The future of 3D shooting.
Pennsylvania
Looking for first hand knowledge (your club's experience) or observations.
With the inclusion of horizontal bows and general trends in archery, do you think it is impacting attendance at 3D shoots? And what do you see in the future for 3D shooting?
The biggest problem we have around here is getting help. The same small group of people are the only help. Everyone wants to shoot. They just expect the courses to be up and running when they get there. My wife, son and I put in a lot of hours with 3 others to set up. We have over 100 members of the club. Then you always get the complainers who don't like the way the targets are set. So I invite them to help the next month but of course they don't show. We have a work log that is the same names repeated over and over. But to answer your question, I think that the crossbow hasn't effected much. We don't get many at shoots. I also think that the novelty has worn off. There are a lot of people selling their crossbows and shooting bows again. It is also funny seeing the looks on their faces when they see that longbows can be accurate. I have become the guy who gets asked about traditional archery. Since I shoot compounds also, it is easier to show both side of archery. This is especially helpful during youth night. We have 8 out of 25 shooting traditional gear. Not bad for an area that is loaded with compound influence. The kids are our future, we cannot forget that. We need to also understand that some people would love to shoot if given a chance. I have not met a kid who did not want to shoot a bow. I believe that most adults would also.
I think you under estimate the xbow thing. And I think more guys are getting lazy and turning to it rather than putting in the time at 3D courses. The only complaint I have with nearly every 3D shoot is the pace of shooting and the people that never let other shooters through. You know the one's, folding chairs, binoculars, 3' long stabilizer, 5-6 guys jamming it up all morning and not moving the shoot along even a little. If some courses had a ranger or even a set of rules to let the faster shooters through? A 30 target 3d shoot should not take 3 hours.
If crossbow shooters want to shoot 3D, then they should start their own crossbow club and have their own shoots. They should not be allowed at compound or trad shoots. They sold their soles and made their own bed. Let them live with it.
RC, where is that "outdoorsman" spirit the PGC wants to promote? I mean without their inclusion, where would all the advertisers go if not in our license book and where would the PGC get their juicy cash infusion due to their inclusion? C'mon RC... A little brotherhood for our gun inclusion guys....
I'm gonna go drink 10 beers, then I'll come back here and give you a 10 beer post on the PGC and crossbow girls.. LOL
Probably why not September Archery in 2B and the other early areas.
RC, that would be an interesting read. Make sure you use spell check after...
Now back on thread....although not like a few years ago.
You guys have to remember that when they where voting on the crossbow, the NRA reps. told the Game Comm. that it would be the BEST thing that happened for Pa. hunters.
At the club I belong to, there is a specific subgroup Traditional Group, and a rather loose Compound (open) group for the general membership interested in Archery.
For the Traditional events, it IS the same basic crew setting up, running, and tearing down the events. For the open events, it seems that the general membership relies a lot on the Traditional crew to do much of the work, with a few folks who shoot both formats also helping. The club has hundreds of members, many, many "talkers", but not that many doers (folks who actually show up to help) in ratio.
As for the crossgun element, from what I've heard, they are NOT included in open events, and definitely not at Traditional events. (Note: I say "From what I've heard." This may/may not be gospel, because the gospel is as steady as the changing wind...)
As for the specific 3D idea, the governing club just purchased a handful of new Rinehart 3D targets in the first week of February, with the idea of them being used at the next Traditional shoot to be held February 19. They will be put into rotation for all Archery events, Traditional and Open.
The governing club looked at the attendance and participation of Traditional Archers at Traditional only events (under the name "Strictly Sticks Traditional Archers") and participation at open events (under the name "East Huntingdon Sportsmens Association"), and realized that Archery was an event greatly contributing to the club.
The club looked at the past and present attendances, and realized investing in some new 3D targets was worth it.
So, at least one club in Southwestern Pennsylvania sees a future for 3D Archery events.
Here's my perspective. I don't belong to a club. I grew up bowhunting and have been shooting bows regularly since I was about 4 years old, now I'm in my late 20's. I think I finally went to my first 3D shoot at age 25 and have been to about 1-2 per summer since.
