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Crossbows in NM?
Just a heads up, it looks like the Game Commission will be taking up a discussion on whether or not to allow additional crossbow use in the archery seasons. Background can be found in the June 22nd meeting minutes.
Thanks. They are already legal for any weapon seasons and muzzle loader seasons.
Apparently NM is where the crossgun people are spending their money this year. Good luck. chip-chip-chip
Finally?! You think the draw odds are bad for archery hunts now, wait until all the rifle hunters pick up Xbows and start applying :o(
With Xbows like Ravin advertising 100-yard groups, success rates will skyrocket and tag numbers will be cut for double-whammy of plummeting draw odds for archery.
Very, very bad thing for bowhunters IMO.
Totally fine to use them during muzzle & rifle seasons. But hardly anybody does because nobody picks up an xbow for the "romance" of shooting a primitive weapon. They pick it up for one reason: to hunt in bow seasons without having to be a bowhunter/archer. They are lazy. An extremly few minority do it becuase of injury or health. While I'm sympathetic in those cases, IMO even that should not be allowed.
I may not have the ability to complete a marathon. The olympic rules don't allow me to use a motor scooter just because I want to participate. There's nothing taht says that everyone should be able to do everything. It's called life.
Crossbows should not be allowed during regular archery hunts. I don't care if you can't draw your bow for WHAT EVER reason, that is why there is muzzle loader and rifle hunts! If you drew a tag and now have a bad shoulder , its life and its not always fare , but if you cannot draw your bow , in my opinion you have just run into some unfortunate circumstances, but thats a you problem. Im sick and tired of all the people wanting to hunt archery season with crossbows! Its just like the mobility impaired certifications , so many people abuse this, they go to thier doctor and basically lie, get the cert signed and now they get to apply for MI hunts when they are not MI Hunters....I know a guy 35 years olds who has planter fasiatus (spelling is off) and got his MI signed.My dad is 68 , has had 3 back surgeries and a hip surgery....Its total bull crapp the abuse and dishonesty among outdoorsman....Sorry about my rant but Im sick of buttholess who cheat the system to get tags!
I couldn't agree more, cross bows have no place in archery hunts, it's just not archery!
I have one for our daughter. She used it for antelope (during a rifle season) and turkeys (during any weapon season). It was a way to bridge the gap when she wasn't thrilled with firing a rifle even with ear muffs and no way ready to use a bow.
Consequently I shot it to get it sighted in, etc. It's a solid brand name and good quality. But honestly it's a PITA to hunt with. It's heavy, unweildy, impossible to cock or reload quickly. Zero advantages over a bow EXCEPT that anyone (daughter is case in point) can pick it up and be deadly immediatly.
Nobody uses an Xbow because it's "fun", "challenging", etc. They were invented (or rather reinvented in the modern era) solely to be used during archery season by people too lazy to learn how to shoot a bow (which, face it, given modern technology of bows is not very difficult to master).
People looked at the typically better odds of drawing archery tags and thought "hmmm. how can I get me a piece of that?" Xbow manufacturers pushed like mad because getting them into archery season means more sales.
Places back east where you can shoot 5-10 deer, the Xbow isn't yet having a huge adverse impact, but out west where tags are extremely hard to come by it's going to be felt immediately.
Maybe we can avoid the mess by going back to the system where you have to make all 3 hunt choices the same weapon? That would greatly reduce the number of dedicated Xbow "hunters" because at heart they're mostly rifle hunters. That list a muzzle choice because those tags are a little easier to draw and thanks to modern 500-yard muzzle guns it's the same as a rifle (almost nobody "romantically" chooses to use an actual Kentucky Musket anymore do they?). Then they put a bow tag 3rd choice because those are still easier to draw. Those are the guys you see in the archery shop a few weeks (or less) before archery season buying archery tackle "because they drew a tag".
There used to be at least some merit in the argument that Xbows were a short range weapon BEFORE Ravin's new Xbow that is literally advertised as "Meet your new rifle" with 100-yard accuracy. Plenty of other companies will follow suit with that technology and accuracy. We need to put our foot down somewhere.
Oh, sorry. Got distracted and must've hit submit before I proofread.
Finally!! A topic to yap about besides LO tags, FOC, and mechanical broadhead threads.
Same 'ol arguement - crossbows have no place in archery. Next...
Agree with HDE post 100%. On this site crossbows are a negative idea for sure. I'm all against crossbows during Sept but this same topic on other sites will all in for them. Just depends which side of the string your on.
The people who prefer their string to be vertical will have to work together and get involved in this issue to make sure that we keep rifle-bows out of archery season.
The whole problem is the commission wants to make it "easier" for women and youth to be able to hunt. They are not going to increase any tags. So they are just going to make draw odds go down for everybody. My take is let those who want to hunt be able to hunt how they want to. We have a primitive muzzle loader hunt for those who want open sights, no inlines, round balls with patches ,etc.. So make a cross bow only hunt by taking a unit like 34 where they added 900? cow tags and have a cross bow only hunt for antler less elk. See how willing they are to hunt without being able to kill a bull elk. I will shoot a cow elk no problem but I won't do it with a crossbow.
