Kevin @ Wisconsin's Link
Rep. Adam Jarchow, R-Balsam Lake, and Sen. David Craig, R-Town of Vernon, are introducing bills to require game wardens to have a "reasonable suspicion" that a crime is being committed before they enter private lands.
Currently, under a legal precedent known as the "open fields doctrine," law enforcement may generally enter private land adjacent to public land without a warrant in their investigations.
I'm always surprised at the latitude that is given to game wardens.
And no...I'm not anti Warden and I completely support them.
What is reasonable suspicion? Does a neighbor draw up reasonable suspicion or is this a wild goose chase? The only people who should be able to enter a property without a warrant are fire fighters for the case of a emergency. Wardens have a lot of power other law enforcement don't have. This should not be the case.
So based upon the information provided to the warden about illegal baiting the warden had "cause" to enter private property and investigate the complaint. The belief that "wardens" have MORE power than other LEO's is BUNK - They must adhere to the same legal standards as any officer/deputy in the State. There is NOT some secret code for them to work by.
The marijuana growers and meth heads and conservation violators of Wisconsin would like you dbl lung -
It is a shame there is so little support for our wardens, and most law enforcement in this state
Tweed's Link
The link is an update.
http://www.rivernewsonline.com/main.asp?SectionID=6&SubSectionID=47&ArticleID=79143
The ignorance continues...
So if I don't want the police to willy nilly search my car is it because I'm hiding something? What about walking into my house and searching that, in the name if safety of course.... am I hiding something if I feel that is wrong? If baseless searches are OK, then why aren't people demanding roadside DUI check points, this weekend would be a great time to start, just set up outside any bar in the Northwoods.
"According to Stietz, he was minding his own business on his own property as the sun fell on the last day of deer season in 2012. Suddenly, he was approached by two armed men wearing blaze orange, whom he says did not clearly identify themselves as the DNR wardens they actually were.
Wardens Joseph Frost and Nick Webster - who were looking for illegal hunting activity after dark and who had entered the property after seeing a vehicle parked in a grassy area on the property - ordered Stietz to surrender his rifle.
Stietz, who had had significant trespass problems on his property, said he thought the wardens were the ones who were illegally hunting. He was out checking his fences and looking for vandalism, which had occurred before.
Now, with the men demanding his rifle, Stietz said he feared for his life. A scuffle followed as one warden and then both attempted to wrestle the rifle from him. After they seized the firearm, Stietz testified that he saw one warden reach for a handgun, prompting him to reach for his handgun. The second warden also drew his.
There was a stand-off - three men with handguns trained on each other, the court states - until one warden managed a radio call and deputies arrived and arrested Stietz."
Stietz is lucky he didn't get shot.
Yes I do have a reason. I don't want some fool that doesn't know the property stumbling around. It's not safe for him/her and yes I don't want them pushing deer off the land.
I made tremendous sacrifices to obtain my land. The 80 acres I own is attached to the home I live in. In order to do this, I had to buy a house in poor shape and move a few hundred miles. As is life, timing doesn't always work as we would hope and this endeavor was no different. You have to make things happen when the option presents its self. We sold our previous house before we could move into the "New" house. This meant moving my family 200 miles into temporary housing. I still worked 200 miles away so I needed to commute. On my days that I was home, 3 1/2 days of every 9, I had to clean the left overs of a hoarder enough that I could move my wife and 13 month old twin boys into the house. Then over the course of the next 2 1/2 years; I had to reroof the house, put on new siding, redo electric, plumbing, completely redo a bathroom due to leaking water, new floors, fix foundation, put up all kinds of new drywall, paint every inch of the house, some new windows and I'm sure some other stuff I'm forgetting. This all during my 3 1/2 days out of 9 that I was home from a 400 mile commute. I missed a better part of my kids lives for those 2 1/2 years. My marriage was strained and my mental health was horrible. There was a lot of doubt in those years as to whether or not we made a bad decision in chasing this dream of having a little land. I can easily say it was the hardest thing I have ever done in my life. I eventually got a job near home and things stabilized in life. I am proud of what we accomplished as a family and very protective of it. I take great offense when anyone says they think they should just he able to wander my property "just to make sure" I'm within the law. To me it is extremely disrespectful. We are hard working, law abiding people who busted our behinds for what we have. Being respected as such is not too much to ask.
First: Conservation Wardens are "Law Enforcement Officers" (LEO). I, as a Deputy Sheriff and Jim Bob the Conservation Warden both have the powers of arrest. We have different job responsibilities and Deputy Sheriff's in Wisconsin are "deputy" wardens. But clearly we are both Law Enforcement Officers (LEO).
Secondly: And because we are LEO - we ALL adhere to the same rules of law. There is no difference!!! Wardens do NOT have any MORE authority than a Deputy Sheriff and visa versa. Both adhere...to the same...rules of law.
