My thoughts, I believe they should step down from an organization they are on the board of. Without hesitation.
Here's what I am thinking is being asked by a putting some posts together. Yes, I know of the situation as I was informed about it late last week.
The names were changed not to protect anyone, just because I felt it would be better.
Joe was running a trap line with his friend Jerry on their private property. Jerry couldn't make it one morning because he wasn't feeling well, so Joe went to check the traps by himself. Joe found that a fisher had been trapped in one of the traps, but Jerry had a valid tag back at home. Joe, a trapping instructor and teacher knew that the law stated the fisher needed to be properly tagged before removing it from the site, but thought it would be in Jerry's best interest to bring the fisher back home and have Jerry tag it when he got there. On his way home Joe was stopped by Warden Bob and a citation was written for - Possess/transport untagged raw pelt or unskinned carcass of bobcat, fish, otter, or wolf. Joe admitted his guilt by paying the fine.
Joe did notify Bill, the president of one of the organizations he is on the board of. The president apparently knew of the situation and did not come to notify the other board members until it was brought the the board members attention by fellow hunters and trappers.
The questions are -
Seeing that Joe should have known the law, because he himself is a trapping instructor and a board member of some organizations. Should Joe be asked to resign his position from these organizations?
Do board members have to hold themselves to a higher standard because they are in the public eye more than the regular member?
Should Joe be made to give up his teaching certification and not be allowed to teach hunter safety, trapping or be involved in LTH events?
Should the president who withheld information from the board of directors be asked to resign and leave his post at the organization?
Should the president be held responsible for NOT telling others and keeping this information from the members of the organization.
And lastly -
Should the members use the power that Wisconsin Statues affords them to clean up the mess that Bill and Joe have created??
I await your responses.
Have a wonderful day!
Two Feathers's Link
As far as Bill, it depends on what Board he was the President of and what their rules were. If an incidental violation didn't violate the organization's rules he didn't have any obligation to report it to the rest of the members. If it did, then he should have brought it to the Board's attention for them to discuss what should be done with Joe. If he didn't pass on information that he should have, he also should face whatever penalties were appropriate.
According to the law, intent is not required as a component of a violation. In my mind there is a major distinction between an oversight and someone intentionally breaking the law. Someone shooting a collared dove during the dove season is on a whole different plane than spotlighting a deer from the road and should be treated differently.
Higher standard? No, all people, whether a board member or not, should obey the law.
Yes to the next 2 questions.
I'm not sure what you are asking with the last question. I'm from Michigan and do not know what Wisconsin statute to which you are referring.
Joe's wife never seen the poster "Loose Lips Sink Ships"
Here are the regulations - Yes, they are open to interpretation, but a phone call or a trip back to the house would have made it a non issue and no citation would have been issued. Assuming that both names were on the trap.....
Permits and Tags You may not: •possess or have under control any bobcat, fisher or otter carcass unless you immediately validate, attach and seal your pelt tag through the opening of the animal’s mouth to the opening of its eye, immediately beneath the skin (see instructions on the pelt tag for further details). The pelt and DNR registration tags shall remain attached to the pelt until removed by a fur dresser or taxidermist at time of preparation; •possess, loan or borrow a license or pelt tag belonging to another, or; •place your tag on a bobcat, fisher or otter which has been caught, trapped or killed by another person (includes those caught in traps set by another person). Note: a person is not allowed to tag a bobcat, fisher or otter that was intentionally or accidentally caught in a trap set by another person. A person who tags a trapped bobcat, fisher or otter must be the person who made the trap set. •transfer, give, trade, sell or purchase any bobcat, fisher or otter pelt unless an authorized DNR representative has attached a registration tag to the pelt; or, •possess bobcat, fisher or otter pelts longer than 5 days after the month of harvest without registering the pelt(s) with an authorized DNR representative.
Tweed - I sent you a PM...Thanks
There has been a lot said about this situation on this thread and opinions vary tremendously. I understand that and I respect everyone's right to draw their own conclusions. However, I would ask this: please do not draw a final conclusion or form a final opinion until all of the facts surrounding this have been revealed and you have an understanding of exactly what happened.
In Bills case- “The cover up is always worse than the crime”
If you are a board member with Bill and Joe you are either in on it or you should be royally pissed for being dis-respected. Their posts make it clear which side they are on.
