CBA Muzzleloader Survey
Colorado
I received the following email with a link to a survey yesterday. Please let the CBA and CPW know how you feel on this issue.
Dear Dewane ,
2017 CBA Membership Survey - TIME SENSITIVE! First, we apologize - but timing for this is urgent. The Colorado Parks and Wildlife Commission (CPW) meeting is next Thursday, August 10th. Please read the information below and complete the short 12 question survey so we may present the results to the CPW Thursday. We will compile the questions Wednesday.
INTRODUCTION: Due to the shooting death of a young bowhunter by a muzzle loader in 2015, there is some pressure to make changes to improve safety during this combined season. The Colorado Parks and Wildlife (CPW) requested a meeting the with the Colorado Bowhunters Association (CBA) and the Colorado State Muzzle Loaders Association (CSMLA) to discuss the issue. Proposals suggested by the CPW were to:
1. Require archery big game hunters to wear solid fluorescent orange or pink throughout the archery season.
2. Require archery big game hunters to wear solid or camouflage daylight fluorescent orange or pink during the period of overlap between of the archery/muzzleloader seasons.
This includes a minimum of 500 square inches of solid or camouflage orange pink that must be worn as an outer garment above the waist of which must be a head covering visible from all directions.
3. Require fluorescent orange or pink clothing on public land only (with 50 sq inches and head covering requirement).
4. Require marking (within 15 feet of) the tree stand or hunting blind with solid or square camouflage fluorescent orange or pink that shall be a minimum of 500 square inches visible from all directions during muzzleloader/archery season overlap.
5. Separate archery and muzzleloader seasons entirely (no overlap in dates).
6. Separate archery and muzzleloader seasons entirely by year (for example archery in even years and muzzle loading in odd years).
7. Separate archery and muzzleloader seasons entirely by unit.
8. Trade some September archery hunting days for late December archery hunting days to compensate.
9. Wait until the next 5-year Big Game Season Structure (2019) to discuss this topic more thoroughly, potentially including it in a survey Note that the above shooting accident, despite being upsetting and tragic, none of the above proposals would have stopped the accident from occurring.
Click the link below to complete the survey:
https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/DKTFFGH
Sounds like a bunch of terrible options. How about muzzle loader the week following archery.
Those choices are terrible. All but one choice is a limitation or loss of opportunity for bowhunters in a misguided attempt to fix something bowhunters didn't break.
Bowhunters already have the option to not hunt during the muzzleloader overlap and we already have the option to wear orange whenever we want or mark our treestand or blind with orange tape or a marching band if we choose. Why limit it to bowhunters? Certainly the lives of mountain bikers, hikers, rifle season scouters, cowboys, fly fishermen, sheep herders, rock climbers, dog walkers, hunting guides, campers, geocachers, loggers, and anyone else in the woods are just as important? Should they all be required to wear orange or suspend their activities during muzzleloader?
The young man who was killed is tragic. It was also incredibly rare and resulted from extremely reckless actions.
If the State insists on doing something to try and address this, I would prefer the burden be on muzzleloaders. Bowhunters shouldn't need to lose days or be subject to any new rules.
If they mandated that muzzleloader tag holders had to take a separate one day course on target identification and basic safety practices, I wouldn't support it, but at least it would make more sense than having bowhunters shoulder the attempted fix.
I completed the survey and vote, NO CHANGE for the very reasons as Glunt stated. In addition to the CBA Survey, all bowhunters need to let the CPW Commission their thoughts on this issue.
As important, this issue could be introduced as a Legislative Bill and force the CPW into action.
What does the CBA -BOD think is best? It really doesn't matter much how the survey comes out. They proved that a few years ago on the lighted nock issue.
Took my survey, and I agree the options could have been improved.
This whole quiet time thing and its supporters baffle me. It is not needed in Unit 10 for elk when rifles start Oct 1. Population seems to be doing great. Look at Ranching for Wildlife, they get to set their own seasons including rifle blazing in the heat of the rut. No population issues there due to lack of a "quiet period".
The issue was discussed at the sportsman's roundtable, and I have to tell you everyone in the room has bought in to the "quiet time" hook, line and sinker. It baffles me. Double standards are apparently acceptable.
Bill - you might try extending some grace to the the board, my pastor reminded me yesterday we all get it everyday from the lord above.
Took survey, voted no change. I agree with others that their are no really good choices listed. Muzzleloader should start the day after archery season closes. That would still allow for some "quiet time" before rifle. This year there are 19 days between archery and rifle. Throw a 9 day muzzleloader season in there and you still have 10 days of no hunting.
Other western states do fine without the "quiet time" and as grasshopper stated its been getting used here a bit as well so maybe it's not as sacred as it once was.
I was told years ago that it was to let the elk rut with less disturbance to grow populations. Years later when we were at or over population objectives, I was told it was to insure we killed a lot of elk during 1st rifle.
If Muzzleloader elk season moved to the week after archery it would be an amazing tag. Lots of bugling and minimal pressure.
I did not like the survey.. I feel it was sided more for m-l.. Well that the way I feel anyway. Ed
No changes for me. I like the use of the quiet time. Simply for the fact that adding a season to that time will likely increase success rate, while decreasing total opportunity.
Sorry but the entire thing is a nonissue. More hunters are killed in ATV accidents.
ATV abuse is far more Rampant and a much bigger issue than the overlap.
