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http://www.crossbowexpert.com/productdetails.asp?productid=1645574 How long will these stay out of Montana? Not good for bowhunting IMO.
I can't wait for the day that crossbows are permitted in Montana. Crossbows have been used for hunting forever! I have hunted with a conventional bow for years. Over fifty to be exact. I started with a recurve and transitioned to a compound as soon as they were available. There was nothing at the time that could have been better! NEW aluminum arrows, improved broadheads, sights, attached quivers, Kevlar strings, etc.,. People like Fred Bear were joining the revolution in the design and development of more speed and accuracy of the new bows. Even the Olympics were excepting the new improved equipment for competition. Today we have organizations that are for and against this so called new equipment. This includes crossbows. I believe it is time for all hunters (archery, firearms, trappers, crossbow, and spear hunters etc.) need to come together and support each other. We need to bring new people ie., men, women and children into our sport before we lose it all. If we continue to bicker over who gets what, before long it will all be gone!
This year after making every effort to get crossbows approved for disabled hunters in the state of Montana, I made an effort to go on my first archery hunt in 12 years using the approved equipment approved by MTFWP. After two days hunting with my son, I decided along with my son that this equipment in the woods was too dangerous to continue. It is literally unsafe! Once the bow drawn the potential for limb breakage, string snapping, safety dislodging, holding rod to dislodge causing the arrow to release etc. is the most frightening experience I have ever had. I packed up my equipment and decided to hang it up forever! About ten years ago I purchased a crossbow hoping that Montana would eventually except someone like me to hunt with a crossbow during the archery season. Unfortunately it may never happen. My crossbow is of the recurve design with a simple trigger which I could draw with a crank. It is extremely safe and would be effective on game to about thirty yards. It is also very lightweight.
Someday when everyone decides that we cannot lose even one person as a hunter, trapper, archer, etc. I may get to hunt with it during good weather, during the archery season.
Why we should be against the crossbow during archery seasons. Most of the people I talk to about this idea are against it for several different reasons, but I think most miss the point. Some of the comments I hear is that the modern compound bow is as accurate as the modern crossbow, so what’s the difference. I believe this to be true in some cases, but the problem as I see it, we are comparing a bow shooter who has a lot of experience and his accuracy has come at the expense of hours and hours and months of shooting a bow to a person who picks up a crossbow for the first time and in a week can hold his own against a good compound shooter. Now take a guy who has never shot a hand held bow and it will take him months and maybe a year or of good coaching to reach the same level of accuracy as a week old crossbow shooter. If crossbows were to become legal archery equipment, a few things will happen, none of them good. There will of course be several bowhunters who will switch over to the crossbow, these guys will contribute to the problem but not near as much as the other convert, This is the Rifle hunter who didn’t want to or didn’t have the time to dedicated practicing with a hand held bow and wasn’t a participant in the Archery season. Now we have a whole new pool of hunters who will be entering the bow seasons and competing with the previous bow hunter for special archery limited draw elk tags. More competition for the limited tags is not good but is not the crux of the problem. The crossbow will increase the harvest success rates to a point something will have to be done, remember for every action there is a reaction. We will have to reduce the number of hunters to compensate for the extra elk being harvested. Both Archery hunters and Rifle hunters will lose, Not only will the archers lose archery permits but with reduced game populations the coveted Rifle tags will be reduced to. The Problem just cascades. We hear rumblings now of Montana expanding archery permits to area’s that are now over the counter. Add the crossbow into that mix and now were are reducing hunter opportunity even more.
I agree with Steve. I also understand the disabled hunters plight and unfortunately, like every other aspect of life, there are plenty of d-bags around to work the system and get a permit to use an xbow because his shoulder hurts.
It's best to keep what we have and improve upon the legal equipment for the disabled, surely it can be made safer. What do we need to do to improve the equipment?
The argument for xbows by citing hunter unity is weak at best. I support all hunters and methods while opposing xbows in the archery season. A xbow would be fun and interesting to use during the general season, maybe one day I will have one.
I agree with the points of the two posts above. The significant changes described will likely constitute the first step of a far reaching dynamic resulting in "choose your weapon" and "choose your brief season" as the long-season hunting opportunities in Montana will become a campfire story by older hunters of how great it was to be able to hunt in Montana for several months. It will evolve into a few weeks or a week of hunting each year.
