kellyharris's Link
Your thoughts?
Don't new license come out And available August 1
Don't new license come out And available August 1
It just seems to me, an increase is / was warranted and perhaps overdue for both non-residents and residents.
HOWEVER ,
If I wish to hunt out of state, and that state charges X dollars for a "Non-Resident Licence" then the hunter travelling to Ohio, to hunt, should have to pay the same license fee ($) his or her state charges me as a Non-Resident to for a hunting licence, deer tag. etc.
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That would only be true if Ohio (ODNR) wanted a tit-for-tat reciprocal pricing structure which is impractical considering all the various states hunters come to Ohio from. I don't think ANY state has direct reciprocal pricing for nonresidents. It's one price for any/all nonresidents. If that's not the case, I'll willingly stand corrected.
The other thing to consider is that Ohio (ODNR) may have a goal of increasing revenues while remaining one of the most attractive destination states for nonresident deer hunters. In other words, the state may want to attract as many nonresident hunters as possible and intends to do that by keeping license and tag fees cheaper than other destinations.
This isn't argumentative...just posing another viewpoint or take on the issue.
Thank you for a different point of view.
Not looking for an argument either. Just a different perspective from here.
I for one do not believe it is impractical to administer a reciprocal fee when it would merely require a check of a drivers license to correlate cost relative to that state's hunting licence fee's. * (dr's license already a requirement to obtain hunting license)
Point being, if I wish to hunt in another state regardless of location in the USA my license fee's are generally and substantially more costly to me than Ohio, will now charge NR's including the new increase.
I was hoping to point out the inequity that exist's with Ohio's, NR fee's vs other states NR fee's. This is a point of view I have held for a very long time.
I believe it is the Ohio, ODNR's, loss ($$$$) as it is our's, as it relate's to revenue for wildlife management .
The "tit for tat" hasn't stopped me or others from hunting another state if I wish to hunt that state and I for one do not believe it will stop NR's from coming to Ohio, to hunt.
GO BUCK's :^}
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If the state's goals are to keep attracting a large number of NRs, a big fee increase may be a negative...especially if the ODNR is looking at this from a competitive perspective. I'm 100% sure our state ODNR views NRs as a desirable customer they want to attract and keep. Other states probably feel the same way. There is competition for the dollar.
I'll go out on a limb and say it's highly unlikely we'll ever see Ohio implement a fee-matching license/tag system for NRs. The reasons are many but I think the main one is that our ODNR sees lower fees (comparatively) as an inducement for more NR hunters to show up and kill more deer.
Point well taken regarding the ODNR's , desire to reduce the deer herd into what they (ODNR) feel is a manageable herd, They certainly appear to be ambitious in their efforts.
I guess I just find it inequitable for another state to charge a substantially higher NR fee for hunting privileges to Ohioans, while Ohio's, ODNR, may be fearful of losing NR's to hunt Ohio.
IMHO, the only thing that will decrease NR's from hunting Ohio, is a significant decrease in the deer herd. (i.e. Penn.)
Personally I do not have any issue with the new increase in hunting fee's. They are still a bargain.
GO BUCKS
:^}
I suppose another talking point is what happens if we let other state's NR prices drive our prices in Ohio. Maybe a price escalation war? I don't know. But if a NR's ability to afford an expensive tag is the main qualifier for hunting in Ohio, it seems we'll be attracting that type hunter and gradually eliminating the everyday guy from a neighbor state. If it's mainly well-heeled NRs headed in, will that in turn promote NR land-buying, large-scale leasing and/or outfitting? I honestly don't know that answer, but it probably makes sense to look at the possible ramifications of making our Ohio hunting much costlier to NRs.
Great thread.
Point's of conversation,
I do not feel any State's DNR, is / would be interested in or promoting an escalating price war over NR fee's.
Ohio, attracts all types of NR's to hunt Ohio. IMHO, not because of costs but for the quality of the deer herd.
The process of hunting land purchase, lease, outfitting etc. by resident and NR's alike has been in motion for some time. (yrs) We cannot turn back this clock.
As you, I have hunted other states, and though I may find the fee's of that state justifiable for the game I have hunted. It did however leave me with a feeling of being a bit uneasy knowing the resident of that state can come to Ohio, to hunt at a very low cost when this very hunter (s) may have voiced and lobbied for higher NR fees.
The elimination of, or restriction of NR's coming to hunt Ohio, is not my thought or ambition. I wish there were more opportunities for people to able to hunt, enjoy the out of doors, particularly young folks.
This said,
I do feel we can have a more equitable / even hunting field :^} for the Ohio, hunter.
GO BUCKS !