Next Commissioner Meeting is in Albq. at the Pyramid on Aug. 24th. I believe. Time to start making our voices heard.
But I thought the lottery system was the most fair? Same chance for all, right...?
Yes.....especially without BP or PP. The whole thing I got from reading the minutes was women and kids have a hard time pulling back a vertical bow, can't shoot a rifle or ML so with crossbows they can enter the draw. Well they could do that right now under any weapon or ML hunt. Never mind my daughters were shooting a .50 ML for elk at 10 years old, shooting my .270 Win. and 20 gauge for turkey at 11.
Whatever it takes to generate revenue. It's not about increasing opportunity...
I suppose that is why some states have an age restriction. I can see the wisdom in that, not that I agree with it.
IMO the women and kids thing doesn't hold water, every bow manufacturer makes bows that work for just about any man woman or child and if you can't pull one back then one needs to practice and build the muscles to make them efficient with their bow. The effort it takes to learn something is slowly slipping away from society!
"I don't want to put forth the effort and I want to be subsidized with something that pacifies my need to be instantly gratified"
It's enough to make me want to puke
78cj5 captured my thoughts exactly. They want to add the number of people applying for the same amount of tags?
I will admit, I know very little about X Bows. I have never shot a X Bow. Aren't the shooting weights 125-150 lbs? Maybe I am off base, but how does the energy put into cocking differ from a compound? I realize the cocking process offers some leverage. But the wheels on a compound offer a mechanical advantage also.
How does the argument to aid women and children hold water? (Unless someone else cocks the X Bow for them)?
Didn't follow all of your thoughts Z Barebow, but yes, in my case with daughter, I cock the Xbow for her. No way she could do it on her own. However, some of the Xbows available can be cocked with ratchet style crank and even air, so can be cocked by anybody.
Xbows are 150+lb draw weight. They are all but impossible to cock by hand. Using some sort of pulley style rope device that reduces the effort is the way they are cocked.
Is there some way we can reach them by letter, or something to state our opinion on it?
Giving away my age but, I recall many of the same arguments when compounds came along. For the record I have and shoot both trad and a compound.
Going to be interesting to see the outcome. If it goes through well fund out real quick if it was to benefit women and youth. I doubt it think they're just using women and youth as leverage. My son is 13 and is doing a archery elk hunt this September. It will be a bummer to see all the x bows during Sept for sure.
Got to thinking I know of a individual at the top in g&f who hasn't drawn her rifle elk tag.
Thanks Carl. Sorry for fragmented questions.
So it sounds like anyone could cock a Xbox, with proper "tool".
Fundamentally this is a solution in search of a problem. It is highly unlikely women and children has been deprived of bow hunting opportunity. This is a transparent excuse to appease Xbox lobby. More bow hunting opportunities are stifled by inability to draw a tag vs weapon limitations.
The United Bowhunters of New Mexico will be vigilant as we fight to keep crossbows out of archery season.
Dyjack, Letters can be sent directly to the Commissioners' official address (listed on the Game and Fish website), but it does also sound like they may open up the question for public comment. If a comment period is opened I will certainly post it to bowsite.
arcticchill, What's the status of United Bowhunters of New Mexico? I see plenty of activity on Facebook, but the original website appears to be defunct.
It was an expense that wasn't paying for itself
As mrelite indicated, the website failed the ROI test. Everything we do as an organization is an investment into our mission statement "The mission of the United Bowhunters of New Mexico is to preserve bowhunting, advance bowhunting interests and to work with other hunting organizations in protecting the future of all hunting for generations to come."
The financial investment to maintain the website exceeded the return the website provided. We had two options, spend more money on the website in an effort to make it more effective or redirect our communication activities through other platforms [Facebook as an example] that cost no money and reach a greater audience.
As for the status of the UBNM, we're doing our best to represent NM bowhunters as one of the only 501c4 [politically active] sportsmen groups in the State. We've recently endorsed Garrett VeneKlasen for State Land Commissioner.
Pat Lyons was probably the most corrupt Land Commissioner in the history of our State! Research "White's Peak Sale" if you aren't already familiar. Lyons is running for the position. Ray Powell [who also recently held the position] is running as well. During his last term Ray wanted to ban ALL hunting of non-game species on State Trust Lands. This would have eliminated our ability to hunt coyotes, feral hogs and even rabbits on State Trust Lands. After a powerful blowback from sportsmen he "only" managed to succeed in eliminating hunting [coyote] contests on State Trust Lands. Ray is quickly gaining popularity among animal rights activist groups.
Garrett on the other hand has promised to open up camping on State Trust Lands! The State Land Commissioner has the full authority to do that. Garrett says he'll do it his first day in office.
If you want to learn more about this specific issue plan to join the UBNM as we host Randy Newberg [Bigfin on Bowsite] in Albuquerque on the evening of August 28th. Mark it on your calendars and stay tuned for more information.
I'm certainly not a fan of Dunn, and I do remember both Lyons and Powell. VeneKlasen will have my support. I've penciled in August 28th. Assuming my wife isn't in labor, I'll plan to attend. Is this a UBNM specific event, or will it be co-hosted with BHA? Either way, I'll see if I can't get a couple of buddies to come too.
