Antler Restrictions New
New York
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Antler Restriction NY
Antler Restriction NY
Antler restrictions have been proposed as shown in jpg.
That would be awesome as far as I am concerned as long as they allow kids 18 years of age and younger to harvest any legal antlered deer. Shawn
Should we not teach our youth what is good for the masses is good for you?
In other words if we set a certain criteria it applies to everyone.
To put it in simple terms a, DUI is defined as over .08 unless you are under 18 then it really doesn't count.
Why do we to have legislation with exceptions?
When I started hunting a buck had to have horn of 3 inches, now we need to make rules to help the supposedly disadvantaged.
If it is good for everyone to have at least 3 or 4 points on a side, then it should be the rule.
Petcontain, I agree, and WMU 6N should be included in this bill.
It should be up to DEC, with no input from politicians. If I had my own land to hunt I'd love it, but then I wouldn't need to force it on others. My land, my rules, your land your rules. I've hunted for 52 years with out this, hope to hunt many more with out it as well.
Gaffer, It's obvious after reading your post, you do not own your own hunting land. Just like hunting public land ,if you own land, you still have plenty of rules to follow.
I would love antler pt. restrictions but in 8t . there are it seems unlimited crop damage permits. How will that help the age class?
Wouldn't effect me in any way although I like the idea I am against forcing it on people. Some guy pays taxes on 100 acres and goes out and shoots "his" buck every year at 8AM on opening day I have a hard time getting upset about that.
I work at a college that allows bow hunting on our 1400 acres and we do ask those allowed to hunt to abide by antler restrictions although we don't enforce it. Most of the kids these days have grown up watching hunting shows on TV and I am surprised how many who haven't killed many deer are willing to wait for a big one.
I think the mindset has changed in many places and people get if they let them grow a little they will kill bigger deer. Hunting at least in my area of NY has never been better when it comes to big better bucks.
Well I am against restrictions. I'm a senior 69 yrs and hunt with a longbow. I'm damn lucky to get a shot at any buck and I don't want the state or anyone else telling what size buck I must shoot on my own property. If you want to pass up bucks waiting for the big one go for it. I might pass too depending on how I feel that day etc etc. But the choice will be mine.
By the way I have passed on bucks for different reasons. This year I shot a nice 8pt with a 20 1/2 inside spread and weighed 190 field dressed. But that is not my most memorable deer because I shot it with a rifle. My most memorable is a 3pt that I shot with my longbow at 40 yds and made a perfect double lung hit. So you can see success and happiness when it comes to hunting is different for different people. Don't force your idea of success and happiness on anyone else because they may feel differently. We don't need anymore state regulations.
Another thing. If I was forced to wait for a buck with at least 3 pts on one side at my age , and because I must be very close with my longbow to get a good ethical shot,I may never get a chance to shoot a buck again before I get too old to hunt.
Somebody needs to explain why 3 pts on 1 side is good in 7M but we need 4 pts on one side in 7J as opposed to 2 pts on each side. All seems like the creators of this legislation is pulling the rules out of their butt. If they are looking for age structure what about the old grey buck I shot which was so far past his prime he was just a spike and the gravy we made you had to cut with a knife.
The whole point of antler restrictions is to make people look. If you think about it saying points on a side is a really stupid way to do it. A 1.5 year old with 3 or 4 points on a side has already shown some potential. You could end up killing the golden goose. Case in point I killed this 10 point back in 2004. I had just started targeting bigger bucks had changed jobs and a long commute that year and had less time than normal to hunt. That was my excuse anyway when I killed this deer. If you want to kill big bucks this is ABSOLUTELY NOT the deer you want to kill.
But and this is a big but how many hunters out there want to kill "Big Bucks" and how many are going to leave the sport because of the restrictions?
Pat point well taken. As you can see I am questioning this whole idea and I am not sure where I stand on it. I have heard of the success you have had on your NY property and even talked to a adjacent farmer who mentioned you by name.
Petcontain, because they are kids is why. That is how it is in most areas with antler restrictions. It may not be 18 but it should be. We need to recruit new hunters and by not giving them the chance to succeed they lose interest. Sorry but that is common sense. Shawn
Well Shawn, I have been around long enough when age did not matter, it was 3 inch to be a legal buck. It did not discourage me nor should new regs discourage the youth. It is a matter of the parent or mentor setting the expectation and teaching. IMO we just don't need "Safe Places in Deer Hunting".