Debates on technology will never end. The door was opened with the invention of the compound bow and all of the related technology (sights, release aids, etc.). They are a far cry from a primitive weapon. In my mind, the modern compound bow is much closer to a crossbow than it is a longbow or a recurve. If you are strong enough to get it to break over, you can hold it at full draw for a very, very long time. If you can't, you're either old and feeble (like me), you're truly disabled, or you're a pansy and probably should take up bridge or knitting. :)
I see this issue having more to do with hunting elk than deer an other game. It really doesn't matter with deer as Montana law allows only one buck per year regardless of the weapon you use or the season you hunt. There would be pretty much zero impact on the deer population if crossbows were allowed. Elk are a different story as like Steve said, I suspect a lot of rifle hunters would take up hunting with a crossbow. We can only speculate as we really don't know what the increase in numbers might be...
If hunters become more effective at harvesting game it likely will mean fewer tags will be made available, that simple IMO. I agree with Tatonka's post.
Whats the effective range of a crossbow?
Tatonka- MT allows only one Bull elk per person per year too....same as deer. Regardless of weapon or season. Is your point that most everyone that wants to kill a deer, kills one regardless of weapon?
I'm against them during archery by the way!
My point is that the elk hunting might be impacted more if crossbows were legal if more rifle hunters who have not hunted with a bow decided to buy a crossbow as most districts in Eastern Montana are permit only...... it would mean more people applying for archery permits in the Breaks, in the Bear Paws, etc. I know of no one around here who travels to districts in Montana where a permit is not required to hunt elk during archery season. If local hunters do not draw a tag for the Breaks or the Bear Paws, they do not hunt elk. If crossbows were legal, I suspect more people who don't currently bowhunt would give it a try, but who knows... I have no idea if the success rate with a crossbow would be significantly higher with a crossbow than a compound. I suspect it might be slightly higher, but how much higher is anyone's guess. A hunter still has to get close.
Everyone talks about losing seasons, having seasons shortened, etc. if crossbows are made legal, but if it didn't happen with the advances in compound bows (bows with 80% let off, bows that shoot an arrow at more than double the speed of a traditional bow, etc.), I question whether making crossbows legal would really result in shorter seasons, but it probably would have an impact on drawing success rates if a significant number of rifle hunters picked up a crossbow and started applying for the special permits.
Hunters seem to get far more excited about elk hunting than deer hunting. There are a couple of hunters around here who bowhunt deer, but very few. I can go out all fall long and not see another bowhunter. I think they're all chasing elk in the breaks. :).
Drawing success rates are a calculation based on the actual expected kill rate, ie, how many of those with tags will actually harvest an animal? If hunters who draw a tag become more successful with advanced weaponry, then there will be a compensatory reduction in permits issued, all things being equal.
We also don't know how many hunters who currently hunt with a compound would switch to a crossbow. Without some good surveys (done by people who know how to do surveys), there's really no way to know what impact crossbows would have on archery seasons.
I personally have no interest in hunting with a crossbow. They look like they'd be a pain to pack around, but I would have no problem with someone who is truly disabled being given a permit to use one. Some states allow the use of a crossbow for elderly hunters (after a certain age). I would have no problem if someone 75 or 80 years old needed to use a crossbow in order to get out and enjoy archery season. When we're young we think we'll never be unable to draw a bow back... Like Gomer Pyle used to say, "Surprise, Surprise, Surprise"... Don't count on it.
I see the points from both sides, but there has to be a way that disabled person can archery hunt during the normal archery season. The equipment they have designed to do so is beyond unsafe. I challenge anyone opposing that statement to go out and try it themselves. Just think if something happens and you can't draw your long bow anymore and you have to hang it up. IT SUCKS.
the permit to modify archery equipment for the handicapped hunter is readily available and legal, it is much more user friendly than a crossbow, it can be modified to your specific handicap, it can go so far as to able a full quadriplegic the ability to shoot a bow.
It sounds to me that this is only about the ability for a archery hunter to get HIS or HER TAG. The permit to modify equipment is as limited as any others and is unsafe. I have tried it and just to let you know, I was selected for one of those coveted bull tags in the breaks this year and because of the equipment safety, I hung up the bow after just a few hours never to hunt the rest of the season. There fore someone else was denied THEIR chance at the bull of a lifetime! Sounds selfish doesn't it! But that is exactly what the rest of you sound like that are whining about YOUR CHANCE at getting a tag. I believe that it is all about being selfish when another individual is denied an opportunity because a group that controls the politicians are the problem!