While UBNM and BHA often work closely together, the BHA is not able to engage politically. The UBNM organized and is hosting this event, but it is not specific to UBNM. Every supporter of VeneKlasen and those who support access to State Trust Land are welcome to attend.
A ticket is required. I'll post a link for people who wish to purchase a ticket to attend the event.
I wrote a letter that I am getting in tomorrows mail. I personally feel on fighting this but am doing it a different way. I suggest they take the extra 300 antler less elk tags out of Unit 34 and give crossbows their own season like primitive muzzle loader. Either give them August or with muzzle loaders and/or rifles like archery and muzzle loaders in Colorado. I also think with crossbows Bow Hunter Education should be mandatory.
I also have a spreadsheet of the 2017 complete draw odds that list your chance per species based on first choice applicants. I further broke that down into number of tags per weapon choice and number of first choice applicants. Example for elk: 21798 total tags/ 73116 first choice applicants/ 29.81 % chance to get a tag. Rifle 10630 tags/ 39817 applicants/ 26.69% Archery 6859 tags/ 20721 applicants/ 33.10% Muzzle loader 4309 tags/ 12578 applicants/ 34.25%. That is just for first choice applicants and does not take into account 2nd and 3rd choice successful draws. It also does not take into account chances per hunt choice.
Thanks Todd! Time is our most valuable asset and when people like you invest time to get involved it makes a difference.
Another argument against xbows would to use the g&f's decision to push back the MZ season due to the overwhelming success, at least that's how it was explained to me. If that change was made to preserve the herd then to turn around and allow xbows during sept is a complete contradiction.
This will no doubt increase xbows popularity in NM which will lead to more poaching in problem areas (or create new), an issue that we feel is not appropriately handled when the offenders are dealt small fines and slaps on the hand.
A crossbow only has the advantage if pre-cocked and loaded OR waiting to shoot when the animal steps out from behind a tree (1-5 min wait?).
I don't necessarily think that because it is shot rifle-ish that it will make a success rate go up - that would assume everyone who draws an "archery" tag uses a crossbow. The only thing it will do, as mentioned, is decrease the chances of draw even worse than they are now from the influx of perhaps what may be less skilled archers.
A separate Xbow season taken from the firearm pool in certain units would be the best proposal.
The only pool taken from would be the bow hunter pool, muzzle hunters and rifle hunters want them out of their pools as much as we do not want them in ours, a separate x bow season would come from the detriment of bow opportunities not rifle or muzzle
Wander if they will then allow magnification sights during archery to allow scopes for the xbows? Don't think xbows would be very popular if the hunters who prefer rifles can't have thier scopes. Dang it it's going to be a mess.
"A separate Xbow season taken from the firearm pool in CERTAIN units would be the BEST proposal."
Would've used italics and/or underlined, but I don't have that option...
Barrera, Game and Fish is already amending the magnification rule for archery seasons.
Unfortunately this was started a few years ago when x-bow's were added to the any legal weapon pool. Nobody really cared or opposed it. However, give an inch and they will take a mile. Somebody once thought it would be a good idea to give a few ranchers some tags for their trouble. How's that working out now?
It took a bit of time, but I just mailed a letter to each commissioner requesting they do not permit crossbows in the archery seasons. I hope they will at least look at what I sent.
If every Bowhunter did what Muddyboots just did, we would have nothing to worry about.
^^^ I would agree if commissioners had to face the "firing squad" of the electorate every few years...
While we can't effectively "fire" on the commissioners since we don't elect them, we can damned sure "fire" at the Governor about the commissioners.
Governors are traditionally put into office in this state by an electorate that puts hunting of anykind in a distant 5th place at best. Most of NMicos Governors haven't worried too much about upsetting the hunting crowd.
If Steve Pierce runs, I think he'll have a snowballs chance after 12 yrs of Republican "rule" in the Roundhouse...
I would focus on my local (state) reps, not the Gov'r or game commission.
F'n cross bows.... as if draw odds weren't bad enough. It's funny when politicians generally could care less about hunters and their opinions. It's the second highest, behind oil and gas, revenue generator in this state. 5th on priority list. It's number one on mine:)
The link shows the proposed rules, including modifying bows to allow scopes. Still taking public input.
Good luck people, many states have fought this battle and I believe all have lost. the crossgun people and the people that want to sell them speak louder than license buyers.
And yes the success rates go up,check out any state that actually does check in
This would be insane.. I sent an email. Really hope it doesn't pass. I can understand the peeps that help with poor vision, but crossbows should stay mobility impaired.
crossguns have ruined the archery hunting in Ohio on public land, IMO.
Disastrous! If you think poaching is a problem, add a crossbow to the mix and it'll go off the charts. If they are allowed eventually tag #'s will/should drop as archery season success increases, therefore there is no benefit, only detriment.
Crossbows definitely made it more crowded on the public land I bowhunt in Wisconsin. If your a rifle hunter and want to hunt the rut, just get a crossbow.
Exactly dkbs, if you want to hunt the rut AND increase your draw odds... grab a crossbow.