Why did it take me 20 years to go to my first shoot? I always thought that shoots were super competitive, filled with pro-staff tools and other people I generally did not want to be around. I live and breathe bowhunting, but it's not something I am interested in making a competition. I was surprised when I went to my first shoot to discover how laid back and casual it really was. I think that misconception is common from a few other people I've talked to, so that's out there.
Another factor is the timing. Most of the shoots I've seen are scheduled, and keep in mind these are the ones I see advertised because I am a very casual dabbler in this world, are on weekends in the summer. Summer weekends are busy to the point of frustration. Family gatherings, weddings, road trips, lots of fishing, you name it. As passionate as I am about bowhunting, it takes up such an incredibly significant amount of my time and "wife time capital" from September through January that I don't get the itch to block off a very valuable summer weekend to shoot my bow at some foam. There's an archery shop near my hometown that has a 3D course setup 24/7 and you pay an honor box and go shoot on your own time. Whenever I am back there I try to head out an evening and shoot that course. If I lived closer to it I would shoot it quite often when I have some free time. As tough as something like that would be to work logistically with a club, I think generally people are much more inclined to take advantage of that flexibility as opposed to fitting scheduled shoots into their busy schedules.
And no, I wouldn't think crossbows are having much impact on 3D shoots. Largely the guys that ran out and bought crossbows were previously rifle only hunters, they didn't take a large demographic of archery guys.
I help out with the Souderton-Harleysville Shoot in SE PA. We do a monthly (June - September, we did away with May due to poor attendance) 30 target shoot and it is set up for hunters, not target guys. We do not allow crossbows on the 3D course. Decline in attendance began long before the xbow thing came about. We have gone from a high of 300 at some shoots to being happy with breaking 50. Getting help has always been a problem but the core guys show up and get it done. If the average attendance keeps going down, it will be hard to sustain much longer with the amount of work that goes into it.
The Total Archery Challenge held by Prime Archery (bows) has its 3 day eastern shoot- this year was the 3rd, here in Pa at Seven Springs Resort. My numbers are general but not exact but after conferencing with the director of their shoots 6 across the country, I'll be close. 240 shooters 1st year, 450 the second 950 the third year, which the weather was absolutely terrible. Now they have multiple courses, different scenarios, western, mountain, eastern, kids etc etc etc. 3 days is the shoot. My kids did the shoot 2 years ago and walked 15 miles over the mountain terrain on that day. I was told 1500 shooters over 3 days at their other shoots Utah, Texas, Michigan? Is common. Traditional shooters carry plenty numbers for these shoots but CROSSBOWS ARE NOT PERMITTED AT PRIME SHOOTS!
Many shots are up to 120 yards. They give away door prizes carbon arrows. GPS software up to new Prime Bow packages. Decent hotel room rates and a banquet for shooters to attend on saturday evening. . They bring the entire line of Prime bows to try and will set up a new one just for you to try on another course.
Bob the Wounded awarrior Shoot you shot last year was sponsored by Prime. Didnt they have to use shuttles for the shooters at that one day event?
One of the my goals in the UBP/Pine Hill western pa shoot was the fact that 3 different courses break up the monotony of typical 3D course. I believe that and long RISKY shots attract shooters to The Prime shoots- folks of more modern technologies, like when optics are used. 100 yard shots arent a guarantee like a 20 yrd shot. Its not BORING:)
Lloydsville Sportsmans Club is where Jared belongs to the archery committee. Probably 10 to 12 AC members the oldest is not even 30 years old! And they are learning but they are in good hands.
I noticed Pine Hill has a great relationship with Pitcairn-Monroeville Sportsmans club. How about a 3D "Crawl"? Say Lloydsville and East Huntington doing shoots on the same day with a partnered fee say.....$20 gets you both shoots? Money Gets split. Shooters wear same color bracelets as proof of partnered payment. Guys could shoot The woods of Lloydsville and then tackle the mountains and open lots of East Huntington? Food and drink at both places. The next month it could be East Huntington and say Kingston Club. In fact why not add a 3rd club or fourth for a whole weekend? 2 clubs shoot saturday 2 shoot Sunday?