:^}
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What I think will happen with Ohio's NR increases is this: Fewer nearby NRs will opt to buy a license and tag. These are the guys who primarily like to hunt their home state and area, but come to Ohio for an extra hunting opportunity. Border-hoppers let's call them. They might run here from WV, KY, IN, MI, PA etc for a few days of hunting. At some point the license/tag cost hits a level where they'll take their money and spend it elsewhere or on gear...but not here in Ohio. The dedicated NRs who view Ohio as their prime destination will keep coming...as long as they have the funds.
Your points are well taken, especially the non-resident hunter not being very welcome or held in disfavor in some states. :^}
As with all things commercial it is price and demand.
I doubt the influx of NR hunters to western states and Alaska, has or will diminish due to increased fee's. Sure some "side tags" may not be desirable due to cost but their primary reason to hunt a specific game species will not change.
The desire to hunt Ohio, regardless of fee's will not diminish until the deer herd does. To many NR's are looking for an opportunity to harvest a buck their state does not provide.
When other states become more recognizable for the harvest of "Big Bucks" along with a decline of our herd, then and only then will Ohio's, NR hunter look elsewhere as a hunting destination.
A very enjoyable thread
GO BUCKS
:^}
I really wish Ohio would go to the same system as Iowa as far as tags go. Limit the ever growing non res hunting pressure and charge more money for what is a grossly underpriced tag.
I hunted Illinois in the mid -late 90s and it was awesome. What they have going on now is polar opposite. Their management plan is a disaster. My hope is that the buckeye state isn't on the same path...
No hard feelings, just saying, there is a balance to be struck. Just because Iowa or Illinois in my opinion has their priorities all jacked up doesn't make it right for Ohio. Ohio NR licenses were the steal of the century up until the mid 2000's, when the overharvest of does wrecked the herd, not some influx of NR. Like I said, I've been to OH 7 times I can count and shot 2 bucks, both good ones, and not a single doe. I don't think it's nonresidents wrecking the herd. If they want a gradual increase, fine, but I think the magnitude of the increase is what's causing such an outcry.
Personally the bigger factor is that the fishing licenses are due for a large increase as well because I do fish the Western Basin every year, and I can't just pull up shop and go to WV for that obviously.
When you have a single income and a young family, every line item in the budget gets scrutiny. Darn near doubling the cost of my DIY adventures hurts. These increases don't hurt the guys my old man's age who are flocking to OH on outfitted hunts, what's another couple hundred bucks to those guys? Yeah, that is sort of a snowflakey basis for argument, but it's speaking to the depressingly narcissistic pursuit of book entries that hunting has become. It's no longer about meeting my brother, an Ohio resident, and having a good week together for a reasonable price. It's about jacking the price up and seeing how much the guy chasing book entries is willing to pay. The family tradition aspect of hunting has been pissed all over. That underlying aspect of it is what's sickening.
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We all might as well grasp this: Ohio IS going to kill enough (as in a lot of) deer to manage the population and keep it down. It's what farmers and the farm bureau want. It's what the insurance industry wants. It's what a lot of motorists and homeowners want. It may not be what all hunters want. The state wants to attract a LOT of nonresidents and wants them to spend money here plus kill deer. Selling licenses and tags to both nonresident and resident hunters is a huge part of the ODNR's revenue, and the flow of money isn't going to be interrupted. I don't foresee nonresidents being held hostage for very large tag fees. Increases yes....and the hunting will continue.
The guys who think or wish Ohio will manage the deer herd primarily to produce stupendous hunting and great big-buck hunting are going to be disappointed. Ohio deer are going to be pressured and shot as the state will never allow the herd to bulge toward or above 800,000 as it did a good many years back. I'm personally in favor of a lower deer population and have never made a secret of that. Maybe part of it is the 4 deer we've killed with vehicles (most recent back in June by me) and the hundreds we've almost hit but avoided by skill or luck.
http://wildlife.ohiodnr.gov/hunting-trapping-and-shooting-sports/hunting-trapping-regulations/licenses-and-permits
From what I can see there is no immediate increase in NR license or permit fees coming.
Reguarding the reciprical licence pricing. I do not think that would work. In many ways it could attract more hunters. Going by Vermonts nr licence fees I would be able to buy a nr ohio archery licence for $75. If i wanted to gun hunt it would be an additional $100. The ODNR would take a loss from some of these northern states.
No doe killed unless by youth worked well for us. It only takes 2-3 years of this mentality to see your herd bounce back.
We have not talked about doe harvest this year but I am sure this will be the same as last year of only fill county tag amount per member and that includes guest. So in essence my county allows 3 deer. I can elect to take 3 doe or 1 buck and 2 doe. Well we said Ok 1 doe per lease member and your guest can take 1 doe. If you have guest A take a doe then no more doe for Guest B,C,D etc. We have not put a limit on bucks but our charter says if you kill a buck you must mount it. That excludes youth or adults who have never killed a buck before.
I think our county went to a 2 deer tag, perhaps 3?
