send since those front teeth and jaw bones are so dry and brittle at this point. I think he would ask you to send the four front teeth left in the jaw meaning you would have to cut the jaw just below the front teeth. He would then soak them in a solution that turns them into a rubber like consistency and take what he needs.
At least send in the 12 pointer. I do not think he is 9.5 from looking at the pictures of the teeth you have above. Friendly wager? 25 bucks? That will get your money back from the test:^) I am thinking 7.5
The landowner where I hunt estimated 6+ years on this deer. My buddy said 2.5 due to poor mass. I'm going to have to ask my taxidermist for his opinion. The deer weighed 255 lbs dressed.
If it is a true 255 lb dressed deer I would highly doubt it to be 2.5 y/o as well. -That deer would have weighed somewhere between 290 and 310 on the hoof. The antler mass is a very general indicator, but is hardly anything close to scientific or a true calibrator of age. Likewise, the same may be said to some degree as to weight and hair color as pointed out earlier. Largely, genetic and region based qualities that show up more prevalent in some herds opposed to others, however may be general indicators.
I also doubt that he would be 255 lbs at 2.5 years old. I shot one that weighed 255 lbs dressed and we "estimated" him at 4.5 years old based on tooth wear. I shot another one that weighed 210 lbs. only about 1/2 mile from where I shot the 255 pounder and we "estimated" the 210 pounder at 2.5 years old based on tooth wear but I suppose he could have been 3.5. There was obviously some big bodied genes in the area.
FIP, thanks for the link, you're probably right that my 12 pointer is "only" about 7.5 years old. It's been several years and I think the guy that estimated his age gave me a range like 7.5 - 9.5 and I probably just remembered the 9.5. Either way, he's pretty old comparatively speaking.
You omro are a brave man opening that stomach, that smell is one I can't get over. I'd rather not know what the deer was eating. I was gagging when I had to field dress Collins buck this year.
As far as my bil's buck goes..,. He is having a shoulder mount done and it's going to cost more than he thought. We've agreed to call the deer 3 1/2 and both buy a case of beer.
This buck was aged at 10 1/2. Dressed out at 225lbs. Was a gun buck but had a tall heavy rack, not very wide. The neighbor sent me a pic of him on his corn pile I will post below.
If you pull out the jawbone you should be able to tell if that deer is 2.5, info is pretty available online and I think you can be sure at that age. AS they get older it gets a lot more subjective.
Aging deer on the hoof is an art. Anyone who gives you a definite age based on anything (trail cam pics, trophy pics, even jawbone pics) does not know what they are talking about. Even sending a tooth off to a lab has been proven not to be 100% accurate. It is all an educated guess and there have been studies done proving this.
No FIP, you win... He's probably only 6.5 years old and I'm not sure why I even shot him now...
Like I said, the ages I stated were my memory of age estimates based on what a buddy thought. My main point was that some of my bucks are pretty old and I don't think gray coloration has much to do with age. I'm not confident enough about it and don't care enough about it to bet on it, but if times are tough for you I can probably float you the $25 until you get back on your feet... ;^)
I guess maybe I should send the teeth in and get him aged so I'll know if I should continue to feel bad about shooting him... ;^P
"I guess maybe I should send the teeth in and get him aged so I'll know if I should continue to feel bad about shooting him... ;^P"
Amen....I am a factual person never much cared for "estimates" when the truth can be found out. Maybe you will find out you have a wall of 2.5 years olds...shame...shame. I killed a 12.5 year old this year based off of tooth wear here is WI.
If you send those teeth in now it will make for good conversation in 3 months when things are slow:^)
This buck has been a ghost and basically unhuntable. He's been seen once in his life in the light when he was 3 1/2. I'm hoping these cold Temps and snow will make him drop his guard and show himself in the late season. Any more guesses on age of the pics?
The bottom 2 photos sure look like different bucks to me.
The buck in the bottom pic and the big 8 in the pic second from the top look like they could be the same buck but the buck second from the bottom has totally different characteristics and I think he's a different buck.
One of the things I noticed in bucks as they age and their antlers change, often their brow tines have the same general characteristics (relative size, curvature, etc.) year to year. Not that it's scientific at all but none of your bucks have similar brow tines...
I know 100% this is the same buck. He actually has always had 'goal posts' as brows and he has a hole in his right ear. Every yr he shows up on cam multiple times but is never seen. He maintained a 8pt frame until the last few yrs when he threw out that flyer. He is the oldest in the top pic, any guesses?
RJN- I see the notched ear and saw it on three of the four photos above as well. (Certainly a good indicator, but not all that uncommon in the woods.) The brow tines and angles of antlers just don't match up from what I see, but you know this deer way better than any of us, no doubt! Have you found any of his sheds over the years?
I have so many pics of this buck I can pick him out of a herd of deer even when he sheds his horns. That 2 inch notch/hole almost looks like he dodged a bullet.
The brow tines in the bottom photo seem to lean more to his right than in the other photos. If that's the same buck, his antlers sure changed a lot during his lifetime.
He's obviously old but I'd have to see his teeth before I could make a wild incorrect guess ;^)
In the top pic he is 8 1/2 this yr. Bottom pic he is 3 1/2. 3rd pic he is 7 1/2, and 2nd pic he is 6 1/2. He maintained that high 8pt rack until 6 1/2 and then at 7 he put on a g4 and flyer off left beam. This yr he's Goin downhill and has 4 pts on rt and a fork on left.
You know the deer so I'll take your word for It. Looks old enough and big enough for me to shoot. I hope you get him. There might be more pride in getting him now than if he were younger and bigger. An old monarch is definitely a trophy regardless of antler size.
He's definitely a warrior and a bully that I believe the bigger racked bucks stay away from him. I have pics of him with his rack in the ass of other bucks when he is feeding. I'm thinking we will find him shed hunting in the next yr or so. I've never known a buck to live past 4-5 yrs old on our land.