I think WW hit the nail on the head
Not impressed with the survey. I agree with WW, they are going through the motions and will do what they want anyway.
I'm with you fellas.... all of the proposed changes sound pretty terrible and won't help anything IMHO.
If those survey questions are an indication of how the CPW and the commission are leaning; bow hunters are probably about to take a beating and the smoke polers will get to keep the status quo.
The 'quiet time' has a season in 61 as of last year. They took tags form other seasons to 'fund' it
I know some of you aren't big CBA fans but I'd love to see Bowhunters as a group pull together on this, losing days (or weeks)of our season or being forced to wear day-glow colors is a lot bigger issue than lighted nocks.... JMHO
I'll admit I know no more than the next guy on this issue. However, I'll give the CBA the benefit of the doubt here. I believe they are trying to do the right thing and present the CPW with what the CBA members say. It appears based on the ridiculous options given that the CPW is just trying to appease a certain group of constituents and say they looked into it when they have no plans for any change. Does anyone really think that the CBA would vote for any of those proposed options? We are bowhunters right?
JMHO.
I agree that the options were not very good ones. if they really wanted to seperate the seasons why does no one ever consider giving the ML's the week before archery? Let them have August and we take all of September.... JMO
As both an avid bowhunter and ML hunter I'll say that IMO the burden of solving this non problem shouldn't be placed on either group. I voted no change and a general satisfaction with the status quo except for ATV abuse.
PAW is running with their tail between their legs over fear of a legal action if they don't do SOMETHING. They have done this before and, yes defending against litigation is expensive, but capitulating repeatedly is a bad precedent and is also ultimately costly.
I think the "quiet period" is unsupportable.
There seems to be some confusion in some of the posts above as to whose survey this is.
The "Quiet Period" is absolutely unsupportable.
Why is it that all the other states surrounding Colorado keep rifle and muzzle loader hunts out of archery season and start rifle elk hunts right after the archery season? They tend to have better quality with that management scheme.
Colorado's archery seasons are pitiful with all the rifle and muzzle loader's in the field.
I did not answer that question because none of the options were good. The current "status quo" is bad and the rest of the options sucked even worse. WTF?
Can the CBA not get their $#it together to protect and expand bowhunting opportunities in Colorado? Their response continues to be pitiful. SAD!
Bump this back up to the top. I agree that the survey is not very well worded and almost guided as to what they want to see..
Rifle hunters are a bigger factor to me than muzzy guys. Once the high country rifle guys start ripping shells 500 - 1000+ yds across basins at mulies well.. Or units that have one of these rifle "hunts" in them - as a archer you have til rifle opens then the season is essentially over.
I'm listening to the commission meeting now and this is the topic at hand. 337 responses to this survey according to CBA, which is a "great response given this time of year". ~Tom Behunin
Was there any information that came out of the meeting?
I haven't had time to finish listening. The committee was very receptive to the ideas proposed by CBA.
As far as I know, the CBA BOD recommends Status Quo, ie, Leave it like it is, with no changes or regulations that might require Hunter Orange.
The CBA has tried to make changes to the 30 day Early Season in the past, ie, 1. Reduce the numbers of high country, rifle mule deer hunter in Early Sept. 2. Eliminate rifle cow hunts in various GMU during Sept, 3. Move the ML season out of the Early Season and after the archery season. etc, etc,. ONe can complain about this and that issue, but the big picture is what is important to protect and improve bow hunting in Colorado, THE BEST IT CAN WITH WHAT INFLUENCE IT HAS.
But after a lot of debate over the years, and while this changes were considered, none of these changes have been made. The CPW, then the DOW, has stuck to their big game/hunters/ manner of take/ season structure model and management plan and feel no changes need to be made regardless of what OTHER states have done.
If you think the CBA has some magic ability to make changes on their own without a thorough investigation by the CPW and the Commission, you are mistaken. The CBA can only suggest and make recommendations during the input process like any other organization or public entity and some times are recommendation are accepted and many time not.
The CPW model/plan for wildlife surely involves many steps and if the CPW only had to deal with the wildlife their job would be "fun and exciting" but when you interject different manners of take, season structure, license allocations, hunting and non hunting organizations, all wanting a bigger piece of the pie, the JOB get more complicated.
Being a life member of the CBA, served on the Board for 7 years, and was the CBA DOW Liaison for 6, I have a good understanding of the process and the challenges of both organizations, be it the CBA or the CPW. The CBA can only try to do its best with the "power" it has and remember, the CBA is a member organization and believes in the democratic process to move its agenda forward.
my best, Paul
CBA recommended a split season closing during the current ML season then reopening and ending October 1st. Tom said it would add a few days on average to the total archery season and archery hunters still get 4 weekends (We actually get 5).
I need to look at a calendar but in my head I'm not getting the math right. I think it would need to go longer to make up for he 9 lost days and add some extra. We currently get 5 weekends not 4.
My audio wasn't streaming well so I may have missed something.
This year there are 7 days left of archery season after ML. If we were closed for the 9 day ML season and we add those 9 days to the back of the season that would put us at October 3rd and to get our 5 weekends it would need to go to October 8th?
1. Sorry I was not aware of the CBA's recommendation of a split season. Did not know any member was questioned or notified. I am sure this will be forwarded to the next 5 year Big Game season structure.
Glunt, you are correct to maintain the 5 week ends the archery season would have to be extended through Oct 8, per this year's calendar.