Just food for thought:) Im hungry now lol
RC, you ok? It was good to see the attendance at Strictly Sticks in January. Went to Saltsburg 3D on Sunday and had the usual attendance. I know quite a few fellows that have went to the crossbow, but most rarely, if ever, attended a 3D. We have some people that don't shoot at our local club's field course because of ticks.
Bottom line is I enjoy the 3D shoots and will travel to attend, but also prefer trad. only shoots because of the back up times as stated earlier.
When I started shooting in the mid 80's we went to club shoots where hay bales and paper animal targets were the norm. The shoots were very popular and we had a ball.
I remember the very first time I ever saw a 3-D target. One of the clubs had a standing bear and two deer targets on the hay bale course. We were blown away! Way cool!
Fast forward 30 years. A typical 3-D course has about as much appeal as flossing your teeth, and attendance is poor. Shoot saturation is mostly to blame as clubs and courses popped up every where to take advantage of the fad. Also, it just got boring, especially for today's modern equipment where missing the 10 ring rarely happens.
My local club did not have any shoots last summer, few even noticed, or cared. Just another sign of the times.
I mostly go to trad-only shoots now or only shoot with other stickbow shooters at mixed shoots. That's the key to making a standard course into a really fun and memorable event. It's the people you shoot with.
When we go to mixed shoots we get there late to let all the techies finish before we start. It's just too agonizing to watch or follow a group with their little chairs, toolboxes, umbrellas, and binoculars. My gosh they take forever to shoot an arrow. ,
Well, I've been setting up, running and shooting 3D's for more than 35 yrs. now. From the early Delta targets to Pottinger 2D targets to where we are to day.Since the beginning when our club would attract 3-400 shooters for a 2 day shoot, it has tailed off significantly. Having said that, I don't believe it has "flat lined" yet. Actually I believe archery participation has increased somewhat but 3D's have pretty much stagnated to where it is today. Starting in the spring, (weather permitting) I pretty much shoot every weekend somewhere. I enjoy shooting different courses and seeing what different clubs have to offer. Since I don't golf and I'm too old for other physical sports, I shoot 3D. There does seem to be consistent recruitment but just as hunter numbers dwindle so does the attendance at 3D's after all it's not a "2 thumb- sit on your ass sport". You actually have to put forth some physical effort to enjoy it. I blame society and parents for that. Indoor 3D shooting seems to have a lot of interest in our area but it doesn't seem to carry of to the outdoor shoots. Most club comments are the same - lack of help / only the same handful of guys doing all the work and not even their own members will come out to shoot??? What's up with that - probably afraid that they would actually be asked to lift a hand a help?? Who knows? I don't believe that crossbows have had much of an affect on it. The guys that have been recruited into "crossbow archery" are not the same guys that have made real archery what it is. Most of these guys are not willing to cock the crossbow 50 to 100 times in one day to shoot a 3D course I would say that less than 1% of the people who shoot 3D's are crossbow shooters. They are welcome at our club(Oneida) simply because it is a legal hunting weapon but few ever show for the above reasons. Having said all that, ( and I never thought I would say this) I do believe they have been a partial cause or reason that the quality of the bucks we are hunting have improved. I think that we have recruited a large number of older rifle hunters into the archery season and guess what they like it. Better weather, solitude, longer season , more personal contact with nature - all the reasons we all enjoy it so much and they have chosen it over gun season. Note the total lack of participation and dwindling numbers of gun season hunters. Approximately 50% of the total buck kill is in archery seasons now. More bucks are surviving because of it. I guess unintended consequences that sometimes happen in a positive way. I would like to give kudos to Dale for thinking "outside the box" and stepping up to organize a 100 target 3D shoot here in the western part of the state. I would hope that we all try and support this effort and the UBP in this venture. I truly believe that this type of thinking is the only way to try and maintain or increase archery participation in 3D's. Shooting 3D's serve many purposes. I enjoy the friendly competition and the increased pressure to make a good shot in competition is about the only thing that will come close to the actual situation we encounter in the woods and I believe that we owe it to our quarry to be prepared the best we can be for the ultimate 3D shoot we all enjoy each fall. It's all abut the practice ladies and gentlemen!!!!!