If you want to fix the youth issue in NY the way to do it isn't special seasons or treatment. We never had that. The way to do it is lower the hunting age. By the time they are old enough in NY you are competing with too many other things.
My kids were interested when they were really young just wanting to hang out with dad. The older they got the less interested they became when they couldn't take game and honestly looking back I should have just broke the law with my kids and let them hunt and fill my tags. Sadly we are past all that now and neither is interested in hunting. Thanks NY one more reason you suck.
I am all for Antler restrictions but I rather see the one Buck Rule over antler restrictions.
Pat I agree 100% with your post above!
I too could live with the one buck rule.
Those who hunt in areas where the population is high need not be limited to 1 buck.One buck rule just leads to fewer licenses sold and more unreported , illegal kills.
PC, that makes no sense at all. Yeah at 3" it would not matter at all. The discussion is making it 3 or more to a side. That discourages at lot of kids when all they are seeing is spikes and 4 pts. Lower the age and put on the restrictions just let the kids up too 17 years old shoot whatever legal(3") buck they want. We all know once a buck gets older then 2.5 they get harder to kill. Some kids would go years without shooting a buck, that would not help keep them in the sport at all. Trust me I have been around a long time. I have been deer hunting for over 47 years. Hell the area I hunt did not even have a bow season til 1977 and then it was 1984 before gun opened. Shawn
We hunt an hour north of Pat in the ADK'S. After nearly 20 years of trying to grow "big" deer following the QDM tenants of planting food plots, logging, shooting does, maintaining observation data, aging jaw bones and attempting to harvest bucks with greater than 12" spreads in attempts to kill bucks greater than 3.5 years old, we were lucky if we killed 1-3 such bucks a year and occasionally killed one in mid-120s" . Our lack of "success" was due to a lack of nutrition, poor genetics, hard winters and predation. We saw a lot of 2.5 year old bucks during that time but rarely saw a 3.5+ buck on cameras or in the field.
This year we finally went back to having fun. We had the best season our club had since I was a kid in the mid '80s killing 7 bucks ([email protected], [email protected], [email protected]) with a 14 year old girl earning her first buck (4 pt.) during the youth season. We had a lot more stories and a lot more fun. It took a long time to get us back to where we are now.
Take care. Mike
X2 Pat, Antler restrictions work plain and simple and three on one side is not a big restriction.
What is the proper age of a buck which makes it "acceptable" to shoot?
Southern Tier? Adirondacks? Iowa? Nebraska?
My understanding is the inside spread is a more accurate predictor of age than number of points. In our area, we observed an inside spread >=13.5" to equate to a 3.5+ age deer.
The irony is we let many, many, 2.5 year old deer go over a long period of time and rarely saw them as 3 to 5 year olds because they weren't?/ aren't there due to the reasons cited above.
We have finally come to the realization that a 2.5 year old buck in our area of the Adirondacks is pretty damn good. We are collectively starting to have fun hunting again.
In my opinion, the decision is best left to each individual based on their individual circumstances.
Mike
Way too many differing opinions on what the correct way is to manage a herd especially in the State as a whole........and you will never please everyone. Point restrictions can backfire as pointed out by Meathook above.........lots of small baskets running around with tremendous potential..........killing them at 1-1/2 or 2-1/2 because they had enough points on one side won't work for preserving future trophies.
Aubs8's Link
Petcontain's Link
All of the AR supporters should be required to hunt state land only in the NZ without DMPs for 5 consecutive years and then make their decision......
Growing Big Deer from what I understand is a combination of three things:
1 age as the AR people want. 2 nutrition as Pat has provided on his properties 3 Genetics which God provides
Sure we can make all the Antler Restrictions we want to increase age but without nutrition and genetics it just does not work to grow big antlered deer.
Let's look at nutrition in NY, many areas of the state are farmland but there are also large areas of state lan such as the Adirondacks which just does not have the supporting nutrition.
Now take genetics, a lot of large tracks of land such as in Texas help to build the genetics by removing inferior bucks 1 yr old spikes and crotch horns because they do not have the potential. They also feed (nutrition) and control the buck to doe ratio.