Splitting the seasons would end the practice of having friends and or family members, to hunt together or at least stay in the same camp, ie, bow and ML. This was a positive point in the last CBA survey to not split the season but to "work around" the ML season.
If the season was reduced to only 4 week ends, and not 5, that will surely enrage those week end hunters. which might make up the majority of resident bow hunters.
I can not remember what % of bow hunter do not hunt during the Early ML rifle season, or, reduce their time in the field during that same time period.
Hard to put my mind around any change since we have been dealing with the same season for a long time. Hope for the best, Paul
The CBA was asked to submit a formal proposal. Hopefully the numbers are ironed out. I have to think Tom mis-spoke or they ran the numbers fast and just never actually looked at a calendar.
I applied the proposed change to the last few years and the next couple years and it results in under 30 days (current season is always 30 days) and has less weekends.
My preference is no change. I would be open to the proposal if we kept 5 weekends and got a few extra days out of the deal. With the corrected math that puts it too far into the quiet period and would likely not have support from the Commission
The danger in offering up a split season is it can become two separate seasons real fast. We live in a state that has 4 to 6 or more very short separate rifle seasons, and a cash strapped CPW. 10 years from now, when the early season has 80,000 hunters - you will get to choose if you want the early archery season or the late season west of I-25.
When this proposal gets made, it is only going to make sense to them because they think in multiple short seasons. It makes all the sense in the world to them and the no one else believes we should have a 30 day season. I can't believe how many rifle hunters have said to me, "why do bowhunters deserve a 30 day season?" I always respond, why are you ok with a 5 day season, what the hell happened?
10 years from now, who is going to say what the hell happened?
Look at the New Mexico archery seasons. They did exactly that.
Be careful what you wish for, and think long term. I am fine with status quo.
This would be a VERY BAD idea. Camel's nose under the tent toward making a true split archery season as in NM, like Grasshopper said. Outfitters will be fine with this because they have hunters for a week at a time. It would actually give them an extra week of revenue (archery - ML - archery). Where this would really hurt is with resident DIY hunters who primarily hunt weekends with one 9 day (week plus two weekends) hunt. I AM ADAMANTLY OPPOSED TO THIS SORT OF SPLIT unless we can be guaranteed a 30 day archery opportunity with five weekends.
Which, of course, we know cannot be guaranteed beyond a 5 year season block. Resident DIY hunters have been pushed to the back of the bus lately. Let's not let it happen again.
Something else interesting is that the CPW staff when outlining the issue for the board described bowhunting as a primitive season and our length of season along with being timed with the elk rut was due specifically to the difficulty of bowhunting.
I agree with Jaq's sentiments not a good idea at all and have to point out as a high country deer hunter this "split" would effectively end the deer season at the start of rifle/muzzy seasons... Interesting that is the line the cba decided was best.. While not a good idea opening the season a week earlier AND ending a week later to give archers 6 weekends on most years might be worth loosing what is one of the best weeks of archery season.
This also does not seem like a root archery problem but a root muzzy problem as the conflicts are coming from the muzzy and not the archery community.. Anyone know what is the number of archers to muzzy hunters? Seems like it might be reasonable to displace the smallest amount of hunters in any "solution"....
Yep another way that the CPW is sticking it to resident diy hunters. I am starting to get the feeling they dont like us to much at all.
Glunt where did you hear or see that CBA recommended a split season? CBA website says the defeated a split season. FYI, I have not support CBA sense the whole lighted nock issue. I don't even use them, but when members overwhelming support them and they decided not too, they lost my support.
I listened to the last Commission meeting. At link
You can listen to the meeting at this youtube link.
Another thing to keep in mind about any season discussions is bowhunters, and muzzleloaders to some extent frequently get blamed for pushing animals into private land refuges, and an inability to obtain harvest objectives. Further, rifle season hunters who outnumber bowhunters are dissatisfied if game is harbored on private. True or not, it leads to a discussion of "why is the bowseason 30 days long, it is pushing animals". Human nature is when your dissatisfied, someone must be blamed and If I didn't see any animals bowhunters season length is an easy target. If the end of archery seasons becomes Oct 3rd or so....I'd expect this complaint to increase, and the 30 days season to be further attacked.
If you think about unintended consequences of the proposal - it could be more GMU's moving from OTC to limited due to the above "movement accusation" and a less than 30 day season.
Thanks I will listen. Does CBA even care about their members and or membership? I will listen, if they are recommend split that is the final straw for me and I will not support them in anyway going forward!
Any idea about time to listen?
Look at the agenda, and guess from there. With my browser, I found it easier to download and use media player as chrome didn't offer me a fast forward function for some reason.
About the 2:00:00 mark on the video.
I found it. I have nothing positive and or nice to say. The CBA is a JOKE!!!! It sucks that they speak for so many of us. What is our options to get our voices heard now?
I know I'm not a very sharp guy but the CBA's math seems to be a little off. He says their proposal gives bowhunters an added 3-4 days of hunting, but counting days on the calendar for his example, it cuts us by 2 days - that's a 5-6 day difference! I thought a primary mission of the CBA was "to protect, improve and increase the opportunities for hunting with the hand held, hand drawn bow", not decrease them.
What a joke!
Wow, interesting testimony. My pastor last Sunday told me I get grace every day, so I am going to extend some to Tom and the CBA even though I disagree with the proposal. I will write the CBA board, and the wildlife commission suggesting status quo.