Years ago when I first came on as a police officer, State Troopers were "Traffic Officers" and by Statue they had no authority to act outside the scope of "traffic"...
Thank the Lord and Greyhound, those days are long gone and they now...just like Deputy Sheriff's and Conservation Wardens, abide by the same rules of law. Different job responsibilities....
Funny, even today...now less than more, but on occasion... a person calls the Sheriff's Office because they see a State Trooper with someone pulled over off the Interstate! - Old habits die hard for some... "Arnt they only supposed to be on the Interstate?" "There out on Highway 54"....Well ma'am if 54 is in Wisconsin, which it is, were all good... because they are the "State" patrol!
In closing - NO - wardens have no more authority than a Village Cop, a Township Officer or a City Police Officer or a Deputy Sheriff.
As for the warden he was doing his job but it still hits a nerve with me. As a person in law enforcement myself, a lot of time could be saved if we had the same power.
Smokey....the warden killed a doe off my property that late bow season. It was on my property so it was one of my does. Does that answer your question???
It caused quite a stir on Bowsite and generated a lot of banter about law enforcement and their right to enter posted [private property] under what is commonly referred to the "Open Fields Doctrine" - The bill introduced would limit Conservation Wardens from entering private property under the doctrine - that bill was originally shot down.
I've heard nothing else about it...
State of Wisconsin vs. Robert Joseph Stietz is still an open case. The District Attorney is going ahead and will re-try STIETZ as he is currently out on a 5,000 signature bond. He is restricted from possessing a handgun while on bond.
Should be an interesting trial!!
I have never had this happen to me. But I have heard from a few that have. They were innocent of all suspected wrong doings. But that didn't make the ruined hunt any better. Nor did it bring the deer back to the sanctuary areas that the warden stomped through. The neighbors sure appreciated that state sponsored deer drive though. Imagine that it was the same neighbors that called in the "illegal act" my buddy was doing. The neighbors even told the warden where to "catch" him so that the warden would walk through said sanctuary and kick the deer out to these fine citizens. But yeah, wardens should be able to just walk in on any property from someone filing a tip/complaint. NOT!!!
No "golden goose" for landowners or those who hunt "private property" - What's good for the goose is good for the ganger!! Check everyone you possible can. With a single warden or two wardens in some counties...your chance of being checked is very low...however there's that little voice in your head ..."what if a warden would show up"? Keeping HONEST people HONEST!
Retro says: " I didn't realize it would be a life changing event if a warden walked on someone's land and spooked "their buck". Having a bunch of "spooked bucks" running around the state is indeed a steep price to pay for trying to protect the states natural resources..... "
Thank you Retro - could not have said it better myself!
Your wrong - different job responsibilities - but not MORE authority!! Game laws are no different than any other laws in Wisconsin. ANY law including burglary - Trespass too Dwelling - Obstructing - is "open" to interruption. Just because it's NOT a "game law" does NOT mean it is NOT open to interpretation.
Again, Conservation Wardens are "Law Enforcement Officers" (LEO) - No difference - they just enforce and investigate different crimes and incidents - have the same authority - no more - no less.
That's why we have a Criminal Court System.
What I as a law enforcement officer might feel is a violation of the law due to MY INTERUPTATION may be spot on or different from the Courts. The Court has the final say in interrupting the laws!!
When you "sign" or "apply and granted a WDNR permit" and are granted your taxidermy license Franklin - you are authorizing your place of business to be open to inspection 24/7. You agree to that by your payment of the permit and signature - read the small print! When you authorize or allow someone to do those things - inspection - enter your business place - you voluntarily give up those rights! I, as a Deputy Sheriff by State Statue can perform the same inspection that any Warden can as I am by Statue a "Deputy Warden". Neither me or my fellow LEO - Game Warden have anymore authority than the other.
You don't need "probable cause" or a "search warrant" when people voluntarily give up the rights of "search and seizure" - it's called "Consent to Search". And both you and I do it when we apply for and our granted our respectful permits by the WDNR!
I am a licensed falconer - I hold a license issued to me by the State of Wisconsin. By signing that application and paying my permit fees I am VOLUNTARILY agreeing to allow law enforcement ( and or "their agents")to enter my property and residence to inspect anything that may do with the falconry. I GAVE UP MY RIGHTS and so did you!