Sweep, Sweep--------Lift Rug--------Sweep, Sweep
I think the most unsettling thing is the way it was handled (or not handled), the amount of people who knew something was going on but silence from board members that knew.
Even though things like this should've been taken care of quickly and for the person who was cited to own up to it (which seems like he tried to an extent) waiting until the convention to let something like this to air seems like someone is pushing an agenda.
Sure am glad I don't pay money to an organization that is run this way....I pay enough to the feds and state that already operate this way.
If it were an issue I believe that WON would have a story out about it already.
If you don't know all of the facts don't jump to any conclusions.
Well put albino and Casekiska.
What is the story that you heard? Do you know the parties involved? Do people deserve 2nd chances? What were others people reaction when you told them about this? What would you do if you were on the board and violated? What would you do if you were president?
I only ask these questions because you started the thread. :)
Not a member
My question was about violators serving in the sporting and policy making organizations, and not any specific instance.
I do not know Bill, Joe, Joes wife, Jerry or Warden Bob.
Some people deserve a second chance that does not mean that there are no consequences to ones actions.
I was asked by a Conservation Congress Delegate my thoughts about removing people from their ranks with conservation violations (Thus the original question).
If I were President of an organization and a sitting board member was convicted of a conservation violation while serving I would think that person would have the decency to do resign without being asked. If not I would respectfully ask them to step aside.
If I were President, and was informed of such information I would have no choice but to inform the rest of my board members immediately. The board should be kept abreast all of matters such as these in my opinion.
Lastly if it were me that received a conservation citation I would have the decency to step aside without hesitation.
Hope this helps
Wow Albino....I didn't rush in, I asked questions...that's how you learn things. I'm sorry if my questions and me stating my observations has made you defensive and view this as destructive behavior. I think its very constructive to have these conversations.
People always ask why I don't become a member of WBH. It was mostly because I'm new and trying decide which organization I want to pay dues to between WBH, WTA and WisTrap. I'm glad a board member of one of those organizations has helped me decide by telling me he's glad I'm not a member.
EDITED
Also, I would be very surprised if you knew all of the pertinent facts regarding this situation. At this point in time few do; they are the individual involved, the warden, and the warden supervisor, and perhaps a very few other individuals. To cast a verdict and assign a sentence without a thorough knowledge of the facts of any case is irresponsible. Not to mention it is very unfair to the individual involved. How would you like to be judged so prematurely and harshly?
More food for thought ..... I am certain there is not anyone on this forum who does not have skeletons in his/her closet and hasn't done something they could have been in trouble for. Maybe you got caught, maybe you didn't. I don't know. But I'll betcha there have been times in your life when someone gave you a second chance, forgave you the transgression, and allowed you to move on without or with only minor consequence.
So before we come down on someone with the heaviest hammer we can muster, let us avoid an uninformed and premature opinion. The facts will be revealed in due time, relatively soon. Then, credible opinions can be formed. A rush to judgement, as has been happening here, does little to complement our sense of fair play.
I am in the dark about the carp issue and would like to be informed. Can someone shed the light on this issue?
Thanks!
Life goes on
Anywho.... It's illegal to spear carp? I thought they were garbage fish and could take them out any time? Well... The more you know. Turns out this was a useful thread.
Do I agree with it, no. Was the law broken, yes.
Should it be changed, I don't care one way or the other.
In my opinion, he should have known the regulations. We pass on carp every year when trying to spear a sturgeon.
Pay the fine and move on. A big deal, not in my opinion.
So here goes;
A VIOLATOR NEVER GETS CAUGHT THE FIRST TIME. ;-)
That said, good thread!
A carp? Laughable. Might as well spear zebra mussels.
I'm interested in the other.
I find the inability to destroy rough fish without a license or at least by rule as stupid as any hunting licenseholder not being allowed to harvest certain preditors...i.e. coyote.
Hopefully it will clear things up a bit as I made some statements earlier that, in fact I should have done more investigating before I posted. I am sure that some board members feel that they have been called out, and believe me I did not want this to be the case and I apologize.
I received a message from a person here on Bowsite, who happens to be a member of the WBH who recently rejoined after a few years. Why did he recently rejoin? I don't know and it's none of my business.
The message from this person stated "Mike you kept harping on Ron Kulas about his game violation.. But you say nothing about the other board member that was convicted Dec. 6 2016 .... Are you part of the good old boys club of the WBH..."