If we do it will be one doe per lease member.
As to your statement about Ohio taking a loss from the northern states? I doubt we see a great abundance of hunters from Vermont.
I completely believe those guys who are seeing fewer deer and shooting fewer does. Some counties and certain properties (especially public hunting) have much fewer available deer. On the flip side there are still counties and properties with excess...and I should capitalize that...deer. My neighbor is a farmer and township trustee. We were chatting the other evening and he asked me if I was going to hunt his land. Then he showed me a cell picture of his back field with about 22 does and fawns in it. We laughed and I told him the same thing is happening for me on my farm. It is now common to see deer out moving here all day long. Additionally, my other neighbor just leased his hunting rights to a group of guys from New Jersey and they are apparently busy installing a bunch of automatic feeders and cell-connected game cameras. That's a serious investment by nonresident hunters.
Every year I try to help guys from MI, IN and other surrounding states find access to good deer hunting. The bottom line here where I own land is that our deer population is growing by most accounts and both resident and nonresident hunters are not taking enough to lower the numbers.
If a Vermonter, wishes to come here to hunt "for meat" the $1,000. oo example given is an apple to grape example.
Unless the "Vermont Hunter" desires very expensive meat I doubt very seriously we would have too many "Vermont Hunter's" coming here to hunt if the NR fee were $1,000.00
However when you / we look at some other states NR fees (central mid-west to western states) as an example I ask, is it fair to the Ohio, hunter who wishes to hunt that particular state. (inc. Vermont) to pay a much higher NR fee in most states whereas the State of Ohio, charges much less for NR's to hunt ?
The best part about a reciprocal NR fee is,
There is a level hunting field for all. $$$$
GO BUCKS :^}
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Serious question: How does raising nonresident fees in Ohio benefit Ohioans?...considering the implication that it's currently not "fair" for Ohio hunters to pay more in another state? Wouldn't such increases simply be a feel-good (to a few) measure which generates more money to be fodder for the state? Where is the direct benefit? I'm really curious now. Trying to figure how dramatically raising NR prices for my out-of-state hunting friends makes things better for me as a resident and a deer hunter.
Wouldn't you better help Ohio hunters (paying higher fees) by convincing those states to lower their prices? Driving hunting costs up....or down. Which do you prefer? The higher the costs for nonresidents to hunt in any state, the more it becomes about money, affordability and restricted (by income) opportunities. Ultimately the lower income hunters are the ones who would lose out, while those with disposable income would not be deterred.
(edit to add:) The point being this would likely only help Ohio propagate what so many already rail against, which is NRs with deeper pockets, more outfitters, more (and pricier) leasing, exclusive hunting rights, and a tendency to reward money...while further reducing opportunities for those who can't or won't spend serious money for great deer hunting, and that probably includes many residents. The net effect very well could be the opposite of a level playing field if you take the time to see where it leads.
;-)
Since you are really curious now,
Personally I do prefer a reciprocal agreement for hunting fee's. A more level field for the Ohio, hunter. The opportunity for an Ohio, hunter to enjoy his or her hunt in another state for equal money. If State A charges $300.00 for licence and fees then what is the issue with a NR hunter from State A, paying 300.00 in licence and fee's to hunt Ohio. Why is there something wrong / issue with this position ?
In my opinion this would generate more money for the ODNR to provide better management for / of land and enforcement of existing regulations.
I will ask you, do you seriously believe other state's are willing to lower their licence fee's for NR's or Resident's ? We, you and I along with all other hunter's combined could contact / meet with our respective DNR's regarding lowering hunting fee's (esp NR) without receiving any success. IMHO a hopeless endeavor.
The concern for holding prices down is admirable but long past for all of us, as with most things "that cat left the bag a long time ago".
Some would call it progress. :^{
Kevin,
No where have I championed or promoted an increase of fee's for the Resident Hunter in Ohio. The opportunity to hunt Ohio, for all Ohioan's, is paramount and should be provided as cheaply as possible.
This said, with our love of bow hunting and the passion we have, changes become hard to accept.
* Most mid and western states started the higher NR fee's due to immense pressure from the resident hunter's who lobbied for the substantially higher NR fee's.
** I do not wish this post to be argumentative it is just a different point of view
*** Respectful of your position regarding "the opposite of a level playing field" I just happen to reside in another camp. ;^}
GO BUCKS
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Because it provides no justification for the raise. It's just charging them more because their state costs us more. If it accomplishes something which is provably positive...that might be different. So far the only thing it seems likely to do is bring in more money for ODNR but even our conservative governor doesn't think higher fees are the way to solve a budget issue.