I believe the AR people are only touching on one part of the equation when they are asking for what they have proposed.
I would like to hear how everything has been considered when the rules are don't shoot anything less than 3 or 4 points on a side.
Nothing wrong with the whitetail genetics in the ADK's. Just go to ADKhunter .com and take a look at some of the Bucks posted there. Also, Jim massett, Joe Dinitto, the Salarno's, and the list goes on kill great ADK bucks each fall.
C. Alshiemer proved that ther are good genetics in the ADK's . Years ago he purchased a wild ADK yearling spike buck from the Avery's near Speculator, NY. He took it to his farm in Stueben County and with better nutrition and age, the buck was a 160" class buck at 6 1/2 years of age. Would this buck have been a 160" buck if left in the ADK's ? Given the poorer soils and nutrition of the ADK's, Probably not, but he still would have been a great buck given the chance to mature. The answer to the equation is pretty simple, If this buck would have been killed at 1 1/2 years old, it never would have never been able to show it's potential.
Personally, I would support AR's in the Southern Tier, but I don't in the ADK's...Two completely different situations. I would leave it to the Tug Hill guys to determine what is best for them...They have hard winters but seem to kill big, heavy bucks year after year.
I also believe in making an exception for youth and persons over 60...If they want to shoot a spike or a crotch, have at it.
While we are at it, we may as well adopt the youth hunting laws of PA to get kids involved early.
Let's make hunting fun again.??
Take care. Mike
Hi Squash. Our data over 20 years shows that ADK buck would most likely not have lived to 4.5 due to lack of nutrition, winters and predation.
Until this latest snowstorm, much of the southern tier has had no snow on the ground for weeks. A much different scenario for Tug Hill and the Western ADK's. That is the biggest difference and commonly occurs.
In 40 years, our 1900 acre club in the ADK'S has only killed a handful of 120"+ bucks including a 130" buck and a 154" non-typical.
I can tell you it is not fun hunting big deer that aren't there.
Mike
Hi Aubs8, Not to high jack this thread, but the best deer hunting in the ADK's was after the blowdown in1951 that flattened much of the over mature closed canopy of the forest preserve. Having hunted Tug Hill and many areas in the ADK's for over 40 years, And as a professional Forester who works for a management company that manages over 250 thousand acres of industrial timberland in both Tug Hill and the ADK's, I have to disagree with your lack of nutrition premise. Not knowing where your ADK club is located, your club situation may be different As for the ADK's, over 3 million acres are privately held lands, a good portion of that is being logged, and that is creating a similar situation as the great blowdown. I know thiousands of acres in the ADk's that I have personally been involved with the forest management and harvests, where the deer, grouse, habitat has been vastly improved due to our forest management . Plus I know that since these properties have been logged, recently many mature bucks have been taken from these areas. Joe Dinitto killed a 6 1/2 year old buck this past season in one of these areas.
Aubs, One other thing, you are right ," it's no fun hunting big deer that aren't there". But, The big deer are there in the ADK's, but as you know, it is a vast ,not easily accessed area, with low deer population. Many many thousands of acres get little to no hunting pressure.
My Tug Hill area gets tons of hunting pressure, damn ATV's running all over the place. Few deer have a chance to make it even to 2 1/2 years of age. Yearling bucks doing much of the breeding.I ask what would happen If A larger segment of the buck population were allowed to survive into their second year?
I wasn't around in 1951 but heard the same about that time period being the best from the old timers :) . We had a great run in the '80s also.
I agree with much of what you're saying and always appreciate your posts and perspective.
We are in 6J and what snow doesn't get dumped on Tug Hill lands on us. We are surrounded by hundreds/thousands of acres of State Land which is considered "Forever Wild" and off limits to logging.
Private landowners around us, and including us, are logging and have logging plans ...The markets over recent years have not helped us much as we have low quality product which is also in a difficult area to get to....This year we elected not to finish cutting about 180 acres because of the chip market.
I support letting 1.5 year old bucks go but don't begrudge a young person or someone "with a lot of experience" shoot one in the ADK's when deer sightings and especially buck sightings are often few and far between.
I personally had a great year in the ADK's this year in terms of sightings and let 2 x 2.5 year old bucks go before taking one at the end of the season.