" Why did it take me 20 years to go to my first shoot? I always thought that shoots were super competitive, filled with pro-staff tools and other people I generally did not want to be around. I live and breathe bowhunting, but it's not something I am interested in making a competition. I was surprised when I went to my first shoot to discover how laid back and casual it really was. I think that misconception is common from a few other people I've talked to, so that's out there."-EY
Yah at times I've met a few shooters that thought they were special, although for the most part they were there for fun and aiming fluid. Me? ....Man I lost so many arrows on our course they are having babies. I even got a trophy for losing an arrow on our indoors course. True!
Joey, you are doing something wrong. I've never lost an arrow. Well ok, maybe 1.
RC, only need one arrow, they last for months.
I belong to two clubs in the SE; Wapiti Archers & Clover Leaf Archery. Here's my observations: 1. Neither club allows xbows on the 3D course. 2. Both clubs have 3D shoots 12 mos. a year; Wapiti 1st & 5th Sunday of the month; Clover Leaf 2nd & 5th Sunday of the month. 3. Both clubs attract a fair amount of traditional archers to their shoots, especially during the winter & nasty weather. 4. IMO, Both clubs will continue to have 3D's & both will continue to prohibit xbows on the 3D course. 5. One club in Lower Bucks County allows xbows at their 3D shoots. IMO they're as slow, maybe a bit slower, than the compound shooters, and back things up, because, like compound shooters, they feel the need to take time to range a target, & then have to stand at the target and fill out the stupid score card, then leave the target...just like the compound shooters. Can only shoot that club once a year because of how long it takes to shoot it.
Has it become like mini-golf? I only like the tricky shots:)
Xbow. Thank you for this quote this has had me thinking for the last day.
"They are welcome at our club(Oneida) simply because it is a legal hunting weapon but few ever show for the above reasons. Having said all that, ( and I never thought I would say this) I do believe they have been a partial cause or reason that the quality of the bucks we are hunting have improved. I think that we have recruited a large number of older rifle hunters into the archery season and guess what they like it. Better weather, solitude, longer season , more personal contact with nature - all the reasons we all enjoy it so much and they have chosen it over gun season. Note the total lack of participation and dwindling numbers of gun season hunters. Approximately 50% of the total buck kill is in archery seasons now. More bucks are surviving because of it. I guess unintended consequences that sometimes happen in a positive way. "
This is a very unique perspective on the influence of x-guns into our season. There is no doubt that rifle hunting in the state is no longer like it was, "the million man army" is a skeleton of what it used to be in the 80's and 90's. Camps are abandoned and most I know take a week of vacation and stay home during archery season as apposed to traveling to camp for the first week of rifle. Most of these hunters are "unsuccessful" with regards to harvest but have enjoyed the overall experience much more; being in the woods during the rut, experiencing the rut first hand, favorable temps, close up natural experiences, lack of hunting pressure. The more I've thought about this... I have to agree that the overall dispersion and diversity of hunters throughout the season from Sept to Jan, through different modalities of weapons has probably contributed to the maturity of the whitetail herd. It would be very interesting to see some actual evidence base.
I do know the first several years of Archery harvests were over 30 percent crossbows ( last couple years I'm not sure of the percentage). I feel crossbows do not have the science of factoring in of a mature deer herd. I know antler restrictions have the science, with over 80 percent of first year bucks taken before antler restrictions ( yes over 80 percent). While I have no proof I feel the managing of doe tags is the second factor tied to a healthier forestry being two fold. While I totally agree many gun hunters are now in the woods, I would bet there are more newbie crossbow hunters in the woods than rifle hunters that have crossed over. Again I have no science on this. I do know of several muzzleloader hunters that have switched to crossbows because of the crossbow's shot reliability, myself included. Just my humble opinion. Now forget all this.