At first I was mad that I had been asked this question, because I had no knowledge of anything that had happened and was being called out by this person. I had to dig into it. I started by checking the CCAP website one director at a time and found that in fact Rich Kirchmeyer had been cited for Possess/transport untagged raw pelt or unskinned carcass of bobcat, fish, otter, or wolf. OK now things started to make sense.
I contacted a couple of WBH Board members, hoping that I would get some answers, but no one had a clue as to what I was talking about. I began to think that this was some kind of a cover up and it not something I had ever seen coming. I imagined another Shit Storm like the last time.
I then received this message from the same person "Mike I have brought it up to some of the board members. They knew nothing about it. I have learned the Brust knew about it back in Dec. But he and Kirchmeyer elected not to share that information with the board at the Jan. meeting. I was told last night that Brust was not going to ask Kirchmeyer to step down. THAT IS BULLSHIT>!!!!!!! Of course I was told Last night that Brust was also convicted in years past of a game violation so why would he ask his buddy Kirchmeyer to step down. The WBH is corrupt. The trappers Asso. has been also been informed. The president said he had no knowledge of it bit was going to look into it."
I didn't find anything in CCAP that Mike Brust had been convicted of any hunting violation.
The next message I received was "I am getting a lot of calls and emails..........I'm waiting to see what you come up with. This should be on bowsite."
Ok, now I had to dig deeper and get to the bottom and here what the parties involved had to say. I first contacted the Warden who wrote the citation, I got his voicemail. I left a message and shortly after that I received a call from the Warden Supervisor. We talked for a bit and he informed me with the details of the citation and what had transpired from 11/2 to 12/6. He is sending me a copy of all of the information and of the citation. Rich was checking his traps and found that a fisher was in the trap. He did not have a tag, but his wife did. He pulled the trap and took the trap and the fisher home and had his wife tag it. According to the Warden Supervisor the Rich and his wife had been running the traps together for some time and everything was legal, up until when Rich took the trap home without having the fisher properly tagged. I was set back by this and looked into the trapping regulations and thought to myself - If I was in this situation, I would have done the same thing. Now that I am informed I will not take the fisher from the trap site without tagging it first. To me it was a misinterpretation of the tagging rule. I can live with that.
As far as when Rich informed Mike Brust if the citation, that was yet to be determined.
After hearing this and receiving more messages and emails I already had my mind made up. Rich was guilty and Mike Brust had to be holding back information. I was ready to hang the both of them from the highest tree or run them out of town. I was misinformed about the citation and my mind had been changed on that, but one question still remained. When did Rich inform Mike Brust and why weren't the board members informed at the last board meeting?
Then I got out my WBH magazine and found the directors list. It was a very hard decision to contact Rich. I have known him for some time and just couldn't understand how he would just go out and break the law like this. The Warden Supervisor told me that Rich had been very upset with himself and was having a hard time dealing with it. How could I just pick up the phone and give him a call? I sent Rich an email, hoping for a reply. About 15 minutes later the phone rang and it was Rich. We had a good discussion and he told me that the reason that the board members were not informed is because he did not tell Mike Brust until after the last board meeting. That was his decision and I can live with that.
So it boils down to this.
Did Rich make a mistake in taking the trap with the fisher in it back home after finding that a fisher was in it? Yes, and that was never a question about that. Rich has admitted this, paid the fine and is prepared to move on. He will not lose any of his certifications, or the ability to teach the LTH classes. He will not lose any hunting privileges nor will he lose any of my respect.
Now as far as Mike Brust holding back information, I do not see this as the case. Rich did not notify the WBH until after the last board meeting. That being said no one had to be notified until the next meeting, but that changed when someone read about the citation in the local newspaper. I see no reason to pursue this any further at this time.
This Friday the board will be meeting and we will be holding our annual meeting of the members of the WBH on Sunday.
Oh, and by the way...It must not be real important to the person who called me out, as he has informed me that he is not going to be at the convention. I feel like the stooge here, being called out and doing the dirty work for someone who doesn't want to even come to the convention....
I am looking forward to seeing those that can make it to the convention this weekend. I am sure it will be a good time. Travel safe and I hope to see you there.
Sweep, Sweep----------Lift Rug-------Sweep, Sweep