Take care. Mike
my tag my deer your tag your deer.Hunting is not heading in a good direction.Its becoming the sport of kings AGAIN ,
" Antler Restrictions Work", work for whom? Not for me.I'll make the decision on what buck I kill based on a number of variables. I'm not going to wait for a deer that meets someone else's approval. I sometimes pass small bucks but sometimes I don't. I'll decide not anyone else.
Buy 3000 acres put in food plots high fence and charge $12000 for a 200 class buck like the Oneida Indian Nation does and you have the ability to control age structure, harvest and breeding. Most hunters in NY I believe hunt for meat not horns. If the DEC had not caved to the Insurance Companies there would be more deer as in the 80's. Tke old saying if you want meat shot a doe no longer works when the heard has been thinned as much as it has been. Antler restrictions is not the answer in NY, it is rebuild the herd.
Petcontain,You are correct. rebuilding the herd should be the priority. If meat hunters are hunting with AR's they will just kill a doe which will further reduce an already decimated herd. I used to see 5 to 10 deer a sitting years ago. now I see about 15 a year and that is archery and gun combined.
The land I hunt on now I use to see 14 to 20 in herds now 1 maybe 2.
I was just wondering if any of you land owners that support ar's would allow me to join you on your private land to hunt for a buck? I promise to not only abide be the state laws but to abide by your camp rules as well. If you would I would truly be grateful as I only own 10.62 acres and deer sightings are not what I would call plentiful. If you choose to not invite me that is ok too but don't tell me what I can shoot on my own land.
Me too what Silverback said
I don't understand you guys who are always saying, " don't tell me what I can shoot," ????? The state of NY already tells you what you can and cannot shoot, when and with what you can shoot, and how many you can shoot.
Squash,yes they do and one more thing you can't shoot is one more too many.
There are plenty of big bucks in NY. They take a lot of time, skill and luck to get an opportunity. If you AR folks think you're going to turn your back yard into Iowa with AR's you are out of your minds. What it comes down to is these folks are now bored shooting every spike horn they see, so now they mistakenly think the AR's will put a herd of 8 pointers behind their house. While at the same time depriving other hunters of the opportunities to shoot any buck they want, even though the pro-AR folks have enjoyed this for years. Hypocritical. AR's will drive people out of the sport.
The bill was only introduced in the senate, the house is not even considering it. No chance this year at all.
You can still manage a herd for numbers and have AR's. The biggest issue I see is guys whining about seeing few deer but then post "Well I finally put some meat in the freezer with a big old doe" Yeah she had two doe fawns with her but I let them walk. Stupidest statement in the world. If you really need to shoot a deer, shoot the doe fawn. You only kill one deer that way. I also don't know where a lot of you hunt but in my areas I see as many as 30 deer a sit and rarely do I see less then 8 or 10. It has been proven AR's help increase the deer numbers and also make for a healthier deer herd. Scooby
"Stupidest statement in the world. If you really need to shoot a deer, shoot the doe fawn "
So age structure only applies to bucks, I assume with less than 12 pts and a 24 inch inside spread.
Good to know.
So it's a good idea to shoot only the big bucks and let the spikes and 4 points do the breading?
swampbowman's Link
The differences in perspective here highlight the need that any restrictions enacted be on a WMU basis and not on a broad statewide or Northern / Southern Zone basis. The high number of deer in Scoobys area (Albany ?), or a hundred miles away in mine( Lake Plains), are very different than those in the ADKs. A law enforcement nightmare trying to figure out where a buck came from occasionally but the correct plan for herd management. Where I live antler restrictions aren't needed and neither is a one buck rule as hunters here don't kill enough deer to reach desired herd reduction levels.Lobby for what you think your hunting area needs but please don't lump us all in with you !
wow, I can't imagine seeing 8 to 10 deer on a sit. I did see 4 this year on one day but most days seeing no deer is more common. I average 1 deer sighting for every five outings and I'm seeing more than most on the property. We can't shoot a doe during archery unless you have a DMP, hunters self imposed rule. I get a DMP every 3rd year due to low numbers of permits given out. The big bucks are mostly nocturnal except for the occasional sighting or picture during early November as the rut heats up. More and more people are letting yearling walk according to DEC, voluntary is the best method.