"The permit to modify equipment is as limited as any others and is unsafe." Yes, it is limited to disabled archers. It is only unsafe if not properly modified and employed.
"I hung up the bow after just a few hours never to hunt the rest of the season." Personal decision owned only by the hunter; no one else is to be blamed.
" I believe that it is all about being selfish when another individual is denied an opportunity because a group that controls the politicians are the problem!" I believe that one should work with their physician to develop the proper prescription to avoid skewed, irrational statements expressed on public hunting forums.
I'm sorry if my statements offended you straight arrow. All the equipment was installed per the manufacturer. The employment is based on disability. Therefore the equipment becomes unsafe because of an individuals disability. That is the problem! MFWP is attempting to standardize disabilities. That is as impossible as every archer shooting the same bow with the same draw length and the same poundage. As far as the irrational statements, I have been to the FWP Commission meetings and talked to the Legislatures. It is a joke! If MTBHA wants it, it will happen. If not forget it! The statements are not skewed, nor irrational and I assure you are not derived by a prescription.
No disrespect intended, but MBA has promoted and brought to us the great bowhunting opportunities we value in Montana. 'Not sure if you realize it, but MBA has and will assist disabled bowhunters to use MFWP regulatory provision to employ modified archery equipment to safely and successfully tailor the specific individual disability. I encourage you to use MBA for assistance, rather than merely criticize a well intentioned provision and an organization that has worked hard on your behalf.
Thanks for the advice but been there done that. I was told by a Physical Therapist that belonged to the MBA that I was not a candidate for the PMI Equipment available. That is why I am so adamant about fighting for the disabled and hunting the archery season with a crossbow. I am sorry but I don't think they have worked on my behalf. It is as important to me as lighted nocks, compound bows, handmade archery equipment or any other interest that a reasonable archer would ask. Today I was reading about the elk shoulder seasons going on throughout the state because hunters are not harvesting enough elk. I can't understand why it is an issue with the use of crossbows for disabled people when the state is admitting that their regular season is not taking enough animals. By not allowing alternative archery methods the state is going to be forced to change hunting seasons to allow more firearms hunting during the coveted archery season to control these numbers. Based on state numbers there are approximately 45,000 archery hunters in the State of Montana. The last time I was at the State Wildlife Commission meeting on crossbow hunting for the disabled, the MBA representative said there were approximately 700 members in the MBA. Based on those numbers don't you think they should reconsider they're agenda? Look at all the potential new members that could be added.
Big Muley, you express valid points. I am sorry nothing short of a crossbow rifle works for you. If any consolation, you may use it during the Shoulder Seasons. It is also unfortunate that a single crossbow issue for which you have a very personal narrow perspective defines the MBA for you and seemingly ignores all other good the organization has done. Another unfortunate dynamic is expressed by the 700 to 45,000 ratio in that it reflects the broad apathetic attitude by so many and the willingness to allow merely a few to carry the water benefiting the entire tribe.
Lighted nocks are a big nothing burger to me and not a big issue but I whole-heartedly support the MBA for moving slowly on allowing them or any other changes for that matter. I would rather hunt with a spear and have the long seasons than continue to incrementally allow "bow" hunting equipment that drastically increases harvest ratios and conversely shortens archery seasons to compensate for more animals killed.......and more yahoos in the field. ( This is from a guy who shoots self bows, long bows, recurves and modern compound bows.) To me Bow Hunting is not a sport that we're guaranteed to participate in due to age or health reasons. I've known whitetail bow hunting great Gene Wensel since I was a teenager and he admits that his elk hunting days are over. With his age and physical limitations, he can't do it. He's honest with himself and hunts what and where he can.......we're talking ladder stands and ground blinds with shorter hikes into the stand for whitetails, turkey, hogs etc.... I know what serious bow hunters are made of and I'd like to think if a guy or gal who loved it and asked for help as a disabled hunter, we would carry them in the woods and help in any way we could. I feel empathy for exceptions and subjective medical conditions that aren't accommodated by our current laws but I don't want the MBA or current seasons and rules that are intended to protect our Montana heritage compromised by narrow exceptions either.