Bad cases are bad cases, and are not prosecuted and thrown out,,,, Again go explain your concerns to your local district attorney office, and they will be happy to address any concerns,,,,, than you will know for fact
Good evening! My name is amy, how may I help you? Dennis: I was told that the possession of a Wi.hunting license forfeits the rights of persons to be secure in theie homes (search and seizure). Hard to believe.... Amy: Yes, I can certainly see how that is hard to belive. I can assure you that that is not the case when in posession of a hunting license. May I ask where or by whom you were told that? Dennis: Online by a deputy from Eau Claire. His contention is that when you purchase a license you voluntarily give up the right to insist on a warrant to search a home. Amy: Ok. Yes, online sources can sometimes be non credible. Our wardens do not enter homes unless they have proof of probable cause (for example, being forwarded a tip from our violation hotline) but they may only ask questions. The law enforcment aspect is not something I am famliar with enough but if you'd like to know more information I'd be happy to give you a warden's phone number. However, rest assured being in posession of a hunting license does not make you forfeit your rights for security.
Secondly, I never said nor did I ever imply that: "I was told that the possession of a Wi.hunting license forfeits the rights of persons to be secure in theie homes (search and seizure). Hard to believe"
Yeah Lame it is "hard to believe" because IT CANNOT BE DONE!!! Hello?
Where you came up with that is beyond me, I re-read my post and have no clue how you came up with that. Really?
So NO - NO one gives up the "right" to have their home/business place searched based on a hunting/fishing license. Because you have a hunting or fishing license it permits you to do just that and you surrender nothing other than your license fee.
What I did state and I will again, is that when you receive a "permit" from the WDNR like a "Taxidermy license" "Falconry permit" or other types.
Because I have a "Falconry Permit" I agree to have my place open to inspection by WDNR wardens or their agents.
Now, if you get a "landowner waterway permit"...of course you don't give up any rights. But when animals are confined alive or dead - the government wants inspection rights.
Like I told Franklin ...read the small print... I certainly hopes this clears this up for you!
No RJN - I cannot enter your house and look for violations for no reason. Correct!
However - I can enter your home if the following conditions are met:
A. Warrant B. Exigent Circumstances C. Consent D. Fleeing Felon E. Community Caretaker Exemption
AND NO - RJN - ANY law enforcement Officer in the State of Wisconsin can enter your property or the property of another under the "Open Fields Doctrine" - NOT just wardens. Sheriff's deputies most often do this in cases of marijuana/drug enforcement.
So NO again - Wardens have no more authority than any other law enforcement officer.
Like ground hunter suggested - Stop at the DA's Office for a Q&A if you don't take my word for it. Let me know how that plays out for ya!
Shoot straight!
WTF? Hillary you have lost your mind!
Maybe we should just have them out in the field when there arent any hunting seasons. During the hunting season, we should have them all at the state parks raking leaves and shoveling snow.......
I also am one who feels private land is private and wardens should have a reason for entering private land they weren't invited on and that reason should be something more than just looking around, or seeing a vehicle parked on the grass....? I don't feel police officers should be able to wander into someone's living room for no reason either.
Anyway good thread, parts of it are better than the funny pages. :-)
And Retro - outstanding post!
Camp2dukes - In reality, although I believe it's a good argument - just because private property holds "natural resources" is NOT the reason a warden or a deputy sheriff can enter your private property.
The courts have ruled long ago that "open fields" or the "back forty" has what is referred to as an "a diminished expectancy to privacy". This has to do directly with what is commonly referred to as "curtilage".
The court has ruled that we/you have a diminished expectancy on the "back forty" and because of this, it is open to law enforcement.
"Curtilage" can be defined as the "immediate" area around one's home, where a reasonable person would expect privacy. Say, like a fenced in back yard, would be a good example. It can be the immediate area around ones home. Inside the curtilage, one would commonly need a warrant by the Court to enter. There are exceptions, but most cases would require a warrant.
Now, there has been some dissention on your driveway and is that "protected"? Reason being are not driveways open to the public? Delivery drivers, postal workers, Jehovah Witness's, candidate's campaigning, girl scouts selling cookies, all use the driveway. So the courts "may" rule slightly different here.
Homes are, as we all know, different and I have explained the examples above as to when a peace officer or how he/she may enter a private residence.
So, there you have it Camp2dukes, the reason law enforcement can inspect/enter private lands. You may like it, you may dislike it....
As far as your argument about "safety" - Retro answered that well.
Lame - Not only did you not get the right County, ya misunderstood my entire post and THEN to add insult to injury....ya contacted the WDNR over your misunderstanding. What the heck were ya thinking man? I apologize if I sound mean - not my intent.
Also, Lame, in Wisconsin there has never been in my adult life "volunteer" wardens in this State. Fact is, this is the first time I ever heard of such a thing. There has been "Special" or "Deputy" Wardens but never a volunteer. "Special" and/or "Deputy" wardens are law enforcement officers, certified by the State as LEO. They have their recruit training/certification and powers of arrests.
Volunteers are just that .... citizen's volunteering and no way our WDNR would ever allow for that - citizens acting as "volunteer wardens"...I cry foul.