It also ignores the fact that....if Ohio really wants to be a magnet for NR deer hunters... the state has a reason NOT to seriously raise NR fees or go with reciprocity. Lower NR fees = better value = more NR hunters who buy everything from licenses to food to lodging to fuel...and much more. If more deer are killed it may be viewed as a very good thing by a lot of people who live here and vote here....although certainly a segment of hunters won't agree. They need to remember the ODNR is charged with managing wildlife for all Ohioans...not just hunters...and that's what they do.
There will be arguments that raising fees won't deter NR hunters but it will on the low end of the income scale. What also WILL happen is the better-heeled hunters will keep paying and showing up. When guys take vacation to travel and hunt...spend $500 or more to hunt a buck...they'll darn sure spend more of their disposable income to employ outfitters or seek exclusive hunting situations. You'll actually promote a non-level and two-tiered hunting field. Residents hunting on the cheap and NRs paying vastly more while trying to lock up the best hunting opportunities possible. They won't be here to shoot does when prices go up severely.
Ultimately....raising prices here in response to higher prices elsewhere is essentially a price war going the wrong way for sportsmen. There's no real fairness in that....even if it's claimed.
All this is offered in the spirit of discussion and understanding. Thanks buc i ......
This said, perhaps you can explain why it is OK for other states to have / charge higher NR fee's than it is for Ohio, to charge the same fee ? Your point of a price war being considered, I do not believe other states give a hoot about what Ohio, charges for NR fee's. Should they receive any complaint (s) they will merely tell their hunter's , we have no control over what Ohio does !
The question begs,
IF and it is a big IF, the other states charge more money for NR hunting the question is, do they (other states) recognize a benefit to their state DNR's and hunting population and outdoor programs more than Ohio ? Apparently the ODNR, is attempting to catch up to these other states with an increase in the NR fee's.
The other side of the big IF is, does Ohio, stand behind or ahead in the issue of NR fee ?
IF the issue was / is to attract more NR's to hunt Ohio, to spend more money thus supporting the local economies, and to better "manage the deer herd" I would be in the opinion that a REDUCTION of NR fee's would be of greater benefit. JMHO
Enjoying this discussion. I was unaware GOV. K, is a hunter :^}
GO BUCKS
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We've got plenty of coyotes. What we don't have is a hunting vehicle parked on every wide spot or at most farm gates. Almost nobody comes knocking on my or my neighbor's doors to ask about hunting. Truth: I've been bowhunting deer here since the late 1970's and I still have never had another hunter walk past my treestand. That's many thousands of hours spent hunting with little or no competition. It amazes me. It's like the hordes of hunters from the '80s and '90s dried up and left. Shotgun opener used to sound like a trap shoot. Now I hear a few scattered shots and one every now and then. I know I used to hear at least 10 shots per hour in prime time. Some days I hear NO shots even though I live amongst the deer.
I haven't checked deer limits this year. I live 2.5 miles from Scioto county and 9 miles from Pike county. Both recently had 3 deer limits while Jackson was at 2 deer. I get it...the county line is arbitrary. But still....we had so many deer that ODNR sent a wildlife officer out one evening to evaluate. He saw the damage and he saw the loads of deer. He wrote us a number of deer damage control permits on the spot. Believe it or not, the deer numbers have not dropped an iota in the areas of the county I frequent. I've got a client near Wellston who commonly sees 30-40 deer in the fields near his house. They get hunted, but how do you get control of that many deer? How do you get that many deer around in the first place?
And this takes me back full-circle to believing the ODNR sees every NR as a customer they want to attract. They pay to hunt here and they want to kill deer. ODNR has a mandate to keep deer numbers under control...probably lower than some hunters like. The NR helps achieve the harvest numbers wanted. They put money into our economy....our residents do benefit from that. A drastic fee increase is discouraging for some and I still think Ohio wants to encourage NR hunters by keeping fees lower than other states competing for the NR dollar....and deer kill.
Regarding NR hunters I am not supporting any specific position cause I realize that conditions very from one area to another. We are in Coshocton County which is a big draw for NRs looking for a big buck. An outfitter has moved into the area. He controls about 6,000 acres. He wants his hunters to see a lot of deer so he has all but stopped the harvest of does on that property. I know that he has spoken with the wildlife officer about a reduction in permits to help increase the population. I am concerned that we may have trouble with too many does in the future. The outfitter is a nice guy and I hope that if the population gets too high he will help with the doe kill. Of course his hunters are from out of state. I doubt that the price of NR tags would have any impact one way or another on our situation.
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I've helped a LOT of nonresidents come here and find hunting. I want them to be successful. I want fewer deer right here where I live but a family and property can only tolerate so much hunting in a year. I killed a deer with my truck in June. A week later a doe nearly ran into the side of my Harley...missed me by a foot or two. That happened 1/4 mile from my driveway. This morning there were 7 deer milling around my parking area and work equipment....3 were fawns. It never ends. I don't like it but the best remedy seems to be killing as many deer as legally possible here.