Guys please study deer biology a bit. The doe contributes half of the genetic make up and a 4pt. passes on the same genes as a 12 pt. Also everyone should know that once past 2.5 years old bucks(does too) get harder to kill, so no those young bucks will breed no more then they normally would. I honestly believe most guys in NY do not know what a true rut really is because our herds in most places are a mess. Shawn
"A peculiar virtue in wildlife ethics is that the hunter ordinarily has no gallery to applaud or disapprove of his conduct. Whatever his acts, they are dictated by his own conscience, rather than by a mob of onlookers. It is difficult to exaggerate the importance of this fact." -Aldo Leopold
Too many different issues entering into this thread which makes it impossibly confusing. Sort of like trying to manage 9 or 10 wildly different WMUs to some sort of Hunter satisfaction. Impossible. In the big picture, if the DEC really wanted to sample how deer hunters state-wide think about AR then they could've taken a hell of a lot broader sample than they did. I could be wrong but I've heard that some of these so called "surveys" involved as little as 7,000 respondents. With maybe over a half million deer hunters in the state (guess), what credibility does a 7,000 sample have? Not sure how large the Cornell Univeraity or Sportsmens Council samples were but no matter. If they really wanted to sample, they've got access to every single deer hunter in the state in their electronic system and could ask the question of every Hunter during on-line or in person license renewal. "Yes", "no" or "no opinion" and the no opinions go in the "yes" column. In another vein I agree with Shawn.....you can't influence anything regarding genetics. I've read the controls at least half of the big antler genetics. If you could influence genetics in free ranging deer herds then why do the private ranches and QDM sorts of operations you see on T.V. (If you're deranged enough to watch them) practice culling or shooting cull bucks. Hell, they've been doing that for years....and they STILL HAVE CULL BUCKS which just proves it doesn't work. Another thing.....lets get our minds straight here. The DEC (in my opinion) is not interested in rebuilding the deer herds. We are, certainly, but I'm thinking their main interest is license revenues. Let's remember, when it comes to deer management, hunters ARE JUST ONE "STAKEHOLDER" as the DEC likes to say. The others are high end suburban homeowners who are having their shrubs eaten, insurance companies due to car-deer collisions, orchardists, other farmers, etc. beyond that, I'm kind of doubtful that hunters even rise beyond second or third in priority on that list. Voluntarily AR is fine if you've got large tracts, doing QDM and so are the neighbors but it won't work outside that box. I'd say I'd be okay with it if they did AR but I'm thinking that a lot fewer toes would be stepped on with a one buck rule. I realize that that would hurt guys in high deer density areas who have plenty of bucks and their herd can absorb a couple bucks per Hunter each season but I'm not sure hunters complaining about restrictions on what kind of buck they can shoot might be the same guys who want to shoot three each season. Might be worth trying it for a few years as a trial balloon.
I read elsewhere the AR change was dropped from the budget, so no changes.
Pat,when you say something should be done to improve deer hunting you are assuming everyone would be happier if they could shoot a big buck. That may be partially true but not necessarily. Perhaps qdm advocates should manage their own land as they see fit and leave the state regulations alone.
id be happy just seeing the amount of deer i did 15 years ago.to many people shooting too many doe.How many times have you heard someone say "I wasnt seeing anything so i shot the one doe i saw" Congrats Einsten! This will never be Ohio Iowa or Kentucky and before social media and Realtree Outdoors took over I never heard anyone complain and thats the DAMN TRUTH!!!!!!!!
if its true a higher percentage want them then pray tell why it has to be a mandatory enforcement as opposed to voluntary.certainly if 80% want them truly how much could the 20 % that dont hurt.Or are the numbers skewd or is it the 80% willpower
Pat in NY deer management seems to be driven by the insurance companies. Eliminate the herd so there are fewer car deer collisions.
Pat, Sorry I misunderstood your post. After reading your clarification I totally agree with you. Joe
I would think that with the DEC being so loathsome to most every hunter in the state that those same hunters would see it as their duty to manage the herd themselves. The hunter is the tool that the DEC uses to manage the population.That does not mean you must fill every tag they issue and kill every deer you see.Hunters are responsible for the herd reduction,imbalance between buck and doe and apparent lack of mature buck kills/sightings.........not the DEC. Everyone just seems to want to place blame on the DEC and other hunters who don't fit the Bone collector/Pro hunter on TV/"I only shoot Booners and Popes" mindset.....They did this wrong......They did that wrong......blah blah blah.