In the 2014 - 2015 season, archers harvested about 37% of the bucks. Right off the PGC website..
Thanks Pat, Not to get off the subject but I believe that probably 70% of our hunters now buy an archery and/or muzzle loader tag. It may be time for the PGC to start thinking "outside the box" a little and start to pattern our season lengths and management regs more toward that of Ohio and Illinois etc. Probably won't see it my lifetime but would definitely provide the recreational hours that the license buying trends seem to demanding. It has taken a while but the license buying public has gone and/or is going through a more QDM educational process and are liking it Now back to 3D LOL!
RC - that figure is good but it is now 2 yrs old. I believe that I read that the 15/16 figures was in the high 40's. It will be interesting to see what it was this past season. It has been increasing right along since the legalizing of crossbows.
Yup the legalizing of crossbows.. If it ever came to a point that archery season was shortened due to the larger buck harvest, would you be happy?
If they shortened archery season they'll just take the crap weeks off the front end and save us all some mosquito bites. We, their customers, would flip if they took any more of November from us. They ain't the brightest folks in the state but they aren't that dumb either. Any simple trend analysis shows archery is the way of the future and we'll get more opportunities as the baby boomers continue to to die off and the camps in the big woods meet the bulldozers. Might be 20 or 30 years the rate this fine Commonwealth moves, but we'll get more November time eventually. You crossbow alarmists are as bad as the entitled rifle whiners. It's been what, 10 years and the sky isn't falling...I think we're gonna pull through. Muzzleloaders are likely going to get October buck opportunities down the road as well and I have a feeling the deer won't go extinct due to that either.
Elk I wouldn't call myself an alarmist. I believe science and not politics should be the important factor. For example,like Toomey vote this week,several of the PGC commissioners at the time were bought off with crossbow trips to the west. Even though she voted for crossbows I admired Roxanne, and a couple others,for not taking a hunt( how is that a name from the past).Other states biology was used more than ours. Today I see politicians wanting to dictate management and not the PGC / biologists. This could work for today's bow hunters, although maybe not for our children and grandchildren.
No back to the subject. Possum Hollow allows crossbows on outdoor shoots and we get a few.
Dog gonnit, Elk. Ya talked me into it, I'm going to buy a crossbow. I hear tell ya can shoot a deer at 80 yards with one. How far does yours shoot?
Mr.Painter, 1. I'm surprised the posts haven't been deleted ...yet 2. I've missed em farther.....LOL
the only way RC will kill a deer is if he hits with his truck.
I'd be interested in how many of your big bucks are being shot early in the season compared to the rut, mainly from trail camera's patterning them. I've seen some pictures of really big ones taken way early in the season, before being disturb.
I'd be interested if anyone would like to discuss the original question?
Hell no..............
And
I'm getting better and better...
Jeff excellent point I never thought of. u2 Mr. Painter.
Bob, I was asking a few questions to some new members. (Compounders) They have went and enjoyed a 3D but it is expensive for them. Family of 4, 40$ entry, $20 grub, 3 or 4 lost carbon's, and your approaching a $100 bill. And they didn't buy a T shirt.
Shooting inside at a 3 spot target with little arrow damage and paying $3-5 dollars a piece for shooting, then going outside is a world of difference for them. Wouldn't think that trad guys would be much different, other than most don't shoot inside. If they even belong to a club.
Jeff, I've seen Bobby lose arrows inside too. LMFAO
:) who was it that shot the light fixture some time ago?
I saw the garbage bin get shot at our local indoor range.
Dale....I am thinkin' that was Harry Carry :)
Help is not the issue. We have a core of bout 10-12 guys ready to work and I would think we would get a few more once we get started.
By my estimates we would cover our food cost at twenty-twenty five shooters. I would like to think that 50 shooters is a doable number.