I have sent a message to the CBA Chair and to Tom, to clarify the CBA's recommendation and as to why and to see if the "math" was done. I also want to speak with the CPW rep for the ML,/bow hunter, stakeholder group to get her oversight.
I have learned to never jump to conclusions without finding more info so I would recommend that to others to wait until the final report is in. my best, Paul
Let's hope the final report is significantly different than what was proposed, and almost rushed to approve at the meeting. Thankfully someone had the good sense to recommend that the process work it's way rather than approving what Tom requested. That proposal is a DISASTER.
This Behunin guy needs to be removed as the rep for CBA. His math doesn't add up. His proposal actually ends in a net loss of days and weekends for the archery season. How can you have someone representing a group on such a serious topic, that actually lessens your hunting opportunity.
Let's not forget years ago when the private land hunting licesne allocations were being discussed, in one standing he gave a 20 minute speech on why he wants more non-resident tags (as a landowner), then a 2 minute speech in opposition to it as the CBA rep.
He doesn't know the facts!
At the end of the meeting Tom announces he will be stepping down as the CBA rep. Regardless of anyone's opinion on his performance as liaison, he is dealing with some stuff thats bigger than that and could use some of that grace Steve mentioned.
Didn't the same guy provide the vote for the CBA stating we were in favor of more Landowner Vouchers being taken from the pool of available tags making there less tags to draw?
I'm with Paul and will wait until official word on the actual proposal. I'd also like to see the CBA poll results. I can't imagine that the majority of CBA members recommended this option? Status quo seemed like the only logical option if upholding the CBA Mission statement?
To All , For the Bowhunters in Colorado, The CBA has been WORKING with the Colorado Parks and Wildlife and Muzzleloader Since April to come with a solution to the muzzleloader-archery over-lap in May we had a meeting with CPW and Muzzleloaders to come up with a Solution , At the meeting we were told that family of the young man was thinking of taking this Issue to Legislature .Taking this Issue out of hands, much Like the Spring Bear 1996. At the Meeting in May all groups CPW,CBA, and Muzzleloaders. SAID- We would like the Season Dates KEPED the Same! See my Report. April and May and June and July, to Bad you are not a CBA MEMBER! Since April Thru August this Issue been on the Agenda for Board of Directors! See meeting Minutes. To bad you are Not a CBA Member! The Board of the CBA put a Survey to it's Members in August about this Issue, and had 337 responses. To bad you are not a CBA MEMBER! At the Board meeting of we all said like to keep the Season the Same! Plan A. Plan B, But the Board had another Idea. If the Archery Season started this Year! The Archery would start ,August 26th run till September 8th Start Muzzleloading season the 9th and end September 17th which is No Change! Start the Archery Season September18th to Oct 3rd note in my report I said the First. Sorry . Also the Very Clear the Archery is one Season. Requiring ONLY ONE TAG! I went the commissioner August 10th in Trinidad. Jody Kennedy updated the Commission on the Archery/ Muzzleloader Stakeholder Outreach. Hear Audio since you were not THEIR! Note! NO OTHER SPORTSMAN GROUP ATTENDED THE MEETING! BUT CBA WAS THEIR! Jody talked to Commission saying at the TIME of the meetings the CPW , CBA and muzzleloaders said we just keep the season the Same! But the CBA has Idea to this ISSUE! After reading 337 E-mails I gave My Report on this Issue! I WENT TO BED AT 3:55 after I FINISED MY REPORT! in the MORNING! I Gave my Report to the to the COMMISSION! AFTER I GAVE MY REPORT, CHAIR PRIBL THANKED THE CBA AND MY SELF FOR ATTENDING ALL COMMISSERS MEETINGS. ALSO HE THANKED CBA FOR ALL HARD WE PUT INTO THIS ISSUE! AND FORWARD THINKING IT'S MEMBERS HAVE! ONE LAST I AM PROUD TO BE A CBA MEMBER! AND TO SERVE AS THE CBA LAISON TO COLORADO PARKS AND WILDLIFE! WHICH I HAVE DONE OVER 7 YEARS! Tom BEHUNIN!
I read some comments about the cba poll on face booger it was mind boggling to me after reading those it wouldnt suprise me if the poll really did go that way.....
I don't remember a split season being an option in the survey.
You are correct what i should have wrote is it wouldnt suprise me if it went against the wishes pf pretty much everyone here.
So, it is not about "going against the wishes of pretty much everyone here" or even going against the wishes of the CBA members that took the time to respond to the survey. It is trying to solve the issue and coming up with a SOLUTION, a solution that will not involve the State Legislature If is comes to that. What are the odds that will happen? 50/50, 30/70. I do not know but it is a possibility ,a possibility that neither the CBA or the CPW wants to happen.
The possible SOLUTION not to have bow hunters wear Orange,( voted by the majority of the membership in the recent survey and many on this thread), and as presented by Tom and the CBA BOD, and then to also maintain the 30 day archery season, but allow no bow hunting during the ML season, and then continue and extend the bow hunting season to Oct 2, thus maintaining the current number of 30 day. This is a POSSIBLE solution/recommendation them MIGHT move forward but then at the same time, might not.