That is my point! This is from a guy that has shot self bows, long bows, recurve bows and modern compound bows as a hunter and instructor. When does the MBA have the right to delegate what others needs are and by all means if you want to hunt with a spear, have at it! I also see your need to illegitimize others needs by calling them "Yahoos in the field". I don't think Montana's heritage is effected at all by small exceptions. The other issue is disabled individuals do not want to be controlled by others when others don't want to be controlled either. I am not looking for empathy either! I just want the same opportunity to hunt with archery equipment that was developed thousands of years ago by archers like self bows longbows etc. to hunt during a season that has milder weather conditions just like all other archers. Furthermore, I too know what serious bow hunters are made of and the ones that I know wants every individual they know to be part of the greatest experience of their lives!
This is the way I look at it! What if you needed your snow shoveled but at the age of thirty you were in a severe disabling accident in Iraq while fighting for our country. You went through Thoracic spine surgery and two shoulder replacements. You had made every effort to shovel your snow and it was an impossible task. Out of sheer desperation and not wanting to ask your neighbor for help, you go to the local Farmer's Union to get a self propelled, electric start snow blower. You tell the salesperson what you want and ask if it could be delivered only to find out that due to some political decision, no electronic starting device is allowed on snow blowers and if you cannot start one by pulling the rope you could apply for a permit to allow someone to start your snow blower. You write a letter to the editor complaining about the decision. In a response some "Yahoo" says that I should just comply by paying someone to shovel my snow or call the local Boy Scouts for assistance. The other option is to just pickup from my hometown and move to a warmer climate! This is the same type of scenario that we are talking about. I also want you to know that if you or your child or wife or your parent ever become disabled, you do not turn your back on them and tell them to just admit when your done! I hope you push them to the fullest extent possible because people don't quit because they want to, they do it because they are told to!
As a senior with three score and a dozen years under my belt, it is realistic to accept the limitations soon to be faced regarding elk hunting, hiking to high remote places, drawing my longbow, and a myriad of other physical activities. Does that mean I support special provisions to be implemented to compensate for my shortcomings .... heck, NO!
Opening up the Bob to motorized travel to accomodate me, allowing seniors to hunt the Slippery Ann cottonwood river bottom, introducing the crossbow rifle as an approved weapon during the special archery season cherished by those already "45,000 archery hunters", are examples of what changes would absolutely degrade the experiences and the essence of enjoyment for so many for so long. The only constant in my life is change ... and it is how I accept and adapt to that change that defines my character. If adaptation for me adversely impacts the experience for others, then I respectfully assert that it is selfish and unwarranted. You have been dealt a poor hand; I get it. I encourage you to find the weapons restricted areas where you are allowed to use your crossbow during the archery season and to hunt with the crossbow during the shoulder seasons. You do have options already in place which do not degrade hunting for others.
Allowing crossbows to be used during the archery season would be terrible for Montana!!! I have been fortunate to harvest some great public land bulls with my bow over the years and if I ever have to resort to a crossbow to archery hunt that will be the day when I hang em up. I am a younger guy (-mid 30's) who is just old school in the fact that I believe all the new technology used in today's hunting has really made a negative impact on what truly fair chase hunting is about. My opinion for what it is worth....
Here in Penna. At the annual Game Commission meeting 2 years ago. The NRA, yes the National Rifle Ass. told them that having the crossbow in our archery season would be the best thing for archery hunting. Now we have them. Thank you much NRA.
In states where legal, crossbows cause a rapid decline in bowhunting culture and true bowhunting clubs and organizations. Unfortunately, they get accepted because of physical limitations of a few hunters, then suddenly become legal during all bowhunting/archery seasons. Not good for Montana, IMO.
Not good for bowhunting. Anybody who writes: "We need to bring new people ie., men, women and children into our sport before we lose it all. If we continue to bicker over who gets what, before long it will all be gone!"- must not get out much. There's more people every year wandering the woods. The hunting industry in Montana is growing every year. And thanks to Onyx maps, those once coveted honey holes that were secrets, aren't secrets anymore. Any average Joe with a smart phone can pin point small tracts of good hunting land in a few minutes. Next thing you know, theres a ton of dudes walking around your spot trying to film a tv show holding a crossbow...and its time to find a new one- except good hunting spots will eventually be special draw only (limited hunters). This technology- including the shows on TV bring thousands to Montana to hunt. Yeah it might be good if you're an outfitter, but for the other 99%, it means more pressure, and less opportunities at mature game. I'm OK with people who are disabled using them. Otherwise, treat 'em like a rifle.
Elky, so when you say "Old School", you're saying you shoot a longbow or recurve instinctively? Just wondering.....