There is a saying out there.....Don't guide the guide.......I would guess it applies here, don't manage the management. Tax dollars are being spent on people to manage the herd statewide, they need to be replaced.
Tax dollars are also being spent on lazy, do nothing people who lay on the couch all day with thirteen kids running around them,statewide......they need to be replaced as well......what's your point? Replace management but the tool is the same...........hunters are responsible to manage the herd.This does not change no matter who is running the show.If someone is seeing less and less deer with each passing season but continues to fill every one of their tags or shoots young deer and crys that they can't shoot a giant.....the DEC is not to blame.Hunters need to take responsibility for themselves.Just because the DEC says so does not mean it is correct.
While all of this commenting may make one feel better, it does nothing to address the issues. Sadly, I'd bet that few if any of the posters here have contacted their state senator, legislator, NYS Conservation Council, sportsmen's clubs or anyone else that can begin to make a difference. Some of you will spend hours reading comments but won't pick up the phone to call the DEC and get them to commit to an official department answer that you can take action on, not his or her personal opinions. If you don't like the answer, everyone has a boss. Much easier to complain here on the internet and hope that someone else does the hard work so that antler restrictions, crossbows or coyote seasons get changed to your liking.
Get involved.
The minute I was made aware of this bill, I contacted my state senator and urged him to support it. As far as hunters sharing the blame for the mismanagement, I agree. But that ' s why taxpayers hire experts at the DEC, to properly manage the resource. IMO both parties have failed miserably.
I know this is a whole other can of worms BUT as far as antler restrictions go, wouldn't supplemental feeding or "baiting" help solve some of these problems? Of course it would cause others. But a few things: 1. Deer need proper nutrition to fulfill genetic potential. They won't grow larger antlers until they have the necessary nutrition to meet their daily metabolic needs. That is a huge component of the high dollar farms in other areas of the country. For me, that is the biggest drive to be able to feed deer. I'm not interested in sitting over a bait pile, but would not fault another for wanting to do so. 2. If people were allowed to bait then they would see more deer and if they were actively managing the herd they could pick and choose more readily which bucks to shoot. There would be less pressure to kill the first deer they see if that hunter cares about antler size. 3. Of course if this was allowed then in my opinion the number of tags given out should be discussed. However, it seems to be the general consensus the DEC wants to decrease the herd size. There is already a baiting approach on the Cornell lands and when I was going through the steps to join that program, the director commented it is not as easy as one thinks to kill deer over bait. They get smart after you shoot a few and sites need to be actively managed. Just for information sake, if you are interested in that program, I went to the meetings and was put off by the warnings about being ready to have arguments with neighboring landowners that did not approve of the program, the need to dress at the stand so as not to offend people using the property to walk dogs etc. with your camo, and conceal a kill properly when dragging it out. I understand the need for the program and those measures, but it just wasn't for me.
I also sent this as a letter to DEC, inspired by erict to do so. Enjoying the thread fellas.
I love reading all these posts. Some great comments here. Pat I could not agree with you more. You do not have to fill every tag that is given to you! That is why I think the one buck rule would do better than antler restrictions. If a hunter knew he could only shoot one buck he would be more selective and pass more younger age class bucks.
One buck rule support is not surprising from those who hunt several different states a year or from those who only hunt a few days a year in NY. Those of us who hunt deer on a daily basis here and live in high deer density areas just don't want it or need it.
I totally agree it depends where you live as far as the 2 buck limit. I would hate that where I live and hunt here in NY. I also try to hunt at least 2 other states a year and they both have one buck limits so 1 buck here may indeed make me and others real selective. AR's will help the herd though in areas where the deer density is low and also shooting a big cow doe just makes no sense to me in areas where the deer density is 5-8 deer per sq. mile, yet guys do it all the time. If you really need some deer meat shoot a little doe fawn but even then you are hurting yourself. I really hope more people get on board for AR's as I think once people see the results in a a few years, they will not only see more and bigger bucks but an increase in the overall herd as well. Shawn
Go read this same thread on the hunting NY forum and you will see why NY deer hunting is stuck in perpetual Mediocrity. I am convinced that NY hunters are among the lowest common denominators anywhere.