What are the pros and cons of this proposed solution/season if such a proposal was adopted? Well:
1. One big pro is that by extending the season more into the rut, this might give a bow hunter a better chance for a kill and more vocal action. A con to this might be that if bow hunter success goes above the long term average, of 11- 15%, the CPW might seem fit to develop more limited units to combat that increase in bow hunter harvest by increasing the OTC units to more Limited draw unit. Yes, I know there is a system to elect an OTC to Limited Unit, or vise-versa by the general public, and out of the hands of the CPW, but that could change. Or if the % kill increases in existing Limited units, there might be a reduction of bow elk tags to stabilize the situation.
2. Currently there are five weekend during the current 30 day season. If the Solution is passed and only 30 days are awarded, then there will only be 4 weekends for the weekend hunter. To have 5 weekends, the Solution needs to be extended to Oct 8 but that move would add 5 more days to the 30 days seson. I doubt the CPW manager/.biologists, would recommend this as it moves too far into the Quite Time, a period they believe needs protection from a major hunting season. And then to increase the Current 30 day season to 35. Just think of the heat the CPW/Commission would receive from the rifle , ML groups that only have 5-9 days to hunt elk.
Here is the RISK if the we stick to the NO CHANGE/STATUS QUO, as I see it. If the family of the young bow hunter, killed by the ML, hunter does see a change or that the CPW Commission did not do it's due diligence, to have bow hunters wear Orange during the ML/bow hunter overlap, as they have requested the CPW Commission to do so through a Public Issues Petition, there is a VERY good/fair chance they will take this issue to the State Legislature and out of the hands of the CPW Commission. If this gets into the hands of the Legislature who knows where it will go and how far. Again, the CPW or the CBA would not want it to go that far. How far might it go? How about the regulation that states that bow hunters must wear Hunter Orange during all rifle, ML, bowhunter, over lap seasons. This might include, high country rifle deer seasons in Sept, it might include rife goat and sheep seasons, it might include the ML, bow hunter over lap deer season on the eastern plains on Oct and Nov. and also the Private Land Only elk tag during Sept. How about during the overlap with rifle bear hunters in Sept. In other words, bow hunter would be wearing Orange for most of all seasons if the Legislature get involved in this.
So there is a lot to think about here as an Issue. The issue is not that the CBA BOD is not doing anything or going against the members or even those here on Bowsite. The issue is , what RISK are YOU willing to take that, 1. the family will just go away or 2, the State Legislature will take the issue from the CPW and we end up with Orange during the ML early season or maybe all overlaps.
So lets not jump to conclusions as I know the CBA BOD and the CPW are working on this now and in the near future and working towards Status Quo,ie, no change to the current season structure..
Risks and choices, it is up to you. Hope this helps. My best, Paul
T3 , Your math still doesn't hold up! Ending on October 3rd is still only a 30 day season, not the 4 extra days you spoke of at the meeting. WHERE ARE THE 4 EXTRA DAYS??? This is still a net loss because bowhunters only get 4 weekends instead of 5.
A SPLIT SEASON WAS NEVER PART OF THE SURVEY. As far as too bad folks are not CBA members, with the kind of representation on this and the landowner voucher issues, I can see why folks choose not to be members!
Not only does the split season reduce weekends for locals it also makes it difficult for nonresidents who want to hunt more than 14 days.
Too all: Which hunting group was responsible for the tragic killing? The bowhunters or ML'ers? Why are ML'S unscathed in this process. Move the ML'S to end of bow season like other states do
Tom, get some rest, you deserve it. I heard your resigning, thanks for the service we will be pulling for a speedy recovery.
The next board meeting is the first Friday in October, still plenty of time to REBOOT this as the wheels of government are SLOW. I spoke to the chairman and offered to help as needed. I think I have a good working relationship with many CPW staff members, and have met and spoken with most all of the commissioners.
It appears the CBA board is in need of a CPW liason. I can help a bit but would encourage everyone on this site to consider applying.
Thank God season is dam near here, good luck to everyone.
Remember, we live in a state where the law says you don't have to wear a helmet on a motorcycle. I say take the risk with status quo.
Sorry Stix, Have Stage 4 cancer that has moved to every Part of Body, Including Brain, Bones, Lungs and sometimes I do not add Right! Sorry T-3.
To all In may 5th Doctor told me and Wife I had about 3 to 5 months to live. It's been 4 months now! Just trying keep alive! Thanks T-3
Also the Bowhunters will have 4 weekends to Archery hunt , No Muzzleloaders,only 3 weekends Now T-3
Tom, thank you for your service, and so sorry to hear about the progression. Prayers for you and your family.
Question - we are talking about October 2 or 3 for archery end date. The season starts on the last Saturday in August. When that date falls on the 30th or 31st, the season is pushed up to the 7th or 8th, which is only 5 days before start of rifle elk season. Rifle hunters will go nuts if this happens. If kill stats for first rifle drop, guess who gets the blame, and who gets reduced seasons. Was there any consideration given to this conflict?
I could see them easily bumping us back into the third Saturday of August for a start date to preserve the mythical "quiet time", which would be great for deer hunters but would totally suck for elk hunters.
We need to hold firm with status quo and make a strong case to the legislature if it gets that far. We have all the data. It works. It is still the safest sport in the state. Anyone who wants to wear orange can do it. MLs can still remove their orange when they hit the timber. This is a classic case of throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
Prayers are with you T3. Don't sweat this issue or any of the other small stuff.