HARRY CARRY did shoot out a light fixture. Sometime in 2004 or so. Many have been sacrificed since then.
Bob: covering costs is always good. Upkeep, then eventual replacement of targets will be something you'll have to consider. Depending on your club structure, upkeep/replacement funds will be a real "issue" in due time. I hope for your efforts that everyone is "on the same page" when that time does come. We are facing that now, since the sponsor club is not an "archery primary" sporting club.
Whatever comes to fruition, though, let us know the schedule, so we can attend, and hopefully not have any date conflicts!
At Possum Hollow the indoor 3D have really picked up the last two weeks. Also this weekend was the most female shooters I've ever seen at a 3D.
FYI ...we also have family rates....can't remember em. Like with Harry we have a target fund. Usually more in that fund than our general fund.
Bob, You can already count on at least 6 of us Flatlanders to come to your shoots. For those of you who don't know, Mr. Hildenbrand is the E F Hutton of archery shoots, if he recommends, or is involved with any shoot, it's always the real deal. Look for coming info for the 2nd Annual Block Shoot. It is different than most archery contests, and trust me, it is an absolute BLAST.
The biggest detriment to clubs regarding 3D is the cost of targets, especially the Rhinehart where a coyote target costs five times more than an entire field target supply. We have lost a lot of clubs that once hosted field shoots, and tried 3D, but the demand from shooters for the better (?) targets drove them out of the archery shoots altogether. Cry about the crossbows all you like, but they aren't the problem. They are allowed at the Pa. Bowhunter's Festival but you see very few of them there, and the attendance there has been steady by average for the past couple decades. The hatred for an inanimate object belies logic. If you want attendance and money coming in, then open the general shoots to all archers and allow the crossbow. They won't be shooting against anyone but other crossbows, so what's the deal.
I have no desire to shoot a crossbow, but I don't hate the dang things. Around here you see very few of them in the hunting woods, and likely, after a while, the new will wear off of them as well. By the way, they were advertised in the 1952 Archery magazine, so that's not new either. Maybe start thinking inclusive, rather than exclusive if you want to build an archery club. If it's just a traditional club, then you have already declared your exclusivity and that's fine as well.....except for trying to draw from a smaller entity.
I agree George. I can not understand why some people are bothered by what other shoot.
Crossbows suck. You guys can hold their hand all ya want.
While I use a wheelbow then a crossbow second season to Mr. Painter I agree .... kumbiya. Just mHo
You go big grand pappy. You are a real bow hunter now.. Wheels, stocks, scopes, and triggers. Yee Ha crapola...
Here is a link to a recent article from Ohio. Read it and pay particular attention to the last half of the article. Could it be that we (Pa.) are finally catching up with the trend only a mere 20 yrs. late as usual. ??? Food for thought!
So Ron, ya hung up your 308 for a crossgun?
While some of you have been having your Kum Ba Yah moment with X-guns the term "Bowhunter" has eroded into an all inclusive wimpy version of its former self.
Just another sign of the times where everyone gets a trophy.
Couldn't agree more Red!! Let's give everybody one!!
Let them have their trophies! Who cares? I don't really care what you think about how I hunt and what equipment I use and I'm for sure not seeking your approval for it. If I want to shoot a deer off the ground with my longbow rather than out of a tree with my compound I don't expect you to think I'm a bad@$$.
Ordered a crossbow this morning, 4x night vision scope, timothy double set trigger, automatic battery powered cocking mechanism, 150 pound limbs in camo. Supposed to be able to hit a deer at 100 yards. Thanks PGC.
Jake,
Must have hit a nerve, huh?
You got your wish, I don't give a crap about how you hunt.
Bad@$$ in the Maple City
To each their own I guess.
Ahh, the xbows will be alright once the airbows are legalized:(. Maybe someday they will get an idea to have a primitive archery season........... again...........
Heck the PGC's idea of primitive is a semi automatic rifle..
Sorry Bob, side tracked again.
LOL bro. What time are going to Pitcarin on Sunday?