Plan C- Start the Muzzle loading Season on August 26th give Them there 9 days till the 3rd of September, Then Start the Archery Season the 4th and Give us Archery are 30 day SEASON. till Oct 3rd and Give the Elk 10 days to Pro create! Let take A Vote, I vote For Plan- C,C,C, C Thanks Tom J Behunin- T-3
Plan D: Muzzleloader season after current archery. Far less ml's to affect elk prior to 1st rifle.
T3: Thank you for continuing your service during this trying time for you and your family. I was unaware of your ongoing health issues and apologize to you and forum members for my rough remarks.
T-3, how will plan C go over with the muzzle loader guys? They seem to be the favored ones in this nonissue. This should not even be a discussion. If a person goes out when the lead is flying and chooses not to wear orange, it is on them. There are even signs up in some areas of Colorado during hunting season warning hikers to wear orange due to it being hunting season. I feel for the kid and his parents, but I also get so tired of everything getting wrecked because of one incident which could of been prevented. This is all on the guy who shot the kid (a muzzle loader hunter) and each of us who choose to not orange up when we know the lead will be flying. Bow hunters will not come out better on this.
Stix , Why should we reward the Muzzleloaders the Very best time of the Year to hunt Elk! The Archery hunters deserve this Time! Thanks T-3
Stix, One of the selling points I lobbied for at the commission was to let the Elk have a better Quiet Time between Seasons. We all know what happens to Elk when a Muzzleloader OFF! Then end up in next county or Drive Further in The Woods. Thanks T-3
Stix putting his foot in mouth how's it taste
Peco, Personally I do not care what the Muzzleloader Think! In 7 plus years as Laison for the CBA. The Muzzleloaders have- MAY- BE and I say MAY-BE have been at the Commission Meeting, Only 1 Time! In 7 plus Years In all our Proposals the Muzzleloader are still getting a 9 Day Season! We allowed them In our Archery Season 40 years ago! I WILL NOT LET THEM {muzzleloaders} DICTATE TO US WHAT SEASON THEY WANT!!!! Thank you T-3
In a fantasy world, sure. But putting MLs into the woods for 9 days just a week before first rifle elk season will happen about the time they open a unicorn season.
+1 PECO How does August 19- September 18 sound for archery season? Because that's where we're headed if we keep talking about a "compromise" to separate out MLs from "our" season and still keep 30 days.
Peco as a ml'er and bow hunter plan c sounds good to me as a ml'er but horrible as a bowhunter. Do we really want guys with guns chasing the elk that aint been bothered since november? Thats why i hunt opening weekend of archery the elk that aint seen the pressure are easier to hunt. With a ml'er id never make it past opening morning. I also think that making the ml season 7 days instead of 9 is a better idea than moving archery to the 8th to get 5 weekends
Plan "E" get rid of first rifle and give it to the muzzle loaders. If bow hunters don't fill their tag, we get to hunt December.
To All, Remember Guys the Muzzleloaders are already 100% Draw-only. Thanks T-3
Also a consideration is wearing orange hat only during overlap. I know guys that do this as a safety concern anyway and it hasn't degraded their experience AND they have killed elk/deer with trad equipment wearing hats at less than 20 yards. Use orange mesh hats
Thanks for all your efforts Tom.
Thank You, Mark, Lou, Paul. and so my More! Thanks T-3.
Tom, If we do have to accept a change to the current season structure the suggestion that you briefed the commission on sounds as good as anything (With even a slight chance of passing) that I can think of.
Thank you!
Spookinelk- I love your handle, I think the Commission would really consider this Proposal, Heaven forbid if this ever went Legislators who knows were this could go. All this does is to Give the Commission arrows in the Quiver to say we are working on a Solution to this Issue. Like Plan B or C. The survey that CBA sent out this month has almost 400 response as of now. The overwhelming Plan is {A} is to keep the Status Quo! We here are Membership! We as CBA Board all ready Knew this even before we even sent out the Survey! We the Board voted August 4th. on the Issue. But we also have Plan B. That I presented to Commission. And we also have Plan C. Both would BENEFIT ARCHERY HUNTERS THE MOST! The Commission, CPW, and CBA, DONOT Have to Spend any More Time or Money on this ISSUE! Thank You. T-3
T3, that's a good point... Why reward the ml's with a better time of year.
1st choice status quo
2nd choice stays quo w/orange cap only during ml overlap
3rd choice: Your option C (ml at before archery)
I think CBA board dropped the ball on the split season.
Sorry,WE Can not Please ever ONE. Thanks T-3
Yes, agreed, but my personal opinion is the split season pleased no one. Anyways, thanks for your service on this. You unfortunately are in a position that takes the brunt of peoples opinions and you have to make a stand at some point.
Yes, agreed, but my personal opinion is the split season pleased no one. Anyways, thanks for your service on this. You unfortunately are in a position that takes the brunt of peoples opinions and you have to make a stand at some point.
T3,
Thanks for posting the current consensus from the CBA survey. Thanks for your service to us.
I haven't seen any proposed change that has a chance to be approved that I support. Starting archery later would be fine for elk but terrible for chasing high country muleys. Splitting the season ends up with less weekend days and does set up a ready-made structure for separate 2 week seasons in the future. Bowhunters wearing orange during muzzleloader then raises the question why not during fall rifle bear, early rifle elk, early high country rifle mule deer, etc. Moving muzzleloader to after archery either means they lose having 2 weekends in their season or the season goes too far into October.
We have the option to not hunt during muzzleloader if we choose and we have the option to wear orange already. I don't think I can support putting the burden of any change on bowhunters since we aren't responsible for any of the real or perceived risk with the overlap.
I realize supporting no change may result in some unwanted change through the legislature.
I don't seek a solution since I don't see it as the problem some do but maybe a solution that doesn't change seasons or rules could be found if we have to have one. Maybe a reminder to all muzzleloaders with their tag or some other outreach to raise awareness. Obviously the tragic incident required a disregard for the basics of safe hunting. Pretty hard to make any rule that can eliminate all the risk from a person being that negligent.
I agree Glunt, it sucks being forced into making a compromise based on one tragic incident to keep it from going to our leftist legislators.
It would be interesting to make the rifle guys compromise on their season to try and eliminate the inherent risk due to the few guys that have gotten shot during rifle season. How would they do that?
It's a risk everyone takes just like driving a car. It's a shame that us bowhunters have to chose options on this non-issue for fear of our liberal, clueless, legislators opinion but it's reality.
"Do nothing" is a valid option, you always see that as a CPW alternative. Do nothing, would be a vote for status quo. I'm ok with it, the odds of anyone getting a bill passed are low, but it is an election year and folks do look for headlines, including the animal welfare caucus folks
To ALL At the Next Commissionors - Meeting in Steamboat Springs I be there to Recommend Plan A -Which the CBA and Board of Directors and Membership has Done a SURYEY over 400 Results! Is to Keep the STATUS QUO! But also they Have-- Plan B and C . To Bad- they ALWAYS - ALWAYS -Have the ISSUES come up during ARCHERY SEASON! - Thanks for YOUR Input! The CBA always Fighting FOR are BOWHUNTING RIGHTS! , WHEN they Try to Carve Up the PIECE PIE!!! the ARCHERY HUNTERS are going to get- THE VERY BEST PIECE OF IT! WHEN YOU ASK First! Thanks, I'm going to Scouting Today for Moose and Elk. Thanks T-3
Tom, the next CBA board meeting is in October. I would prefer the membership get a chance to chew on this and have the opportunity to attend the CBA board meeting before any further discussion occurs before the commission. This needs to slow down a bit, I, most of the membership, and I am sure the board are going hunting for the next month.
You have done so much, please take your mind off this thing and go spend time with family and friends.
Thanks again
If the issue is appeasing one family to keep them from making this a legislative issue. What if the idea of adding more verbage in the hunting brochure and possibly sent out with tags in the mail or require bow hunters and muzzleloaders to watch a short video in order to purchase tag about the benefits of wearing orange during combine seasons. Any for muzzleloaders to know bowhunters are out there. That encourages but does not require orange to be worn by archers. Maybe add more of a emphasis on the issue during both bowhunter and general hunter education class.
Maybe educational push would be enough to appease the one family that's making this an issue?
It would be a minor pain in the ass but less so than any of the other alternatives suggested.
It would be a major pain in the ass for me to watch a video every time I buy a tag. The logistics of it would be horrific. Where do you watch the video, at the sporting goods counter in Wal Mart? Online is fine, but everyone is not online.
It could be marked on file once you watched. Much like you have verified your hunter ed.
Exactly, but most of us have already taken hunter safety. There will always be jackasses sound shooting, it's worse during turkey season. It is interesting that in California, no orange is required for any season. I honestly believe it is because the libs out there running things want hunters to shoot each other.
The point is government has made all kinds of laws that has no teeth and accomplish nothing other than to make somebody feel good.
This is one of those time that we need one of those laws. That really doesn't do anything but make someone feel good .
I just reread the Newspaper articles concerning this death caused by the ML elk hunter last year in Mesa county. This youth was bow hunting with his father at the time and I would expect, his father was mentoring the youth to some extent. And both, at least the father should have realized that, there is always a risk in hunting regardless of manner of take, be it bow, ML or high powered rifle. Both should have had knowledge that, Hunter Orange was not mandatory BUT as stated in the Big Game Brochure, and most likely, during the Hunter Ed Class, ,Hunter Orange, :While not mandatory, "but should be considered wearing it to increase safety while in the field".
1. In January, Pohto (the ML hunter) entered a guilty plea to felony manslaughter, acknowledging he "recklessly" caused the boys death, Pohto said he a taken a "SOUND SHOT" where he didn't see his target, at what he thought was a deer but in fact it was the young bow hunter which he killed.
So the ML did not id his target as an deer or a human, took the sound shot, and killed the bow hunter. I doubt if HUNTER ORANGE even came into play since he never clearly saw the target and then shot.
the paper reports "Additionally, the parents have committed themselves to promoting hunting safety and are working to separate ML and the archery season from each other to prevent another tragedy like this their own."
"Separate ML and archery seasons".????? Interesting. Read the following and if this family is successful, these following seasons might see a change, either separating out the bow hunters or making all bow hunter wear hunter orange anytime there is a rifle-ML/bow season overlap.
I only hope this issue stays within the authority of the CPW Commission and not the state Legislature.
1. During the 30 day archery season in Sept, there are 5-6,000 high powered rifle bear hunters.
2. During the first few weeks of the 30 archery season there are a few hundred high powered rifle hunters hunting mule deer near and above tree line in various game management units.
3, During the 30 archer season there are some rifle goat and sheep hunters where no one is required to wear hunter orange, the rifle hunter or the bow hunter.
4, During Sept, there are private land only high powered rifle elk hunts
5. Eastern Plains deer hunting, has an over lap of ML and bow deer season
6. There are or has been a few GMU on public land that allowed high powered rifle cow elk to be hunting during Sept and the bow season.
7. the Over lap of Moose archery and ML season
I know the CPW and the CBA would like to solve this issue internally but what the actual outcome might be is anyone's guess it this time.
my best, Paul
Muzzleloader is 100% draw and next year all limited licenses require on line applications so all muzzleloaders will be on line at some point. I don't support anything being required of bowhunters.
Hello Grasshopper, I will or Somebody will be from the CBA to and will Address this Issue! The CBA will be at the Commissioners MEETING! This September 7th-8th, This Issue will not DIE! And we CAN NOT and SAY CAN NOT IGNORE This Issue ! The Process has Started.... Just like the Crossbow Issue and Sheep Issue were put REST in the September meetings. And the Commissioners will be VOTING on This Issue. The CBA was THERE for BOTH Issues! Sorry Lou we did not the Ball! There was 3 Past and Present CBA Liaisons to Represent the CBA on Crossbow Issue! Which WAS Voted Down 11to1 All of the Past and Present Liaison interrupted there Bow hunting season to ATTEND! Bob Radocy and Paul Navarre, Both had a Elk hunts in Colorado planed and I had a Brown Bear hunt in Alaska Planed and Flew to Alaska 8:00 that evening! Thanks T-3
Tom, I appreciate your great work and never said you dropped the ball on this. You must be confusing me with someone else. I just have a big problem with any sort of split season and am still confused as to what the official CBA position is, and next steps. I emailed Roger about it this morning but haven't heard or seen anything.
I also believe the survey was poorly constructed, and if multiple split season options were under consideration those options should have been clearly articulated.
I am also concerned that the CBA has not sent out a blast email to members explaining what happened and what the CBA position is. The Board needs to get ahead of the perception and make the facts and position and rationale known.
That said, I do appreciate all of your dedication and efforts, ESPECIALLY considering the challenges you're facing. Many, many thanks.
Thanks Jaquomo, Mike Yeary has sent a Message tonight to the Board, Stating the CBA Position and results to Survey. Plan A is first and only option. Give me a call Jaquomo . I agree with you on a E-mail Blast. As soon as possible but WE have a Lot on the Board , already Bow Hunting - Antelope and getting ready Elk and Deer. I was up Scouting today for Elk and Moose. Like I said before these Issue come at The Very worst Time of Year! Good Hunting to All!. Be Safe! And God Bless everyone for YOUR PRAYERS , That is What keeps Me Going. Thanks T-3
Thanks Jaquomo, Mike Yeary has sent a Message tonight to the Board, Stating the CBA Position and results to Survey. Plan A is first and only option. Give me a call Jaquomo . I agree with you on a E-mail Blast. As soon as possible but WE have a Lot on the Board , already Bow Hunting - Antelope and getting ready Elk and Deer. I was up Scouting today for Elk and Moose. Like I said before these Issue come at The Very worst Time of Year! Good Hunting to All!. Be Safe! And God Bless everyone for YOUR PRAYERS , That is What keeps Me Going. Thanks T-3
Per the CBA Board of Directors:
The CBA Board would like to provide an update to our members regarding the discussions pertaining to the archery/muzzlelader overlap in seasons. The survey of our members reflected that the majority of you favored keeping things as they are now, although we had a wide variety of opinions. The Board consensus is to support the current status of the seasons. It remains to be seen if that position is suitable to the Parks and Wildlife Commission. Several options have been openly discussed such as wearing blaze orange/pink during the overlap of the muzzleloader and archery seasons, and the possibility of splitting the archery season into two segments with the muzzleloader season in between. No changes have been officially proposed at this time. The one concept that seems to have the strongest support is not to have a reduction in archery season days. The CBA Board is totally supportive of this concept. We do not want to lose any bowhunting opportunity as is reflected in our Mission Statement. As this process proceeds we may need to consider some other alternatives that may be brought forward by the Parks and Wildlife Commission. We will keep our membership informed of what may be proposed in the future. In closing, please rest assured that the CBA is vigilant in keeping track of this issue. Thank you all for your support for the CBA and Colorado bowhunting.
Weighing in as one whom has hunted all three manners of take (Archery/Muzzle/Rifle), yet noting most years I hunt rifle, the big picture is that the current September season structure and regulations work reasonably well for both both archery and muzzle. Muzzle, 100% limited, would love to have the 3rd week in September, but it is not likely to happen. Neither is archery hunting to have the very last days of September, much less October. With 50 years of hunting Colorado I see the 70,000-80,000 or so hunters overall that hunt September a new decade phenon that moves game significantly to private and remote public lands before any rifle hunts. It is a reality. The big question looking at the future landscape is how many hunters will the resource absorb, much less all manners of take, in September. Also count me in for protecting the quiet period, for the resource's sake. Some time in the future there could well be pressure for all archery to go fully limited, (3 times the # of ML), so please keep the big picture in mind, and be glad for the current season structure of archery. Rifle hunters live with the current season structure, even though I still opine for the old days when we had 3 weekends in 60s and 70s. Guys, the wisdom is to hit the sweet spot for archery and advocate for keeping 'status quo'. It could change for the worse for archery.
